{"error":false,"id":["152652"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152652,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152652","日期":"2024-05-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-23","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":23,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-16T12:16:38+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-16T12:30:19+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:41","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc30072844e4662a2573c1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0fa8baa82c9fec78875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"12:16:38 - 12:30:19","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":1053,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（12時16分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["傅委員崐萁：也請NCC的代表。"],["主席：NCC的代表。"],["傅委員崐萁：NCC怎麼會派一個處長來？在哪裡？你可以代表陳耀祥部長嗎？可以？那數位部是哪一位？"],["主席：數發部，麻煩上臺。"],["傅委員崐萁：數發部也是處長。那金管會呢？政務委員？"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，今天為什麼要請你們都在這裡？因為你們就是打詐國家隊，清一色讓國人看清楚，從法務部到金管會到NCC到數發部，當然族繁不及備載，如果還有其他的打詐國家隊，我沒有邀請你上臺，有沒有哪一位？也是打詐國家隊，有沒有？部長，您剛剛真的回答錯誤了，現在你要準備歷史留名，要樹立典範，過去你很多施政的面向是加分的，但是也有很多的面向是值得高度檢討的，所以這個時候要留下你的身影讓大家感覺到，今天在這裡詢答必須要講清楚。","剛剛大家都提到，我們詐騙的新收件數108年是3萬4,900件，將近三萬五；去年是22萬9,700件，將近23萬件，我們國家的經濟成長率有像這個比例的話，那不得了，成長560%。部長，臨別感言講一下吧！我們現在不是詐騙國家隊而已，我們現在是詐騙世界隊，而且不是隱形冠軍，是全世界首屈一指的冠軍，還是詐騙的輸出國，全世界詐騙的最新手法都是從臺灣傳出去的，所以臺灣的詐騙案遍布歐洲、美洲、亞洲、東南亞，部長，有什麼心得回應？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然有一些個案的發生，我們……"],["傅委員崐萁：這不叫個案嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：不是，你說有外國詐騙的……"],["傅委員崐萁：完整的數字這麼明顯，560%，部長，你不是要告訴本席哪裡做得好不好，不要每次法務部跟司法院一出來，開宗明義個案，不要再講個案了，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["傅委員崐萁：這是通案，已經變成這個樣子了，現在本席是希望你告訴這一些未來還在打詐國家隊裡面的，你要給他們指導一下，也跟全國國人表達一下，為什麼我們是詐騙的輸出國？而且世界的……"],["蔡部長清祥：我們都是在行政院的指導之下，大家分工合作。"],["傅委員崐萁：現在變行政院的責任了，是嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不是，行政院有一個打詐辦公室……"],["傅委員崐萁：陳建仁，還是蘇貞昌？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們共同提出了打詐專法。至於分工，法務部是負責懲詐的部分，其他部會負責阻詐、堵詐還有識詐，所以大家是分工的，行政院是一個團隊。"],["傅委員崐萁：緝捕是誰在緝捕的？緝捕是哪一個單位？"],["蔡部長清祥：緝捕是我們。"],["傅委員崐萁：對嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：我們負責，但是不是法務部本身，法務部也是由檢察機關……"],["傅委員崐萁：那為什麼完全沒有嚇阻力呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：檢察機關率領了其他的警察調查，執法單位共同來的。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以部長，本席今天很高興聽到你只是執法單位，其他的部分你是配合單位，是這個意思嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：其他單位負責相關的行政措施，可以來堵詐，來……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以他們的行政措施做得不好就對了？"],["蔡部長清祥：大家都要努力啦！"],["傅委員崐萁：來，數發部是哪一位？我沒有要你回答，你是數發部的處長是嗎？"],["張處長學文：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：NCC的處長是哪一位？謝謝，你們部長都不敢來，你們唐部長還在嗎？"],["張處長學文：在。"],["傅委員崐萁：還在，還健在是吧？那為什麼沒有來立法院呢？好，基本上，從早上講到現在，既然法務部是執行單位，負責宣導、提醒、技術、方式都是NCC、數發部還有金管會，金管會沒有關係啦！這個部分是你們部分業務，這個待會再講。是不是NCC跟數位發展部的成績單就是讓我們這個國家越打越詐？所以這兩個部會是不是我們今年下半年就免除他們的職務？也不需要花費這麼多人力，人總還要控管這麼多員額，這些統統省起來，把這些員額調整到比較適合國家發展的地方去，簡單講，叫做沒有存在的必要。部長，您今天講到你們只是執行單位，嚇阻、宣導、防範都是其他單位負責，那表示這些其他單位就是完全無能，也沒有作用，所以今天才會讓國家的詐騙案這麼嚴重，各位請回。","接下來，本席再請教一下，吹哨者保護法就是揭弊者保護法，我請教一個最簡單的問題，這個散布在各式各樣的條文裡面，我們要把它成立一個專法，部長，為什麼揭弊者需要保護？10秒鐘。"],["蔡部長清祥：當然我們希望在機關也好，或是公司也好，都能夠不發生弊端嘛！那有弊端，有時候不容易察覺，要有人來吹哨。"],["傅委員崐萁：在政府部門也好，都不要有弊端嘛！問題是他來檢舉，一個揭弊者為什麼需要保護？本席剛剛問的問題再說一次，為什麼需要保護？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們鼓勵，他提出揭弊的話，我們也要顧慮到他的安全，保障他的工作。"],["傅委員崐萁：他的安全為什麼會有問題？"],["蔡部長清祥：怕有人會報復啊！"],["傅委員崐萁：為什麼他的身分會被揭露出來？"],["蔡部長清祥：那有各種不同的方法，所以我們要杜絕這種被揭露的方法。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席請教你一下，黃國昌委員向法務部的檢察官來檢舉孫道存生前的一些案子，也把資料都交給法務部的檢察官，請問是誰把這些東西爆出來？各媒體都在講是黃國昌，那就是法務部洩密哦！是不是？"],["蔡部長清祥：法務部不會處理這些案子的。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有，就是法務部洩密嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：不是，法務部不可能洩這個密。"],["傅委員崐萁：再過來，NCC再來一下，一位立法委員來做檢舉，依然可以被我們自己的執法機關把他的人名身分都洩漏出來，今天最大的問題就是政府嘛！你政府把他的身分洩露出來！今天一再講越打越詐、加重刑期，再過來是吹哨者要保護，因為洩密者就是政府，反而要追究洩密者應該負什麼樣的刑責，揭弊者保護法如果源頭不斷掉的話，永遠有保護不完的人，最後沒有人敢揭弊。為什麼源頭管理會出問題？連黃國昌檢舉也被爆料。","接下來，NCC，有一位徐小姐向NCC檢舉，綠營的網軍側翼靠嘴吃飯的這些人不斷地污衊他、罵他，還跑到他家去，向NCC檢舉，然後罵他的人還說……這位徐小姐就是徐巧芯，立法委員向NCC檢舉，今天民進黨政府就是最大的洩密者！這是最大的問題！本席為什麼只提這兩個案子？其實族繁不及備載，太多的案子，但是這兩個是立委來檢舉，我們的行政部門照樣把他的身分洩露出來。","部長，你執掌的法務部，檢察官公然洩密，這個案子我們不是不能組專案，這是可以組專案的哦！可以在這裡開聽證哦！明天國會五法過了，我們就可以開聽證會，當時黃國昌委員到底跟哪一位檢察官檢舉的，資料都交給他，為什麼所有媒體都知道？就開始查了喔！本席上次就教您，雖說偵查不公開、偵查不公開，但是到現在為止，哪一件偵查沒有公開？你們除了第一時間必須否認以外，第二馬上就要做到追查到底是誰洩密。今天所有洩密的都是檢察官、都是法務部，一邊說偵查不公開，但是洩密的統統是法務部！部長，揭弊者當然要保護，那是誰讓揭弊者的身分暴露出來？誰讓他暴露於高度的風險之下？部長，您回答一下。"],["蔡部長清祥：好。洩密者絕對不是法務部，如果辦案人員洩密的話，我們一定依法嚴格追究。"],["傅委員崐萁：洩密者嚴格追究？洩密的不是法務部？那他們跟法務部檢舉後，消息就從天上掉下來，所有媒體都知道了？部長，這個回答只有50分，因為一個部分是0分，另外一個部分是滿分。滿分的部分是指你們承諾要追查，這點值得肯定，但是你到現在還堅持不是法務部洩密，這個本席不能接受。"],["蔡部長清祥：法務部沒有那些資料，怎麼可能洩密嘛？"],["傅委員崐萁：就是檢舉人交給他的！"],["蔡部長清祥：如果說是法務部所屬偵辦人員洩露，我們也會追究啊！"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，每一件偵查不公開案件揭露出來，都是所有媒體報導得比當事人還清楚，那就不是揭弊者或被告，所有資料就是檢察官手上有嘛！還有誰有？通靈喔？這些媒體統統通靈、所以統統知道喔？尤其是臺北地檢。根據鏡周刊，臺北地檢有太多、太多貓膩。本席在這裡要再一次強調，部長，今天的臨別贈言要多講幾句，讓你的後輩、法務部相關同仁都能夠謹守分際，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：好，謝謝，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：我還是建議一下法務部，有一些案子真的從指揮偵辦的檢察官到承辦人都是法務部底下所屬各單位嘛！包括調查官或廉政署，但是案子一件一件洩出來，而且愈洩內容愈多detail，法務部部長、次長，你們對於這些一定要想辦法解決啊！不然偵查不公開會被當笑話看啊！最近發生的幾個案子真的是如此，人名、數字、扣案金額都對，這就有問題了嘛！當然不是法務部洩密啦！但法務部所屬機關是不是……這個東西真的要處理。如果法務部沒有處理，讓檢察官、調查官或廉政署洩密出去，造成當事人的損害或者是被拿來做政治攻擊，我覺得到最後都不是好事情，這點要麻煩法務部這邊想個辦法，看看怎麼解決這個問題。謝謝。","接下來請賴士葆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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