{"error":false,"id":["152612"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152612,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152612","日期":"2024-05-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-23","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":23,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-16T09:57:19+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-16T10:09:49+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:30","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc308d45a713eaa8598fc1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0fd7f6994ea375bf835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:57:19 - 10:09:49","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時57分）麻煩有請次長跟署長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：次長。"],["黃次長謀信：是，委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：我不知道怎麼形容再度看到你的心情，我如果說很遺憾又再看到你，你可能會誤會，但我不是那個意思啦。那我也可以理解，現在部長好像在行政院參與總辭的過程嘛。"],["黃次長謀信：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那我也不會強求。","我想先請教一下，兩位都會留任嗎？對兩位沒有不敬的意思！因為我在想說，我們今天要進行法學的探討還是政策的探討？"],["黃次長謀信：因為事務官留任是由長官決定。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。","因為裡面有很多政策性的問題，其實歸咎於兩位我覺得不公平、真的不公平！我知道廉政署的同仁很認真、法務部的同仁也很認真，版本送出去，卡在行政院、在行政院睡覺，我的理解沒錯吧？"],["黃次長謀信：我們已經送行政院沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：但有一些在法律上面牽涉到制度性的基本問題，我覺得還是要談清楚啦。有關我們的聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告，寫的只有公部門的吹哨者保護還是包括私部門？"],["黃次長謀信：這部分是不是請……"],["莊署長榮松：跟委員說明，聯合國反貪腐公約只要求我們要儘速推動揭弊者保護法，它並沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我剛說：你們寫的聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告只有公部門，還是包括私部門的吹哨者保護？"],["莊署長榮松：這部分就立法體例的話，並沒有說是哪一種部門，但是它只要求……"],["黃委員國昌：我的老天啊！不好意思，我很想客氣地講，來，我唸給你聽，第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告第106頁：「我國已研訂公私合併版《揭弊者保護法》草案，以內部人員為限，參酌外國立法例，如英國、日本、歐盟之揭弊保護制度，均針對內部人員提供保護，以符合國際立法規範。」這是不是我們反貪腐公約第二次國家報告的內容？這種白紙黑字的東西就不要爭辯了嘛，浪費大家的時間啦，真的是浪費大家的時間啦！我們都是念法律的人，我把國家報告拿出來，白紙黑字就寫在這裡，你如果不知道就是對你自己的業務不熟嘛，我們政府花這麼多錢寫這個聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告是在作秀嗎？在當門面嗎？有當一回事嗎？最重要的主管官員不知道裡面寫了什麼，你們要不要回去把第二次聯合國反貪腐公約國家報告下架？一般人也不會看，因為連我們自己主責的官員都不知道寫什麼嘛！","我們在第二次國家報告裡面，還是公私部門都要有吹哨者保護法，剛剛次長說關鍵的轉折在2023年嘛，對吧？2023年制度調整大轉彎，我剛剛聽次長講，應該沒有錯嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：剛剛是署長報告。"],["黃委員國昌：請署長。"],["莊署長榮松：對，是在20……"],["黃委員國昌：你們2023年接到誰的陳情？接到誰的陳情？"],["莊署長榮松：這部分也不是說接到誰的陳情啦……"],["黃委員國昌：那奇怪了！沒有人陳情的話，那你們轉彎什麼？"],["莊署長榮松：主要是那時候有一個轉折的緣由啦，當初我們在推動的時候，行政院就有成立一個推動的專案，後來再經過企業的……"],["黃委員國昌：推動專案的召集人是誰？"],["莊署長榮松：就行政院。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院？"],["莊署長榮松：對。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院是一個機關，它不會召集啊，我說實際負責的人是誰？"],["莊署長榮松：院長。"],["黃委員國昌：院長？所以是院長交辦私法人排除在外，是嗎？"],["莊署長榮松：不是！那時候跟企業界接觸之後，企業界對於這個法的推動也有一些疑慮啦……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就說誰表達了反對意見嘛？"],["莊署長榮松：那是綜合！"],["黃委員國昌：有大金控去遊說嗎？有沒有大金控去遊說？說清楚喔！有沒有金控去遊說？有沒有金控的老闆去遊說？講清楚！有還是沒有？"],["莊署長榮松：這部分的業務我沒有接觸到，沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：就你沒有嘛！關於上面的人有沒有，你不知道嘛，對吧？"],["莊署長榮松：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是哪些大老闆去跟我們行政院的大官講，私部門的吹哨者保護期期以為不可啊？不要拿中小企業當藉口啦，今天把中小企業排除，你看那些金控會不會有意見？最有意見的就是他們啦！花幾千萬搞政治遊說，以為臺灣人民是笨蛋喔？在這些金控介入以前，行政院的立場從來沒改變過，大金控介入了以後，膝蓋就軟了。沒關係，我們看新的院長、看新的部長，他們的態度是什麼？那一天我質詢陳建仁的時候，他說他要再研議，我心裡就有數了，交不出來。果不其然，今天總辭嘛，今天行政院院版到目前為止還沒有提出來，這個客觀的事實我沒有說錯吧，對吧？","對嘛，那等於是我們過去所有的工作全部一切歸零，新的院長、新的部長從頭再來。沒有人知道新的院長怎麼想，也沒有人知道新的部長怎麼想，一切從頭再來。為什麼人民會憤怒？這就是人民為什麼會憤怒。","來，我講具體的例子，我回到民間社會以後，吹哨者跑來找我們台灣公益揭弊暨吹哨者保護協會，說他揭發國防部的官員胡搞瞎搞違反軍紀，他揭發了以後，結果他的身分被洩露了，告訴被檢舉的人誰檢舉你的，還讓被檢舉人去找第三人去恐嚇他，說「你很厲害，敢吹哨」，結果呢？吹哨者會怕，我們不會怕，我們去告發。我告發完了以後，橋頭地檢署給這個洩露吹哨者身分的人緩起訴處分。","來，我不談個案，從刑事司法政策上面，這是我們現在的廉政署所樂見的結果嗎？洩漏吹哨者身分，我們現在用什麼法訴追？請教署長，就現行的法規範體系。"],["莊署長榮松：這個情形我們當然不樂見，目前如果洩密的話，我們這邊會用刑法的洩密罪來追訴。"],["黃委員國昌：是洩密罪還是違反個人資料保護法？"],["莊署長榮松：看它的犯罪態樣。"],["黃委員國昌：我就把是誰抓耙子的，我就把你的所有個資都跟被被檢舉的人講。"],["莊署長榮松：如果有牽涉到個資的話，也有可能會牽涉到個資法。"],["黃委員國昌：我把你的個人資訊告訴別人，這一定牽涉到個資法嘛，但我為什麼舉這個案子給兩位看，這個就是我們在司法實際的實踐上，為什麼有委員要提案，洩漏吹哨者的身分所應該有的刑事處罰，在吹哨者保護法要定。它的性質跟一般洩漏個資是不一樣的，署長同不同意？"],["莊署長榮松：這部分可以考量。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，實際的實踐呢？人家已經都把我的資料洩漏出去，被檢舉的人已經知道是誰檢舉他，檢舉人從此以後要在一個非常敵意的工作環境當中，不知道那個被檢舉的人什麼時候要在背後捅他一刀，結果洩漏人家個資的人，我們出面告發，我們的檢察官，這還不到法院，我們的檢察官自己決定給他緩起訴處分。","政府、國家、法律賦予檢察官這樣的權限，檢察官在行使這個權限的時候要有自覺，這種權力的行使，它不僅僅在形塑我國的刑事司法政策，它也在考驗人民對檢察官的信心。這是檢察官權力的行使，我們尊重，但我必須要大聲的講我不同意。我必須要大聲的講，我不同意。如果我們的檢察官是這樣子在寬待洩漏吹哨者資訊的人的話，我們的政府要如何告訴這個社會「勇敢出來吹哨，我們的政府會保護你，我們的國家會保護你，我們的制度會保護你」？因為根本不會，完全是謊言。","NCC洩漏吹哨者個資，也有人檢舉了，法務部開始偵辦了沒有？法務部開始偵辦了沒有？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這部分應該臺北地檢署有分案處理。"],["黃委員國昌：確定有偵辦？"],["黃次長謀信：應該有。"],["黃委員國昌：我只要確定有立案偵辦就好了。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，確不確定這件事，我覺得他知有犯罪情事，理論上就應該要自動去偵辦。"],["黃委員國昌：然後第二個，這更扯了，本院委員徐巧芯，我不知道是不是他檢舉的，他說是他檢舉的，跟我們的NCC檢舉，結果他的email被公開，結果人家追查說是徐巧芯，結果被檢舉的人很囂張，直接嗆他。他們兩個要對嗆我沒意見，兩個要對嗆我沒意見，我care的事情是，我們的政府說要保護吹哨者，我們的NCC一而再、再而三洩漏檢舉人的個資，該不該辦？該不該辦？來，請次長。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，檢察官因為告訴、告發或其他情事，甚至今天委員在委員會裡面質詢，他知有犯罪，有管轄權的檢察官就應該要主動偵辦。"],["黃委員國昌：他應該要主動偵辦嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：訴訟法上有規定，他就是應該……"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們就看下去。我再說一次，這個名嘴、這個綠營的側翼跟徐巧芯委員兩個要怎麼互罵，我沒意見，政治立場不同，但我care的是什麼──我們的NCC在幹什麼？一而再、再而三洩漏吹哨人的資料，洩漏檢舉人的個資，那等於是昭告天下不要來找NCC檢舉、不要來找NCC投訴，因為我一定會把你的資料洩漏出去。站在政府的立場，應該容許這種事嗎？次長。"],["黃次長謀信：當然不容許。"],["黃委員國昌：切實地查辦，切實地查辦，這件事情絕對不能無疾而終。謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請陳俊宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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