{"error":false,"id":["152586"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152586,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152586","日期":"2024-05-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-16T10:00:54+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-16T10:10:04+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:10","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30dcf344fce7c8265d974d6013279311fbe01ba30ddb4afe0f2d37d3f517c779ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:00:54 - 10:10:04","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":336,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時1分）主席、各位委員。有請國發會副主委，還有原民會、衛福部。"],["主席：請國發會、原民會、衛福部，請上臺。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：先請教衛福部，還有原民會。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：離島建設條例第十三條的現行條文規定「六十五歲以上離島地區居民全民健康保險對象為應自付之保險費，由中央政府編列預算支應。」這個實施很多年了，衛福部的報告裡面也提到，因為現行的條文是寫由中央政府編列預算，所以衛福部的報告裡面寫，早期是由行政院，後來就由離島基金，行政院核定由離島基金支應。103年起由衛福部編列預算，沒有錯吧？當然你的報告裡面有提到年齡、平均餘命，然後差距縮小這些內容，如果我們看國民年金法，它是五十五歲，公教人員退休資遣撫恤，原住民是五十五歲，衛福部主管的很多有關假牙的補助也都是五十五歲，所以就不要再提那個，因為其他的法都是五十五歲，所以我們怎麼樣去因應這個部分？當然原民會的報告比較簡要，這裡面當然你有特別提到很重要的條文，就是原住民族基本法第二十四條還有第二十六條，這個都很好。","我們現在看國發會的報告，它寫「本會尊重目的事業主管機關衛生福利部及原住民族委員會」，特別提到原住民族委員會，因為今天的修正條文有提到原住民要降低到五十五歲。","我們看這個，Yapasuyongʉ，原民會訂的補助原住民全民健康保險保險費實施要點，這個是你們的要點，當然這是87年的時候訂的，跟衛福部使用的年份好像有一點落差，事實上是87年訂了這個要點，但是要跟大家說，還有請衛福部、原民會瞭解，因為我過去在臺灣省政府服務，全民健保開始之後，這個規定，省政府那時候的原住民行政局就開始了，不過後來精省，就由中央來訂。我們看這個要點，所以原民會這邊，這個當然不是你管的業務啦，怎麼會派你來？應該是社會福利處。","我們就講蘭嶼，第一個，蘭嶼就是全民健保第二類、第三類、第六類第二目的原住民，就是由原民會來補助，所以今天的這個修正條文，本席認為，現行條文是中央政府編列預算，而事實上依現行條文，六十五歲以上的都是由衛福部來編列預算，如果加上大家、各位委員都支持年滿五十五歲具原住民身分的話，就由中央目的事業主管機關來編列，也就是說，原住民的部分就由原民會來編列，其他的就由衛福部來編列，如果這樣子規定，Yapasuyongʉ處長，可以嗎？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努 Yapasuyongʉ．Poiconʉ處長：當然這個政策方向，我們原則上尊重委員的提案，但是這樣的文字是不是可以很精確地反映委員剛才的意思，可能還要再確認一下，因為這樣寫好像還有一些模糊的空間。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，衛福部。"],["陳專門委員淑華：謝謝委員。衛福部這邊還是要做個說明。剛剛委員有講到我們的書面報告裡面，其實從102年通過六十五歲以上由中央政府編列，我想大家都可以看到那個數字是非常清楚的，在102年的時候，補助只花了1.2億，然後在今（113）年我們已經編了3.7億，所以可以看得出來，隨著我們的人口老化等等因素，這個金額是一直膨脹，其實對健保的財務影響是滿大的。另外，其實現在原住民的平均年紀跟一般的國人，事實上也是有縮小，所以這部分還請委員能夠審酌，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你的意思是說，你們的政策要改嗎？衛福部主管的，其他的，很多啊，長照、假牙啊，這要改嗎？先不談這個，好不好？因為你那邊都沒有改啊，對不對？"],["陳專門委員淑華：抱歉，跟委員說明一下，事實上我們的國民年金法，經大院通過的條文裡面也是規定要逐年做檢討，那這個部分原民會也有在做檢討。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這樣啦，你回去跟新的部長報告，部長要換了嘛，如果你要改，他不會同意啦！再來，副主委，這樣的修正，因為畢竟這個法律的主管機關是你們。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：可以嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上，五十五歲以上的原住民免納保險費，除了經費的來源之外，其實還會涉及到整個全民健保制度會不會有其他的，例如說族群的……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個跟全民健保的制度沒有關係啦。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：會有一些……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：是要由誰來負擔這個費用而已啊。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：會有一些，譬如區域，因為我們現在是特別就離島地區的部分。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：那有沒有其他的援引等等效果，我覺得可能要尊重衛福部的意見，然後衛福部現在因為520新的部長要就任，我覺得這個議題可能可以再看看部長的……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我沒有要衛福部去負擔這個經費啊。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，可是……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你為什麼還要問衛福部？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：因為我們……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我現在的修正動議，是要由原民會，所以不是要由……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，基本上……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我又沒有說要由……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：跟委員報告……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當然你願意用離島建設基金更好。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們尊重衛福部的意見。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：衛福部沒有意見，我們國發會尊重。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，最後，離島建設條例第十六條是什麼時候公布施行的？89年，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個300億是什麼時候開始的？89年，對不對？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，89年。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，請問一下，這麼多年了，現在這個300億還有多少錢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：應該是已經用完了，現在由公務預算每年撥補。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，所以這個部分都是要去檢討的。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：89年到現在，然後沒有錢了，還在300億，這個條文已經形同虛設了，所以應該要修啊，修得更好、更完整，來因應整個離島地區實際的需要，好不好？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，謝謝。"],["主席：行政部門，因為我們今天的條文總共有7條，在詢答當中會討論一些方向出來，我也建議待會我們在實質條文討論的時候，你們聽到這個方向，各部門也可以趕快做討論。剛剛鄭天財委員所說的是把原住民的保費還是回歸到原住民委員會，反而是原住民委員會是不是可以支應這個部分，跟高副主委剛剛回答的你們尊重衛福部，我覺得這個是雞同鴨講，我非常希望我們在這裡理性去討論，才能夠真正有一個方向出來，大家不分藍、綠、白，都是希望為民眾修法更好的方向，還有更好的政策，我在這邊勉勵之。","接下來我們請鄭正鈐委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-12","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","黃仁","陳玉珍","蔡易餘","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","陳超明","林德福","鍾佳濱","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、本院委員黃仁等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員陳\n玉珍等18人擬具「離島建設條例第三條、第七條及第七條之一條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員\n陳玉珍等 18 人擬具「離島建設條例第五條條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員陳玉珍等 17 人擬具\n「離島建設條例第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員蔡易餘等21人擬具「離島建設條例第十\n條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.3934687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.519718750000001,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.812843750000003,"end":21.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.73221875,"end":22.778468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.60534375,"end":24.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.664093750000003,"end":27.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.414718750000002,"end":29.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.17409375,"end":30.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.405968750000003,"end":32.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.43471875,"end":37.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.04596875,"end":40.767218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.10471875,"end":41.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.06659375,"end":42.336593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.21409375,"end":46.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.74096875,"end":49.221593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.67721875,"end":56.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.57471875,"end":61.523468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.164718750000006,"end":64.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.23596875,"end":66.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.17659375000001,"end":71.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.08721875,"end":73.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.23034375,"end":78.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.36034375,"end":81.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.17846875000001,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.46909375,"end":87.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.01721875000001,"end":88.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.43471875,"end":91.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.56096875,"end":99.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.35284375,"end":101.16284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.31034375,"end":103.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.14971875,"end":106.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.63034375000001,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.73971875000001,"end":109.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.80284375000001,"end":111.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.49034375000001,"end":115.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.84409375000001,"end":116.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.82284375,"end":120.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.49721875,"end":124.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.34471875000001,"end":129.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.50846875000002,"end":131.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.28034375000001,"end":133.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.69784375,"end":134.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.75659375,"end":137.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.44409375,"end":138.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.50284375,"end":141.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.89909375000002,"end":142.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.29971875,"end":145.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.98284375,"end":148.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.56034375000002,"end":152.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.61471875,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.40346875,"end":155.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.79971875,"end":158.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.94284375,"end":161.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.67659375000002,"end":163.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.90409375000002,"end":164.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.15284375000002,"end":168.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.52346875,"end":172.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.18534375000002,"end":176.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.55596875,"end":178.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.83409375000002,"end":181.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.48346875000001,"end":183.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.20909375000002,"end":183.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.40284375000002,"end":186.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.24221875,"end":189.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.54971875,"end":191.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.33409375000002,"end":194.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.61221875,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.80596875,"end":203.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.20159375,"end":206.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.01971875,"end":209.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.86721875,"end":211.39034375},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﹚立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":145.981,"end":172.308,"text":"很重要的條文就是原住民族基本法這個24條還有26條這個都很好好我們現在看國發會的報告裡面他希望本會尊重目的事業主管機關這個衛生福利部及原住民族委員會特別提到原住民族委員會因為今天的修正"},{"start":173.446,"end":191.622,"text":"條文有提到原住民要降低五十五歲。」我們看這個 這個 這個 原民會定的補助原住民全民健康保險費十四要點 這個是"},{"start":195.66,"end":223.349,"text":"你們的要點當然是87年所定的這個衛福部使用的哪一年好像有點落差事實上是87年定的這個要點但是要跟大家說衛福部、人民會了解因為我過去是在台灣省政府服務全民健保一開始之後"},{"start":225.829,"end":249.087,"text":"這個規定,省政府那時候的原住民行政級就開始了。只不過後來京省就由中央來定。我們看這個要點,所以人民會這邊當然不是你管的業務了,怎麼會派你來,應該是那個社會福利處。這個蘭嶼,我們就講蘭嶼。"},{"start":255.86,"end":264.546,"text":"案：審查：事由：立法院第11屆第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會第12期經濟委員會"},{"start":284.743,"end":312.55,"text":"事實上目前65歲以上的現行條文都是由衛福部來編列預算如果加上大家如果各位委員都能夠支持年滿55歲即原住民身份的話那就有中央目的事業主管機關也就是說這個原住民的部分就由衛福部來編列這個其他的就由衛福部來編列"},{"start":314.127,"end":338.064,"text":"如果這樣子規定,這個表不適用,可以嗎?處長當然這個政策方向我們原則上就尊重委員的提案但是就是這樣的文字是不是很精確的可以反映就是委員剛才的意思可能還要再確認一下因為這樣寫好像還有一些模糊的空間好,那個衛福部"},{"start":341.832,"end":358.584,"text":"謝謝委員那衛福部這邊還是要做個說明就是說剛剛委員有講過說我們的書面報告裡面其實從102年通過65歲以上我想大家都可以看到那個數字是非常清楚的在102年的時候補助的話只有花了1.2億"},{"start":359.805,"end":364.106,"text":"案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案"},{"start":386.57,"end":414.423,"text":"那你意思說你們的政策也要改嗎?衛福部主管的、其他的?很多啊,長照啊、腳鴨啊,也要改嗎?先不談這個啦,好不好?你那邊都沒有改啊,對不對?抱歉,跟委員說明一下,事實上在我們的國民年金法裡面也是有大院所通過的條文裡面也是要逐年做檢討,那這個部分原民會也要再做檢討?你回去跟部長,新的部長報告啦,部長要換了吧?如果你要改,"},{"start":416.596,"end":428.296,"text":"他不會同意啦那個副主委是這樣的修正因為畢竟這個法律的主管機關是你是可以嗎"},{"start":429.425,"end":449.245,"text":"基本上這個55歲以上的原住民免納這個保險費除了經費的來源之外其實還會有涉及到整個全民健保制度在那個會不會有其他的跟全民健保制度沒有關係了"},{"start":450.326,"end":468.238,"text":"案,以及前面建保的制度,誰要來誰負擔這個費用而已啊?會有一些,比如說區域,因為我們現在是特別就離島地區,那有沒有其他的援引等等的效果,我覺得可能要尊重衛福部的意見,然後衛福部因為現在520"},{"start":469.599,"end":471.901,"text":"案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院陳玉珍等18人擬具"},{"start":482.604,"end":506.281,"text":"這裏面沒有要我現在的要修正動議是要由園民會所以不是要由我又沒有說要由我當然你願意用離島建設體系我們尊重衛福部的意見衛福部沒有意見我們國發會尊重最後離島建設條例第十六條什麼時候公布施行的89年對不對這個300億什麼時候開始的"},{"start":510.629,"end":510.649,"text":"案 。"},{"start":519.126,"end":546.189,"text":"現在應該是已經用完了那現在由公務預算每年撥補所以這個部分都是要去檢討的89年了到現在然後沒有錢了還在300億這個條文已經形同西色了所以應該要修啊修得更好更完整來因應整個離島第七實際的需要好不好謝謝"},{"start":549.175,"end":549.196,"text":"案。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}