{"error":false,"id":["152742"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152742,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152742","日期":"2024-05-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-22T09:12:05+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-22T09:24:07+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:02","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d151cde394b4a16a349cdfe559183542c3b43bbf2d64d2017504fb69bf61eef5a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"09:12:05 - 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away，就是過渡的把它轉移掉。目前國際上也都認知，天然氣算是一個橋接，是一種過渡型的能源，所以等於是再生能源還沒有上來之前，它是一個過渡型的能源，希望2050年可以把它移除掉。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，關於排碳，民間環保團體建議每公噸收費500元，台電一年要徵收450億，有這個事情嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，沒有！台電它的排碳量大概一年1億噸左右，其他只有1,000萬噸是它自己生產過程當中所造成的，9,000萬噸是屬於使用者所造成的，所以那個費用是屬於我們民間企業要負擔。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你的意思是說，自己產生的碳才要徵收費用，是不是這樣？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：環團估計的是450億，事實上可能50億就夠了，你的意思是這樣？"],["彭部長啓明：當然這個要看碳費審議會定義的價錢，我曾經自己私下算過，如果台電要徵收碳費，可能是300塊，當然這要由碳費審議委員會決定。我自己私下算，如果碳費變成是額外的附加費用，只有零點零幾塊，可能就那麼一點而已，並不多。"],["蘇委員清泉：環境部開了兩次會，好像也還沒有結果，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：正在進行當中，因為其實我們委員的組成是非常的多元，所以要讓大家的意見能夠收斂，現在還正在收斂當中。"],["蘇委員清泉：台電現在的財務狀況每年都要撥補一、兩千億，如果再收碳費，則大家最關心的電費，是不是又要漲電費？10月份又要漲電費，會不會？"],["彭部長啓明：我個人認為，關於轉型，第一個是台電本身也很努力在做減碳的動作，如果它的減碳計畫符合我們自主減量的標準，它是可以有一些折扣的。所以目前我們預期，如果台電提出的報告有減量那麼多的話，其實比較不會受到一些影響。"],["蘇委員清泉：再看核電廠延役，要全民同意才可能，這是你講的，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，關於這件事情，那時是我在接受訪問，我前面講了很多。我的意思是說，很多人有不一樣的意見，有些國家大概是7比3或是8比2，像芬蘭，芬蘭那個國家我也去過，他們的共識很高，我要提醒的是，我們要是5比5或6比4，其實這樣的話……"],["蘇委員清泉：上次公投同意核能延役的有580幾萬票，然後不同意的是410幾萬票，差了將近180萬票，那個時候結果已經出來，但是民進黨政府就是不幹。","歐美轉向用核能來減碳，核能是不是綠能？你不同意？可能大家有不同的意見。布魯塞爾核能會議的結論是，再往後的20年，核能電廠要增加一倍。我們核三廠那邊的鄉親，恆春半島4個鄉鎮的民意代表、主席還有鄉鎮長，他們都同意延役，所以你講全民要同意，我們那邊是同意的，我自己做的民調差不多76%是同意，但是他們要求的是回饋還有交通，還有他們的醫療要有保障，所以他們要的跟你要的可能不一樣。","關於核三廠，我在那邊出生，在那邊發展。我看核三廠30年來都沒有發生過什麼重大的事情，頂多是大颱風來跳一下電而已，而且現在世界正在運作的450幾座核反應爐當中，它每年的評比都滿前面的。我常常去看核三廠，它離臺中市是237公里，離對岸的福清電廠有164公里，這是直線距離。所以如果對岸出事你就麻煩了，如果可以就去那邊抗爭那也是可以的，有沒有辦法這麼做我不知道。所以我們看核能，應該是電的分配跟布局，對此大家各有不同的意見。","這張是光電，是往車城方向的，這裡有屏東人嗎？有的話請舉手。這是最美麗的天際線，這是蘇貞昌講的。你看看，現在整個山坡都被弄得光禿禿的、蓋得亂七八糟的，如果要去看就去看，看到你就會吐血，整片山坡就變成這樣，這能產生多少電？我跟部長報告一下，你知道1MW吧？"],["彭部長啓明：1公頃左右。"],["蘇委員清泉：1MW差不多一年產生130萬度，有那麼多嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：差不多。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以一個核三廠要幾個GW？關於污染，我就一直講，這些光電設施就是把這些山河都蓋住了，臺灣太小了，要是像戈壁、內蒙古根本杳無人煙，你要怎麼蓋是你家的事情。像加州沙漠地方所產生的電都用不完，但我們臺灣這麼小，卻一天到晚在推儲能、推光電，然後怨聲載道、弊端重重。這次立法院要用調閱權、要用……這些權力要拿回來，就是要查弊案、查貪污，就是這麼簡單，這有什麼好爭議的？","這個是內埔鄉老埤農場，這更糟糕，就在屏科大旁邊，這一片是台農的地有七百多公頃，部長你知不知道？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道。"],["蘇委員清泉：我看要排一個考察，我們一起去？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。"],["蘇委員清泉：這七、八百公頃中有四百多公頃要放光電板，那裡種的茶園，因為不賺錢所以現在……我知道是農業部還沒有同意，不曉得環境部同意了沒？能源局同意了沒？這個要慎重考慮。能產生多少電？才400MW，400MW也沒多少電啊！所以不要再去養那些光電業者，現在要想好，現在立法院不像以前的一言堂，隨便你們搞一搞就可以同意，這是不可能的事，絕對會阻擋到死！所以我們要對子孫交代。","再來這個就是高雄的85大樓，還有北大武、南大武是屏東人的驕傲！但一年365天我看要看得到的可能沒有30天，這個就是平常的空污。我們以為是多漂亮的山嵐之氣？結果都是空污，這就是屏東的日常，尤其是泰武、潮州那一帶。","再來是中火、麥寮、興達港、中鋼……你剛剛講的就是要減少空污嘛！這個怎麼辦，部長？"],["彭部長啓明：這個部分其實首先要以煤轉氣，這個氣會有一個過渡的時間，我個人是認為還是要從全力發展綠能的角度來進行。剛剛委員提到屏東的問題，我早上特別查了，屏東大概1.3GW左右，大概占屏東土地面積的0.4%，未來環境部會加強所謂生態環境的檢核，特別是敏感的地帶或是濕地，我們會全面地檢核。"],["蘇委員清泉：它比較嚴重的就是，這裡一塊、那裡一塊，就像在貼藥膏那樣。你要嘛就是一片做到好，結果這一塊、那一塊，下面又砌水泥、堆石頭，那樣要怎麼回復啊？胡說八道！我每天都在跑基層，我知道是根本不可能的事情，所以這個我們再慢慢地來討論。","你看！屏東就是這樣！三分之一的污染源來自高雄，高雄有六千多家工廠，我們屏東才1,000家，結果污染全部都飛到這裡來，你們徵空污費對屏東也沒比較好、徵水污費對屏東也沒比較好，這些我以後都會追下去的，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：最後一個是醫院，你們有沒有找衛福部談醫院的碳排？"],["彭部長啓明：我個人最近有跟邱部長談這個問題，因為醫院大概占4%到5%。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啊！有4%到5%，你們要怎麼輔導醫療院所？排碳要怎樣能減少？醫療院所因為開刀、消毒什麼的，那個一定是高的嘛！全球都是4%到5%，差不多這樣。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以消耗的能源也是很高，也是占16%左右，所以這一塊往後……，部長，有雄心壯志吧？"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["蘇委員清泉：好好地幹！"],["彭部長啓明：可以，謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們會支持你，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。","接下來請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳菁徽","王正旭","涂權吉","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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這裡一塊、那裡一塊、這裡一塊都好像在打歌一樣啦你如果要就一片衝我好 要不就這裡一塊、那裡一塊還要空水泥吞酒頭 那個要怎麼回復啊胡說八道 每天都在跑基層 根本不可能的事情所以這個 我們再慢慢的來討論 你看 高 這屏東 這樣啦"},{"start":659.538,"end":673.087,"text":"蘇清泉的污染源來自高雄,高雄6000多家工廠,我們屏東才1000家,結果全部都飛到這裡來,你的空污費對屏東也不太好,你的水污費對屏東也不太好,現在我還要再給你賺,好嗎?好,最後一個,醫院,你們有沒有要找衛福部談醫院的碳排?"},{"start":681.563,"end":703.439,"text":"我個人最近有跟邱副部長有來談這個問題因為醫院大概在4到5%對啊4到5%阿你要怎麼給醫療院所要怎麼給他們輔導阿要怎麼排檔能減少阿醫療院所因為開刀阿什麼的消毒那個一定是高的嘛全球都是4到5嘛差不多這樣"},{"start":705.14,"end":705.28,"text":"蘇清泉委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}