{"error":false,"id":["152658"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152658,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152658","日期":"2024-05-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-23","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":23,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-16T12:31:35+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-16T12:39:57+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:22","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/069b0cf7e017bc303f57f9f3bc0763ecc1296c2fd5de7bd8e01ba30ddb4afe0f38984da3e0f224fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:31:35 - 12:39:57","會議時間":"2024-05-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n【第二案（七）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":1112,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時31分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請蔡部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。今天是你最後一次備詢嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["賴委員士葆：這次要離開公職了？"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：不會再擔任公職？"],["蔡部長清祥：不會。"],["賴委員士葆：所以要離開要講真話。"],["蔡部長清祥：我一直都講真話。"],["賴委員士葆：要講真、講滿。","你對於自己當法務部長這段時間的自我評價如何？"],["蔡部長清祥：我盡我最大的力量，做好我應該做的事情。"],["賴委員士葆：其實我們看一個法務部長做得好不好，就是看他能不能頂得住政治壓力。你頂得住嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我一直都頂得住。"],["賴委員士葆：你自己說的喔！好。","我的問題不在這裡，我是要問你：現在媒體傳得沸沸揚揚，說要特赦陳水扁，這件案子法務部開始作業了嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：蔡總統如果要特赦，需不需要跟你們打招呼？需不需要你們作業配合？"],["蔡部長清祥：她決定以後會交給我們，我們就要發特赦證明書。"],["賴委員士葆：所以還是由你們嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：最後我們處理。"],["賴委員士葆：由你們作業嘛！是不是？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["賴委員士葆：目前都沒有？"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：那外傳5月17號特赦這個消息……"],["蔡部長清祥：我不曉得消息從哪裡來。"],["賴委員士葆：來得及嗎？要是今天發給你，來得及嗎？如果今天發給法務部，來得及嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：她做了決定以後，我們只是進行作業，把證明書交給當事人。"],["賴委員士葆：所以一定來得及，是不是？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果要做的話，我們當然一定全力做好。"],["賴委員士葆：如果要做，一定來得及5月17號，是不是？"],["蔡部長清祥：但是目前為止沒有消息。"],["賴委員士葆：好。","你們到底扣了多少錢？"],["蔡部長清祥：到底多少錢……"],["賴委員士葆：扣了多少錢？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為有些部分是審判中、有些是判決確定的……"],["賴委員士葆：對，媒體講沒收3億、凍結8億，這個數字確定嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：我不曉得是什麼樣的算法是沒收3億、凍結8億。"],["賴委員士葆：外面這樣講，那你的數字呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：我的數字是目前在瑞士凍結了……"],["賴委員士葆：瑞士有多少？"],["蔡部長清祥：凍結了4億、大約4億新臺幣。"],["賴委員士葆：可是前檢查總長陳聰明多年前講啦！瑞士凍結的有1億美金欸！相當於30億欸！"],["蔡部長清祥：有部分已經送回來了嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：至於目前還凍結在瑞士相關銀行的話……"],["賴委員士葆：還有4億？"],["蔡部長清祥：大概4億。"],["賴委員士葆：但沒收3億確定了？"],["蔡部長清祥：沒收部分因為包括現金、財產等等，前後……"],["賴委員士葆：確定3億嗎？確定3億嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個案子現在由臺北地檢署執行沒收的金額是六點九億多。"],["賴委員士葆：六點九億？凍結……"],["黃次長謀信：執行部分已經全部執行完畢了，還有部分在扣押當中的，大概有7億左右的價值。"],["賴委員士葆：扣押當中的7億？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有凍結？就是凍結？"],["黃次長謀信：就是扣押，就是俗稱的凍結。"],["賴委員士葆：所以等於凍結7億、沒收6億？"],["黃次長謀信：是已經執行完畢的。"],["賴委員士葆：執行完畢就是沒收嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對，6.95億。"],["賴委員士葆：都放進國庫了？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["賴委員士葆：假如特赦案下來，照理講，根據赦免法，特赦是免罪不免刑嘛！對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：要看總統。特赦有兩種，一種是免除刑事執行，另外一種是罪、刑都失效，所以有兩種，要看總統行使哪一種。"],["賴委員士葆：但是只能針對審判終結的啊！"],["黃次長謀信：對，對確定的案件才能行使。"],["賴委員士葆：確定的是那四個案子嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：如果免罪也免刑，錢要不要還？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為是罪刑的免除，犯罪所得沒收不是刑，而是準不當得利的措施，所以不會及於沒收部分。"],["賴委員士葆：所以沒收還是你們的事情？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["賴委員士葆：不管怎麼赦，沒收的照樣沒收？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["賴委員士葆：好。","那我就要講囉！剩下四個案子要怎麼審呢？"],["黃次長謀信：目前這四件案子已經在停審狀態，而刑事訴訟法第二百九十八條有規定什麼時候可以繼續審判，所以必須按照相關作法去……"],["賴委員士葆：我講一個我的觀點啦！如果特赦，最大的意義就在於─對陳水扁來講，他現在是保外就醫嘛！如果那四個案件繼續審，他要回監獄吧！對不對？所以如果特赦了，他就不用回監獄，變成自由身，再打這四個案子的官司，我這樣的講法對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：不是這樣。在執行部分，如果特赦，當然保外就醫等刑的部分就不用執行了。"],["賴委員士葆：就沒有保外就醫了嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對，因為已經特赦、執行完畢、免去刑之執行了嘛！但審判中案件就要由法官決定要回復到什麼樣的狀態，因為是還沒有決定的案件。"],["賴委員士葆：不，就一般人來講，打官司時都是自由身啊！而他已經關了6年啦！"],["黃次長謀信：那要具體看該個案法官怎麼認定。"],["賴委員士葆：所以不一定會變成自由身？"],["黃次長謀信：要看個案原來的狀態是不是在自由的狀態，那就要由法官自己依個案決定了。"],["賴委員士葆：所以，還是有可能由法官決定把他羈押？是這個意思嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：這我沒辦法預判，要由個案法官決定。"],["賴委員士葆：不可能了啦！現在不可能了！現在都這樣、現在都沒有羈押了，怎麼可能再羈押？大家可想而知。我認為對陳水扁來講最大的意義是他雖然被赦一半，另外四個案子還要審，可是最少他不用再回監獄了啊！保外就醫解除了，對吧？保外就醫解除了嘛！保外就醫解除了，就沒有這個問題，可以專門對付這四個案子啊！而且以現在來講，政治掛帥氣氛這麼濃，很快就會審判啦！對不對？你們認不認同啊？","陳水扁不斷說，參與政治活動、輔選有利、有益他的健康與治療，你們同意嗎？部長，最後一句話，我希望你講到真、講到滿，講真、講滿。"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["賴委員士葆：你贊成這樣的說法嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：這是他個人的……"],["賴委員士葆：「參加政治活動、輔選有益健康、治療」？"],["蔡部長清祥：有益健康、治療這點要看是誰下的斷言嘛！如果是醫生，那有醫生的專業。如果是他個人，那就是他個人的意見。"],["賴委員士葆：你個人的呢？部長，你個人呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：我會綜合授權給主管機關矯正署判斷。"],["賴委員士葆：這個說法，當過檢察官的召委就不會認同嘛！如果這樣的話，請問你，陳水扁的案件到底是法律案件還是政治案件？"],["蔡部長清祥：在我們的認定，法律的由我們來處理……"],["賴委員士葆：當然是法律案件啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：政治的是另外一個判斷。"],["賴委員士葆：他現在是用政治的觀點、用政治的講法模糊化，指稱不是法律案件。但這是道地法律案件啊！不然法院判了四個案子、總共加起來20年是判假的啊？道地是法律案件啊！是一件貪污案啊！到現在為止，他也不認罪、不道歉。錢他當然沒辦法處理了，但怎麼赦？我不知道。蔡英文真的想要在卸任之前赦他嗎？會引起社會很大的公憤喔！很大的反彈喔！對不對？但你們看起來就是……你應該跟蔡總統建議一下啦！真的。這樣對社會很不好，踐踏司法正義莫此為甚！"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-23","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林月琴","黃國昌","羅智強","王世堅","黃健豪","謝龍介","陳俊宇","沈發惠","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","林思銘","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","賴士葆","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","翁曉玲"],"page_start":39,"meetingDate":["2024-05-16"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條\n文修正草案」案、( 四) 委員羅智強等29 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(六)委\n員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員謝衣鳯等\n17 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 八 ) 委員洪孟楷等22 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十)委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百\n三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、 ( 十一) 委員王世堅等22 人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九\n條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員謝衣鳯等17人擬\n具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三\n百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國\n刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中\n華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查 ( 一 ) 委員廖偉翔等18 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