{"error":false,"id":["152552"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152552,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152552","日期":"2024-05-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-22","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":22,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-15T12:48:41+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-15T13:05:09+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:28","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7786a6f84a6532c0473451ac94748abd96869206de9aca73dc2a0f44cf1b72c5468a1eea278b59595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:48:41 - 13:05:09","會議時間":"2024-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「總統行使特赦後，該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1067,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時48分）謝謝！麻煩請黃次長跟秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好！"],["黃次長謀信：委員好！"],["吳委員宗憲：兩位午安！最前面我還是先提一下，因為剛剛吳思瑤委員提到個案的部分，就是那個事情，我想我在這邊還是幫這些委員上一下法律課好了。我想這其實有一點是「欲加之罪，民進黨從未詞窮」，其實當天的狀況是我們有委員在討論是不是對於外交部提告徐巧芯的案子要叫外交部撤告，我則回說因為這個是屬於非告訴乃論之罪，只有告訴乃論可以撤告，非告訴乃論之罪的處理方式就是被告請告訴人或告發人具狀給檢察官不予追究，這不就是一般司法實務的處理模式嗎？我想在座很多法官、檢察官以前也是這樣處理的，所以我不了解說這個跟干預司法個案有什麼關係，我覺得他們把法律諮詢講成是司法干涉，這不是笨就是壞！我對王定宇委員還有吳思瑤委員就本件事情評論的見解是這樣。更何況外交部在這個案件中是屬於當事人，你請當事人去具狀表明不追究，這個跟政治力介入司法有什麼關係？其實我也是聽不懂。好吧！那就回到我剛剛那個結論，就是我覺得不是笨就是壞，我想他們應該也不會不懂這個道理，因為剛才吳委員有請教兩位這個問題，我就跟兩位說明一下狀況是這樣，這是一個很常見的司法實務的處理模式。","現在還是回歸到今天的主題有關特赦這個部分，我想請教一下，剛才你們已經有回復過其他委員，就是現在在任的蔡部長或是將來要接任的鄭部長目前都沒有接到府方的指示，對吧？"],["黃次長謀信：還沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：都還沒有嘛！那我先跟各位請教一下，假設今天真的有特赦的話，對沒收的部分會不會有影響？"],["黃次長謀信：跟各位委員報告，因為沒收既不是主刑也不是從刑，那我們特赦的範圍當然不會及於非刑的部分，所以它不會受到影響。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為這是人民很關心的部分，所以我想透過法務部這邊跟大家說明一下，因為這個將來執行的話是法務部那邊要執行。我們看一下111年憲判字第18號其實已經講得非常清楚，沒收新制實質上是不真正溯及既往，也就是說它並不會說不能沒收，所以這邊要跟民眾說明一下，即使今天總統對陳水扁以前的案子進行特赦也不會影響到犯罪所得沒收，請問一下這個結論對嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝！尤其是憲判字第18號也有講到這個不法所得其實沒有信賴保護的問題，所以這個不會因為被特赦而去沒收。我再請教一下，目前你們有沒有研究一下社會上對於到底要不要特赦，大家的共識是什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，特赦是總統特有的職權，所以如果總統沒有發動的話，我們要尊重總統的職權，我們不可能主動去做民意調查。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們有沒有先預做準備？既然有這個風聲出來。"],["黃次長謀信：我剛剛答詢的時候其實有提到，法務部就任何相關的法律上爭議，我們幕僚作業上一定都會蒐集相關的意見或做法律上爭點的整理，包含今天特赦這個議題，因為社會矚目，之前也有媒體揭露，所以法務部事實上有做相關法制的整理是沒有錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝！不好意思！我這兩天喉嚨不太舒服。這個部分可能也是要麻煩你們，我不知道說府方會不會請問你們對這個相關的建議，就是說依照以前曾經有過的特赦經驗，府方會不會去詢問法務部，請法務部提供相關的見解或是建議？"],["黃次長謀信：按照赦免法第六條規定，總統府的確是可以另轉本部做相關的研議，的確是可以。"],["吳委員宗憲：我這邊可能跟各位說明一個東西，其實對於陳水扁要不要特赦，我覺得當然是尊重總統的想法，但是我對於目前的制度比較有一點意見，因為陳水扁現在是保外就醫，剛剛羅智強委員也有提到，高雄監獄受刑人當初在搶槍自殺前，他們其實曾提出為什麼陳水扁可以保外就醫，但是監所內有比他嚴重非常多的卻沒有辦法保外就醫的疑問，其實在司法面前應該人人平等，那這公平性到底在哪裡？法務部能不能就這部分說明一下？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，保外就醫是不是要展延的部分，法務部這38次的展延其實每一次都有按照我們內部或者法律規定來做展延，他必須要提出相關的醫院證明或我們相當的訪視報告，每3個月來展延。"],["吳委員宗憲：請問法務部是受這些醫療報告拘束還是參考？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這其實是臺中監獄交由矯正署來做決定的，其實也不是到法務部。"],["吳委員宗憲：矯正署是法務部底下的單位，那我請教一下，醫療報告是拘束矯正署還是參考？"],["黃次長謀信：當然是參考，是事實認定的基準之一。"],["吳委員宗憲：其實現在有個問題就是，如果是參考，那因為他現在客觀的狀況有時候沒有辦法讓民眾滿意，因為他可以上政論節目、可以上台演講、可以開直播，然後可以走來走去，這個讓人民覺得他跟我們想像中的病情嚴重到需要保外就醫還是有個差距，我剛先請教的前提是，這些醫生的醫療評估是拘束矯正署還是只是得參考？如果是得參考的話，那今天認定的責任就在貴部了。"],["黃次長謀信：按照我們相關的規定，他提出的醫療證明是申請展延的要件之一，至於判斷准否當然要由權責機關做決定，它只是要件之一，而不是拘束裁量的決定，當然不是。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧！但是我要回過頭提到我剛講的，真的！因為客觀事實上其實民眾有非常多的質疑，那你、我包括秘書長，我們都是司法官出身，其實我們應該都很討厭政治力介入司法，傷害司法的公平性，如果說今天在司法面前，因為他是前總統所以他的保外就醫標準就跟一般人不一樣，我想不止是一般人民不能接受，司法官出身的我們也不能接受！所以有人問到要不要給陳水扁特赦，我就說，與其讓他繼續傷害司法，不如總統你要特赦就自己去背政治責任，我甚至會覺得是這樣。但是我的論點還是覺得這個保外就醫就是讓人民沒辦法相信嘛！我自己看也覺得有點莫名其妙，這個是我表達我個人的意見，也不是國民黨的意見。","後面還有一個問題要請教，之前3月26號我在質詢的時候有問過部長一個問題，我對蔡部長提到死刑執行規則的訂定上好像有一點問題，當時部長是跟我承諾要去修改這個死刑執行規則，我不知道這個部分他有沒有修改？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，在憲法訴訟法修正之後，我們對執行死刑規則部分有做一些文字的修正，這個我們有公告了，我們有進行預告程序。"],["吳委員宗憲：我在3月26號質詢的時候提到，從死刑案件執行實施要點到執行死刑規則有一個但書沒有抄過來，當時部長跟我說這個部分他會修改，因為這個是法務部就可以改的，迄今為止兩個月過去了，我還是沒有看到法務部修正，我上網去看到的還是舊有的規定。"],["黃次長謀信：我是說這個規則有修改，但還沒有完成法規修改的程序，現在正進行預告程序。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以這部分是已經修了嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對，因為法規修正有一定的立法作業程序，所以現在已經有在進行預告程序，預告程序完之後，我們要評估外界或民間的意見再決定如何的修正。"],["吳委員宗憲：請教次長，你的意思是說已經有著手在修了，只是還沒有完成？"],["黃次長謀信：有，甚至我們也聽了一些民間的意見，並找來廢死或反廢死團體表達對這個修正有什麼意見，後來我們決定一個版本之後我們就有預告，預告完之後當然又會有不同的意見出現，那法務部要再綜整所有的意見，再決定怎麼修這個條文。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝次長。因為很多人都說，司法權對於一個人下了死刑判決，法務部這邊本來應該要執行，但是它卻用規則裡面的一些東西去讓死刑執行一直延後、一直延後。我是希望不要讓外界認為我們沒有刪除死刑，但是我們卻用行政權去實質廢死，我希望法務部的作為不要讓外界有這個誤解，覺得法務部好像總是配合上面政治人物的想法，要達到實質廢死，所以我們條文不敢刪除死刑，那我就給你搞個實質上不執行死刑就好，所以已經好多年沒有執行死刑了嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，關於這部分，事實上這個要點從民國94年就一直延續過來，我們沒有做實質的修正，後來因為監獄行刑法修正之後，我們跟著把它修正成為「執行死刑規則」，實質上的內容是沒有動的，所以不是說法務部近年才把它增加一些障礙不去執行死刑，這個要點從94年就一直到現在。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，次長，你可能沒有注意到3月26日我對於部長的質詢，再麻煩次長回去看一下326我對部長的質詢，我直接show給他看兩個的比較，部長也覺得這個有問題，他說好，他回去修改，他是這樣跟我說的，當天的錄影你們都還可以調出來看。","確實當時執行要點有一個但書沒有抄到執行死刑規則去，導致當事人他可以一直不停地聲請大法官解釋，而且同一個理由一直聲請也沒事，所以當時我就跟部長說這個要不要改掉？既然你現在已經都用「執行死刑規則」，那你是不是要把它加進去？部長當時跟我說好，但是我現在看了兩個月，還是沒有改這個部分，這個東西是法務部就可以處理的，不需要送到立法院三讀，所以可能要麻煩次長回去看一下，那一天……"],["黃次長謀信：瞭解，委員這個問題的意思我也充分了解，是不是同一原因的問題，讓死刑犯用同一原因不斷地來拖延執行死刑嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：對，因為……"],["黃次長謀信：事實上，我剛剛跟委員提的，我們做一些公民意見的時候，這個議題我們也討論過，民間也是有不同的意見，也是有。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，我要跟你們講的就是，實施要點已經很清楚地說，同一原因不會讓死刑執行延後……"],["黃次長謀信：對，障礙性。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是在「執行死刑規則」的時候，這個但書不見了，沒有抄過來。那在我們以前念法律，舊法到新法如果有一個東西不見了，我們都認為造法者他是明示的這一個東西不要了，所以到新法的時候，它不會移植過來。所以當時我問部長，你們今天的意思是同一原因就會一直玩嗎？那部長也說好，他們回去會研擬，這個部分要修改。我今天是要問這個地方，因為到現在兩個月了，我看到法務部並沒有動作，再麻煩次長就這個部分來處理，我之後還是會繼續盯著這個部分。"],["黃次長謀信：好，這部分是109年監獄行刑法修正之後，的確，同一原因那個但書沒有把它抄進來，那當時有當時的時空背景，現在委員提到會不會因為同一原因造成聲請人不斷地來聲請，我剛才有跟委員報告，後來我們有不斷地尋求公民議事來解決這個問題，委員剛剛提的意見我們回去會再做處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝次長。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：那就這樣，謝謝兩位。"],["主席：因為今天有很多委員對於陳水扁保外就醫展延38次的核准許可，都想要知道到底這38次核准是怎麼核准法，是不是可以請法務部提供這38次每次的許可函，以及相關的許可理由給我們委員會？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，刑事上的理由當然可以，不過內容因為涉及到特種個資，就是他個人的診斷證明，所以這部分如果涉及到特種個資的話，我就沒有辦法這樣做。刑事上的理由我們當然可以給貴委員會，這沒有問題。"],["主席：這是屬於眾所矚目的案子，跟公益有關，所以我希望你們還是可以提供。"],["黃次長謀信：在可以提供的範圍內我們就提供。"],["主席：好，麻煩到時候提到司法委員會，給每個委員一份，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為這部分我剛剛有跟次長詢問，如果醫生的報告是拘束獄政組，那我們當然沒話說，是醫生要負責任，可是他今天的報告來只是參考，那法務部就要負責任，剛剛次長有說其實這個是參考，如果是參考的話，最後貴部還是有決定權嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：當然。"],["吳委員宗憲：那責任就是貴部要擔，所以我想要釐清這個，讓全民也知道，釐清責任到底在誰那邊。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","羅智強","陳俊宇","謝龍介","傅崐萁","林思銘","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","蔡易餘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝"},{"start":244.658,"end":272.649,"text":"那尤其是其實在判製第18號現判製第18號也有講到其實這個不法的所得其實沒有一個信賴保護的問題所以這個不會因為被特赦而去沒收那我再請教一下目前你們有沒有研究一下就是說社會上面對於這個到底要不要特赦這個大家的共識是什麼"},{"start":274.887,"end":289.106,"text":"各位報告特赦他是總統特有的職權所以這份如果總統沒有發動的話我們也沒有辦法我們要尊重總統的職權我們不可能主動的去做民意的調查你們有沒有先預作準備因為既然有這個分審出來"},{"start":289.687,"end":307.092,"text":"我剛剛答詢的時候其實有提到就是說法務部就相關的任何的法律上的爭議我們幕僚座位上一定都會收集相關的意見或做法律上的爭點的整理包含今天特赦這個議題因為社會矚目那之前也有媒體揭露所以法務部他事實上有做相關的法制的整理是沒有錯"},{"start":308.288,"end":332.93,"text":"好 謝謝不好意思我這兩天喉嚨人不太舒服那這個部分可能也是要麻煩你們我不知道說府方會不會去請問你們這個相關的建議就依照以前就是曾經有過的特赦經驗府方會不會去詢問法務部請法務部提供相關的見解"},{"start":335.145,"end":358.145,"text":"按照赦免法第6條規定總統府的確是可以另轉本部做相關的研議那我這邊我可能跟各位說明一個東西其實我自己對於陳水扁要不要特赦我覺得當然我們是尊重總統的想法但是我對於目前的制度我比較有一點意見就是說"},{"start":360.035,"end":389.367,"text":"因為陳水扁他現在是保外就醫嘛那包括剛剛也有那個委員羅志強委員有提到高雄監獄受刑人當初在搶槍自殺前他們其實提出來是說為什麼陳水扁可以保外就醫但是監所內有比他嚴重非常多的卻沒有辦法保外就醫其實這個在司法面前應該人人平等啊那這公平性到底在哪裡我想法務部就這部分能不能說明一下"},{"start":391.263,"end":393.164,"text":"法務部是受這些醫療報告拘束還是"},{"start":417.775,"end":437.709,"text":"參考根文報告他其實是臺中監獄然後就交由這個這個矯正署來做決定的其實也不是到法務部是好沒關係那矯正署是法務部底下的單位嗎那我請教一下醫療報告是居宿矯正署當然是參考的這個事實認定的一個基準之一那如果是參考的話其實現在有個問題就是說如果是參考那"},{"start":446.206,"end":468.439,"text":"因為他現在客觀的狀況有時候民眾沒有辦法沒有辦法覺得滿意嘛因為他可以上政論節目可以上台演講可以開直播然後可以走來走去這個讓人民覺得他是不是跟我們想像中病情嚴重到要保外就醫這個還是有一個差距嘛"},{"start":469.13,"end":480.645,"text":"那當我們我提就是我剛所以我剛先請教的前提是這些醫生的醫療評估是拘束那個什麼預證預證署還是"},{"start":483.925,"end":505.634,"text":"只是得參考,如果是得參考的話那今天認定的責任就在貴部了當然就是按照我們相關的規定他要提出醫療證明他是這個申請展言的要件之一嘛他這個要件當然他自己判斷準否當然是要由全責機關做決定他不會他只是要件之一而不是拘束"},{"start":506.514,"end":506.914,"text":"司法院秘書長、法務部長"},{"start":529.194,"end":543.03,"text":"他是前總統他的保外就醫的標準跟一般人就不一樣我想不是一般人民不能接受我們自己司法官出售我們也不能接受所以有人說要不要給陳水扁特赦我就 我跟你講與其讓他繼續傷害司法"},{"start":544.972,"end":545.873,"text":"後面還有一個東西請教"},{"start":566.806,"end":592.162,"text":"因為之前我在質詢的時候我有問過部長一個問題3月26號的時候我對蔡部長有去提到死刑執行規則他在訂定上面好像有一點問題那我不知道因為當時部長是跟我承諾在326的時候跟我承諾說他要去修改這個死刑執行規則那我不知道這個部分他有沒有修改"},{"start":594.037,"end":606.125,"text":"各位報告那這件事情規則部分我們有做因應那個憲法訴訟法的修正之後我們有做一些文字的修正這個我們有公告了我們有預告我們有預告這個有預告進行預告程序"},{"start":608.333,"end":623.79,"text":"因為我當時在執行3.26的時候在執行的時候我剛剛說從死刑案件執行實施要點到執行死刑規則的時候他有個但書沒有抄過來那當時部長跟我說他會把他這個部分他會修改因為這個是法務部就可以改的"},{"start":624.693,"end":640.372,"text":"那我想請問因為一直到現在兩個月過去了我還是沒有看到法務部改我上網去看還是舊有的規定對 這我是說這個規則它有預告還沒有完成法規修改的程序但現在進行預告程序它有修改"},{"start":641.601,"end":656.573,"text":"但是還沒有修改他進行預告程序所以這部分是已經修了嗎?因為法規修正他有立法作業程序他現在已經有預告程序預告程序完之後我們要評估外界或民間的意見再決定如何的修正"},{"start":657.613,"end":679.259,"text":"那請教次長說你的意思是說已經有著手在修了只是還沒有完成這個甚至我們也聽了一些民間的意見一些FACE或反FACE團體我們都把它找來對這個修正什麼意見後來我們決定一個版本之後我們就有預告預告完之後當然又會有不同的意見出現了那法務部要再重整所有的意見再決定怎麼修這個條文那謝議長因為齁"},{"start":681.86,"end":707.242,"text":"很多人都說啦就是司法權對於一個人下了死刑判決但是法務部這邊呢他本來應該要執行他卻用規則裡面的一些東西去讓這個死刑執行一直延後一直延後那我是希望說不要讓外界認為說我們沒有刪除死刑但是我們就用行政權去實質廢死"},{"start":709.261,"end":714.072,"text":"我希望說不要法務部的作為不要讓外界有這個誤解就是覺得說好像"},{"start":715.202,"end":740.318,"text":"法務部總是配合上面政治人物的想法要達到實質廢止所以我們條文也不敢刪除實行那我就給你搞個實質上不執行實行就好所以已經好多年沒有執行實行了嘛這部分事實上這個要點從民國94年都一直延續過來我們沒有做實質的修正後來因為監獄行刑法修正之後我們跟著把它改成這個修正成為執行實行規則實質上內容是沒有動的"},{"start":743.5,"end":759.574,"text":"所以不是說法務部近年才把它增加一些障礙去不執行死刑這要點從90年代一直到現在市長這個部分這邊你可能你可能沒有去注意到3月26號我對部長的質詢再麻煩市長你回去看一下326我對部長的質詢"},{"start":762.117,"end":781.057,"text":"當場部長也是說我直接秀給他看兩個的比較那部長也覺得這有問題他說好他回去修改他是這樣跟我說的當天的錄影你們都還可以調出來看確實當時執行要點有一個但書沒有抄到那個執行實行規則去導致當事人他可以用"},{"start":782.284,"end":802.567,"text":"一直不停的申請大法官解釋而且同一個理由一直申請也沒事那所以當時我就跟部長說那你這個要不要把它改掉既然你已經現在都用執行執行規則那你是不是要把它加進去部長當時跟我說好但是我現在看了兩個月還是沒有改這個部分但這個東西是法務部就可以處理的"},{"start":803.803,"end":830.313,"text":"不需要送到立法院三讀所以這可能麻煩次長回去看一下了解這個問題意思我也充分了解是否同意原因的問題讓死刑犯可以用同意原因不斷的來來拖延執行死刑嗎對因為事實上我跟委員報告事實上我剛跟委員提的民間的我們做一些公民的意見的時候光這個議題我們也討論過民間也是有不同的意見也是有好沒關係那所以我要跟你們講的就是"},{"start":831.403,"end":846.658,"text":"執行要點實施要點已經很清楚的說同意原因他不不呃不會讓實行執行呃延後但是呢在執行實行規則的時候這個但書不見了沒有超過了那在我們以前念法律"},{"start":848.039,"end":866.127,"text":"舊法到新法如果有一個東西不見了我們都認為這個是造法者他是民事的就是這一個東西不要了所以在到新法的時候他不會移植過來所以當時我問部長就是那你們今天的意思是同一原因繼續就會一直玩嗎那部長也說好那他們回去會研擬這個部分要修改"},{"start":866.627,"end":893.858,"text":"那我是我今天就要問這個地方因為現在兩個月了因為我看到法務部並沒有動作那再麻煩次長就這部分處理因為我可能我之後還是會繼續盯著這個部分好那這部分是109年那個監獄刑事法修正之後的確在同意原因那個單書沒有把它抄進來那當時有當時時空背景那現在委員提的但是會不會因為同意原因造成申請人不斷的來申請那後來我們有我剛才跟委員報告我們有不斷的尋求公民意識來解決這個問題"},{"start":895.379,"end":896.159,"text":"請法務部提供38次的許可函以及相關的許可理由給委員會"},{"start":927.061,"end":942.853,"text":"跟委員報告他那個形式上的理由當然可以但因為內容他涉及到特種個資就是他個人的診斷證明啦所以這部分如果涉及到特種個資的話我就沒有辦法診斷那形式上他的理由我們當然可以給貴委員會這沒有問題"},{"start":943.974,"end":950.298,"text":"因為這部分我剛剛有跟上就是詢問嘛如果醫生的報告是拘束預證署那我們當然沒話說是醫生要負責任可是他今天的報告來只是參考那今天法務部就要負責任那剛剛次長有說其實這個是參考"},{"start":973.37,"end":986.761,"text":"那如果是參考的話那最後其實貴部還是有這個決定權嘛那責任就是貴部要擔啦所以其實我想要釐清這個讓全民也知道釐清責任到底在誰那邊"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}