{"error":false,"id":["152696"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152696,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152696","日期":"2024-05-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-20T15:46:50+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-20T15:58:09+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:19","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eb839dd47e69d583e1cddbc503e56b7a4e67044f11a0c4405e9097dc73d2618513912a9c72435c4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"15:46:50 - 15:58:09","會議時間":"2024-05-20T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（僅詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":220,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（15時46分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。我看到你剛才不斷地、一直重複強調說，給地方政府的錢越來越多。可是依據最新的資料來看，統籌分配稅款就是75%、25%，而1999年是60%、40%啊！不管你怎麼講，數字就在這裡啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["賴委員士葆：就是你給了，結果你拿75%，還是頭重腳輕啊！難怪政府、國家會辛苦，因為通通抓在你手上！老實講，你們有很多事情是地方政府幫你們做，比如打疫苗，衛福部的錢也是撥到地方政府衛生局，你何不乾脆給它？你們新聞稿都沒有看嗎？認真講起來，中央部會有的，地方都有啊，除了國防、外交、陸委會沒有以外，其他通通都有，對不對？每一個縣市都有啊，財政局、財政部，產發局、經濟部產發局，都有啊，除了國安這一塊沒有以外！所以你何必扛那麼大呢？還被人家罵得要死！以現在來講，請問可不可以回到1999年的60%、40%？"],["莊部長翠雲：當時中央、地方的比為60%比40%，但後來精省了。因為精省的時候，省的業務與負債全部由中央承受，部分由地方政府辦……"],["賴委員士葆：地方也承接很多啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：中央會透過補助的方式給地方政府。所以在精省的時候，省的部分是由中央來承接了，這部分有做調整。至於未來中央統籌分配稅款的75%、25%比例部分，當然，看中央統籌分配稅款是這樣，但是對地方政府的挹注，我已經說過，包含一般性補助款跟專案性補助款，事實上比起來，已經接近60%比40%了。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，是65%對35%啦，早上我們才查的，少了5%！是65%對35%……"],["莊部長翠雲：58.9%跟41.1%。"],["賴委員士葆：還是很多，5%還是很多！請問你，財政部有沒有提出財劃法版本？有沒有？有沒有在研究？"],["莊部長翠雲：有在展開，但目前來說沒有版本，因為第一，我們要先把水平分配的部分分配好；分配好以後……"],["賴委員士葆：部長，這是刁難的話！"],["莊部長翠雲：不足的部分……"],["賴委員士葆：講到水平，你應該知道這裡面的矛盾就在水平！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，矛盾就是在水平，所以要先有一個公式……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有能力來協調，以我們立委們來說，顏寬恒委員一定要替臺中市講話，羅明才委員一定要替新北市講話，賴士葆一定要替臺北市講話，水平怎麼擺的平呢！要先給錢下來，請問你現在有沒有公式？你告訴我，有沒有公式？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有公式嘛！就完全看你高興來給，你不是說要發展一個公式嗎？你剛才一直講有公式、有公式，怎麼現在又沒有了呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們是講水平分配的這個公式。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：水平分配，就是地方政府之間水平分配的公式，要有一個明確的公式來做分配，而這個公式裡面的相關指標要非常明確。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你現在沒有公式，現在你怎麼分配？現在你怎麼分配？就隨便，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有隨便。"],["賴委員士葆：想到就給？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會隨便的。"],["賴委員士葆：不然你沒有公式怎麼給呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：您是講哪一個？"],["賴委員士葆：水平分配啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：水平分配，現在中央統籌分配稅款就有公式啊，一般性補助款也有公式啊，但是大家都……"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼又講說沒有？怎麼一下子、有一下子沒有，到底有沒有？有沒有公式？"],["莊部長翠雲：我先這樣講，現行它有公式，但是各位委員也好，地方政府也好，都覺得這個公式目前來說有不均的情況，所以才會提出很多意見，認為要修財劃法……"],["賴委員士葆：那你提一個版本……"],["莊部長翠雲：現在我們必須要對這個分配公式重新研議……"],["賴委員士葆：請你提一個版本把公式變成法律案，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，所以我們現在……"],["賴委員士葆：可不可以？可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：所以我們現在進行的就是這件事。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以出來？什麼時候？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們這個部分，第一個已經跟地方政府……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：什麼時候可以出來要看共識什麼時候能夠集約到最小……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候？什麼時候？三個月可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：三個月？這個時間表我很難在這邊說明，為什麼？因為地方政府目前提出來的指標差距還是很大，所以我們目前要把各個指標釐清以後，然後集約成一個很好、更好的共識……"],["賴委員士葆：比較重要的應該是中央先剁一塊肉給地方啦，怎麼分配那是另外的事情，他們去分配啦，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，中央如果……"],["賴委員士葆：垂直分配比較重要啦，你捨不得割肉給地方！"],["莊部長翠雲：中央如果先割一塊肉給地方去分配，那會富者越富、貧者反而沒有得好處。"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼會呢？怎麼會富者越富……"],["莊部長翠雲：因為現在的分配公式會有這樣的一個情形，所以並不適合這樣做，而……"],["賴委員士葆：那你剛才已經講了啊，你可以用一般計畫或者是專案計畫補回來啊，這都可以補啊，對不對？所以這個東西，這非常不負責任啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們都已經積極在展開作業當中了。"],["賴委員士葆：我相信這個不需要你的卓院長來要求你吧？到時候我們總質詢時會問卓院長他什麼時候可以提出來，他可以一聲令下，你馬上就有！我們就看到囤房稅2.0，我們這裡十幾個版本，你理都不理，這個、那個的一堆理由，結果賴清德選舉的時候一聲令下，你馬上就出來了，馬上就通過了！部長，你不能這樣做啊！財政部長要有一點肩膀，有一點自己的一個主張啊！你完全是聽上面的！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們確實在做了，我們目前已經在作業了。"],["賴委員士葆：你都不敢……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們已經在作業了。"],["賴委員士葆：我相信今天如果卓榮泰告訴你的話，你下個禮拜就提出來了，我保證，我跟你保證！"],["莊部長翠雲：如果都出來，如果地方政府都沒有其他意見的話……"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你保證，他要求的話，一個禮拜以內就出來！沒關係，我們總質詢時來要求卓院長。現在地方政府，其實地方大家都很憤怒，中央最可惡的地方就在於經常是德政都是你啊，你贏得掌聲啦，但付錢的都是地方政府！這次的里長加給7.5萬就是如此啊！然後我們有些委員說這個稅減少、那個稅減少，你們減少了，結果這個錢通通是地方政府在買單！"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：有啊，怎麼沒有？里長的7.5萬就是啊！就是啊，怎麼不是呢？所以我的……"],["莊部長翠雲：稅款的部分，稅款如果我們這邊調整的話，稅法裡面都必須要彌補財源給它的。"],["賴委員士葆：現在來講，我再給你看你的表啦，你們說每一年的統籌分配稅款都增加，但是106年是減少0.6%耶，109年減少3.3%，地方政府他們的預算都編好了，結果你突然減少了，怎麼辦呢？106年減少、109年減少，其他是增加，但問題是這幾年怎麼辦呢？你以後會不會再產生這樣的情況呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：減少的部分是因為稅收短收了，所以就會減少，因此我們在編預算的時候，第一個，我們今年的，譬如說114年編好預算以後，我們就會先通知各地方政府預計會有多少收入，如果實際上的實徵數沒有那麼多的話，那確實就會減少。"],["賴委員士葆：那怎麼辦？地方政府怎麼辦呢？預算都編好了，結果你現在錢的來源少了，怎麼辦呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊，中央政府也是編好了，錢也少了，一樣啊！"],["賴委員士葆：部長，我覺得我對你越來越失望，這麼重要的財劃法，到現在為止竟然你心裡都沒有半點的譜，今天我們羅召委拿出勇氣、拿出他的guts來排審這個案子，財劃法已經修了十幾年都修不過，就是因為水平，每一個立委大家的看法都不一樣。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員士葆：但是你要有版本嘛，不是你說怎麼樣怎麼樣等等的，我們在修這個，這是我第一次看到財政部這麼不負責任，我們每次修財劃法都有財政部的版本，只有你這次沒有啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員士葆：不能一直講是啊，你要回應一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊，我跟委員報告，我們已經在積極的作業，修法原則也已經出來了，在水平分配的部分也已經把相關的指標提出請地方政府表示，所以我們一直在作業當中。"],["賴委員士葆：你用一句話叫「烏龍繞桌」，哪裡說水平的想法跟我們的想法完全不一樣，剛好upside down，剛好是完全顛倒了，要先割一塊肉出來啦，李述德當初就是割962億給地方，我就想說你怎麼不學學李述德，可以聰明一點啊，你說「好，我割多少給地方，割完後擺不平是你家的事情」，你的責任就可以推掉了啊，對不對？你現在講說一定要等到大家都一致，我就告訴你，那一天不會來臨，大家都滿意的那一天不會來臨，那一天不會來臨！你知道嗎？因為他如果同意的話，回去會被打死，知道嗎？那一天不會來臨，要等到大家都有共識就不用修了，我就告訴你，這個財劃法就不要修了！","我現在就跟你講，你不提沒關係，我們一定要先把中央剁一塊肉下來給地方政府，不公平啊，什麼事情都是地方政府在做，然後你權力這麼大，抓在手上，讓地方政府都是求爺爺告奶奶的來跟你要錢，這種東西要的都沒有尊嚴啦！為了地方建設，奇奇怪怪，你說要建設什麼建設，建設那個、建設這個，是不是？國安的問題當然中央來做，但是太多都是地方政府在做，包括剛剛講的，你說你們要做長照，長照也是透過地方衛生局在做的啊，基本上都是地方在做的啊！","我再強調一遍，只有國防、外交、國安方面地方做不了，要國家來做、要中央來做，這一部分真的中央在做，其他都是給地方啦！什麼時代了還抓那麼緊，這種東西你沒有下放、錢沒有下放，就代表集權跟集錢，這個在新政府還是一樣，還是鐵板一塊……"],["莊部長翠雲：不會、不會。"],["賴委員士葆：我會盯這個事情的。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位質詢請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","陳超明","陳玉珍","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","顏寬恒","鄭天財Sra 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文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．一條文修正草案．"},{"start":504.949,"end":532.307,"text":"今天我們羅昭偉這個拿出勇氣拿出他的膽子來排這個這個排列是我們已經修了十幾年都修不過就是因為水平每一個立委大家的看法都不一樣這時候你但是你要版本嘛不是你說說說說怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣等等的我們在修這個第一次我看到財政部這麼不負責任的我們每次修草案法都有財政部的版本只有你這次沒有啊"},{"start":534.144,"end":559.378,"text":"不能講意思是啊,你回應一下是啊,我跟委員報告我們已經在積極的作業之後修法原則也已經出來了那在公水平分配的部分也已經把相關的指標請地方政府表示所以我們一直在作業你有一句話叫歐倫西道啊哪裡說水平先想法跟我們想法完全不一樣剛好upside down剛好是完全的顛倒了要先割一塊肉出來李素德當初就割962億的地方"},{"start":562.349,"end":585.495,"text":"我就想問你怎麼不學學理數的?可以聰明一點啦!你說好我搞多少個地方給我擬百分之百的事情啊!你聰明就可以退掉啦!你現在說我一定要等到大家都一致我就告訴你那一天不會來臨!大家都滿意那一天不會來臨!那一天不會來臨!你知道嗎?因為他如果同意的話當天給我發信!知道嗎?那一天不會來臨!"},{"start":590.782,"end":613.24,"text":"要等到大家都有公事,那就沒修了。我就告訴你這個法都不要修了,才會有,不要修了。但是,我現在就跟你講,你不提沒關係,我們一定要先把中央倒一塊樓下來給地方政府。不公平啊,什麼事情都地方政府在做,然後你權力這麼大,抓在手上。"},{"start":615.91,"end":626.074,"text":"讓這個地方政府都卻越幹了來跟你要錢。 讓這個地方政府都卻越幹了來跟你要錢。這東西要的都沒有尊嚴啊。 這東西為了地方建設奇奇怪怪。 你說要建設什麼建設?"},{"start":626.074,"end":642.519,"text":"建設那個建設這個國安的問題當然總要來做。 但是太多都是地方政府在做。 包括這個剛講的你說長照你們要做長照。 長照也是通過地方衛生局在做的啊。 都是基本上地方在做的啊。"},{"start":644.199,"end":669.267,"text":"我再強調一遍只有國防、外交、國安方面地方做不了要國家來做、中央來做這一部分真的中央要做其他都是給地方啦什麼時代了還抓那麼緊這東西你沒有下放錢沒有下放就代表集權跟集錢這個對在新政府還是一樣還是鐵板一塊我會聽這個事情的"},{"start":673.933,"end":674.582,"text":"謝謝。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}