{"error":false,"id":["152514"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152514,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152514","日期":"2024-05-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-15T10:23:44+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-15T10:37:57+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:13","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c05215e064ddf93b25881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e45b39433cafc38c7155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:23:44 - 10:37:57","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":404,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時24分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：我們請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早。昨天公糧收購算是向前跨了一大步，昨天包括台灣民眾黨，我代表台灣民眾黨的提案，還有楊瓊瓔的提案昨天都逕付二讀，接下來應該是一個月內就要找部長協調了，今天我們期待部長在這個協調過程不要一毛不拔、寸草不「升」，好不好？不要一毛不拔、寸草不「升」。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們共同的目標就是想辦法讓稻農的收入能夠確保，甚至於提高……"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！你不要再放那個錄音帶，已經講了一百次了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，這個是很重要的。"],["張委員啓楷：我是跟你講昨天已經有一個新的進展，就是院會逕付二讀，本來台灣民眾黨要求1公升要調升至少5塊錢，楊瓊瓔的是要8塊嘛，對不對？我聽到內幕說行政部門是行政院那邊可能1公斤要調3塊，是不是？還在討論中？"],["陳代理部長駿季：完全沒有這個消息，我跟委員說明，每調1塊錢要花4.32億，至少！大概有這個數字……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，其實台灣民眾黨是一個理性、務實、科學的政黨，我們是去看了一些必要的條件，包括成本的增加，這段時間13年沒調，物價上漲15%，農藥跟肥料上漲25%，漲更多的是基本工資，13年來基本工資漲了將近1萬，就是53%，所以漲5塊錢不過分。沒關係，反正我們一個月內會再協商，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這個部分拜託一下，請你多照顧我們的……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們會提出一個大家都滿意的方案。"],["張委員啓楷：好，期待你的滿意的方案，不過最重要的是不要一毛不拔，寸草不「升」！","我們來問一個歷史性……今天希望是一個歷史性的詢答，進口蛋已經堆3、4個月了，今天會不會有一個很明確的一口價？不要再一日三市了，你上禮拜說了一個很重要的，這個關鍵字叫做10億，對不對？你看我左邊這個5億6,278萬，另外的4億7,509萬，這都是以前你給我的資料，你上個禮拜講了一個數字，過期的進口蛋全民買單是10億嗎？這個10億怎麼來的？這10億是怎麼來的？你要明確喔！因為你今天不是只有回答立法院，審計部……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道……"],["張委員啓楷：到時候審計部……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，在這10億裡面包括我們進口蛋的1億5,800萬裡面一些雞蛋的費用的差額補貼，差額補貼大概將近兩億多，另外有一部分是冷凍液蛋，因為它會出售跟它價差的補貼，我們會處理，然後銷毀的部分，上一次也講了銷毀的部分總共是四億四千多萬，其中還有倉儲的費用是2,352萬，委託加工的部分是3,367萬，還有蛋品調度的部分，還有相關的行政費用，還有銷毀的費用、堆肥的費用，這些東西加起來是10億，這個我特別……"],["張委員啓楷：很清楚對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，剛才這些資料是透過我們……因為會計帳最清楚啦！會計帳所列的這些項目……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這個是很重要，這個數目不會再變了嘛，對不對？一個細目都非常清楚。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對……"],["張委員啓楷：你等一下給我一份，然後也給記者一份，我們今天就把它定下來，我們清楚把它定下來……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有、沒有，我覺得這個……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我要提醒你一點，審計部也還是會查你的帳，這個數目不要又跳動……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我還是要跟委員說明，所有的雞蛋調度是由畜產會，畜產會提報計畫來，我們農業部從會計的角度去核這樣的一個經費項目，這個部分我們會後會提給委員，這沒問題。但是我覺得在這個時間點，我們會想辦法在我們的公開……"],["張委員啓楷：雞蛋的專區。"],["陳代理部長駿季：在專區裡面去做適度的公開，而不是說要給委員、給記者，因為那麼多記者，我不知道要該給誰，我們會在公開資訊裡面做相關的一個處理。"],["張委員啓楷：有，所以今天這個詢答非常重要，我們過期進口蛋已經鬧了一年多了，今天很清楚，全民買單就是10億，就定調下來。本席要更清楚的不是只有你剛剛講的這個細目，本席很清楚的要求兩個東西，過期雞蛋採購金額要有詳細的列表，包括進口國、數量、進口日期跟到岸價格，這個你本來就是要做，對不對？你再清楚給我一份資料；第二個，倉儲……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，因為很多東西都已經在去年度的官網裡面呈現了，我們都有定期的更新，有進口，我們就會把那個數量，有個報表的數量會增加……"],["張委員啓楷：就把你有做的東西，依照剛剛講的規格，進口國、數量、進口日期跟到岸價格給我。第二個，倉儲的部分……"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，我先跟委員說明，因為進口日期每一批、每一批，那個已經屬於在調查了，我個人覺得我們本身目前相關的規定是……至少對農業部，我們有經過會計還有一些同仁去瞭解了以後，是一個正常的行為，沒有錯，畜產會本身當然有一些作業上必須精進的地方，但如果每一筆、每一個批號都要去調，那個是大工程，相對的，現在我們畜牧司還有很多、很多的事情要做。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我跟你說啦！其實不是今天我要求你，我覺得審計部去查一定也是要這個細目。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對！"],["張委員啓楷：你回去想一下，你覺得可以給，你就給我；不行的話，我們再進一步討論，好不好？另外，倉儲那一塊我希望你是分年度跟幾個批次，好不好？我等一下再……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我能夠給的，我一定會給，原則上我能夠給的一定會給。"],["張委員啓楷：你要讓民眾可以相信你的話，這個要求是非常清楚的。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我相信民眾本身，因為會計的報表是最精準的，如果連會計報表都覺得不準的話，那政府的威信在哪邊？"],["張委員啓楷：OK，好，我們也看你的報表啦，好不好？","另外一個很重要的就是去化過程到底能不能昭公信嘛！我剛剛去看你們的網站，有進步了啦！上禮拜是3個檔案，今天有6天的檔案，對不對？有進步，可是……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對不起，我還是跟委員講，整個過期雞蛋的銷毀有第三方全程的監控，包括地方的衛生局、地方的相關人員，還有我們有一部分的政風……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我知道，現在……"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個東西如果沒有辦法取得公信，那什麼影片其實只是一個讓人家知道我們的過程。"],["張委員啓楷：雙管齊下啦！可是影片是我們到屏東去的時候，經濟委員會要求的，決議……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道……"],["張委員啓楷：你當初也在現場，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我承諾，但因為它的檔案太大了，所以我們現在想辦法拉成另外一個硬碟，然後讓需要的人去下載，而不是線上瀏覽，因為那會讓我們的頻寬掛掉。"],["張委員啓楷：好，事實上你最重要的是要分類啦！就是要有日期，然後有出來的倉儲跟那個去化廠跟整個數量，好不好？你們目前已經有6天的量了……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們完成就會上去、完成就會上去。"],["張委員啓楷：你就照這個格式，你們現在上去的是data啦！就是還不是information嘛，對不對？那你們就是要分類啊！檔名應該有個日期、有個倉儲、有個去化廠、有個數量……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我真的沒有辦法依照委員要求的這樣檔名，因為檔名一改，由於檔名跟我們的檔案有分類的邏輯，但是相對的，我們把影片po上去，就表示我們做了這些事情，如果要根據你要求的日期、倉儲、去化廠、數量，那相對我們所有的檔名要重改。"],["張委員啓楷：不過部長，你們現在放上去的，我剛剛看到的就是6天，只有日期嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，有日期、有倉儲的地點。"],["張委員啓楷：好，我進去看一下你們那個日期，這樣到底……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我相信會讓人家知道。"],["張委員啓楷：不過我們還是來看怎麼樣進一步的分類啦，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["張委員啓楷：再來，我要問你雞蛋的事情，事實上我們談那麼久，現在就是整個雞舍包括雞蛋的產量要增加嘛！我給大家看一個圖，我們雞舍的這個，部長，你看看最左邊跟最右邊，臺灣蛋雞的每年產蛋量，最左邊的2016年跟最右邊的2022年竟然是一樣的，一年只生產了187萬顆，這代表什麼？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不對吧！"],["張委員啓楷：6年沒進步，是嗎？怎麼會不對？這是你們的網站……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有、沒有，你說一年多少？187萬顆，不對吧！"],["張委員啓楷：是多少？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們一天就將近2,400萬了。"],["張委員啓楷：數目是一樣的，最重要的是你有沒有發現左邊的2016跟右邊是一樣的，這表示什麼？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個是產蛋率。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！所以表示我們雞舍的升級跟產蛋量是確實不夠，另外……"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：日本365天幾乎每天都在生蛋啊！我們兩天才生1顆，大概51%嘛！這要從產量跟雞舍升級去做，好不好？這個我有明確的要求，你給我這兩個資料，訂定出增加多少禽舍升級改善的年度計畫，這要有個計畫，你計畫也沒有嘛！第二，要訂定出密閉式水簾禽舍跟非開放的產多少量，占我們臺灣總量的多少，好不好？這個我給你。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，我先跟委員說明一下，我們現在的產蛋率平均大概快七成，但是水簾式的跟密閉式的可以到八成、到九成喔！所以委員要求的沒有錯，我們要讓雞舍升級，現在雞舍升級裡面，從去年開始有213廠已經來申請了，有73廠已經開始執行了，但是每一個執行都要有一個輔導團隊去協助它，所以它不是申請了我們就給，因此後續一定有213廠會執行。"],["張委員啓楷：所以就是它到底有多少，你一年裡面要多少……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們會提供後續的資訊。"],["張委員啓楷：你就提供這兩點就好了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["張委員啓楷：最後我問一個簡單的，上禮拜我向你拿2022年中央畜產會自日本專案進口3,081萬顆，採購金額2億2,500萬的資料，你資料好了嗎？要給我了嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，上個禮拜開完會，我重新去檢視委員所要的資料，因為各委員也很多，那我覺得我們該提供的一定會提供，因為我個人覺得除非法律規定不可以，包括那個合約，沒有錯，第三方不同意，但是後來我看了條文，如果有適當的理由、如果農業部可以認定的時候就可以提供，我就決定會提供，因為我覺得我們不是因為要隱藏、隱瞞什麼樣的一個訊息，只是因為對法律上的規定的見解可能不一樣，所以我後續都會提供給委員。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝部長，確定了喔！一個禮拜內給我還是多久可以給我？"],["陳代理部長駿季：應該可以吧！"],["張委員啓楷：一個禮拜還是要更早一點？你已經……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我上禮拜已經……"],["張委員啓楷：你前幾天跟黃國昌、跟我在爭執的就是有第三方，他不給我，你現在解開了，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我現在把它解開了，但是相對的就是，我上個禮拜就跟他們講了啦！其實我現在最擔心的就是他們資料的核對，如果數字錯掉那就麻煩了，會讓人家覺得可能是因為誤繕的關係，所以我會要求他們資料要準確，然後才提供給委員。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這算是很大的突破啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：多久要給我？一個禮拜還是3天？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我儘可能一個禮拜給你，如果沒辦法給你，我們一定會事先跟你講是什麼原因沒有辦法做到，就像影片一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：你不是說已經突破了，怎麼還不給我？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，就像影片一樣，我沒有辦法馬上上網嘛！還必須去轉檔。"],["主席：部長，你不用這麼客氣，委員要的資料不要在這邊詳細到連什麼規格都討論，好不好？你們就要依循委員所需要的，你們的幕僚要跟委員去討論清楚，即使你的網站沒有辦法全部大翻，但是委員要的資料還是要給他，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：有。"],["主席：好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["主席：不要在這邊……大人不要在這邊討論那個，連規格什麼的……"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！主席在講的那個是我們在屏東作的決議嘛！"],["主席：對。"],["張委員啓楷：說要上傳，照規定來啊！"],["主席：對啊！上傳那是一定要上傳，好不好？"],["陳代理部長駿季：有。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，當然我今天還是要謝謝你，因為這算是突破了，好不好？我們已經追了兩個月……"],["主席：你看委員都很客氣。"],["張委員啓楷：我們跟你們要資料都不給，今天突破了，照這個規格給我喔！採購廠商名稱、採購數量及採購合約，一個禮拜。"],["主席：請你們的幕僚一個禮拜內去跟委員說明清楚。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好。"],["主席：但是有一項，我們到屏東考察回來作成的決議，委員當然會追，行政部門你們不要再推給……那是什麼單位？"],["陳代理部長駿季：畜產會。"],["主席：畜產會……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們沒有推啦！"],["主席：你今天是農業部部長來這邊報告，你們應該事先跟他們拿資料過來才對啊！對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，現在是檔案太大啦！"],["主席：那就這樣子，一個禮拜內要給張委員，張委員的個性大家都很清楚，會繼續追，本席也會繼續追。"],["張委員啓楷：對，追、追、追，會追到底。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝部長，也謝謝主席。"],["主席：兩個都很老實。","接下來請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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«農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":203.76,"end":203.78,"text":"案。」"},{"start":219.046,"end":238.975,"text":"兩千三百五十二萬然後委託加工的部分是三千三百六十七萬然後還有蛋餅調度的部分還有相關的行政費用還有消費的費用堆肥的費用這些東西加起來是十億我跟委員說明我剛才這些資料是透過我們因為會計帳最清楚會計帳最清楚那會計帳所列的這些項目"},{"start":249.924,"end":250.724,"text":"法院主席"},{"start":270.621,"end":293.019,"text":"我還是要跟委員說明,所有的雞蛋調度是由區長會,然後區長會提報計畫來,我們農業部從會計的角度去合這樣的一個經費的項目。那這個部分我想我們會後會提給委員,這沒問題。但是我覺得在這個時間點,我們會想辦法在我們的公開,就是我們的什麼?"},{"start":293.942,"end":294.743,"text":"短短短短短短短短"},{"start":311.974,"end":314.337,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":332.194,"end":359.341,"text":"我跟委員說明齁因為有很多東西都已經在去年度的那個官網裡面就呈現了就是我們都有定期的有進口我們就會把那個數量有個報表數量會增加進口國數量進口日期跟大案價格給我第二個我跟委員先說明齁因為你的進口日期變成每一批每一批那個已經屬於在調查了"},{"start":360.201,"end":379.852,"text":"我個人覺得說我們基本上我們本身現在目前的相關的規定至少對農業部我們有經過會計還有一些同仁去了解了以後是一個正常的行為當然沒有錯續產會本身有一些作業上必須精進的地方那如果說每一筆每一個批號都要去調那個是大工程"},{"start":380.612,"end":385.696,"text":"那相對的現在我們畜牧師我們還有很多很多的事情要做。我能夠給的我一定會給,原則上我能夠給一定會給。"},{"start":404.97,"end":427.604,"text":"讓民眾可以相信你的話,這個要求是非常清楚的。我相信民眾本身因為會計的報表是最精準,如果連會計報表都覺得不準的話,那政府的威信在哪邊?好,我們也看你的報表了,好不好?那另外一個很重要的就是那個去化過程,到底能不能招公信嘛。我剛才去看你的網站,有很薄啦,你訂那個白色的檔案。"},{"start":428.644,"end":453.837,"text":"現在今天有六天的檔案對不對?我還是沒有對不起我還是跟委員講齁整個過期雞蛋的消費有第三方全程的監控包括地方的衛生局地方的相關的那個人員還有我們部分的政府有一部分這個東西如果沒有辦法取得公信那什麼影片其實只是一個讓人家知道我們的過程"},{"start":455.899,"end":471.877,"text":"我承諾所以我現在因為因為他的檔案太大了所以我們現在想辦法拉成另外一個硬碟然後讓同讓需要的人去下載而不是線上瀏覽因為那會讓我們的憑光掛掉"},{"start":475.801,"end":503.819,"text":"實際上你最重要要分類啦就是要有日期然後有出來的倉儲跟那個去化廠跟整個數量好不好你目前已經有六天的量了對我們完成就會上去到這個格式你現在上去的是data啦就是還不是information嘛對不對那你就是要分類啊你黨名應該有個日期有個倉儲有個去化廠有個數量我跟委員說明齁我真的沒有辦法依照委員要求的這個黨名因為黨名一改因為黨名跟我們的檔案有分類的邏輯"},{"start":505.36,"end":521.672,"text":"但是相對的我們把影片PO上去表示說我們做了這些事情那如果說要根據你的日期倉儲企劃場數量那相對的我所謂的黨名要重改對,有日期有倉儲的地點對,我相信會讓人家知道還是很困難,我們來看什麼叫進一步的問題啦好不好再來,我問你幾兩件事啦事實上我們談那麼久"},{"start":534.292,"end":557.792,"text":"現在就是整個雞舍包括雞蛋的產量要增加我給大家看一個圖我們雞舍的這個你看我們在最左邊跟最右邊我們台灣的蛋機每年的產蛋的量最左邊2016年跟最右邊的2022年竟然是一樣的一年只生產了187萬顆這代表什麼?兩年沒進步嗎?"},{"start":562.031,"end":563.712,"text":"一、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":581.515,"end":606.003,"text":"這是產蛋率所以表示那個我們那個雞舍的升級跟那個什麼產蛋確實不夠人家365天雞每天都在生蛋啊我們兩天才生一顆嘛大概51%嘛這個要從產量跟那個雞舍升級去做好不好這個我有明確的要求我看一下上一張好不好你給我這兩個資料訂出增加多少禽舍升級的改善的年度計劃你這要有個計劃你計劃沒有嘛"},{"start":607.443,"end":620.053,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案："},{"start":632.563,"end":649.703,"text":"已經來申請了那73場已經開始執行了但是每一個執行都要有一個輔導團隊去協助他所以他不是申請了我們就給所以後續一定有213場會執行所以就是他到底有多少你一年裡面要多少年對我們會提供後續的資訊請問一個簡單的問一個簡單的"},{"start":653.107,"end":662.15,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第二條及第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會"},{"start":680.17,"end":697.743,"text":"我個人覺得除非說法律規定不可以包括那個合約沒有錯第三方不同意但是後來我看了條文如果有適當的理由如果農業部可以認定的時候就可以提供那我就決定會提供因為我覺得"},{"start":698.544,"end":708.585,"text":"我們不是因為要隱藏隱埋什麼樣的一個訊息只是因為法律上的規定的見解可能人家不一樣所以我後續的話都會提供給委員"},{"start":709.525,"end":716.786,"text":"我跟委員說明齁我上禮拜已經對我現在把它解開但是相對的就是那些我上禮拜就跟他們講了啦其實我對現在擔心的就是齁他們資料的核對"},{"start":734.195,"end":756.24,"text":"如果數字錯掉,那就麻煩了。會讓人家覺得可能是因為誤算的關係,所以我會要求他們那個資料要準確性啦,然後才提供給委員。我盡可能一個禮拜可以給你,如果說沒辦法給你,我們一定會事先跟你講,什麼原因沒有辦法做到。就像影片一樣,我沒有辦法馬上上網嘛,那必須去轉檔。"},{"start":761.821,"end":784.147,"text":"那個部長你不用這麼客氣委員要的資料不要在這邊詳細什麼連規格都討論好不好那你們就要運行委員所需要的你們的幕僚要跟委員去討論清楚即使你的網站沒有辦法全部大翻但是委員要的資料還是要給他好不好"},{"start":784.727,"end":785.647,"text":"二、本院委員"},{"start":800.154,"end":813.376,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第七條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案：立法院議員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具:「農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草"},{"start":827.199,"end":827.459,"text":"事務局局長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}