{"error":false,"id":["152548"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152548,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152548","日期":"2024-05-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-15T11:50:48+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-15T12:03:23+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:35","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0f17b3bc3eab8e45b881f4f1090bc66a5dc2a0f44cf1b72c510bd954f519c80315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"11:50:48 - 12:03:23","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1011,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（11時50分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我在5月9號發現我們新市有稻熱病，然後我也請我們相關單位下去看，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：我當時就要求要全面啟動水稻收入保險理賠，因為有這個強制水稻保險之後，我們是把它排除在整個災害救助的範圍之外，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：好。我們去現場看完之後，我之後也有跟署長說這個問題非常大，我到現場一看，看到我們的農改場和分署給了我這份資料說，我們所有的基準產量、各區的基準產量，我們是用這個基準產量來作為是不是理賠的一個標準，也就是今年的產量要跟這一個基準產量去比，如果少於兩成才可以理賠。","部長，我跟你說，這張啦！我今天還不是在種稻的人喔，我今天一看都知道這根本無法理賠，全部的錢都讓保險公司賺走了啦！你知道嗎？這個標準極低欸！他說用5年的坪割數，5年坪割數你知道它是去頭去尾，現在我們臺南……不要說臺南啦，我們的稻米生產是一年好、一年差，我們的「歹年冬」有時候還會連續2年耶！你去頭去尾有什麼用？你用5年的坪割數，然後坪割數下來，今年我要理賠了，整個數量一看都過低，這怎麼辦？我在當下就要求你們要去檢討，我也跟部長說了，我還親自打電話給部長，我說：部長，你這個問題很大，但部長說不會有問題。好，我現在就來聽，部長，哪裡不會有問題？"],["陳代理部長駿季：第一個，當推動水稻收入保險的時候，基本上一定要有一個產量的基準值嘛，這個基準值目前唯一有公告數據的就是農情調查裡面的水稻產量，這個水稻產量用5年的平均、去頭去尾的平均，它就是一個值在那邊。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，你是不是聽不懂我說的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對啊！"],["陳委員亭妃：你用5年的平均去頭去尾，它明明就一年好、一年差，或是連續2年、3年差了，你整個平均數就拉低了啊，你去頭去尾有什麼用？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，去頭去尾也會把高的去掉、也會把低的去掉啊。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯啊！可是平均就是「歹年冬」已經好幾年了，你把它去頭去尾有什麼用？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，去頭去尾在統計的標準裡面是一個合理的數值。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我已經說，在這5年當中已經有3年至4年本身很差了，你去頭去尾只是把這個標準的頭跟尾去掉，可是中間的3年還是不好啊，還是不好啊！在不好當中，你在這要不要看一下？你們署裡面有沒有給你看這個資料？你要不要看一下？在這裡，你看一下你的數字，這裡面的數字都過低、都過低！這一拿出來，我一看想說，怎麼會這麼低？這麼低之後，請問今年全臺南……部長，從新市之後，後壁傳出，現在官田傳出，現在新營、下營、柳營整個有種稻米的地方全部都淪陷，都是稻熱病、都空砲彈，全部都淪陷了！我現在就看今年有沒有辦法拿到補助？有沒有辦法拿到理賠？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，農業保險的部分，不是保險就想要拿到這個保險費，它是一個風險的概念，他如果降低到20%……"],["陳委員亭妃：少於兩成啊！兩成啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，如果少於兩成，他一定可以減賠啊。"],["陳委員亭妃：少於兩成啊！現在你的基準量就過低了，他怎麼少於兩成啊？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，這個基準量是他過去……"],["陳委員亭妃：他的基準量就過低了！"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個基準量是他過去的一個平均嘛，所以……"],["陳委員亭妃：過去的平均就是過低，那就是過低！"],["陳代理部長駿季：表示他過去的產量就在那邊了，所以他要比過去的產量更低到20%啊。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長你這麼講，你做代理部長到現在，520要升做部長之後，你講話怎麼會完全不一樣了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是……"],["陳委員亭妃：你怎麼完全不一樣了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，這個是……"],["陳委員亭妃：這是不一樣的！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，這個是專業的判斷。"],["陳委員亭妃：你應該去瞭解，這不是專業判斷，這根本就是保險公司把錢都拿走了，所以真的能夠拿到理賠……所以現在所有農民說：這樣我不要了，我不要強制被水稻保險，我甘願你把我納進去災害救助範圍。你知道這兩年他們拿不到耶，他們完全都拿不到！你們每次就要求說，因為你們是強制保險，政府幫你保險，所以你強制保險、納入到保險、你排除於災害救助。已經兩年了，今年情況更嚴重，去年就這樣了！而且現在是極端氣候。","部長，你知道嗎？你的農改場跟人家說：你就趕快噴藥。你在說廢話喔？什麼叫趕快噴藥？你知道嗎？依現在整個天氣狀態，馬上一陣雨來、馬上風一陣來、馬上又出大太陽，請問農民怎麼可以趕快噴藥？那個不用幾天，就一天而已，一天之後他們要趕快噴藥都來不及了，整個稻熱病這樣一批、一批、一批，全部都影響到！你有沒有到地方去看？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員報告，關於稻熱病本身的發生，有的品種比較抗病，另外，我們現在的稻熱病有一些預警的機制，我們也希望啟動區域的防治作為，那樣比較有效！相對地回到今天討論的主題，就是他如果產量過低的時候，我們會在坪割點的部分，就是產量調查的部分，在那個區塊去增加坪割點，這樣子他產量低的時候，百分比就可以有20%的機會，就是減產的時候能夠得到理賠，這是一個比較專業的，所以我都尊重這些專業的改良場去判斷的部分。"],["陳委員亭妃：我剛剛已經跟你講了，改良場都可以講這種話了，講說：你就趕快噴藥。那你跟我講他會有什麼專業？他的專業就是叫人趕快噴藥！我告訴你，農民不會管理嗎？農民會管理，是現在的天氣變化已經對他們造成壓力，他們已經來不及了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你今天說增加坪割點，我接受，就是因為他的產量現在已經受到影響了，所以增加坪割點，在各區增加他的坪割點，這個我接受，那要加到多少？比例當中……"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，這個要由他們專業來判斷那個區域的……"],["陳委員亭妃：你不要再說專業了嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我在這邊……"],["陳委員亭妃：我剛剛就講了，農改場都敢講這種話了，我會相信專業？我是說你一定要有一個標準，因為這個問題不是今天發生，如果你沒有在今天訂了一個標準、訂了一個狀態，未來每年都會發生啊，農民會對我們強制的稻米保險沒有信心啊！明明是我們政府好意，結果你知道現在地方說：我們不要，你們把錢退給我，我不要了啦！重點是政府直接補助給保險公司、直接繳的啊，又不是補助給農民，你知道嗎？好意今天變這個樣子耶！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我非常謝謝委員的這些建議，依我剛才說的，產量的基準目前是沒辦法去動它的，因為我不可能看到問題再去動這個產量的基準，產量的基準要用幾年或者是去頭去尾，這個部分……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，第一，現在因為事情已經發生了，當然我們不能去動前面的產量，因為這是一個制度，好！現階段是今年發生了，我們增加坪割點，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，增加坪割點，增加的部分應該讓地方各區農會或地方的農民能夠接受，這個部分是第一。","第二，就是要去檢討這個機制，因為這個產量的問題已經不符他們未來的理賠狀況，表示我們現在的制度是有狀況的、是有問題的，我們要重新檢討，你若要再繼續走下去，我跟你說，農民都翻臉了啦，農民說：這樣我不要，我不要你強制給我水稻保險，乾脆給我回歸到理賠機制，你給我災害救助嘛！會有這個狀況，今天我去會勘的時候，我告訴你，這個已經是臺南全面喔！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有全面，特定的地區。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有，就幾個地方……"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們瞭解的是特定地區。"],["陳委員亭妃：我告訴你，現在就是幾個地方，新市、後壁、官田、新營、下營、柳營等這幾個地方，那後續還會陸續出來，這個都是主要的產區喔！主要的產區都已經發生問題了，你說沒有全面？你活在自己的世界嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我絕對不是，因為剛才說的稻熱病，它是有一些特定品種的發生頻度會比較高；那有一些品種會發生，但是發生的頻度比較低。你如果去看，它的確是有稻熱病，但稻熱病的影響程度是不一樣的，所以我也尊重委員的……"],["陳委員亭妃：當然啊！這幾個地方都是我們親自去調查的，這幾個地方已經發生了稻熱病，已經發生了空砲彈，然後我剛剛所講的，部長，麻煩就是在各區增加坪割點，讓它整個實質的產量可以適時呈現，這個很重要。","第二個，要重新檢討所有水稻收入保險理賠的機制，這個機制是有問題的，你用所謂過去5年的產量，然後用今年產量去比較，這是有問題，根本沒有任何一個農民可以得到理賠，這個拜託一定要檢討，1個月，我不管，就1個月啦！"],["陳代理部長駿季：這個沒辦法1個月……"],["陳委員亭妃：好，那要多久？"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為農業保險的產量基準，那個牽扯到所有的保險都用同樣的制度。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，那要多久？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得至少要3個月到半年。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，3個月。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們來跟委員報告。"],["陳委員亭妃：在長期的部分，3個月去檢討出來；然後短期的部分就是這一次，我們臺南新市、後壁、官田、新營、下營、柳營這幾個地方，已經發生了稻熱病、空砲彈的部分，請馬上用所謂緊急處理的方式、補強的方式來做處理，麻煩你了。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們會增加坪割點去處理這個部分。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，增加坪割點來做補強處理，謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：是，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。部長，因為現在暖化的問題，包括我們待會要實質討論第七條裡頭的那一些項目，你也請你們幕僚再去盤點一下，因為現在暖化問題產生出來很多的不一樣，包括型態不一樣，我們好不容易通過保險制度，這個是我們大家藍綠白大家奮鬥有成，如果我們奮鬥出來的條文沒有辦法讓民眾拿到，這個就很難過了、就沒有意義了，所以你們跟保險公司可能還要再去討論它的項目、類別是什麼，要不然明明都拿不到、保險也沒有，則繳錢要做什麼呢？可能陳亭妃委員的重點是在這裡，所以趕快去盤點，謝謝。","接下來我們請陳冠廷委員，請作詢答。我們剛才說過中午就不休息，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","陳亭妃","陳冠廷","游顥","陳超明","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第 11 屆第 1 會期經濟委員會第 12 次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員張嘉郡等 19 人擬具「農村再生條例第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案；\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等 17 人擬具「農村再生條例第七條及第十五條條文修正草案」案；三、本\n院委員楊瓊瓔等 18 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他現在你的基準量就過低了他怎麼少於兩成啊!他的基準量就過低了!過去的平均就是過低那表示說他過去的產量就在那邊了所以他要比過去的產量更低到百分之二十啊部長你這麼講"},{"start":310.27,"end":335.887,"text":"你做代理保證的行政到現在要行政五里空保證之後你講話才完全不一樣啊你還完全不一樣啊這是不一樣的你應該去瞭解這不是專業判斷這是根本就是保險公司錢都花掉了所以真的能夠拿到所以現在所有農民說這樣我不喜歡我不要強制被水稻保險我敢問你"},{"start":337.108,"end":340.169,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":366.789,"end":371.978,"text":"而且現在是極端期齁部長你知不知你的農街長跟人家說你就趕快噴油啊你在講會議嗎"},{"start":377.782,"end":381.063,"text":"事由：審查：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會及第十五條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":404.708,"end":420.063,"text":"你有沒有地方去看?我告訴你,道德病本身的發生,有些品種比較抗病,然後另外就是說,我們現在的道德病有一些預警的一個機制,然後我們也希望啟動區域的一個防治的作為。"},{"start":422.125,"end":447.959,"text":"所以相對的回到今天討論的主題就是他如果產量過低的時候我們會在評割點的部分就是產量調達的部分在那個區塊去增加那個評割點這樣子的話他產量低的時候他就可以有百分比有百分之二十的機會就是減產的時候就能夠得到理賠這是一個比較專業的所以我都尊重專業的這些改良廠去判斷的部分"},{"start":448.885,"end":457.259,"text":"我剛剛已經跟你講了改良場都可以講這種話了講說啊你就看金朋友啊那你跟我講說他會用什麼專業"},{"start":459.534,"end":487.039,"text":"他的專業就是叫人家擬本院啊我告訴你農民農民不可以管理嘛農民可以管理是你今天你提起的變化對他們來說他們的額外已經做成了他已經不會付了所以你今天說增加平割點我接受就是他的產量因為現在已經受到影響了增加平割點在各區增加他的平割點這個我接受那要加到多少"},{"start":488.001,"end":514.727,"text":"這個我想由他們沒有 這個要由他們專業來判斷那個區域的你不要再說專業了嘛我剛剛就講了農幹場都開始講這種話了我會相信專業我是說你一定要有一個標準因為這個問題不是今天發生未來你沒有在今天定了一個標準定了一個狀態未來每年都會發生啊農民會對我們的強制稻米的保險會沒有信心啊"},{"start":516.311,"end":529.289,"text":"明明是我們政府好意,結果現在你知不知幾個地方說我沒來沒來,你錢拿回來,我沒來啊。重點是政府直接補助保險公司一隻肚子啊,不是補助給農民啊。"},{"start":531.294,"end":552.914,"text":"你知道嗎?好意變成今天變這個樣子欸!我非常謝謝委員的這些建議齁那我剛才說的齁產量的基準目前是沒辦法去動它的齁因為我不可能看到問題他去動這個產量的基準那產量的基準要用幾年或者是去頭去尾這個部分部長我給你一個第一"},{"start":554.216,"end":567.651,"text":"現在因為這件事情發生當然我們不能去動前面的彩蛋因為這個是一個制度好來現階段今年發生了我們增加評格點對不對是對增加評格點"},{"start":569.053,"end":569.973,"text":"一、本院委員楊瓊瓔等18人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":588.459,"end":596.486,"text":"所以表示我們現在的制度是有狀況的 是有問題的 我們要重新檢討你如果繼續走下去 我跟你說 農民都批評了啦 農民說這樣我不喜歡我不要你強制給我水稻保險 你乾脆給我回歸到我的理賠機制嘛你給我我的災害救助嘛 會有這個狀況欸今天我們去會堪的時間 我告訴你 這個已經是台南全面囉"},{"start":615.262,"end":620.105,"text":"沒有全面,沒有全面,特定的地區,我們了解的是特定地區。我告訴你啦,現在就是幾個地方,這個新市,然後這個後壁、關田、新營、夏營、柳營,這幾個地方。這個地方,那後續還會陸續出來喔。這個都是主要的產區喔。主要的產區都已經發生問題了,你說沒轉名。"},{"start":643.666,"end":660.84,"text":"你活在自己的世界嗎?我覺得不是齁,因為相關的,剛才說道德病它是有一些特定的品種它發生的頻度會比較高。那有一些品種它發生但是發生的頻度比較低。那你如果去看它的確是有道德病但是道德病的影響程度是不一樣的。"},{"start":661.26,"end":663.061,"text":"這幾個地方都是我們去調查的我們親自去調查的這幾個地方已經發生了盜熱病已經發生了空炮彈然後我剛剛所講的部長麻煩就是增加平割點在各區增加平割點讓他整個的實質的產量可以適時呈現"},{"start":684.669,"end":699.448,"text":"這個很重要。第二個,要重新檢討所有水稻收入保險理賠的機制。這個機制是有問題的。你用這所謂的過去五年的產量,然後用今年產量去比較,這是有問題的。那根本沒有領悟一個人的名單給你擬背的啦。"},{"start":704.666,"end":709.171,"text":"這個拜託一定要檢討一個月!我不管啦!就一個月啦!老闆你多久?好!多久?好!那多久?多久?好!三個月!"},{"start":720.001,"end":722.042,"text":"三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具 «農村再生條例第十五條條文"},{"start":746.149,"end":746.39,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}