{"error":false,"id":["152567"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152567,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152567","日期":"2024-05-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-16T09:30:49+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-16T09:40:05+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:16","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30bf37b1b3a008f091be5ec193467b1025e01ba30ddb4afe0f4b6c22afa25882645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:30:49 - 09:40:05","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":122,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時30分）主席，麻煩請財政部阮次長。"],["主席：有請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：您早。今天要處理的是跟馬紹爾的雙邊經貿，也就是臺馬經濟合作協定，總共有2,965項農工產品要降為零，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：降為零。"],["吳委員秉叡：那是因為關稅……我要請教，我們跟馬國之間的貿易金額是多少？"],["阮次長清華：貿易金額是這樣的，我們進口的很少，大概都幾百萬……"],["吳委員秉叡：幾百萬是美金計價吧？"],["阮次長清華：對，美金計價。但出口很大，我們去年就大概有79億，前年131億。"],["吳委員秉叡：主要是賣什麼？"],["阮次長清華：最主要是工業產品，還有漁船、漁網等相關的……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以這是基於我們跟他的外交關係。另外，因為訂定經濟協定，我們把關稅降為零，對於我們跟馬國之間的經貿合作，以及我們本來就是一個出超的……跟馬國比起來，我們對他是出超的大國，所以要有一些減讓？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們現在來看臺美之間的貿易協定─21世紀貿易倡議……"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：臺美21世紀貿易倡議不是已經大有進展？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：將來可能會繼續再往前走的話……"],["阮次長清華：會再往前走。"],["吳委員秉叡：對我們會很有利。同時，歐洲呢？對歐洲的狀況呢？臺美既然可以談，那麼歐洲也是我們未來一個很重要的貿易夥伴啊？"],["阮次長清華：是，歐洲現在可以講是我們的第四大了……"],["吳委員秉叡：跟歐洲之間有沒有在進行？"],["阮次長清華：是這樣子的，因為歐盟比較複雜，歐盟有很多會員國，且簽訂相關的經貿投資或協定係專屬於歐盟執委會的職權，如果執委會沒有授權的話是沒辦法進行的，所以這個案子比較棘手，但我們在繼續努力當中。"],["吳委員秉叡：謝謝你，請回座。我要請環境部呂簡任技正。"],["呂簡任技正澄洋：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：碳稅這幾年在臺灣非常夯，大家都在討論。這幾天有媒體報導說會延後課徵，有這樣事嗎？"],["呂簡任技正澄洋：目前進行到第三次的委員會議，以進度來講，還是會尊重委員會決議。"],["吳委員秉叡：碳稅的課徵要不要伴隨著碳權交易？這兩個有沒有直接的相關關係？"],["呂簡任技正澄洋：假如是碳稅的話，可能關係會比較直接，我們目前是就碳費部分來收費，兩者還是有一點差別。"],["吳委員秉叡：這是走歐盟要求的模式。我跟你說，現在美國總統正在大選，兩個總統候選人的理念天南地北，你知道嗎？"],["呂簡任技正澄洋：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：目前拜登對於碳交易及碳稅很重視，民主黨從高爾一路以來都是如此，認為地球要毀滅，溫室效應怎麼樣、怎麼樣，一直在弄這個。我跟你說，這是一門好生意，所以有很多的美國名人，像比爾蓋茲買了一大堆農場，準備將來從這方面，至少在碳權的交易上可以大有斬獲，媒體也有這樣的報導。可是另外一方面，川普是持不同的想法，他完全不認同這一套，他在公開演講時表示，碳這個問題是一個假議題，這當然是兩個極端啦。可是11月就要掀牌了，究竟是拜登連任，或是川普又重新當選呢？這個都會影響到美國對於碳以及碳稅、碳權問題的態度，如果美國不願意照歐盟的腳步走，認為碳是一個假議題，川普總統當選的話，那臺灣的處境會怎麼樣？我們要跟著歐盟走嗎？你知道加這個東西對我們的製造成本會增加很多耶。"],["呂簡任技正澄洋：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：當我們的製造成本加很多，而別的國家沒有一致標準的時候，那就是為難到我們臺灣的製造業喔，到時候中國不遵守，美國不遵守，假設川普當選的話，其他的大國不遵守，偏偏抓我們臺灣要來遵守，這樣對臺灣的製造業來講，不是會增加非常多的成本嗎？這個問題怎麼辦？"],["呂簡任技正澄洋：跟委員報告，因為在我們的審議會裡面，基本上是有各方的專家，包含經濟層面的專家，還有代表，其實這些問題應該會以這些專家的意見來一併納入討論。"],["吳委員秉叡：那就是納入討論，到時候萬一我講的那個情況發生，那就很好笑，臺灣的產品還要加上碳的成本，然後別的大國、製造業，甚至有競爭關係的國家不用遵照這個，碳的成本不用再加進去。本來我們在國際貿易上面，臺灣的製造商跟全世界其他國家相比，我們就已經很辛苦了，因為我們被中國打壓的關係，很多國際組織進不去，所以我們的關稅很多地方都比人家高，如果自己還把這個碳再把它加進去，那你叫臺灣的製造業如何生存？臺灣的製造業生存困難的話，代表臺灣在就業上面會吃虧啊！"],["呂簡任技正澄洋：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：像現在無論是日本，無論是美國，他們現在重要的作法都是要製造業回歸，在他們的國家製造，這樣他們的就業市場才能夠很強韌嘛，所以我覺得這個問題……","另外，我有請教過人家關於碳稅交易、碳的交易，問過當初要定的這些比較基層的公務員，我問他們說，你們瞭解現在碳定得怎麼樣嗎？差不多都捉不到重點啦，他們不瞭解這是什麼東西，就是政策上面。我跟你說，政治自古先知都是寂寞的，因為所謂的政治應該是走在眾人前一步，讓大家看得到，可以跟隨啦，如果走在眾人前一百步、一千步，人家看不見你的話，這叫先知啊，先知是沒有辦法搞政治的。將來面對這樣的處境，我不知道要如何收拾，我舉一個例子，過去曾經要求2030年所有燃油的機車全部都不能生產，後來是引起機車公會多大的反彈，大量的抗爭，政策才又轉彎，我擔心會不會出現這樣的狀況。"],["呂簡任技正澄洋：感謝委員的提醒啦，這一塊我們還是會密切注意國際的情勢發展。"],["吳委員秉叡：國際的情勢發展，我當然知道是用很先進的標準來要求我們，然後我們自己也很偉大，但是在你那個要求之下，很多的成本就是要我們基層製造業的這些企業、小企業主去承擔。臺灣的小企業主跟大財團、這些大企業不太一樣，他們沒有那麼大的能力去承擔這些東西，它跟人家計較的利潤可能是2%、3%，但這樣就要跟人家拚了，這個部分我覺得是一個大哉問。","不是說因為你是環境部就一定要支持碳稅、碳權，要百分之百支持，不是喔，我也不是反對，我是要讓你注意到，這個問題全世界有很多不同的看法，還沒有到那麼一致。如果全世界大家都同樣要求，那臺灣也被要求，我覺得很合理，但如果很多國家是不用的，只有臺灣自己說，因為我是地球公民，我要承擔比所有人都要大的責任，所以我自願來承擔這個。我是要跟你講，坐在辦公桌裡面的人不感覺，在工廠裡面第一線工作的中小企業老闆，他們受不了啊！這個問題要多多思考，加油。"],["呂簡任技正澄洋：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（賴委員惠員代）：謝謝吳秉叡委員。","接著請郭國文委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-12","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","賴士葆","羅明才"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案（後接第三冊）","agenda_id":"1134602_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.45596875,"end":9.497843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.68346875,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.117218750000003,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.134093750000002,"end":15.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.15096875,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.43346875,"end":18.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.52159375,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.04034375,"end":23.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.145343750000002,"end":26.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.305343750000002,"end":28.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.65096875,"end":30.051593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.43971875,"end":32.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.768468750000004,"end":34.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.64596875,"end":33.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.18596875,"end":35.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.94096875,"end":36.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.78471875,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.45909375,"end":60.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.492843750000006,"end":42.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.47534375,"end":46.032218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.03846875000001,"end":66.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.40034375,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.96534375,"end":72.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.42034375,"end":80.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.7609687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別的國家沒有一致的標準的時候那就是為難到我們臺灣的製造業那到時候中國不遵守 美國不遵守假設川普當選的話 其他大國不遵守偏偏抓我們臺灣要來遵守那這樣對臺灣的製造業來講 不是會加了非常多的成本嗎這個問題怎麼辦"},{"start":320.943,"end":349.45,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們的選議會裡面基本上是有各方的專家包含經濟這一塊的層面的專家還有代表那其實在這些問題應該會一併就以這些專家意見來一併納入討論那就是納入討論到時候如果萬一我講我講的情況發生那就很好笑就台灣的產品還加上碳的成本然後"},{"start":350.213,"end":373.865,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡"},{"start":374.264,"end":397.239,"text":"那如果自己還把這個碳再把它加進去 那你叫台灣的製造業要如何生存台灣的製造業困難生存的話 就代表台灣的就業上面會吃虧啊那像現在無論是日本無論是美國 重要的都是要製造業回歸在他們的國家製造 這樣他們的就業市場才能夠很強韌嘛"},{"start":399.27,"end":423.53,"text":"所以我覺得這個問題另外我有請教過人家碳稅交易碳的交易吼問過當初要訂的這些比較基層的公務員問他們說你們現在瞭解中央人家碳訂的怎麼樣差不多都都三百萬啦他們不瞭解這是什麼東西就政策上面我跟你說政治吼自古先知都是寂寞的"},{"start":424.713,"end":450.855,"text":"所謂的政治應該是走在眾人前一步讓大家看得到可以跟隨啦如果走在眾人前一百步一千步人家看不見你的話這叫先知啊那先知是沒有辦法搞政治那這個將來面對這樣的處境我不知道要如何收拾我舉個例子過去曾經2030年要求所有的排油的機車全部都不能生產"},{"start":452.264,"end":461.108,"text":"後來是引起機車公會奪到的反彈大量的抗爭政策又轉彎我擔心會不會出現這樣的狀況這個感謝委員的提醒我們這一塊我們還是會密切注意國際的情勢發展國際的情勢發展"},{"start":474.687,"end":502.258,"text":"我當然知道用很先進的標準來要求我們啊我們自己很偉大但是你那個要求之下很多的成本就是要我們的基層的製造業的這些企業小企業主要承擔台灣的小企業主跟大財團這些大企業不太一樣他們沒有那麼大的能力去承擔這些東西他的跟人家的績效的利潤可能是2%3%但在那邊就是要跟人家拼了"},{"start":503.847,"end":527.567,"text":"這個我是覺得這是一個大災的問題不是說因為你是環境部就一定要支持碳稅 碳權 要百分之百支持 不是喔 我是要讓你 我也不是反對 我是要讓你注意到 這個問題全世界有很多不同的看法還沒有到那麼一致說 如果全世界大家都同樣要求 那台灣也被要求 我覺得很合理"},{"start":528.763,"end":555.555,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}