{"error":false,"id":["152508"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152508,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152508","日期":"2024-05-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-22","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":22,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-15T09:55:20+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-15T10:07:03+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:43","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0683d98c8a21072f596869206de9aca73abc25b9e10ac7e4540c3ce8f2effcf9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:55:20 - 10:07:03","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":198,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時55分）有請秘書長和次長。"],["主席：請秘書長、次長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：關於特赦陳水扁，我有幾個問題想要請教一下。因為民進黨一直強調政治案件政治解決，所以我想請問次長，你覺得陳水扁案是政治案件還是司法案件？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，特赦的權力憲法規定是專屬於總統，我們對總統的職權沒有辦法做過多的評論。"],["羅委員智強：秘書長覺得呢？"],["吳秘書長三龍：也是尊重總統的職權。"],["羅委員智強：我好奇一件事情，如果照民進黨的邏輯，這是政治案件的話，我想請教一下，目前陳水扁總統被判決定讞的案件有幾件？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，目前定讞的部分是4件。"],["羅委員智強：4件嘛！除了陳水扁以外，裡面牽連到的一些被判斷確定的其他人有哪些？陳水扁這4個案子牽連到很多人啊！"],["黃次長謀信：對，相關的非常多人都已經陸陸續續確定了。"],["羅委員智強：哪些人？吳淑珍、趙健銘……"],["黃次長謀信：對，部分的人都確定了，趙健銘還有他的……"],["羅委員智強：趙玉柱、陳致中、黃睿靚……有些是無罪，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：我想請問，那些確定的既然是政治案件，是不是一併特赦？目前總統特赦的範圍是誰？只有陳水扁，還是所有涉案關係人、涉案的被告、涉案被判決確定的對象全部都要特赦呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，本部目前為止都沒有收到任何特赦的轉令說要特赦……"],["羅委員智強：所以今天我要講的第一件事情，全國民眾在關注的是你的特赦範圍到底是陳水扁一個人，還是陳水扁這個貪污集團，當然蔡部長今天沒來，我覺得今天民進黨也好，蔡英文總統也好，要交代清楚。第二個民眾關心的問題，我想請教一下，犯罪所得怎麼處理？如果是特赦陳水扁的話。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，剛剛司法院與本部的報告都有說到，特赦的部分是免除他的刑的執行或者是罪刑宣告無效，前提都是刑……"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["黃次長謀信：但犯罪所得的部分，按照我們修法之後，它並不是主刑，也不是從刑，它是一個特殊處分……"],["羅委員智強：我直接問具體的……"],["黃次長謀信：所以它不會被這個特赦的效力所及。"],["羅委員智強：好，我直接問具體的，針對二次金改元大併復華案，目前陳水扁未繳的個人罰金多少錢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，陳前總統刑的部分確定的部分都執行完畢了……"],["羅委員智強：我講的是未繳罰金。"],["黃次長謀信：罰金的部分也執行完畢了，他這四個案子罰金刑的部分總共是2.5億，都執行完畢了。"],["羅委員智強：執行完畢？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：那海外有多少的錢被凍結？"],["黃次長謀信：現在國內外凍結的資產，有些是不動產，沒有辦法……"],["羅委員智強：大概多少？不會連這個都沒掌握吧！"],["黃次長謀信：大概7億元左右。"],["羅委員智強：7億元左右。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：這7億元歸屬誰？"],["黃次長謀信：他確定的部分已經執行完畢了，但有一部分還在審理當中……"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["黃次長謀信：所以要等判決的結果，才能知道宣告沒收的……"],["羅委員智強：一個是罰金，一個是不法所得，不法所得怎麼處理？"],["黃次長謀信：不法所得就要看判決的主文怎麼宣告……"],["羅委員智強：這四個判決確定的不法所得怎麼處理？"],["黃次長謀信：判決確定部分的不法所得，我們當然就先執行完畢了……"],["羅委員智強：罰金也執行完畢了？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：剩下的都是所謂的未辦結確定的，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對、對、對，罰金的部分剩下一點點，不法所得的部分剩下一點點，幾千塊，其他的都執行完畢了。"],["羅委員智強：好，那我想問，換言之，如果發布特赦後，目前海外凍結的這些財產及罰金會繼續凍結，還是就會被解凍了？"],["黃次長謀信：不會，因為他還有……"],["羅委員智強：還有繫屬中的案件嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對、對、對，還有審理中的個案。"],["羅委員智強：好，那我再想請教一下，以目前來說的話，他未判決定讞的有哪些案件？"],["黃次長謀信：他未判決定讞的部分也是四個案子。"],["羅委員智強：四件嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：一個是卸任總統侵占公文書案，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：停審的時間是什麼時候？什麼時候開始停審？"],["黃次長謀信：102年的12月20日停審。"],["羅委員智強：102年12月停審，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：到現在幾年了？11年，對不對？我想請問當時停審的原因是什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：這是審判的職權。"],["羅委員智強：秘書長，停審的原因是什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這個涉及到個案，刑事廳……"],["羅委員智強：不會吧！今天來專案報告，陳水扁特赦案，連停審的原因都不知道！"],["吳秘書長三龍：是因為疾病不能出庭。"],["羅委員智強：因為疾病不可以出庭，對。那我想請教兩位，陳水扁最近做了一件大家非常為他開心的事，是什麼事你知道嗎？陳水扁還可以擔任陳幸妤的訴訟代理人，替他牙醫診所醫療糾紛的官司辯護，自己沒有辦法出庭自己的官司，身體不好，倒是女兒的官司，他身體很好，擔任訴訟代理人，又可以出庭！今天不只是我們剛剛講的侵占公文書案已經停審了11年，都以身體健康因素來停審，還有包括陳敏薰買官延伸的洗錢案，請問是什麼時候停審的？"],["黃次長謀信：104年5月13日。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！然後國務機要費教唆偽證案什麼時候停審的？"],["黃次長謀信：103年1月28日。"],["羅委員智強：然後二次金改國泰金併世華銀案又是什麼時候停審的？"],["黃次長謀信：104年8月31日。"],["羅委員智強：那我想請教一下，陳水扁都要被特赦了，這些案子什麼時候審？他身體健康的狀況有到連出庭都不行嗎？出庭都不行嗎？請問停審的標準到底是怎麼認定？誰來判斷？秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：原則上，這個是屬於審判核心事項，基於審判獨立，是由個案承審法官本於權責來判斷。"],["羅委員智強：都很一致，全部都停審，這四個案子的法官都一樣嗎？都一樣嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些有的在高院，有的在地院。"],["羅委員智強：我要講一件事，說真的，今天對於陳水扁要不要特赦，你剛剛講總統職權，如果蔡英文真的要特赦，沒關係，民進黨要留一個特赦貪污總統的歷史紀錄，剛剛莊瑞雄委員講8項紀錄，前面絕大多數不是良心犯，就是政治犯，如果民進黨要創一個特赦貪污總統的紀錄，也由得民進黨，可是我就要請問後面的官司還要不要判？後面的官司，蔡英文可以特赦嗎？可以嗎？次長。"],["黃次長謀信：本部報告寫得很清楚，特赦限於已經判決確定的……"],["羅委員智強：當然，他沒辦法特赦，等到判決確定，也輪不到他特赦，那我想問，這是什麼？分期付款嗎？蔡英文特赦完之後，剩下的沒被判的案件，等到賴清德上任以後，又被判罪了，是不是要再特赦一次？再特赦一次嗎？四個案子分別四次判就特赦四次的意思，是這個概念嗎？還有一件事我想請教兩位，你知道高雄曾經發生監獄暴動，挾持典獄長的事情，記不記得？"],["黃次長謀信：大寮。"],["羅委員智強：記得嘛！大寮，對不對？他們有一個訴求你不會忘記吧！跟陳水扁有關，六項訴求其中有一個訴求跟陳水扁有關，哪一項訴求？哪一項訴求？我告訴你，次長，要掌握清楚一點，因為你今天來做專案報告，跟陳水扁有關的不只是審判案件，還有包括保外就醫，當時那6個受刑人說他們要暴動的原因之一就是無法忍受陳水扁怎麼樣？為什麼陳水扁可以保外就醫？請問監所裡面比陳水扁健康狀況更嚴重的有沒有存在？有沒有？有沒有？有沒有保外就醫？"],["黃次長謀信：我們現在每年就將近有300、400個保外就醫的。"],["羅委員智強：保外就醫是什麼樣的狀況？當時啦！我知道你們後面改了一堆規定，當時保外就醫是指在監所病重到不能在監所治療啦！"],["黃次長謀信：對，是不能醫治或無法醫治。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！不能醫治或無法醫治……"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：如果感冒發燒，可不可以保外就醫？可不可以？"],["黃次長謀信：具體地適不適用保外醫治的規定當然……"],["羅委員智強：當然不可以，連這個你都答不出來！"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，我還沒講完，它有一定的程序要去審核。"],["羅委員智強：可不可以？"],["黃次長謀信：委員，你是講感冒嗎？"],["羅委員智強：感冒發燒可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：通常合理第三人來看，這個當然是認為不行啊！"],["羅委員智強：對啊！今天他都已經可以當訴訟代理人、可以上直播、可以「趴趴走」，你覺得他有病重到不能夠在監所內為醫治之行為嗎？有嗎？從正常客觀第三人來看，你剛剛講的，有嗎？沒有啦！我幫你回答，我知道你不方便啦！","今天在陳水扁身上，說真的，大家對特赦的問題談論的還不只是總統職權的特赦，總統還有憲法依據特赦他，保外就醫的制度已經被陳水扁踐踏到連高雄都為之發生監獄暴動了，這個所謂停審也是為陳水扁量身停審了11年、10年，我就只問一件事情，司法院，當然你不能干預個案，可是我要請所有法官也要接受社會公評，陳水扁現在這個狀況，停審的原因到底還存在嗎？所有的人能夠跟陳水扁一樣接受停審的待遇，從此之後停審300年，逍遙法外嗎？如果現在他這個狀況可以停審，他的停審叫無限期，你相不相信？現在他可以繼續停審的話，我們臺灣的司法公正在哪裡？總統特赦還有憲法的依據，保外就醫現在量身定做、停審也量身定做，為陳水扁1人而設，這才是今天整個司法被踐踏的核心原因，謝謝。"],["主席：我們休息1分鐘。","休息（10時7分）","繼續開會（10時8分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","接下來請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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各位報告陳千東董行的部分確定的部分都執行完畢我講的是未繳罰金罰金的部分也執行完畢了他總共這四個案子的罰金行的部分是2.5億都執行完畢了執行完畢啊對那海外有多少的那個錢被凍結?"},{"start":208.243,"end":228.612,"text":"現在國內外的這個凍結的資產大概他有一些是不凍產他要沒有辦法大概多少嗎我連這都沒掌握吧大概7億元左右7億元左右那這7億元歸屬誰因為確定部分已經執行完畢了但他有一部分還是在審理當中對所以要等判決的結果"},{"start":231.115,"end":239.741,"text":"一個是罰金 一個是不罰所得 不罰所得怎麼處理不罰所得就要看判決的主文怎麼宣告四個判決確定的不罰所得怎麼處理"},{"start":241.192,"end":241.992,"text":"目前海外凍結的這些財產跟罰金"},{"start":263.1,"end":265.101,"text":"以目前來說的話就是我們未判決定業有哪些案件"},{"start":280.709,"end":299.752,"text":"他未判決定讞的部分還有也是4個案子事件嘛對一個是卸任總統侵占公文書案嘛對不對對停審的時間是什麼時候什麼時候開始停審102年的12月20號停審的102年就102年12月停審嘛對不對到現在幾年了13年了嘛11年了11年11年對不對我想請問當時停審原因是什麼"},{"start":310.239,"end":311.16,"text":"那我想請教我們的兩位"},{"start":336.277,"end":361.291,"text":"你知道陳水扁最近做了一件大家覺得非常為他開心的事是什麼事你知道嗎因為陳水扁還可以擔任陳信宇的訴訟代理人然後替他牙醫診所醫療糾紛辯護還能夠自己沒有辦法出庭自己的官司身體不好倒是女兒的官司她身體很好訴訟代理人又可以出庭"},{"start":363.203,"end":387.198,"text":"我現在問的是今天請問我剛剛講不只是我們剛剛講的這個還有什麼這個我們講青藏公文書的已經停審了11年都以身體健康因素來停審還有包括陳敏勳買官延伸的洗錢案請問是什麼時候停審的?104年5月13號對啊然後國務紀要費教授委政案什麼時候停審的?103年1月28號"},{"start":390.953,"end":408.026,"text":"然後二次經改國泰經病釋華銀案又是什麼時候停審的?104年8月31號那我想請教一下陳水扁都被特赦了那這些案子什麼時候審啊?他身體健康的狀況有到連出庭都不行嗎?出庭都不行嗎?請問那個停審到底是的標準是怎麼認定?誰來判斷?秘書長"},{"start":422.146,"end":448.605,"text":"這個齁是原則上齁這個是屬於這個審判核心事項啦齁那基於審判獨立齁是由這個個案成審法官本於前者來判斷的都很一致阿全部都停審阿這四個案子法官都一樣嗎都一樣嗎這個齁那應該這個有的在高院有的在低院阿我要講一件事阿"},{"start":450.117,"end":476.135,"text":"今天民眾說真的對於陳水扁要不要特赦你剛剛講總統職權已經特赦完的東西如果陳水扁真的要特赦沒關係民進黨要留一個特赦貪污總統的歷史紀錄像剛剛莊育雄委員講八項紀錄前面絕大多數不是良心犯就是政治犯如果民進黨要創一個特赦貪污總統的紀錄那也由得民進黨"},{"start":477.352,"end":505.073,"text":"可是我就要問那請問後面的官司還要不要判啊?後面的官司蔡英文可以特赦嗎?可以嗎?市長本部報告也寫得很清楚特赦現已判決確定當然啦他沒辦法特赦啊對等到判決確定也輪不到他特赦啊那我想問是什麼分期付款嗎?蔡英文特赦完之後剩下沒被判的案件等到愛情人上任以後又被判罪了還是不是要再特赦一次?"},{"start":506.141,"end":533.41,"text":"要特赦一次嗎?四個案子,四次分別判就特赦四次的意思,是這個概念嗎?所以回頭我就要說,還有一件事我想請教兩位你知道高雄曾經發生監獄暴動嗎?挾持典獄長的事情,記不記得?記得嘛,大寮嘛,對不對?他們訴求,有一個訴求你不會忘記吧,跟陳水扁有關六項訴求,有一個訴求跟陳水扁有關,哪一項訴求?"},{"start":536.192,"end":562.646,"text":"哪一項訴求?我告訴你這個市長要掌握清楚一點因為你今天來做專案報告跟陳水扁有關的不只是審判案件啦還有包括保外就醫啦當時那些六個我們的那個受刑人啊他們說他們要暴動的原因之一就是無法忍受陳水扁怎麼樣為什麼陳水扁可以保外就醫"},{"start":564.778,"end":592.771,"text":"請問監所有沒有比陳水扁健康更嚴重的有沒有存在有沒有有沒有有沒有保外就醫我們現在每年就將近有三四百個保外就醫的保外就醫是什麼樣的狀況當時啦我知道你們後面改了一堆規定啦當時在保外就醫是指在監所病重到不能再監所治療啦對他是不能醫治或無法醫治對啊不能醫治或無法醫治啊"},{"start":593.953,"end":614.432,"text":"阿如果感冒發燒可不可以保外就醫可不可以他具體的是不是用保外醫治的規定那當然他要當然不可以連這個你都答不出來我還沒講完他有一定的程序要去審可不可以嘛委員你是講感冒嗎感冒發燒可以嗎通常合理第三人來看這個當然是認為不行阿對啊"},{"start":616.291,"end":624.357,"text":"那今天都已經到可以到訴訟代理人可以上直播可以趴趴走你覺得他有病重到不能夠在監所內為醫治之行為嗎?有嗎?從正常客觀第三人來看你剛剛講的有嗎?沒有啦我幫你回答我知道你不方便啦"},{"start":634.639,"end":659.946,"text":"今天在陳水扁身上其實說真的大家對特赦的問題談論的還不只是總統職權的特赦總統還有憲法依據特赦他保衛就醫的制度被陳水扁已經踐踏到連高雄都為他發生監獄暴動了啦然後這個所謂停審也是為陳水扁量身停審了十幾年11年10年那我就只問一件事情我也請司法院"},{"start":661.828,"end":690.197,"text":"當然你不能干預個案可是我要請所有法官也要接受社會公平陳雪扁這個現在狀況停審原因到底還存在嗎所有的人跟陳雪扁一樣能夠接受停審的待遇然後從此之後停審300年逍遙法外嗎如果現在這狀況可以停審他的停審叫無限期你相不相信現在就可以停審的話繼續停審的話那台灣我們的司法公正在哪裡特赦還有憲法總統的依據"},{"start":691.704,"end":693.465,"text":"這才是今天整個司法被踐踏的核心原因"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}