{"error":false,"id":["152534"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152534,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152534","日期":"2024-05-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-22","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":22,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-15T12:03:46+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-15T12:15:04+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:18","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c034e754548b1e093a96869206de9aca73abc25b9e10ac7e4576ce14608656604d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:03:46 - 12:15:04","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":847,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時3分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士、先生。有請司法院吳秘書長及法務部黃次長。"],["主席：好，麻煩秘書長、黃次長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是刑廳的李廳長也幫忙陪同，協助秘書長？"],["主席：好，麻煩廳長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，秘書長、次長，我的標題是「總統特赦權不影響司法判決」、「對不法所得之處分非刑罰，維持沒收」。我先看一下第1頁，這是1996年時任總統府秘書長吳伯雄說的，「國家元首行使赦免權，則是以行政權匡濟司法權之窮，為法治國家權力分立原則的例外情形……藉以緩和對立，促進團結。」請問秘書長，你認不認同這樣對於總統特赦權的描述？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我尊重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：總統特赦權會影響到司法判決嗎？可以事後影響司法判決嗎？可不可以？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些我們都尊重總統的職權。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，我沒有說總統的職權，我說這一段談話是1996年，總統府前秘書長吳伯雄所說的，你認同他這樣的描述嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當時吳前秘書長……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我尊重他的說法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問次長，你認為這樣的描述是否允當？"],["黃次長謀信：基本上，前半段是客觀的描述，它的確是一個權力分立原則的例外；但是後半段，它是不是有緩和對立，促進團結……"],["鍾委員佳濱：尊重他的看法？"],["黃次長謀信：這涉及到價值觀的判斷，我就尊重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，所以你認為其實總統的特赦權不能在事後影響先前的司法判決，是不是這樣？"],["黃次長謀信：它是一個特別的程序，當然會影響……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是不是司法救濟程序？"],["黃次長謀信：它是一個特別……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是再審？"],["黃次長謀信：不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：非常上訴？"],["黃次長謀信：當然不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都不是嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：當然不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實你要明快地講，因為我的內容就是根據你們的報告講，是不是？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：特赦權不會在事後影響司法判決，有沒有？"],["黃次長謀信：不會，它不溯……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有改變之前的司法判決？"],["黃次長謀信：不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以也不可能提冤獄救濟，不會嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：既成狀態不受影響。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，我要說的是，今天大家吵了那麼久，其實總統的特赦權不會影響既有的司法判決。過去三十年有哪些人被特赦？大家已經談很多了。根據赦免法第三條有兩個情況，一個是免除其刑，一個是罪刑之宣告為無效。我想請教一下這幾個案子，韓豫平將軍被特赦的理由，犯罪事實有沒有被推翻？請問次長，在特赦他的過程當中，有把他的犯罪事實推翻嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有，他的事實……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他不法且有責的部分有沒有推翻？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是總統府說，「為落實罪刑相當之憲法原則，顧念國軍將士服務軍旅之貢獻，以符應國民正當法律感情。」今天我們談國民的法律情感。秘書長，你認同這一段文字描述嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：總統府這樣描述我們尊重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，來，另外一個案子就不太一樣，蘇炳坤案的唯一證據是被刑求後的自白，請問這一個案件當中的犯罪事實有沒有被再次拿出來確認？請問次長，你覺得呢？本案他認為是個冤獄案。"],["黃次長謀信：它也是確定判決之後，罪刑宣告無效。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，跟前面的韓將軍一樣，罪刑宣告無效。"],["黃次長謀信：對，宣告無效。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是沒有變更之前的判決。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：總統府說這是人權保障，再審法官承認本案是冤案，秘書長認同嗎？再審法官自己這樣講。"],["吳秘書長三龍：總統府的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，這是我列出來的，我從新聞當中發現再審法官承認本案是冤案，為什麼再審法官會這樣講？我們推敲一下，因為該案的唯一證據是被刑求後的自白，已經沒有司法救濟的途徑，所以透過總統府以人權保障為由，給予他免除罪刑之宣告，是不是這樣子？好，法務部次長，你有沒有聽過，你們曾經承辦總統府跟人權委員會做的，叫做228或政治受難或者國家不法回復名譽證書頒贈，有沒有這個印象？"],["黃次長謀信：有，平復行政不法跟司法不法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼叫做行政不法跟司法不法？"],["黃次長謀信：有關司法不法，當時因為涉及相關的司法案件……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當時的司法可能有問題。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是回復名譽？"],["黃次長謀信：有很多回復他名譽的方式，譬如剔除前科資料的相關措施。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，總統是根據哪一個授權，可以頒回復名譽證書？"],["黃次長謀信：促轉條例上面有一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是促轉條例。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：促轉條例就罪刑已經確定的案件，不只免除其罪刑的宣告，還要平復、回復他的名譽，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，過去這幾個特赦案有沒有做類似回復名譽的宣告？沒有嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：赦免法只有大赦、特赦及減刑。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以赦免法也不涉及對於已經司法判決的罪刑……當事人的名譽有沒有給他回復？並沒有觸及，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：赦免法沒有這樣規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，這是今天的重點，法務部的書面報告說，大赦、特赦均屬政治之措施，均非否定原確定判決所確認之犯罪行為，此與經再審、非常上訴改判無罪性質上有所不同。請問秘書長，你認同法務部書面報告的這些內容嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這我們都尊重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你都是尊重，好，既然你尊重的話，我也是尊重。目前扁案繫屬中和判決確定的有幾個案子，我們看到了，大概如圖所說的。請問一下秘書長，可以對停審中的案件進行特赦嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我們尊重總統如何處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長，你認為呢？今天秘書長從頭到尾都尊重，我也尊重他。"],["黃次長謀信：針對特赦案件，本部的立場認為只限於確定案件。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["黃次長謀信：未確定案件不是射程範圍。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問一下秘書長，今天黃國昌總召問目前停審中的案件，你說要回去調查一下，馬前總統的三中案目前是不是停審中？停審是不是一種裁定？目前裁定停審的案件應該不會只有扁案一案吧？你告訴我，是不是不只一案？裁定停審中的案件不只一案吧？"],["吳秘書長三龍：應該有這個規定，其他被告也有可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我可以推論有很多案，是不是這樣子？庭長點頭，你說一下，是不是不只一案，有很多案？裁定停審的案子很多嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：裁定停審的應該不是只有這四個案子，應該……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問馬前總統的三中案是裁定停審，還是實質停審？"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分我們還要再去查一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴你，它是實質停審，還沒有裁定停審。大家都誤以為目前只有扁案有幾個案子停審，這個特赦會對停審的案子產生效力，沒有，對不對？確定釐清。","我們往下看今天爭議的焦點──特赦後的犯罪所得應予沒收，赦免法第三條只有免罪刑，罪刑宣告無效有沒有影響到沒收的程序？請問法務部。"],["黃次長謀信：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：它不是一個刑。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它不是一個刑，只是對不法所得財產秩序的回復，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長謀信：對，類似準不當得利的措施。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長，你同意嗎？沒收不是一個刑，也無法透過特赦免除，對不對？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對，它非屬刑罰。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以有不法所得仍須執行沒收的程序，次長，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很明確嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：確定判決的話。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看結論，沒收並非刑罰，免刑後仍應執行沒收，是不是這樣子？刑罰是對人的處分，沒收是剝奪財產，它並不是一種刑罰，你們的意見是這樣嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它不是一種刑罰，而是一種回復財產秩序的方法。犯罪人因為不法所得造成財產秩序的影響，要讓它回復到應有的狀態。"],["黃次長謀信：對，它是財產上產生的狀態。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它不是一個處罰，而是一個處分。"],["黃次長謀信：對，類似準不當得利的措施。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，拉法葉案有沒有成功追回不法所得？"],["黃次長謀信：有，追回非常多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛！花了多久的時間？"],["黃次長謀信：非常多年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：非常多年。"],["黃次長謀信：一、二十年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：拉法葉案我們看到的情況是要執行沒收，並沒有完成，它有沒有時效的限制？"],["黃次長謀信：沒收按照刑法有一些有時效的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，目前你們有機會跟社會說，扁案涉及還在沒收執行當中的問題，還無法沒收的時效如何？"],["黃次長謀信：現在扁案這個個案，確定沒收的部分都已經執行……"],["鍾委員佳濱：該沒收的都沒收了。"],["黃次長謀信：都執行完畢了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：假設有赦免的話，這些該沒收的不受赦免影響。"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後我們來看一下南韓總統的特赦案，這是其他國家的例子。南韓的法務部表示，政府會以人道考量，並期待以此促成南韓朝野「理性和解政治」為出發點，同意特赦原本應該一路關到2039年的朴槿惠。","最後我的結論是，今天有這個機會，我要再跟大家說一下，今天赦免權是司法救濟外的政治途徑，次長，你同意嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：它是一個特別的途徑。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長，你也認同嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我尊重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來尊重總統職權，讓爭議回歸歷史的評價。我覺得今天在社會上對於扁案，大家的爭議各有所持，但是今天我們讓歷史翻頁，當歷史翻頁之後，讓總統行使他的特權，用赦免權進行特赦的方式，既不影響既有的司法判決，也不會影響到既定判定的沒收的執行，那我們就讓它回歸到讓以後的人來進行歷史評價，我認為這就是我們今天討論總統是否對扁案行使赦免權的主要意義，謝謝兩位，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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罪行宣告無效跟前面的韓將軍一樣 罪行宣告無效但是沒有變更之前的判決好 但是 總統府說人權保障再審好 這是人權保障但是再審法官說承認本案是冤案秘書長你認同嗎 再審法官自己這樣講"},{"start":266.474,"end":294.431,"text":"沒有這是我說再審法官這是我列出來的我從新聞當中發現再審法官他承認本案是冤案為什麼再審法官會這樣講我們推敲一下因為該案唯一證據是被刑決後的自白但是已經沒有司法究竟的途徑所以透過總統以人權保障為由以免罪行之宣告給予他是不是這樣子好來在法務部次長來"},{"start":295.495,"end":304.683,"text":"市長你有沒有聽過你們曾經承辦總統跟人權委員會做的叫做228或者說政治受難或者國家不法的"},{"start":305.728,"end":331.982,"text":"回復名譽的證書頒證有沒有這個印象就平復行政不法跟司法不法什麼叫做行政不法跟司法不法那司法不法當時因為涉及到相關的司法案件當時的司法可能有問題那回復名譽是不是回復名譽他有很多回復他名譽的方式比如提出他的錢跟資料相關的那回復名譽總統是根據哪一個授權他可以頒一個回復名譽證書"},{"start":334.809,"end":337.391,"text":"請問一下過去這幾個特赦案有沒有做類似的回復名譽的宣告?"},{"start":353.888,"end":375.786,"text":"所以赦免法也不涉及到對已經司法判決的罪行當事人的名譽有沒有給他回覆並沒有觸及對不對好 所以說來我們看一下來今天的重點法務部的書面報告大赦特赦君屬政治之措施君非否定原判確定判決所確認之犯罪行為"},{"start":376.626,"end":402.213,"text":"此與今在審非常上述改判無罪,性質上有種不同請問秘書長,你認同法務部書面報告這些內容嗎?這我們都尊重你都是尊重,好啦,我也是尊重啦,既然你是尊重的話,來我們往下看所以目前貶案系數中和判決確定的有幾個案,我們看到了大概如圖所說啦請問一下,那麼秘書長,可以對停審中的案件進行特赦嗎?"},{"start":408.107,"end":431.633,"text":"這個 這個 我們其實是尊重總統如何來 次長你認為呢 因為今天從頭到尾我們秘書長都尊重我也尊重他特赦案件本部的立場是認為只限於確定案件是的為確定案件沒有 不是設懲罰那請問一下秘書長 今天有委員黃國昌董昭問說目前停審中的案件 你說要回去調查一下山中案目前是不是停審中馬前總統的山中案是不是停審中"},{"start":434.419,"end":434.779,"text":"財政事務部長"},{"start":447.714,"end":468.495,"text":"應該這個有這個規定應該其他被告也有可能所以你可以我可以推論說很多案嗎是不是這樣子聽長你點頭你說一下是不是不只一樣很多案因為裁定庭審案很多還是庭審應該不是只有這四案好那請問馬前總統的三宗案是裁定庭審還是實質庭審這個部分我們要再去查一下我告訴你他是在實質庭審他還沒有裁定庭審"},{"start":469.528,"end":491.566,"text":"所以這些大家都誤以為說目前只有扁案是有幾個案停審然後我們這個特赦會對於停審案子產生效力沒有嘛對不對缺點釐清往下看好請問今天爭議的焦點特赦後的犯罪所得應與沒收赦免法第3條只有免罪刑請問罪刑宣告無效有沒有影響到沒收的程序請問法務部"},{"start":493.33,"end":501.942,"text":"沒有,說他不是一個刑他不是一個刑嗎?他只是對不法所得的一個財產秩序的回復嗎?是不是這樣子?他不是刑嗎?秘書長你同意嗎?"},{"start":504.96,"end":527.507,"text":"沒收不是一個刑他也無法透過特赦來把免除對不對所以有不法所得人需要執行沒收的程序嗎是不是這樣子 次長是不是這樣很明確嘛好 所以呢往下看結論啦齁沒收並非刑罰免刑後人應執行沒收是不是這樣子刑罰是對人的處分沒收是剝奪財產它並不是一種刑罰你們的意見是這樣嗎"},{"start":532.068,"end":552.999,"text":"他不是用刑罰而是一種回復財產的秩序讓於犯罪人他因為不法的所得造成財產秩序回復到應有的狀態他不是一個處罰而是一個處分所以我們今天來看一下所以今天來看拉法業案有沒有成功追捕他所得"},{"start":554.821,"end":577.2,"text":"有嗎?花了多久的時間?非常多年所以拉法頁案我們看到的情況是要執行沒收並沒有完成它有沒有時效的限制?沒收按照這個司法規定它是有一些是有時效的規定的好那所以目前你們要有機會跟社會上說貶案所涉及到的有"},{"start":578.312,"end":606.902,"text":"還在沒收執行當中還無法沒收的實效如何?公文報告,現在平安這個個案已經確定了我們沒收的部分都已經執行完畢該沒收的都沒收了而這些該沒收的假設有赦免的話也不受赦免的影響?沒有錯好,最後我們來看一下這是南韓總統的特赦案這是其他國家的例子南韓的法務部表示政府才會以人道考量並期待以此促成南韓朝野理性和解政治為出發點"},{"start":608.282,"end":623.214,"text":"因此特赦的原本應該一路關到2039年的票警會好 最後我的結論今天有這個機會我要再跟大家說一下今天赦免權是司法救濟外的政治途徑市長你同意嗎他是個特別的途徑特別的途徑秘書長你"},{"start":629.611,"end":655.389,"text":"也認同嗎?我尊重尊重,好那接下來你也尊重了那我們來尊重總統職權讓爭議回歸歷史的評價我覺得今天在社會上對於貶案大家的爭議各有所持但是今天我們讓歷史翻頁當歷史翻頁之後讓總統行使他的特權用特赦的方式用赦免的方式對不起用赦免權進行特赦的方式"},{"start":656.129,"end":656.189,"text":"謝謝兩位 謝謝謝謝主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}