{"error":false,"id":["152462"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152462,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152462","日期":"2024-05-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-16","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":16,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-13T12:16:40+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-13T12:26:07+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:27","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e173467c9ba08646f3868ab4a2946638eec232d94006c6d412c4d7cb136f02ab460f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:16:40 - 12:26:07","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)國民黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n(一)委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王育敏等18人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱若華等20人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【一、(三)及(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【三、(四)案：如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【討論事項綜合詢答】\n【5月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1087,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時16分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請勞動部部長，還有消防署署長。"],["主席：好，請許部長跟蕭署長。"],["許部長銘春：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好，署長好。因為接下來有關於消防員組工會的事情，可能是勞動部跟消防署的權責，都有一些觀點跟立場必須表達，所以請兩位一起上來。我先請教一下消防署署長，前兩天有人針對台灣民眾黨黨團提案支持消防員組工會這個事情，拿了一個說帖到我的服務處來，說因為消防署的立場是不贊成消防員組工會，所以要求我們撤回提案，這件事情是消防署授意的嗎？怎麼會有人做這種事？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，感謝委員關心，這個部分我們有跟縣市瞭解，有18個縣市不同意入工會，有1個縣市同意入工會，但是限制罷工權，有3個機關沒有回應，是採取保留的態度。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，你沒有回答我的問題。"],["蕭署長煥章：我想這是整體性的……"],["黃委員國昌：這是消防署授意的嗎？這是消防署授意的嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們跟縣市溝通……"],["黃委員國昌：這是消防署授意的嗎？請你回答我的問題。"],["蕭署長煥章：看看怎麼跟委員報告。我們跟縣市……"],["黃委員國昌：這個是消防署授意的嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們是跟縣市溝通，請縣市跟委員……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，你沒有回答問題。有人拿著消防署的說帖到我地方的服務處來，我們支持消防員組工會，結果消防署……我不曉得是官很大嗎？我第一次聽到有部會要求立法委員撤回提案，署長，你會不會覺得太誇張？還是你也支持這樣做？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們尊重委員的權責。"],["黃委員國昌：你們有尊重委員的權責嗎？拿著一個說帖來，建請委員撤回修正提案，這是不是消防署的說帖？還是有人偽造、變造文書，說清楚啊！"],["蕭署長煥章：撤回是我們做得不好，但是我們必須讓縣市能夠使委員適時地瞭解……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你也同意嘛！消防署要求委員撤回提案非常不妥，對不對？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，這我們會調整。"],["黃委員國昌：消防署可以做這種事，要求委員撤回提案嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：不可能要求啦！怎麼可能……"],["黃委員國昌：白紙黑字就這樣寫啦！"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["黃委員國昌：消防署可以這樣幹嗎？署長，請表示意見，不要站在那邊不講話。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，剛剛跟委員報告，這個文字是不妥，我們必須尊重委員的意見來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，不妥，我們繼續看，消防員組工會這一件事情，基層的消防弟兄喊了非常久。如果現行制度下，我們在第一線冒險犯難的消防弟兄覺得他們可以獲得應有的保障，而不是每次大火以後，我看到消防員流著眼淚在送他們那些本來一起工作、一起冒險犯難的弟兄，今天這個訴求就不會浮上水面，也不會得到那麼多人民的支持。從各國的比較法制當中，有非常多國家是支持也贊成消防員可以組工會。當然，我們目前的政府是相對保守的，不贊成消防員組工會，我的理解有沒有錯誤？署長。"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，我們目前朝向幾個部分的進展是不是方便跟委員做報告？"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，請您針對問題回答就好了。現在的政府支不支持消防員組工會？"],["蕭署長煥章：組工會是一個方式，組協會也是一個方式，目前……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們支不支持他們組工會？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們現在是朝向組協會的方式來做處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，這樣的立場是目前、520以前舊政府的立場，沒有錯嘛！對吧？"],["蕭署長煥章：這整個執行的方向和執行的措施……"],["黃委員國昌：在520以前、目前陳建仁內閣是不贊成消防員組工會，沒有錯嘛？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們朝向更廣的方式來處理消防員的職業安全問題。"],["黃委員國昌：不管你用什麼樣的形容詞來形容，你「不贊成消防員組工會」這幾個字就講不出來嘛！身為署長，你不贊成就不贊成嘛！大聲地講，這就是你的政策立場嘛！現在我的問題很簡單，對於不贊成消防員組工會的這個政策立場，新的內閣、新的政府也支持嗎？請問署長！"],["蕭署長煥章：目前是這個方向，我們正在努力之中。"],["黃委員國昌：我的意思是新的政府、新的內閣支持嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我想政府的政策應該是有一致性的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的意思是新的政府也不贊成消防員組工會，是這樣嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：應該是這麼講，消防人員的安全是政府重視的一個項目，怎麼樣達到消防人員的安全，這是目前的措施。我上禮拜才從美國參加55個國家的消防首長會議……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我現在問的是新政府的態度！你不知道就說不知道嘛！你在那邊扯你去美國幹嘛！我有請你報告你去美國回來的心得嗎？新的政府支不支持？你知道就知道，不知道就不知道，扯那麼多幹嘛！"],["蕭署長煥章：我現在不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來，請部長。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：你們不清楚嘛！"],["許部長銘春：是！"],["黃委員國昌：您即將要卸任勞動部部長了嘛！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["黃委員國昌：過去在這個質詢台上，我為了檢驗蔡總統的六大勞工保證，也數度對你提出質詢，但是站在人民的立場，監督行政部門施政本來就是我們立法委員該做的事情，我相信部長不會把它當成是個人的事情。"],["許部長銘春：不會、不會。"],["黃委員國昌：您馬上要離任勞動部部長了，不管如何，過去這幾年您在這個位置上，其實我看得出來您也是兢兢業業在做，做的效果大家滿不滿意，我相信社會各界、勞工朋友心裡面有一把尺，我們做為在野黨，該提出的批判還是要提出來批判，在您要離開之前，對於消防弟兄希望組工會這件事情，您要不要表達一下自己的看法？"],["許部長銘春：委員，我是這樣子認為，消防員的權益是應該要保障，他們的訴求我們一定要重視，今天這個問題主要是過去可能有些權益或訴求沒有受到充分的重視，所以才會有這個組工會的訴求。站在勞動部的立場，我們一定是支持他們的團結權，不管是結社或協商，當然，爭議權的部分會比較保留，但是在達到他們訴求的路徑上，如果以現在的身分，組工會可能會有其困難的話，我們是比較傾向如果在公協法（公務人員協會法）能夠去把他們的協商、結社權予以強化、提升，我覺得我們會來努力。"],["黃委員國昌：好，部長，謝謝。我大概瞭解您的立場了啦！因為今天也是您最後一次備詢，我也沒有辦法逼你講出你的違心之論，只是我覺得有些事情我們要在公共政策的討論上面敞開心胸看一看，南韓在2021年的時候就開放消防員組工會了嘛！他們開放消防員組工會的時候，講得非常的清楚，為了要符合國際勞工組織關於結社自由等相關規範，南韓的國民議會通過了公職人員工會法修正草案，明定消防人員、教育人員也可以組織工會。我們是希望臺灣在保障我們消防弟兄的這一件事情上面，他們會有這麼強烈的呼聲，而且持續了這麼久，顯然就是目前既有的機制沒有辦法滿足他們權益保障的要求，所以這些消防弟兄的心聲，我們要虛心的聽進去，如果一直反對他們組工會，那麼相對應的是，你有什麼更好的辦法？而且能夠讓這些消防弟兄相信你們所提出的也可以滿足他們的需求，如果沒有辦法做到這件事情，我們還不讓那些消防弟兄透過工會團結起來去行使他們的權利，我覺得說不過去，我這段話不僅僅是跟在場的署長以及即將卸任的勞動部部長分享，其實我也是公開的在跟社會對話，也希望新的政府可以聽得進去。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接下來我們請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":270,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-16","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","黃秀芳","林淑芬","牛煦庭","劉建國","陳培瑜","黃國昌","張智倫","李彥秀","邱志偉","陳瑩","楊曜","盧縣一"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134603","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134603_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員王育敏等21人擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民黨黨\n團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員陳菁徽等18人擬具「工會法第四條\n及第六條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案」\n案；二、審查(一)委員王育敏等18人擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(二)國民\n黨黨團擬具「勞動基準法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員郭昱晴\n等19人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王育敏等18\n人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第九條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員馬文君\n等22人擬具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員邱若華等20人擬\n具「中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法第七條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134603_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.480968750000002,"end":14.594093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.10034375,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.83784375,"end":21.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.28909375,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.402218750000003,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.74659375,"end":40.362218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.610968750000005,"end":45.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.08284375,"end":48.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.15409375,"end":54.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.44846875,"end":57.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.31721875,"end":59.312843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.00471875,"end":65.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.84346875,"end":72.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.03659375000001,"end":72.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.71159375,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.03221875,"end":95.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.02909375,"end":93.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.92346875000001,"end":95.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.64034375,"end":109.54971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.70784375000001,"end":98.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.71596875,"end":101.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.37784375000001,"end":103.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.79471875,"end":109.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.05596875,"end":114.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.42659375000001,"end":116.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.07596875,"end":120.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.80534375,"end":122.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.21846875000001,"end":125.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.22221875000001,"end":129.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.61409375,"end":132.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.17909375000002,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.50784375,"end":139.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.26221875000002,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.02971875,"end":144.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.93659375000001,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.34909375,"end":154.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.87596875,"end":154.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.97721875000002,"end":155.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.04471875000002,"end":155.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.38221875000002,"end":155.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.58471875,"end":156.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.71534375000002,"end":158.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.32659375,"end":161.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.60034375,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.38909375,"end":169.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.49034375000002,"end":166.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.13534375,"end":170.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.92409375,"end":171.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.27409375000002,"end":173.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.12596875,"end":175.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.63221875000002,"end":175.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.00346875000002,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.03721875000002,"end":178.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.82159375,"end":186.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.95159375,"end":184.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.48284375,"end":186.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.17471875,"end":187.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.20846875,"end":189.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.11096875,"end":192.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.19909375,"end":195.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.18596875,"end":200.45534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.55221875,"end":203.79659375},{"speak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是是是,這個在520以前目前陳建仁內閣是不贊成消防員組工會沒有錯嗎?"},{"start":284.074,"end":293.236,"text":"我們朝向更廣的方式來處理消防人員失業安全問題。 好,不管啦你用什麼樣的形容詞形容嘛,你不贊成消防員組工會這幾個字就講不出來嘛。"},{"start":295.757,"end":321.979,"text":"你當為署長你不贊成就不贊成嘛大聲的講這就是你的政策立場嘛現在我的問題很簡單啦不贊成消防員主公會的這個政策立場新的內閣新的政府也支持嗎請問署長目前是這個方向我們是在努力的對我的意思是新的政府新的內閣支持嗎我想政府的政策設置政策應該是一次性的"},{"start":322.95,"end":344.058,"text":"所以你的意思是新的政府也不贊成消防員組公會是這樣嗎應該是這麼講消防營業的安全這是政府重視的一個項目怎麼樣達到消防營業的安全這是目前的措施我上禮拜才從美國參加我是五個國家的消防組的會議對不起我在問的是新政府的態度你不知道就說不知道嘛你在那邊扯你去美國幹嘛我有請你報告你去美國回來的心得嗎"},{"start":349.662,"end":370.305,"text":"新的政府支不支持你知道就知道不知道就不知道扯那麼多幹嘛我現在不清楚來請部長是高委員我不清楚你不清楚嘛是您即將要卸任勞動部部長了嘛過去在這個質詢台上我為了要去檢驗蔡總統六大勞工保證我也對你提出過是"},{"start":371.754,"end":390.034,"text":"獅度的質詢但站在人民的立場監督行政部門施政本來就是我們立法委員該做的事情我相信部長不會把它當成是個人的事情好那您馬上要離任勞動部部長了不管如何不管如何您在這個位置上過去這幾年"},{"start":391.095,"end":411.267,"text":"​​ 其實我看得出來啊,你也是進進業業在做。做的效果滿不滿意。我相信社會各界勞工朋友心裡面有一把尺。我們作為在野黨該提出的批判還是要提出批判。在您要離開之前,對於消防員的弟兄希望組工會這件事情,您要不要表達一下你的看法。"},{"start":413.274,"end":438.77,"text":"委員我是這樣子認為說消防員的權益我們是應該要保障他們的訴求我們一定要重視所以今天這個問題主要是在於過去可能有些權益或訴求方面沒有受到充分的一個重視所以才會有這個組工會的訴求站在勞動部的立場我們一定是支持他們的團結權"},{"start":440.691,"end":464.565,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其中一條條條文修正草案案件及其"},{"start":465.345,"end":486.605,"text":"我大概了解您的立場了啦因為也是您最後一次備詢嘛我也沒有辦法逼出你講出你的唯心之論啊那只是我覺得有一些事情齁我們現在在公共政策的討論上面敞開心胸看一看南韓在2021年的時候他們就開放消防員組工會了嘛"},{"start":487.205,"end":500.056,"text":"他們開放消防員組工會的時候講得非常的清楚為了要符合國際勞工組織關於解設自由等相關規範南韓的國民議會通過了公職人員工會法修正草案"},{"start":500.95,"end":525.695,"text":"民定、消防人員、教育人員也可以組織公會我們是希望台灣在保障我們消防弟兄的這一件事情上面他們會有這麼強烈的呼聲而且持續了這麼久顯然就是目前既有的機制沒有辦法滿足他們權益保障的要求所以這些消防弟兄的心聲我們要虛心的聽進去"},{"start":526.815,"end":537.991,"text":"如果說一直反對他們組工會的話那你相對應的是那你有什麼更好的辦法而且能夠讓這些消防弟兄相信你們所提出來的"},{"start":539.025,"end":549.149,"text":"), 國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案﹖一、倫敦市委員會第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹖一、倫敦市委員會第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案﹖一、倫敦市委員會第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹖一、倫敦市委員會第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案﹖一、倫敦市委員會第四條及第六條條文修正草案案﹖一、倫敦市委員會第四條條文修正草案案﹖一、倫敦市委員會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}