{"error":false,"id":["152750"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152750,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152750","日期":"2024-05-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-22T09:36:30+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-22T09:47:04+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:34","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9de6292e93089ab74a88b406ffa24a3d763b43bbf2d64d2017b7913e8a5730d50f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:36:30 - 09:47:04","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【5月20日及22日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":183,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時36分）主席，麻煩請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝吳委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：彭主委早。"],["彭主任委員金隆：早！"],["吳委員秉叡：我剛剛看到您的報告，基本上是延續之前金管會的作法，但是有一部分想要做更積極的事情。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在就各個方面先跟你請教，因為臺灣在中國的暴險比例雖然下降，但是總金額事實上仍然居高不下，你知道現在對中國的暴險有多少嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個數字我可不可以……很抱歉，我沒有很清楚掌握。"],["吳委員秉叡：沒關係，你可以請……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我請我們銀行局稍微準備一下再跟委員報告。"],["吳委員秉叡：也不是只有銀行局，這個問題我一直在問，所以這早都有的數字。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們看到銀行這邊是9,529億。"],["吳委員秉叡：那保險呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：一千兩百餘億。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以要一兆多嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：差不多。"],["吳委員秉叡：至少！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這兩個加起來。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是還不包括影子銀行等等這些機構，因為那個也不是金管會監管的部分，所以你也無法統計，也就是說，臺灣對中國跟對香港的暴險金額仍然非常龐大，那你也知道中國現在經濟狀況非常糟糕，它甚至可能有硬著陸的風險，包括它現在房地產嚴重折價，大都會上海折價50%，房子還賣不出去，這麼嚴重的問題！然後它的金融機構整個都舉新還舊，不然的話很多債信都破產，在國際之間的信評都一直下調。如果中國發生系統性的風險，臺灣這一些暴險本身也沒有完整的防火牆機構，會不會使得這些損失延燒回來臺灣、造成臺灣的金融危機？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個問題金管會過去一向很關注，有些具體措施我可不可以請我們銀行局或是保險局跟委員進行說明，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：請銀行局說一下。"],["主席：請莊局長。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，針對中國的暴險我們一直長期關注，其實只要是海外暴險的話，首先，有關對中國的暴險我們已經要求提放款的準備，其實是比其他海外地區都還要高，要提到1.5倍，所以這個部分某種程度上面其實就是為了預防這個風險。從質方面的話，關於所有海外的暴險，在總行機構裡面都要有一個專責的單位來看海外的暴險，特別是針對中國的部分，我們隨時都有關注哪一些產業是風險比較高的，這個部分中央存保這邊也有幫我們一起注意，如果有發現任何比較大的風險事件的時候，我們都會轉請金融機構來注意。"],["吳委員秉叡：謝謝！其實主委，我今天不是要問局長這些意見，我是要提醒你，這個是我在財委會13年來一直關注的議題，而且這個議題在我看來沒有減輕、還在繼續嚴重發生中。以前可以忽略香港，因為中國跟香港有分際，但是現在香港已經被內化成中國的一個城市，美國對香港的態度都即將轉變。在這樣的狀況之下，對香港跟中國的暴險如果加在一起，金額遠比你今天統計的要大得多。臺灣對香港過去是給予特殊的地位，現在有一個風險說在美國參眾兩院的檢討之下，港元有可能被踢出美元的換算機制，有這樣的風險存在。萬一發生的時候，針對中國的系統性風險、香港港元的這些危機，我們有沒有準備一套面對及因應這個問題的方法？這是你今天的報告裡面所沒有的，所以我要提醒你注意這個事情。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員提醒。"],["吳委員秉叡：我希望你們不要忽略這一點，不要預測到前方可能會有熱帶氣旋、颱風來，但是你都把它視而不見，埋頭在國內的環境，不可以這個樣子。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員提醒。"],["吳委員秉叡：這是一個。第二個我還要再提醒，金融機構是你監理的對象，他們無論是在經濟上、財政上、法律知識上或人力上都遠高於消費者，兩者之間基本上不是平等的，所以我們必須支持消費者，要扶助消費者，提高消費者的法律能力等各方面的能力，才能夠讓他跟財團之間稍微平衡。不過不可能完全平衡，因為他們簽訂的都是定型化契約，然後用很多法律陷阱，你剛剛提到的先購後付、先享受後付款這一些就是這樣的類型。針對你監理的對象要注意，要扶弱抑強，其次，要保護消費者。","這些金融機構用那麼大的人力，請這麼多人變相一直在想要用什麼方法。真正最賺錢的是制定制度的人，我在這邊有那麼久的經驗，我跟你講，以前在賣高比例的TRF，錢都被制度的設計者賺走，爛攤子全部都留給大家，我們還必須想辦法幫他解決。這個要念茲在茲，因為不是現在沒有就代表未來不會產生，這一些人會繼續以華爾街之狼這樣的概念，繼續製造新的遊戲規則，讓大家都在他的遊戲規則裡面玩，讓他可以獲取暴利。這一點我認為未來一定還會再發生，從早年的金融卡借錢免還到George & Mary現金卡等等，一路來我們已經走過多少金融風暴？有大有小，那就是因為有這一些高智商的人在設計遊戲規則。一般人沒有那麼高的視野，沒有那麼長的眼光，也沒有這樣的知識、經濟能力，所以就在人家的遊戲制度裡面玩。","我再舉例子，現在虛擬貨幣幾乎全世界都知道，洗錢主要的管道就是虛擬貨幣。虛擬貨幣控制者很大一部分的比例是中國，中國一下子承認它合法，它就漫天漲；一下子說這個是洗錢的工具，打擊它，它就崩盤，這樣來來回回已經幾次了？這種可被國家操控的虛擬資產、虛擬貨幣，大家說因為已經太大了，所以我們必須承認它的存在，行政院也指定貴單位作為主管機關。可是我們還在人家的遊戲規則下面玩，連整個國家的制度本身都在這個遊戲規則底下玩，玩得過人家嗎？不會被人家吸乾抹淨嗎？這個都是必須思考的。這幾項問題看看你有什麼樣的看法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員提醒，剛才提到對大陸跟香港暴險的總額管制，還有消費者的資訊跟知識不對稱，需要保護他，還有虛擬資產的部分。事實上，消費者保護一向是我們最重要的工作。再來是有關虛擬資產跟虛擬交易，現在整個監管正在做很多面向的管理，因為我們被指定為主政的單位，所以從反洗錢開始，接下來做……剛剛也有跟委員報告，專法的研擬我們已經成立專案在做這件事情。我們希望務必做到剛才講的，很多的問題能夠有效地解決。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個是我在這邊跟你第一次對話，也是對你的期待。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：我希望資本市場能夠讓人家有靈活做生意的機會，那個要去發展，但是同時不要忘記你是進行金融監督管理，你在走鋼索，要balance，臺語叫做「捏驚死，放驚飛」，事實上是在走鋼索，所以要戰戰兢兢，稍微不平衡都會出問題。很多事情發生的原因也不在我們，像法院突然決定保險公司的人身保險殘值可以當作執行標的，這個案件排山倒海就立刻來了。貴單位是主管單位，我認為你們反應的態度是正確的，只是速度上面可以加強。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們會改進。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為已經有太多這樣的陳情案件來到服務處，我們民意代表的服務處也會為了這些社會的個案疲於奔命，當然大家都是一起努力，要解決社會的問題。這樣的事情未來還會層出不窮，我希望將來還有機會再跟你繼續切磋。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們今天總是第一次，高度要拉高，希望你帶著正確的心態，能夠為臺灣福國利民。謝謝你。"],["彭主任委員金隆：感謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-13","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","郭國文","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","葛如鈞","陳玉珍","林楚茵","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.6172187500000001,"end":2.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.27534375,"end":2.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.69721875,"end":3.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.84471875,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.03034375,"end":5.886593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.544718750000001,"end":6.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.472843750000001,"end":12.434093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.585968750000003,"end":14.594093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.374718750000003,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.31971875,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.72034375,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.234718750000003,"end":20.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.550968750000003,"end":22.137218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.64346875,"end":23.925968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.516593750000002,"end":29.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.000968750000002,"end":30.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.051593750000002,"end":30.355343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.317218750000002,"end":39.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.94534375,"end":38.134718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.52284375,"end":43.180343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.564718750000004,"end":40.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.39096875,"end":48.242843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.462218750000005,"end":49.103468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.86284375,"end":51.837218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.275968750000004,"end":53.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.744093750000005,"end":57.017843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.46534375,"end":56.055968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.64659375,"end":57.000968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.017843750000004,"end":57.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.659093750000004,"end":66.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.55221875000001,"end":70.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.92284375,"end":72.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.06596875000001,"end":76.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.72784375,"end":79.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.05221875000001,"end":87.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.78096875,"end":98.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.08284375000001,"end":100.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.69034375000001,"end":103.62659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.60534375,"end":106.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.66409375,"end":107.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.89159375000001,"end":110.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.27096875000001,"end":112.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.00909375,"end":117.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.44721875,"end":117.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.08846875,"end":127.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.23909375000001,"end":126.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.40784375000001,"end":126.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.63971875000001,"end":128.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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