{"error":false,"id":["152580"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152580,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152580","日期":"2024-05-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-16T09:49:40+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-16T09:58:46+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:06","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30c5c8d4d88fb9d173fe2b63d20657b6c6e01ba30ddb4afe0f018613d2985edf055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:49:40 - 09:58:46","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響及應處作為」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":148,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時49分）謝謝主席，麻煩國安局副局長。"],["主席：請國安局副局長。"],["柯副局長承亨：委員早。"],["王委員定宇：副局長早。520將屆，坦白說，因為執政的延續，我也不認為各位是所謂的看守內閣，因為各位都在這個位置上，不管外交、僑務或者是國安事務上都有相當的時間，所以有一個延續性。另外一個延續性是國家利益，國家利益不會因為政權的更迭、政黨的輪替而有所改變，常常是人，人對國家利益的認知會中斷，人跟人的互動、政黨跟政黨因為認知上的差異，會有一些利益上的中斷。所以我現在要請教一個520前跟520後的事情。","在520前，這兩天國際主流媒體報導，像VOA美國之音還有很多國際媒體報導，中國正在加大對臺灣各方面的壓力，它指的有軍事的、有灰色地帶的、有認知作戰的，甚至到各個國家去反遊說，希望各國的政要不要參加臺灣520的就職典禮，我都認為這個是等而下之的，是最low的手段，去各國叫人家不要來參加，還有一些軍事的手段。國安局目前有沒有掌握在520前，中共可能對臺灣這一個民主的盛會……民主的選舉有人勝、有人敗，但是民主本身是勝利的，就我們民選的過程而言。你們有沒有掌握任何情資？"],["柯副局長承亨：跟委員報告，本局跟整個國安團隊，事實上針對520……"],["王委員定宇：我現在先講520以前。"],["柯副局長承亨：總統就職當然都有相關維安重點的一些專案，520之前，我們光是看最近這幾天，中共連對我們電視台上媒體評論的名嘴……"],["王委員定宇：那5個算我學弟了，我已經被懲罰兩次了，我現在不想問我們知道的東西，我直接問，對岸有沒有異常的軍事調動？"],["柯副局長承亨：目前沒有異常的軍事調動，但是……"],["王委員定宇：你們有掌握嗎？"],["柯副局長承亨：目前為止沒有異常的軍事調動。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有異常的船舶調動？"],["柯副局長承亨：異常船舶調動，坦白講臺海……對我們周邊的海域，事實上中共灰色侵擾比以前更嚴重。"],["王委員定宇：不管是「052」軍艦或者相關的軍艦在臺灣周邊騷擾、日本騷擾、南海騷擾，雖然那個是不對的，但是那個是常態性的，我現在講不正常的，比方說我們講RO-RO boat它的滾裝貨輪有沒有不正常船舶的調動？"],["柯副局長承亨：目前掌握的情況，沒有，沒有特別。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有火箭軍的調動？"],["柯副局長承亨：跟委員報告，我們跟國防部都持續在關注。"],["王委員定宇：你可以不講，當然不能說謊，但你可以不講，我尊重某些事情保密是基於國家利益。我現在是說……"],["柯副局長承亨：我跟委員報告，沒有特殊、特別異常的一些調動。"],["王委員定宇：好，520前軍事上沒有特殊異常，那網路上呢？"],["柯副局長承亨：網路上？"],["王委員定宇：對，對臺的攻擊在量跟質有沒有升高？"],["柯副局長承亨：所謂網路上是認知作戰、錯假訊息……"],["王委員定宇：不管是disinformation或者malware，有的是惡性軟體，有的是假錯訊息，一個是程式，一個是內容，有沒有升高的趨勢？因為我們放了很多Honey Pot在偵測這些東西嘛！"],["柯副局長承亨：對，是。"],["王委員定宇：應該都有數據嘛？"],["柯副局長承亨：這個部分，中共對我們的一些錯假訊息的傳散本來就相當多，但是常態性的……"],["王委員定宇：不是，常態性的惡意，這些我們都知道，我是說有沒有異常？"],["柯副局長承亨：網路的侵擾……"],["王委員定宇：不是，你沒有掌握就沒有掌握……"],["柯副局長承亨：網路侵擾有增加。"],["王委員定宇：增加多少百分比？"],["柯副局長承亨：我請科技部門……"],["王委員定宇：先講malware這些惡意軟體。"],["馬副處長：跟委員報告一下，有關於網路侵擾的部分，今年1月選舉之後到……"],["王委員定宇：最近？"],["馬副處長：5月11日左右，都是持續增加的趨勢。"],["王委員定宇：趨勢往上走？"],["馬副處長：原本是從一百多萬次，到現在有……"],["王委員定宇：一百多萬次，是每日還是每小時？"],["馬副處長：每日的。"],["王委員定宇：每日一百萬次。"],["馬副處長：到現在的是兩百五十幾萬次。"],["王委員定宇：增加那麼多喔？"],["馬副處長：是。"],["王委員定宇：你現在講的次數，是針對我們基礎建設的網站，還是所有？"],["馬副處長：針對政府機關的侵擾。"],["王委員定宇：政府的嘛？民間的還沒有算進去，學術網路也沒有算進去嘛？"],["馬副處長：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以不含學術網、不含民間網，光政府網站攻擊次數，從選前每日百萬次，現在升高到兩百五十七萬次？"],["馬副處長：是。"],["王委員定宇：樣態有沒有不一樣？"],["馬副處長：樣態就是要找到我們網路設備的漏洞，然後進行後續的滲透。"],["王委員定宇：你們研判它想幹麼？也許在520當天，我還是講等而下之，給你置換front page、置換網頁。"],["馬副處長：跟委員報告，其實就是兩個面向，一個在隱性的面向，一定會包含所謂的平時竊資，如果是顯性的，有可能在當天會有DDoS的情形或者是您剛剛提到的網頁置換的情況，這都不能排除，以上報告。"],["王委員定宇：樣態還有很多啦！我們的時間是有限。我問520後，路透社有一則報導，說在就職典禮後，中國軍事演習的壓力會升高，你們目前有沒有這樣子的情資？"],["柯副局長承亨：跟委員報告，大概下半年，共軍演習本來就比較密集……"],["王委員定宇：他們演習的密集本來就6到11月……"],["柯副局長承亨：對，就是下半年。"],["王委員定宇：6到11月是它密集的區間。"],["柯副局長承亨：那個區間本來就是比較頻密。"],["王委員定宇：有軍隊就會有演習，有演習就有實彈、實兵等等，這個常態，本席現在問的是異常的部分，就是有沒有掌握到520後，甚至於到7月，共軍異常的或者是以往沒有的新的軍事動作？"],["柯副局長承亨：我們持續每天都在做一些監看，甚至跟我們的一些合作友方都有很密切地在做一些聯繫。"],["王委員定宇：你剛才跟我講的方法，我們跟五眼聯盟、跟友邦、跟自由民主同盟會有情資的交換，我們自己也要有這些掌控的能力，不管是軍事的掌控或者是情報的掌控，我現在問的是結果。有時候把對方的動作揭露也是一種因應之道，但我尊重你們的策略選擇。我現在問的是520後中共有沒有新增加的或者異常的或者相關的軍事動作，不管是軍演或者是侵擾，不管是在臺海或者是在離島，我們國安局有沒有這方面的情資？"],["柯副局長承亨：目前還沒有掌握到520之後他們有特別打算做的一些軍事侵擾。"],["王委員定宇：就異常的沒有？"],["柯副局長承亨：異常的，目前是沒有。"],["王委員定宇：因為異常的話，會有些先兆，軍事演習不是我們今天……"],["柯副局長承亨：對，跟委員報告，我們對於共軍的動態都有一些預警的徵候，我們隨時在關注。"],["王委員定宇：對，因為軍事演習不是拿個哨子一吹，就比賽看誰跑得快，不是這樣子，軍事演習要準備的、要物流的、要相關的logistic assemble，很多動作要做，所以有很多跡象可以去研判，我也相信貴局或者國防部會進行相關的掌握。","我現在只是提醒，對臺灣來講，是民主的喜事，是人民自由的選擇，但獨裁國家永遠不懂，不懂什麼叫做尊重人民的選擇、不懂什麼叫做民主的選擇，政權和政府是會換的，是人民選擇的，不會像習近平一做做到他高興為止，所以在520前後，不管是政治、經濟、軍事、網路各方面，可能都要提高警覺，證期會、證交所，駐外使館到國內的公家單位，到重要的基礎設施，到相關的軍事單位，我覺得這當然本來就是我們的責任，但在特殊時期，請大家一起努力，提高警覺，好不好？謝謝副局長。"],["柯副局長承亨：謝謝委員，我們會隨時提高警覺，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":38,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-21","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","麥玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會、外交部、國家安全局報告「中共海外統戰工作對我僑務推展與邦交維持之影響\n及應處作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.77346875,"end":3.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.45659375,"end":4.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.19471875,"end":6.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.113468750000003,"end":13.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.294718750000001,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.62784375,"end":15.218468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.69096875,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.49221875,"end":35.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.51909375,"end":46.994093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.43284375,"end":54.570968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.330343750000004,"end":67.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.66596875,"end":97.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.38284375,"end":101.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.93909375000001,"end":110.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.68034375,"end":110.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.91221875000001,"end":111.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.92909375,"end":113.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.92034375,"end":113.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.93721875000001,"end":115.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.50659375000001,"end":116.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.36721875,"end":119.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.48471875000001,"end":131.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.17909375000002,"end":142.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.84909375,"end":144.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.78909375,"end":144.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.36284375,"end":144.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.47659375,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.96596875,"end":157.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.90596875,"end":152.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.63534375,"end":156.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.43659375000001,"end":160.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.30534375000002,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.02971875,"end":185.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.97659375,"end":192.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.22471875000002,"end":192.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.63784375,"end":198.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.69659375,"end":198.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.41346875000002,"end":204.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.97034375,"end":200.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.32409375,"end":205.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.23096875000002,"end":205.50096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.50096875000003,"end":205.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.51784375000003,"end":206.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.47971875000002,"end":206.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.59784375,"end":211.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.32346875000002,"end":207.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.72784375,"end":215.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.60471875000002,"end":230.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.89159375000003,"end":218.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.05159375000002,"end":221.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.77971875,"end":232.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.82159375,"end":234.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.98159375,"end":238.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.14159375000003,"end":238.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.44096875000002,"end":238.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.60534375,"end":240.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.87096875,"end":250.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.44409375,"end":245.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.49471875,"end":245.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.73096875000002,"end":248.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.89909375000002,"end":250.00034375},{"sp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坦白說因為執政的延續我也不認為各位是所謂的看守內閣因為各位都在這個位置上不管外交、僑務或者是國安事務上都相當的時間所以要有一個延續性另外一個延續性是國家利益就是國家利益不會因為"},{"start":35.538,"end":37.439,"text":"我現在要請教一個520前跟520後的事情"},{"start":55.427,"end":66.713,"text":"在520前這兩天國際主流媒體報導像VOA是美國之音還有很多國際媒體報導說中國正在加大"},{"start":68.062,"end":95.411,"text":"對台灣的各方面的壓力他指的有軍事的有灰色地帶的有認知作戰的甚至於到各個國家去反遊說希望各國的政要不要參加台灣520的就職典禮我都認為這個是等而下之的這個是最low的手段去各國叫人家不要來參加那還有一些軍事的手段就國安局目前有沒有掌握在520前"},{"start":97.512,"end":110.278,"text":"中共可能對台灣一個民主的盛會民主的選舉有人勝有人敗但是民主本身是勝利的我們的民選的過程你們有沒有掌握任何情資"},{"start":111.96,"end":131.312,"text":"跟委員報告就本局跟整個國安團隊事實上針對520總統就職當然都有相關的一些維安重點的一些專案520之前我們光是看最近這幾天包括中共"},{"start":132.25,"end":132.91,"text":"有沒有異常的傳播調動?異常傳播調動"},{"start":161.374,"end":182.091,"text":"坦白講對我們周邊的海域中共事實上灰色侵擾事實上比以前更嚴重他的軍艦或者不管是052啦或者相關的軍艦在台灣周邊騷擾日本騷擾南海騷擾那個是不對的但是那個是常態性的我現在講不正常的是有沒有"},{"start":183.012,"end":192.156,"text":"比方說我們講Roro Boat 比方說它的滾裝貨輪有沒有不正常的船舶的調動目前掌握的情況沒有有沒有火箭軍的調動"},{"start":193.717,"end":215.48,"text":"跟委員報告我們跟國防部都持續在關注你可以不講我尊重某些事情保密是基於國家利益我跟委員報告就是沒有特殊特別異常的一些在520前軍事上沒有特殊異常的網路上呢網路上對有沒有升高我們從量跟值"},{"start":216.77,"end":217.77,"text":"網路上是認知作戰：王定宇：王定宇"},{"start":239.993,"end":263.522,"text":"這個部分中共對我們的一些錯假訊息的傳算本來就相當多常態性的惡意我們都知道我說有沒有異常有沒有異常那個網路的清早你沒有掌握就沒有掌握網路清早有增加增加多少百分比我請我們的這個科技部門那個先講Malware就是說這些惡意軟體"},{"start":264.842,"end":292.439,"text":"跟委員報告一下有關於網路侵擾的部分這是有比在今年1月就是選舉之後到最近0511日左右都是持續增加的趨勢那原本是從100多萬次到現在有你100多萬次是每日還是每小時每日的每日100萬次對然後到現在的是250幾萬次"},{"start":294.56,"end":317.75,"text":"增加那麼多是你現在講的次數是針對我們的基礎建設的網站還是所有針對政府政府機關的民間的還沒有算進去學術網路也沒有算進去嘛是所以不含學術網不含民間網光政府的網站攻擊次數從選前的每日百萬次現在升高到257萬次那樣態有沒有不一樣"},{"start":323.541,"end":323.781,"text":"你們研判他想幹嘛?"},{"start":332.028,"end":356.691,"text":"也許在520當天我還是講等而下之給你置換front page置換網頁跟委員報告其實就兩個面向一個在隱性的面向一定會包含了所謂的平時竊資那如果是顯性的有可能會在當天會有DDoS的情形或者是說網頁置換您剛剛提到的網頁置換的情況這都不能排除以上報告"},{"start":357.051,"end":359.473,"text":"520後路透社有一則報導說在就職典禮後中國的軍事演習壓力會升高,你們目前有沒有這樣的情緒?"},{"start":377.554,"end":406.517,"text":"跟委員報告大概下半年中共共軍在演習他們演習的密集本來就6到11月啦他6到11月他是他密集的那個區間本來就是有軍隊就會有演習有演習就有實彈實兵等等這個常態本期間問的是在異常的部分就是有沒有掌握到520後甚至於到7月有沒有共軍異常的或者是以往沒有的新的軍事動作"},{"start":407.847,"end":435.657,"text":"我們持續每天都在做一些監看甚至跟我們的一些合作友方都很密切的在做一些聯繫所以你剛才跟我講的方法我們跟五眼聯盟跟友邦跟自由民主同盟我們會有情資的交換我們自己也要這些掌控的能力不管是軍事的掌控或者是情報掌控那我現在問的是結果我不知道國安局能不能讓有時候"},{"start":436.897,"end":457.166,"text":"對方的動作揭露也是一種因應之道但我尊重你們的策略選擇我現在問的是520後中共有沒有新增加的或者異常的或者相關的軍事動作不管是軍演或者是侵擾不管是在台海是在離島我們國安局有沒有這方面的情資"},{"start":458.186,"end":481.349,"text":"目前還沒有就說掌握到520之後他們有特別的一些打算做的一些軍事的清早就異常的異常的目前是沒有因為異常的話會有些先兆軍事演習不是我們跟委員報告我們對於共軍的動態我們都有好幾個一些預警的徵候軍事演習不是拿個哨子一吹就比賽看誰跑得快不是這樣子"},{"start":482.41,"end":498.633,"text":"軍事演習要準備的、要物流的、要相關的logistic assemble 很多動作要做所以有很多跡象可以去研判那我也相信貴局或國防部會進行相關掌握我現在只是提醒就是對台灣來講是民主的喜事"},{"start":499.574,"end":527.333,"text":"是人民自由的選擇但獨裁國家永遠不懂不懂什麼叫做尊重人民的選擇不懂什麼叫做民主的選擇政權跟政府是會換的他是人民選擇的不會像習近平一做他做到他高興為止所以在520前後不管是政治、經濟、軍事、網路各方面可能都要提高警覺政期會、政交所"},{"start":529.09,"end":529.511,"text":"我們會隨時提高警覺"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}