{"error":false,"id":["152526"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152526,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152526","日期":"2024-05-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-15T11:19:24+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-15T11:30:05+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:41","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0da52655d8ed31275881f4f1090bc66a5abc25b9e10ac7e450167b928e53ad9815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:19:24 - 11:30:05","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":811,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時19分）謝謝主席，有請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：主要是針對委員的提案，提案內容我看了，主要集中在第七條的部分，就是說這個基金的編列金額是多少，我看那個提案很奇怪，上面寫的是「應設置農村再生基金」，農村再生基金不是已經設置了嗎？110年就宣布已經設置了，對不對？如果真的要推動的話，應該是改成「應增加」對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：金額不管是3,600億分十年編列，或者是4,500億分二十年編列，按照財政紀律法相關規定，法律案要增加支出，必須具體指明彌補的財源在哪裡。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這不是你的提案對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，這是立法委員的提案。"],["邱委員志偉：這是立法院的提案。按照規定，立法機關制定或修正法規時，不得增訂固定經費額度或比率保障，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那這個部分會不會窒礙難行？如果通過第七條，不管是誰的版本，如果真的在立法院通過，會不會窒礙難行？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想財政紀律法本身已經規定了，如果這樣訂是違法的嘛！所以通過了以後，等於我們行政單位沒辦法做。"],["邱委員志偉：沒辦法執行嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為整個預算的編列是由農業部向行政院申請核定以後處理。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊，就違反財政紀律法嘛！你不能訂特別的額度，也不能訂特別的比率嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以第七條是審假的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：以農業部的立場，我們沒辦法支持這樣子直接明定……"],["邱委員志偉：你可以用折衷的方案，比方說你用中長期計畫，過去的1,500億大概什麼時候會用完？"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概116年。"],["邱委員志偉：那是一期、二期、三期、四期，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，第四期。"],["邱委員志偉：第四期用完大概就沒有錢了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概還有5.5億。"],["邱委員志偉：還有5.5億？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那有沒有第五期？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，以農業部的立場，我們還會繼續推，雖然基金……"],["邱委員志偉：如果要繼續推，你就不能用現在這個方式，不能用第七條的方式嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：因為你要先找到財源嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：現在沒有辦法用原來的方式，過去2010年我們制定這個法令有那時候的背景，所以你可以用中長期計畫向行政院爭取經費，或者用公務預算來支應，而不是用基金嘛，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以，如果有第五期，我們報院如果同意的話……"],["邱委員志偉：這樣是比較好的方式，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：彈性比較大。"],["邱委員志偉：最起碼你用公務預算，你去跟行政院爭取你們還有第五期，按照過去一到四期，視年度計畫第五期大概還要三、四百億，你要跟行政院爭取，甚至第六期也可以對不對？是不是這樣的意思？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，行政院同意的話還是用基金，只是用公務預算撥補基金啦！"],["邱委員志偉：所以有一個結論，第七條不管是按誰的版本通過，這是違反財政紀律法對嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：你們沒有辦法執行嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，沒辦法。"],["邱委員志偉：好，這樣很清楚。","另外有提案是說調整農村再生整體計畫的規劃體系，然後增加農業活化，調適轉型措施之規劃、執行、場域建置等等，這兩項目標你們能不能做到？"],["陳代理部長駿季：其實這個我們已經在做了，委員的版本是更明確的把全國性的農村整體計畫到縣市、到鄉鎮串在一起的話，其實是好事……"],["邱委員志偉：這是好的，對整體農村再生是好的，增加更多的元素，增加更多的方式，所以這個部分你也樂觀其成？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：你要趕快落實，今天這個提案如果通過之後，我希望你能夠趕快啟動相關作業。"],["陳代理部長駿季：會，一定會的。"],["邱委員志偉：另外我問一下，你們預計第五期大概就沒有錢了，第五期是從117年到120年，到時當然你就沒有預算了，第五期一定還要繼續再做，對不對？但是你不能再用基金，因為基金已經用完了，如果繼續用中長期計畫，你預估大概要編列多少錢？"],["陳代理部長駿季：以過去三到五年我們對農村的支持，大概一年要100億上下，以這樣的額度來計算，四年大概是400億的額度。"],["邱委員志偉：就是跟過去有農再基金的時候，第一期到第四期的基金規模是一樣的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，第三期也是四百多億，四年期四百多億。第一期比較少，因為第一期剛開始，以人力培育為主，大概是287億。"],["邱委員志偉：你如果有用公務預算或者中長期計畫來確保財源無虞，當然我樂觀其成，如果送到立法院來審議的話，我就全力支持。","另外，關於農再基金各期的六項指標，你要訂定一個明確的目標值，這些目標值包括有六項，你也知道嘛，我就不詳述了。有些是成績一年不如一年，以創造就業機會來講，第三期的時候才只有第二期的一半不到。"],["陳代理部長駿季：那是因為疫情的關係。"],["邱委員志偉：你要制定一個標準，針對就業機會，你的標準是多少？針對吸引青年留農返農這個部分，你們的目標值是多少？針對推動農再計畫，目標值又是多少？你要很明確，我才能針對你們的目標值去做管考，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解，我跟委員說明，這個指標其實只是第一層的，我們更希望像針對創造就業機會，後面帶出來的經濟效益是什麼，其實也要更具體的描述，我有請我們的同仁針對成效的部分，應該更具體說明。"],["邱委員志偉：對，這部分希望你們能夠改善。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外我想請教漁業署張署長，有關於綠色和平針對臺灣遠洋漁業的部分，它的一些影片或者它的一些說法，對臺灣的遠洋漁業是非常不公平的，我們有很多漁會也表達抗議，對不對？我們已經請他們下架，請問他們有下架嗎？"],["張署長致盛：跟委員報告，到目前為止還沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：還沒有下架？你們要有積極的動作，臺灣確實是兩度被美國列入強迫勞動清單，但是我們已經做了很大的改善，既然有改善就不能被恣意的抹黑，針對這個部分，根本就不是臺灣的漁船嘛！很多影片的內容都是中國無良漁船所作的肆意連結。現在你既然沒有辦法讓它下架，那有沒有可能協助相關的漁會，甚至用法律的手段呢？"],["張署長致盛：這個我們已經在研議中，因為這個確實對我們整個遠洋漁業的形象造成很大的影響。"],["邱委員志偉：當然啦！所以你要積極作為，你要協助漁會用法律訴訟方式，對綠色和平表示抗議，對不對？"],["張署長致盛：是。"],["邱委員志偉：如果勝訴，那你是不是應該匯集相關單位，比方環境部或者衛福部，如果綠色和平這樣子打壓、抹黑臺灣的遠洋漁業，其實綠色和平在臺灣也有組織，如果它日後的組織募款是對臺灣遠洋漁業不利的話，那是不是也要有進一步的管制作為呢？"],["張署長致盛：是，NGO組織其實有它的使命，但是它不能用這樣恣意抹黑的方法去影響一個產業，我覺得我們必須把這個事實向外面陳述，讓外界瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊，它已經影響我們產業的發展，行政部門要拿出你們的管制、約束或者警示，說你這樣的作法已經傷害了我們的遠洋漁業，你如果再不改善，那我們就用相關的作法，除了用法律訴訟之外，我會針對你的募款做一些限制或管控，這個你們應該去做啊！"],["張署長致盛：是，相關的方法跟策略我們整體來研議。"],["邱委員志偉：另外是酪農的部分，那天質詢之後，你們有針對酪農進行相關輔導，這部分我希望地方關注幾個重點，針對酪農的部分，畜牧司也有去，關於酪農輔導的中程計畫，這部分的進度跟內容要跟酪農做相關的討論。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我跟委員說明，酪農的計畫行政院已經核定了，但是核定的經費並不是我們原來提的29億，有一部分我們會繼續去爭取……"],["邱委員志偉：是多少？核定幾億？"],["陳代理部長駿季：大概18億左右。"],["邱委員志偉：29億變成18億，所以能夠做的事情就比較少了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：有一部分是針對前端除料的部分，我們會再去跟行政院申覆。"],["邱委員志偉：再爭取多一點，達到29億的規模。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們一定會往這個目標來做。"],["邱委員志偉：不管是18億或29億，你到底要做哪些事項要讓酪農知道。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，他們也希望政府可以補助省工的機器，這部分……"],["陳代理部長駿季：這絕對沒問題。"],["邱委員志偉：沒有問題？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這絕對沒問題，省工機器絕對沒問題。"],["邱委員志偉：預算也夠？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，省工機器也不用用到29億的本預算，我們還有省工的……"],["邱委員志偉：所以只要他提出申請就可以……"],["陳代理部長駿季：要看機型啦！要看他需要的機型，如果說我們沒有納入，我們就會把它納入。"],["邱委員志偉：那天召開協調會，你們到地方說明，針對地方所提出的建議，我希望你能夠在最短的時間之內把地方的建議予以彙整、執行，再跟酪農做一些說明。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們休息3分鐘。","休息（11時30分）","繼續開會（11時33分）"],["主席：謝謝。感謝徐委員。","現在請徐欣瑩委員做詢答，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","陳亭妃","陳冠廷","游顥","陳超明","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期經濟委員會第 12 次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員張嘉郡等 19 人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等 17 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、本\n院委員楊瓊瓔等 18 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":2.8153437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.814093750000001,"end":12.602843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.94034375,"end":14.273468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.02346875,"end":21.816593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.20471875,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.65971875,"end":30.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.69284375,"end":33.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.915968750000005,"end":37.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.26971875,"end":40.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.61534375,"end":42.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.31971875,"end":43.180343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.17596875,"end":46.875968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.213468750000004,"end":48.580343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.845968750000004,"end":51.516593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.92159375,"end":59.211593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.768468750000004,"end":62.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.565343750000004,"end":64.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.25284375000001,"end":68.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.66159375000001,"end":70.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.58534375,"end":80.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.81721875000001,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.84534375,"end":83.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.46096875,"end":84.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.53659375000001,"end":89.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.14346875000001,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.03346875000001,"end":93.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.24409375,"end":94.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.88534375,"end":99.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.47534375000001,"end":101.92221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.60596875,"end":100.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.65659375000001,"end":100.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.24284375,"end":111.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.38159375000001,"end":106.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.80284375000001,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.04284375,"end":113.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.02471875,"end":121.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.56034375,"end":126.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.63159375000001,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.42409375,"end":130.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.95409375,"end":141.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.32909375,"end":146.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.39659375000002,"end":145.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.82659375,"end":147.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.86034375,"end":147.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.75471875000002,"end":148.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.57721875000001,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.15471875,"end":154.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.30659375000002,"end":153.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.03221875,"end":170.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.10971875,"end":177.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.29909375,"end":175.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.72471875000002,"end":178.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.41659375,"end":179.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.46284375000002,"end":180.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.01534375,"end":183.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.53409375,"end":184.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.09909375,"end":185.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.52096875,"end":185.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.63909375,"end":185.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.67284375,"end":185.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.79096875000002,"end":185.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.80784375000002,"end":185.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.87534375,"end":198.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.76784375000003,"end":200.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.96159375000002,"end":216.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.36596875,"end":205.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.59784375,"end":210.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.53721875000002,"end":216.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.79034375,"end":224.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.58659375000002,"end":232.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.02846875,"end":238.407218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«農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":343.995,"end":357.837,"text":"有些目標值包括這個有六項你也知道嘛我就不詳述了那有些是成績一年不如一年創造機會第三期的時候才是第二期的這個一半不到"},{"start":359.012,"end":359.333,"text":"疫情的關係"},{"start":379.252,"end":394.844,"text":"瞭解,我可以說明,像這個指標其實只是低層的,我們更希望說他創造就業機會,那後面的就業機會帶出來的經濟效益是什麼?其實也要更具體的描述,這個我有請我們同仁針對這個部分,成效的部分應該更具體。"},{"start":396.885,"end":419.253,"text":"這希望你們改善另外我請這個月曙來這個張署長就有關於綠色和平針對台灣遠洋一夜的部分他的一些這個影片或者他的一些這個說法對台灣的遠洋一夜是非常不公平的那我們很多與會也表達抗議嘛對不對那我們有除了請他們下架之外他們下架有下架嗎"},{"start":420.995,"end":436.707,"text":"跟委員報告到目前為止還沒有還沒有下架你們要有積極的動作因為啊這個台灣確實是被美國兩度被列入強迫勞動清單但是我們已經做了很大的改善對不對但是有改善不能被恣意的抹黑啊"},{"start":437.387,"end":459.383,"text":"所以我希望說這個部分根本就不是台灣的漁船嘛然後這些這個很多影片的內容都是這個中國的無良漁船所做的肆意的連結所以你現在既然沒有辦法讓他下架那有沒有可能協助相關的漁會甚至用法律的手段呢"},{"start":460.365,"end":460.385,"text":"案 。"},{"start":485.899,"end":513.482,"text":"他如果綠色和平如果這樣子的打壓抹黑臺灣的羽陽漁業他綠色和平也是在臺灣有組織啊那如果他日後的這個組織募款是對臺灣的羽陽漁業不利的話那是不是也要有進一步的管制做人呢是NGO組織其實他有他的使命但是他不能用這樣肆意抹黑的方法去影響一個產業那我覺得我們必須把這個事實向外面來陳述他已經影響我們產業的發展"},{"start":514.823,"end":539.369,"text":"那你必須要有這個行政部門要拿出你們的管制或者約束或者警示說你這樣的做法已經傷害了我們園養業那你如果再不改善那我們用相關的做法除了用法律訴訟之外我會針對你的這個募款做一些的限制或管控這個你們應該去做啊是相關的方法跟策略我們整體來研議"},{"start":541.087,"end":563.99,"text":"另外落農,落農我還是覺得那天質詢之後你們有去落農做一個相關的相關的輔導這部分我希望說地方關注幾個重點我想這個落農部分這個薰牧師也有去你落農輔導的中層計畫這部分的進度跟內容要跟落農做相關的討論"},{"start":566.204,"end":587.804,"text":"對,我跟委員說明齁,就是若龍的計畫現在已經合訂了齁,但是合訂的經費並不是我們原來提的29億,那有一部分我們會繼續去爭取,大概18億左右,但是有一部分是針對那個整個前段的這些除料的部分,"},{"start":589.005,"end":592.509,"text":"我們會再去跟行政院去勝負。對,我們一定會往這個目標來做。是,了解。這個絕對沒問題。因為預算已過。"},{"start":611.587,"end":617.229,"text":"二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第二條及第十五條條文修正草案》案。adequate to the budget.對,省工機械也不用用到這個29億的本預算。對,省工機械也不用用到這個29億的本預算。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}