{"error":false,"id":["152579"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152579,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152579","日期":"2024-05-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-16T09:40:13+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-16T09:51:20+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:07","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc309024c031b83ea135be5ec193467b1025e01ba30ddb4afe0fae5225588713dd165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:40:13 - 09:51:20","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":167,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時40分）謝謝主席，有請阮次長。"],["主席：好，我們請財政部阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：次長好。次長，本席在週一的時候有舉辦一個會勘，這次會勘是針對整個財政部所屬的金融機構跟相關機關的文化資產，很遺憾的，三年前本席在擔任召委的時候，也曾經進行過一次類似的會勘，但是那一次不論是關務署也好，或臺銀北投的宿舍區也好，基本上這三年並沒有具體的進度。其實就這件事情當中，本席非常的感慨，也深深的體會到，其實財政部只對金融資產有興趣，對文化資產顯得相對的沒有那麼高的重視，不至於到漠視啦，因為你們還是有去修復，還不只有修復，但是文化資產可貴的地方不是在於把它修復而已，而是把它活化，次長，你同意本席的看法嗎？"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員，我知道委員對文化資產的重視，文化的確是我們的根，所以這個是很重要的一部分。"],["郭委員國文：是，沒有錯。"],["阮次長清華：所以像臺銀，其實我們一直督導它，就有關的那些古蹟都逐一的修復，現在問題是他們在過去的三年，其實我一直都跟呂董事長在溝通啦，他們一直都在招標，但已經流標很多次。前幾天剛好就是委員去考察之後，我又再跟他討論，我說是不是用別的方式，以更有創新性的方式，請學者專家提供一些見解，那我們來看看用什麼方式可以儘量來活化。"],["郭委員國文：次長，有太多的方式可以招標了，包括你積極的去邀標，很多方法嘛，對不對？公部門如果連招標都沒有辦法進行的話，那跟態度有所關聯啦！你想一想，整個公股銀行跟民間的銀行相比，最大的特色在哪裡？就是我們擁有許許多多的文化資產，包括歷史建築，包括市定古蹟，包括國定古蹟，這不勝枚舉啊。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["郭委員國文：你保存好這些文化資產，基本上不但是公股銀行的特色，那也是公股銀行、相關機構的一種社會責任。"],["阮次長清華：完全贊同、完全贊同。"],["郭委員國文：對，這樣的情況底下，我要問一下，財政部有專責的人員或另外有思考到預算的編列，考量到這些文化資產的維護嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，如果是事業機構的話，像臺銀都有編預算，現在目前主要的古蹟都完成了。"],["郭委員國文：那財政部部本部呢？"],["阮次長清華：至於合庫的部分，我那一天也跟董事長講，要他儘快把三樓跟四樓的部分完成。"],["郭委員國文：你知道國有財產署還沒有想要盤點耶！"],["阮次長清華：另外，國產署……"],["郭委員國文：國有財產署很多地方的宿舍……"],["阮次長清華：對，我等一下再跟……"],["郭委員國文：都是一定年代以上，那個都應該被列為文化資產身分，這部分要如何去進行保存？"],["阮次長清華：是、是、是，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：動不動隨便查，在臺北就一大堆了！"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員先一項一項報告，關務署那個北投育成中心是經費的問題，我會儘量來協調，看能不能處理……"],["郭委員國文：你們會協調、會處理、會面對？將近1億！你不要期待臺北市政府去跟你無償撥管。"],["阮次長清華：我們來努力啦。"],["郭委員國文：臺北市政府算盤算得準啦，雖然現在都不用算盤，用CPU、用電腦啦。"],["阮次長清華：我們會拜託文化部那邊來協助，但是我們這邊自己也要努力啦。"],["郭委員國文：你們部本部要去面對這個問題！"],["阮次長清華：我們會編預算啦。"],["郭委員國文：彭署長，是不是請次長來面對這個問題，好好處理一下？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["郭委員國文：你們110年以上的這種溫泉招待所，是日治時期的，臺灣罕見啊，居然放在那邊任由荒廢！這真的是完全沒有道理啊，我不要說沒有天理，但這完全沒有道理啊。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員的指教，其實我是古蹟迷啦，老實講，我對古蹟真的非常重視啦。"],["郭委員國文：那你的重視要表現給本席看啊！"],["阮次長清華：這的確涉及到經費的問題，真的是……"],["郭委員國文：好，那這樣子，請你們用具體的行動來表示你的重視啦，第一個，你要清查財政部所屬公股銀行相關機關具有歷史身分的所有建築物，你要清查一份。"],["阮次長清華：好，這個沒問題。"],["郭委員國文：第二個，你要如何維護這些文化資產進而活用，你要寫一份報告。"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["郭委員國文：第三，關於整個預算的籌措，你要將具體時程及項目的編列列舉出來，可以吧！"],["阮次長清華：可以。另外我順便跟委員報告，其實事業單位那一部分反而相對單純，我覺得最主要就是國產署那一部分，它有接了三百四十三項……"],["郭委員國文：相對單純不一定做得好，我跟你講。"],["阮次長清華：我只是說相對，我的意思是說國產署接了三百四十三項，那才是大問題，為什麼？因為古蹟的修復……"],["郭委員國文：那署長來表示一下。"],["阮次長清華：我請署長來說明。"],["曾署長國基：報告委員，國產署經管的有三百四十三處，大概在兩、三年前，我們有跟文化部做了全省的總盤查……"],["郭委員國文：你是文化資產大戶耶！"],["曾署長國基：對，我們有做過全部的盤查，然後分類的處理方式，目前也編列了中長程計畫，這一期是到116年，我們編列了八億多，目前在做修復的部分大概有七、八處，已經完成的就是三山國王廟花了4,900萬……"],["郭委員國文：署長，你老是在公開招標，出去的金額你看有多少？少則數億、多則數百億啊！"],["曾署長國基：是，所以……"],["郭委員國文：撥出一筆錢來做文化資產，來處理國有財產署轄下的這些文化資產，難道沒有辦法嗎？"],["曾署長國基：報告委員，針對國有財產我們現在都有編列預算經費……"],["郭委員國文：要編多一點啦！"],["曾署長國基：明年是1億，本來是到兩億多，後來考慮到整個執行……"],["郭委員國文：我每次走在臺北街頭，看到這棟宿舍在那邊荒廢，我就說這一定是曾署長的。"],["曾署長國基：跟委員報告，不見得啦，就是說有一些老舊的房子……"],["郭委員國文：不見得嗎？你的嫌疑最大啦！"],["曾署長國基：我們現在也有一些標給包租代管業，譬如我們下個月就要公告我們有五十六處……"],["郭委員國文：有些東西可以進行社會住宅活化標租出去……"],["曾署長國基：都有在做……"],["郭委員國文：有些是進行標售，有些是應該予以活用，針對這部分，我看署長另外做一個報告給我好了，針對整個部的是次長，可以嗎？"],["曾署長國基：好，我們另外做一個報告，沒問題。"],["郭委員國文：好，那我接下來問一下次長，你知道針對臺美租稅協定，美國眾議院在1月31號已經表決通過了，但是參議院還沒有。就我的理解，通過的時候其實是用包裹方式在美國家庭及勞工稅收的減免法案當中，就這個部分，我們6月真的能夠簽訂嗎？有辦法嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我覺得因為美國剛好在大選，然後這個案子……"],["郭委員國文：對啊，部長當初誇下海口說6月就可以簽訂。"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，的確眾議院通過了，但是到了參議院的時候，因為它有一個載具，那個載具涉及到勞工減免稅的問題，但是勞工減免稅的部分一直喬不攏，所以就卡在那個地方，所以現在還在努力。"],["郭委員國文：卡在那邊？卡在參議院裡頭的政黨協商？"],["阮次長清華：在參議院那邊。"],["郭委員國文：卡在參議院那邊，然後卡多久你也很難判斷。"],["阮次長清華：我們的駐處一直都很努力。"],["郭委員國文：所以6月的簽署就有變數了？"],["阮次長清華：已經有積極去溝通，但我覺得很多東西的主動權在他們那邊。"],["郭委員國文：第一個，時程出現問題；第二個，我問內容的部分，因為臺灣是肥咖條款的簽署國，我們會提供資料給美國作為課稅的依據，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：那美國也會提供給我們嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對，這個會。"],["郭委員國文：雙方依據都會有、都會提供，這一點你確定喔！"],["阮次長清華：現在是這樣子，我們跟美國之間的租稅協定跟全面的租稅協定……"],["郭委員國文：我得到的資訊好像不是喔！"],["阮次長清華：不是全面的租稅協定，但基本上它是有包括資訊交換……"],["郭委員國文：你最好問清楚喔！有嗎？"],["阮次長清華：它會另外簽一個租稅交換……"],["郭委員國文：你們會透過另外一個租稅協定，也就是共同申報準則作為資訊交換？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["郭委員國文：也就是臺美租稅協定簽完之後，你還要簽署跨政府的協議（CAA）或是共同申報準則（CRS），才能夠達到這個目標對不對？"],["阮次長清華：我請司長針對細節再補充說明一下好不好？"],["郭委員國文：請司長補充說明一下，這一點很重要，肥咖條款要課到稅，這個很關鍵啊！"],["丁司長碧蓮：報告委員，肥咖條款針對肥咖的事情，目前金管會已經有主責跟他們簽了一個跨政府的合作協定，那是針對肥咖條款的部分，而這個是針對銀行帳戶的資訊。另外，以後我們如果跟美國簽訂租稅協定的話，在全面性的租稅協定裡面會有一個資訊交換的條文，就這個資訊交換條文而言，一般我們都會先做個案資訊交換，在個案資訊交換之後、雙方有一定的默契之後，我們才會進一步做到自動資訊交換，所以初期在全面性所得稅協定生效之後，如果要依照我們的租稅協定來執行資訊交換，最早期只有個案，還不會到CRS的部分，但是金管會在幾年前有跟美國簽訂跨政府合作協定，那個是為了肥咖的事情……"],["郭委員國文：就是透過臺美租稅協定，在金管會的努力之下，這些肥咖就可以現形了？"],["丁司長碧蓮：這是兩件……"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，這是兩件事情，肥咖是關於金融資訊的交換，而剛才委員提的是稅務資訊的交換，稅務資訊交換現在已經包括在那個協定裡面、在那個草案裡面，將來還是基於互惠……"],["郭委員國文：好，我希望透過財政部跟金管會雙邊的努力，能夠讓肥咖早點現形，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：謝謝郭召委，接著請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-12","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","王世堅","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","賴士葆","羅明才"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案（後接第三冊）","agenda_id":"1134602_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.11471875,"end":5.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.32971875,"end":6.3590937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.03409375,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.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這個沒問題"},{"start":286.135,"end":311.771,"text":"第二,你要如何維護這些文化資產,進而如何活用,你要寫一份報告。第三,整個預算的綽綽,你要具體把時程還有項目的編列,把列出來,可以嗎?另外我順便跟委員報告,就是我其實我就事業單位那部分反而相對單純,我覺得最主要就是國產署那部分,它又接了343項...相對單純不一定做得好!"},{"start":316.354,"end":323.016,"text":"我只做相對,但是我的意思是說國產署他接了343項那才是大問題那是大問題,因為為什麼?因為股市的糾紛我是請那個署長來說"},{"start":330.659,"end":348.746,"text":"報告委員,我們國產署經管的有343處那我們大概3年前我們有跟文化部做了全省的總盤查你是文化資產大戶欸對對對,我們有做過全部的盤查然後分類的處理方式那目前也編列了中長城計畫"},{"start":349.906,"end":366.51,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":367,"end":370.743,"text":"我每次走到這個臺北街頭看到這棟宿舍在那邊翻回我就說啊這個一直曾署長的"},{"start":391.659,"end":395.962,"text":"有些東西可以進行社會住宅活化有些是進行飆售有些是應該予以活用我看你署長另外做一個報告給我好了整個布的是給"},{"start":419.735,"end":421.596,"text":"美國政府眾議院在1月31日已經表決通過了,但是參議院還沒有。"},{"start":437.564,"end":454.991,"text":"我理解的部分通過的時候其實是用包裹方式的在美國家庭及勞工稅收的減免法案當中就這個部分我們6月的部分真的能夠簽訂嗎我覺得是因為剛好是美國在大選"},{"start":456.412,"end":473.169,"text":"對阿,林部長當初誇下豪口,說6月就可以簽訂是這樣,我跟委員報告,的確眾議院通過了,但是到參議院的時候因為他有一個載具,那個載具涉及到一個勞工減免稅的問題"},{"start":476.292,"end":494.81,"text":"但是勞工減免稅那部分一直喬不攏,一直喬不攏,所以卡在那個地方。卡在參議院裡頭的政黨協商。在參議院那邊。參議院卡在那邊,那會卡多久你也很難判斷。我們的住宿一直都很無力去溝通。所以6月的簽署就有所變數了?"},{"start":495.851,"end":515.818,"text":"已經有積極去溝通了但是我是覺得那個很多東西我們主動選在他那邊第一個時程出現問題第二個我問內容的部分因為台灣是非卡條款的這個簽署國我們會提供資料給美國作為課稅的依據嘛對不對對那美國也會提供給我們嗎對對這個會雙方依據都會有對"},{"start":519.138,"end":520.66,"text":"我得到資訊好像不是喔你最好問清楚喔有嗎"},{"start":537.472,"end":556.628,"text":"他會另外簽一個就是租稅...你們會第一個透過一個另外一個租稅協定也就是共同申報準則來作為資訊交換對也就是台美租稅協定完之後你還要簽署跨政府的協議CAA或者呢共同申報準則CRS才能夠達到這個目標對不對"},{"start":561.553,"end":566.218,"text":"市長說明一下這一點很重要哦那肥咖條款你要去課稅這個很關鍵啊"},{"start":568.21,"end":582.643,"text":"報告委員,我們現在肥咖條款針對肥咖的事情目前金管會已經有主責跟他們簽了跨政府的合作協定,那是針對肥咖條款的部分,那這個是針對銀行帳戶的資訊"},{"start":588.268,"end":610.539,"text":"另外我們依據我們依據我們以後如果跟美國簽訂租稅協定的話在我們租稅協定全面性的租稅協定裡面會有一個資訊交換的條文那這個資訊交換的條文一般我們都會先做個案資訊交換那個案資訊交換之後雙方有一定的默契之後"},{"start":611.059,"end":611.079,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":638.331,"end":642.673,"text":"通過臺美租稅協定在金管會的努力情況底下這些肥咖就可以現行了"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}