{"error":false,"id":["152502"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152502,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152502","日期":"2024-05-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-22","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":22,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-15T09:30:10+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-15T09:44:22+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:12","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0da27e0ad9fc026ad96869206de9aca73abc25b9e10ac7e452ae69a5bbf2089335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:30:10 - 09:44:22","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":117,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時30分）謝謝主席，麻煩請司法院秘書長以及法務部常務次長黃次長。"],["主席：請秘書長、次長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長好，次長好。首先請教次長，我相信法務部對於整個赦免制度在比較法上面有相當程度的瞭解，因為畢竟法務部也派檢察官去國外研究赦免制度，回來以後洋洋灑灑地寫了一個比較大的報告。在赦免制度這件事情上，我真的比較關切的是，我們的總統依照憲法的規定是依法行使大赦、特赦的權力，因此就有關於赦免的制度是有法律保留原則的適用，請教次長，我的理解有沒有錯？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯，憲法對總統的職權是這樣規定。"],["黃委員國昌：因此當我們在看各國赦免制度的時候，他們希望照這個制度依法來行使的時候能夠有一個客觀的標準，那這個客觀的標準包括說，總統在做這個決定以前是依照什麼樣的標準、什麼樣的類型，能夠具有可問責性跟透明性。這個是法務部的檢察官去國外研究後回來寫的研究報告，我看了以後非常的佩服，我也認同這樣子的制度建議方向。但是我們現在就具體的問題來講，法務部針對有關於赦免制度，因為目前依赦免法第六條的規定是可以交由法務部來研議，法務部針對整個赦免制度在什麼情況之下適合來行使大赦或特赦，請教次長，有沒有參酌你們的檢察官去國外研究回來的制度來建立一些客觀的基準以及程序？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，的確法務部就赦免的相關規定有參酌美國、德國、日本相關的立法例，有做一些研究，但是法務部本身……"],["黃委員國昌：這些研究有沒有公開？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：你們是不是可以在會後把你們參酌各國立法例所做的研究送交司法及法制委員會？"],["黃次長謀信：好，沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好。第二個問題，在媒體上面傳得繪聲繪影，說蔡英文總統考慮要特赦陳水扁前總統，我基本上的立場是，對於這一種報派的、不曉得透過什麼莫名其妙的管道放消息給媒體、拔草測風向的處理方式，我是期期以為不然，這是一個嚴肅的憲政問題，這也是一個重要的制度，而這個制度的適用，我們應該具有一定客觀的基準。但是我現在要提一個比較具體的問題，到目前為止，法務部有沒有接到任何指示說要針對這件事情依照赦免法第六條的規定來進行研議？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為赦免法第六條是規定總統得令或轉令……"],["黃委員國昌：是，我瞭解，所以現在在現實上有沒有研議這件事？"],["黃次長謀信：到目前為止沒有收到任何正式……"],["黃委員國昌：到此時此刻、我們在討論的時候，總統都沒有要法務部研議這件事情，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：本部到目前為止沒有收到任何正式轉令要求研議。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。那第二個部分就是今天在司法院的報告提出有關於刑事訴訟法第二百九十四條就審能力的問題，依照現行刑事訴訟法第二百九十四條就審能力的規定，請教一下秘書長，目前我們在訴訟繫屬當中的刑事案件因為這樣而停止審判的案件有幾件？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是那個陳前總統的。"],["黃委員國昌：全國只有一件嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是陳前總統的。"],["黃委員國昌：對，我瞭解，我是說全國的刑事訴訟適用刑事訴訟法第二百九十四條的規定停止審判的，目前在繫屬當中的刑事訴訟適用這一條規定的有幾件？"],["吳秘書長三龍：全體被告啦！"],["黃委員國昌：對。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們刑事廳目前就這一部分沒有統計。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，是不是拜託秘書長會後請刑事廳的同仁把我們目前刑事訴訟法第二百九十四條到底適用的有幾件，可以提交給司法及法制委員會，我們作為接下來制度研議的參考嘛！因為我覺得我們在討論制度的時候就要認真的討論清楚，對於法律制度，我們希望它具有什麼？就是客觀的普遍適用性、可預測性、可問責性、透明性，兩位都是法律人，我想我講的這些原則，兩位應該都贊同吧！"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，請秘書長先回座。那我接下來請教一下次長，我看到一個案子，我感到很憤怒，就是我們立法院的前秘書長貪污了3,100萬，兩個貪污罪被判刑，定應執行刑13年8個月，於2019年7月19號入監服刑，結果在5月14號就已經假釋出獄了，判決定應執行刑13年8個月，結果我去算，到他假釋出獄為止，實際上只關4年10個月。法務部，你們假釋的權力是怎麼行使的？我在喔！從2016年到2020年我在立法院的時候，我就對於黑箱的假釋非常的痛恨，經過了檢警的犯罪偵查，三級三審判決確定了以後，有超過一半以上的刑期要不要執行是掌握在法務部的手上，那個時候針對很多莫名其妙的假釋案件，我提出了質詢，是不是背後有什麼政治力操作，導致了權貴司法的出現？結果今天又再看到這樣的案子，我今天本來要請教蔡清祥部長，因為幾年前就是他在備詢臺上面跟我承諾，假釋制度法務部一定會澈底的改革，澈底改革完出現這樣的結果，次長，你滿不滿意？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，假釋有一定的外部法規規定，跟內部的一個流程程序，本部相關的假釋審議過程，他一定要依法來行政、依法來處理。至於個案上，每一個個案……"],["黃委員國昌：我先講啦！假釋的權力現在完全掌握在行政部門手上，我相信次長很清楚啦！包括很多刑法重量級的學者對這個事情都提出批判，這麼重要的權力全部交給行政機關，它反映出來的是什麼？是一個刑事司法的政策。我現在就要請教一下法務部，你們在行使假釋權力的時候，你們刑事司法的政策到底是什麼？貪污犯定應執行刑13年8個月，你們關了4年10個月就放出來，跟大家解釋一下嘛！這個權力是怎麼行使的？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，假釋制度要不要存在，這是刑事政策上一個很大的問題，至於假釋的控管，那不完全是……在行政上是行政機關的決定沒有錯，但是我們假釋本身有一個假釋委員會，由外部委員來做一個假釋的決定，倒不是完全法務部可以去掌握假釋或不假釋。"],["黃委員國昌：我老實講，次長，你用這種空洞的言語，我不要說你要唬弄人，真的實際上面知道狀況的就是什麼，要不要假釋這件事情，有很大的權力掌握在法務部的手上，因為今天您是文官，不是政務官，你也沒有辦法為政策負責，但我只希望利用這次的質詢清楚地表達一個看法，貪污犯貪了3,100萬，定執行刑13年8個月，結果執行完畢以後，最後只關4年10個月，對於這種制度運作的結果，無法接受、無法接受！我相信不是只有我無法接受，很多人民看在眼裡，也沒有辦法接受。我希望法務部針對這件事情，不要再顢頇下去了、不要再顢頇下去了，要痛定思痛、好好地思考怎麼樣避免這種離譜的狀況繼續出現。","我接下來要請教88調查報告，我那一天跟吳宗憲召委去高檢署，我們去考察的時候，我終於有機會等到請教高檢署。我說高檢署當初所做的行政調查報告內容不實，這件事情我問了一年多，包括蔡清祥部長在這個備詢臺上公開承諾過高檢署要回應，結果我到那一天、禮拜一去考察以前，我沒有等到高檢署的回應，我終於有機會去考察的時候，請教高檢署的檢察長還有負責處理的主任檢察官，我說的沒有錯、我說的沒有錯，當初高檢署說什麼？說他們有澈底查明，問題是什麼？現實上面的狀況，現場就有人在招待，高檢署當初的調查報告寫的是什麼？現場沒有任何人、沒有任何人提供服務，我那時候看到高檢署這個調查報告，我無法相信，我無法相信檢察官跟高階警官到那個招待所是自己開燈、自己開冷氣、自己倒水、自己服務自己。我當初看了高檢署的調查報告就覺得有問題，但我需要證據，我終於找到證據，去訪問那個招待所的管家的時候，管家清楚地講，有招待啊！我們現場有3個人在那邊負責服務，結果高檢署的內容卻不是這樣寫，我等到禮拜一，我去了高檢署，結果高檢署說，當初有很多資訊他們不知道，接受訪談的檢警也沒有說實話，這是哪門子澈底查明？你們後來去跟警政署調資料，證明我所言不虛，我要請教的是，這是警政署在隱匿還是高檢署在放水？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，當天那個調查報告的檢察長跟主任檢察官也跟委員說明了，事實上，就在場業者3人的部分，的確當時所掌握的證據沒有掌握到這3人，所以調查報告沒有寫……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，對，當時掌握到的證據沒有這3個人，但相關的證據在警政署手上對不對？是嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：因為這個案它是不是在……"],["黃委員國昌：拜託！你們那一天就直接回復我，你們後來還發新聞稿，後來發新聞稿說什麼？後來發新聞稿說你們不是去警政署調了那一個簽到簿，發現進出的人就有現場的業者，我有沒有說錯？"],["黃次長謀信：對，後來發新聞稿是這樣，但是跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我就在問，警政署當初掌握這個資訊，你們高檢署發的行政調查報告，請次長回去看，本署──高檢署是結合新北地檢署、警政署聯合進行行政調查，行政調查完了以後出了這一份澈底查明的報告，事後就不是這樣嘛！所以我剛才請教你的事情是，當初是警政署隱匿還是高檢署放水？這就是我的問題。"],["黃次長謀信：我知道……"],["黃委員國昌：好，你們這個補充的行政調查，因為我要尊重後面委員的時間，你們補充更正的行政調查報告什麼時候會提出來？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，現在他那天……"],["黃委員國昌：那天他說要簽部長嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：他自己有權可以發布啦！"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候要發布？"],["黃次長謀信：我不能代他回答，當天他是有跟委員報告大概多久的時間……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，他那天跟我說要簽部長啊！"],["黃次長謀信：要不然……"],["黃委員國昌：還是部長現在人也不在了，然後他明天就總辭了，新的部長也不知道要看多久。"],["黃次長謀信：這部分的話，高檢署會儘速來公布。"],["黃委員國昌：儘速好嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：好。"],["黃委員國昌：儘速把補充報告講清楚，當初是警政署隱匿還是高檢署放水，謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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呢當我們在看各國赦免制度的時候他們希望這一個制度依法來行使的時候能夠有一個客觀的標準那這個客觀的標準包括了說總統在做這個決定以前針對什麼樣的標準"},{"start":92.152,"end":112.566,"text":"什麼樣子的類型能夠有一個具有可問責性跟透明性這個是法務部的檢察官去國外研究回來的研究報告我看了以後非常的佩服我也認同這樣子的制度建議方向但我們現在就具體的問題來講"},{"start":114.267,"end":120.68,"text":"法務部針對有關於赦免制度因為目前赦免法第6條的規定是可以交由法務部來研議"},{"start":125.953,"end":143.741,"text":"那法務部針對整個赦免制度在什麼情況之下適合來行使這個大赦或特赦參佐你們的檢察官去國外研究回來的制度有沒有建立一些客觀的基準以及程序請教次長"},{"start":144.993,"end":146.455,"text":"這些研究有沒有公開?沒有"},{"start":160.948,"end":187.391,"text":"好 那個是不是會後請你們把你們參酌各國的立法力所做的研究可以送交司法法制委員會 可以嗎好 沒問題好 第二個問題是說針對在媒體上面傳的會聲會語說蔡英文總統考慮要特赦陳水扁前總統我基本上的立場是對於這一種道派的"},{"start":189.014,"end":208.912,"text":"不曉得透過什麼莫名其妙的管道放消息給媒體拔草側風向這種處理方式我是岐岐以為不然這是一個嚴肅的憲政問題這也是一個重要的制度而這個制度的適用我們應該具有一定客觀的基準"},{"start":209.753,"end":227.052,"text":"好那但我現在比較具體的問題是說到目前為止法務部有沒有接到任何的指示要針對這件事情依照社民法第6條的規定來進行研議顧問報告因為社民法第6條規定他是總統得事或"},{"start":227.412,"end":229.973,"text":"那第二個部分就有關於今天在司法院的報告提出了有關於刑事訴訟法第294條救省能力的問題"},{"start":255.356,"end":273.356,"text":"那依照目前刑事訴訟法294條救審能力的規定請教一下秘書長目前我們在訴訟係數當中的刑事案件因為這樣停職審判的案件有幾件就是是那個陳前總統的全國只有一件嗎"},{"start":274.42,"end":290.575,"text":"就是陳前總統的對啊 我了解 我說全國的刑事訴訟是用刑事訴訟法294條的規定停止審判的目前的刑事訴訟 寄屬當中的刑事訴訟是用這條規定的 有幾件前提被告啦對對對對"},{"start":293.557,"end":315.173,"text":"我們刑事廳目前就這一步沒有同仁好沒有關係會後事事拜託秘書長請刑事廳的同仁把我們目前刑事訴訟法294條到底適用的有幾件可以提交給司法法制委員會我們作為接下來制度研議的參考嘛因為我覺得我們在討論制度的時候就要認真的討論清楚"},{"start":317.014,"end":341.701,"text":"法律制度我們希望它具有什麼客觀的普遍適用性可預測性可問責性透明性兩位都是法律人我想我講的這些原則兩位應該都贊同吧是好請秘書長先回座那我接下來請教一下齁次長我看到一個案子啊我很憤怒我們的前立法院的秘書長貪污了3100萬"},{"start":346.192,"end":371.039,"text":"兩個貪污罪被判刑．定執行刑13年8個月．13年8個月2019年7月19號入監服刑．結果．在5月14號的時候他已經假釋出獄了．判了應定執行刑13年8個月．結果我算．到他假釋出獄為止．實際上只關4年10個月"},{"start":374.198,"end":402.065,"text":"法務部你們假釋的權利是怎麼行使的我在2016到2020年我那時候在立法院的時候我就對於黑箱的假釋非常的痛恨經過了檢警的犯罪偵查三期三審判決確定了以後有超過一半以上的刑期要不要執行掌握在法務部的手上"},{"start":403.069,"end":428.632,"text":"那個時候針對很多莫名其妙的假釋案件我提出了質詢是不是背後有什麼政治力操作導致了權貴司法的出現結果今天又再看到這樣的案子我今天本來請教蔡京祥部長因為幾年前就是他在備詢台上面跟我承諾"},{"start":429.864,"end":453.134,"text":"假釋制度．法務部一定會徹底的改革徹底改革完．出現這樣的結果 次長你滿不滿意共委員報告他假釋他有一定的外部法規規定跟內部的一個流程的程序本部相關的假釋修正這個水利的過程他一定要依法來行政依法來處理至於個案上每個個案都我先講"},{"start":455.578,"end":479.419,"text":"假釋的權利現在完全掌握在行政部門手上我相信次長很清楚啦包括很多刑法重量級的學者對這個事情都提出批判嘛這麼重要的權利全部交給行政機關他反映出來的是什麼是一個刑事司法的政策我現在就要請教一下法務部"},{"start":480.526,"end":496.736,"text":"你們在行使假釋權利的時候你行使司法的政策到底是什麼貪污犯應定執行刑13年8個月你們關了4年10個月就放出來跟大家解釋一下嘛這個權利是怎麼行使的"},{"start":498.062,"end":499.663,"text":"我老實講啦就是說次長你用這種空洞的言語可能"},{"start":526.501,"end":535.75,"text":"我不要說你要糊弄人啦真的實際上面知道狀況的就是什麼要不要假設這件事情有很大的權力掌握在法務部的手上"},{"start":536.618,"end":561.891,"text":"那因為今天您是文官不是政務官你也沒有辦法為政策負責但我只希望利用這次的質詢清楚的表達一個看法貪污犯喔貪污犯貪了3100萬並執行刑13年8個月結果執行完畢以後最後只關4年10個月對於這種制度運作的結果無法接受"},{"start":562.895,"end":563.455,"text":"我接下來要請教八八調查報告"},{"start":587.54,"end":613.467,"text":"我那天跟吳宗憲召委去高檢署我們去考察的時候我終於有機會等到請教高檢署我說高檢署當初所做的行政調查報告內容不實這件事情我問了一年多包括蔡清祥部長在這個備詢台上面公開承諾過公開承諾過高檢署要回應"},{"start":616.728,"end":640.153,"text":"結果我到那一天禮拜一去考察以前我沒有等到高檢署的回應我終於有機會去考察的時候請教高檢署的檢察長還有負責處理的主任檢察官我說的沒有錯啊我錯了沒有錯當初高檢署說什麼說他們有徹底查明"},{"start":641.589,"end":669.771,"text":"問題是什麼現實上面的狀況現場就有人在招待高檢署當初的調查報告寫的是什麼現場沒有任何人沒有任何人提供服務我那時候看到高檢署這個調查報告我無法相信啊我無法相信檢察官跟高階警官到那個招待所是自己開燈自己開冷氣自己倒水自己服務自己"},{"start":670.683,"end":677.934,"text":"我當初開了高檢署的調查報告我覺得就有問題但我需要證據"},{"start":679.824,"end":706.99,"text":"我終於找到證據去訪問那個招待所的管家的時候那個管家清楚的講有招待啊我們現場三個人啊在那邊負責服務啊結果高檢署的內容卻不是這樣寫的我等到禮拜一等到禮拜一我去了我去了高檢署結果高檢署說啊當初有很多資訊他們不知道"},{"start":708.351,"end":724.549,"text":"接受訪談的檢警也沒有說實話這是哪門子徹底查明啊你們後來去跟警政署調資料 證明我所言不虛我要請教的是 這個是警政署在隱匿還是高檢署在放水"},{"start":725.566,"end":752.109,"text":"跟委員報告那事實上當天那個調查報告的檢察長跟主任檢察官也跟委員說明了事實上就這個在場我們業者三人的部分的確當時所掌握的證據沒有掌握到這三人所以調查報告沒有檢查先停一下對齁當時掌握到的證據沒有這三個人但相關的證據在警政署手上對不對是嘛因為這個個案他是不是在警政署你們拜託你們那天就直接回覆我你們後來還發"},{"start":754.099,"end":780.183,"text":"新聞稿後來發新聞稿說什麼後來發新聞稿說你們不是去警政署調了那個簽到簿發現進出的人就有現場的業者我有沒有說錯對 後來發新聞稿是這樣但是 更為對嘛 所以我就在問嘛警政署當初掌握這個資訊你們高檢署發的行政調查報告請次長回去看本署"},{"start":781.479,"end":798.974,"text":"高檢署喔是結合新北地檢署警政署我們聯合進行什麼行政調查行政調查完了以後如何出了這一份徹底查明的報告那事後就不是這樣嘛所以我剛請教你的事情是那當初"},{"start":800.015,"end":814.665,"text":"是警政署隱匿還是高檢署放水這就是我的問題對我知道好你們這個補充的行政調查因為我要尊重後面委員的時間啦齁你們補充更正的行政調查報告什麼時候會提出來"},{"start":816.745,"end":830.313,"text":"呃 各位報告 現在 現在他 上 那天這個那天他說要簽部長嘛對 他是 他當 自己有權可以 可以發布啦那什麼時候要發布我不能代他回答當天他是有跟 跟委員報告大概多久的時間"},{"start":831.724,"end":850.193,"text":"沒有他那天跟我說要簽部長啊還是部長現在人也不在了然後他明天就總辭了新的部長也不知道要看多久那這部分的話高檢署他會盡速來公佈盡速好嗎盡速的補充報告講清楚當初是警政署隱匿還是高檢署放水謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}