{"error":false,"id":["152768"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152768,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152768","日期":"2024-05-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-19","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":19,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-22T10:01:16+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-22T10:11:17+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:01","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d3917d216ea04fd58c1abb13d390ebf8b3b43bbf2d64d2017e7f9e321232604b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:01:16 - 10:11:17","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具「不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「土地法第十四條條文修正草案」案。【第三案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【5月22日、23日 二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":334,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時1分）我請董次長。"],["主席：來，政次。"],["張委員宏陸：次長，我們今天討論的是不動產估價師，以前大家對於不動產估價師可能印象比較沒有那麼深，但其實現在很多公務部門也都跟不動產估價師有合作的機會吧？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["張委員宏陸：所以不動產估價師其實已經是一個越來越專業的行業了吧？"],["董次長建宏：對，沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯嘛？所以我個人是覺得不動產估價師，像今天的修法，如果說他們要有助理，你們認為如何？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，本部認為相關的提案其實是非常合理，我們敬表同意。"],["張委員宏陸：好。另外，今天還有要修土地法，請問次長，有沒有聽過神明的土地被拍賣？"],["董次長建宏：這個部分，我是不是請……"],["林副司長家正：報告委員，因為我們現在有個地籍清理條例，早期有些登記在神明或是神祇名下的土地，我們會進行清理。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，你回答我的問題啊！有沒有聽過神明的土地被拍賣？"],["林副司長家正：早期登記在神明名下的土地會有這種情況。"],["張委員宏陸：有嘛！對不對？這個可能很多人覺得很奇怪，怎麼會有神明的土地被拍賣，對不對？可是你要知道，從以前有很多人把土地捐給寺廟或捐給什麼，他是捐給誰？我們以前的年代也沒有這麼多相關的法規，那我捐給誰？我捐給天上聖母、我捐給土地公，這間廟就是他們的。然後以前也沒有這些財團法人的規定，也沒有董事會什麼的，他土地就登記什麼？就登記這一間廟，這個廟的主神是什麼，那時候土地就寫上祂的名字了，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["張委員宏陸：好啊，現在問題來啦！我們土地清查之後，歷史的問題，今天他有很多……一、兩百年前了，他的後代也不知道去哪裡了，有的也沒有管理委員會，有的也沒有董事會，所以什麼都沒有，那我們土地清查之後，問題出現了，他沒有辦法去完成登記，結果神明的土地就要被政府拍賣了，次長，你覺得這合理嗎？我們要去清查這個土地，我是支持的，我也認為應該要做的，可是這個歷史是這樣，我們就一定要這麼硬邦邦的，要照這些規定來，結果造成神明的土地被拍賣。你去拜拜，求神明保佑你，結果我們的政策要拍賣祂的土地、祂的財產，次長，你會不會覺得這個有點奇怪，邏輯不通？"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員指教，委員提到的這個部分，我們會特別注意，因為土地清查是國家非常重要的政策，但是涉及到相關的民間習俗跟一些權益事項，我們會特別注意，未來再跟委員請益，看是不是有什麼樣相關的方法，我們來做修正？"],["張委員宏陸：不是，我覺得啦，地政司……"],["林副司長家正：也跟委員補充一下，因為這些土地的部分，就像委員講的，時代非常久遠，所以清查這個工作我們都一定會特別要求，在標售時，有些土地的部分，如果寺廟或者神明的相關關係人有出面的話，他也可以申請暫緩標售，這些土地的部分，我們在處理上會非常慎重。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，你講這些，我也不能說你錯，你就是照法令啦！我覺得很多事情是要這樣，次長，你想想看，我們對於這些神明或地籍清理這些，我們應該要提供專案輔導的協助，你認為合不合理？"],["董次長建宏：委員建議的部分，我們部內可以先來討論，我們也會再去跟委員請益……"],["張委員宏陸：不、不，你們要討論什麼，我都尊重，但你覺不覺得要以專案來輔導、來協助？如果沒有，你請地政司回答。"],["林副司長家正：這個部分，我們會請縣市再瞭解一下現在神明會的土地登記情況是怎麼樣，我們來做一個專案的調查，看他們還有什麼不足的部分、需要協助的部分。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講啦，他們如果沒有原始規約或者是成立時候的信徒出資證明，這些東西很多都已經一、兩百年前了，我跟你講，如果是你家，你拿得出來嗎？誰要回答？如果是你們家，你們拿得出來嗎？"],["林副司長家正：現在這些土地，有關於神明會的組成都是跟地方的民政來申請，可能有些史料或地方文獻會有一些記載的部分，現在有些也是透過這些旁證的資料來做佐證，所以這個可能要看個案。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，不要再講什麼個案，這個問題我認為應該是要處理了，文史工作者都可以去找這些寺廟，你們要把寺廟變成古蹟，都可以去儘量找資料、找什麼，然後把它變成古蹟，像這一種呢？為什麼不行呢？就是一個態度而已啦！我覺得是態度要拿出來，解決這個問題啦！這些東西也不是個人財產，我們根本不用擔心是肥了誰嘛！如果有了這個之後，你應該去要求，政府如果給你這些讓你可以繼承這些財產，就規定他不能登記為私人所有，他必須要設立管委會或是董事會或財團法人，這樣問題都解決啦！沒有任何一毛錢掉到誰的口袋裡啊！替神明解決問題，你才能國泰民安，我覺得應該是要這樣。","而且像現在有很多寺廟其實是坐落在國有土地上，我們的國有土地不應該是這麼嚴格的標準，國有財產署就是，我的土地不能賣啦，我的土地不能這樣啦！次長，只要是現有的寺廟，不是要新的，只要是現有的，國有土地的部分你們就要去跟國有財產署協調，不應該這麼硬邦邦的嘛！我們是替神明解決問題，不是替個人，是替臺灣的信仰，政治人物每次就要去廟裡拜拜，都不幫神明解決問題，我覺得次長，你應該成立一個專案小組來解決這個問題，我覺得如果你可以把它真的做好，我跟你講，神明也會保佑你啊！"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員的指教，我們會回去研議，另外也跟委員報告，國有土地上的相關東西是不能標售的。"],["張委員宏陸：我剛剛講的嘛！如果每個人都要照法條來做事，那還請你們來幹嘛？我就一台電腦在這邊按下去，法令不行的就全部不要來啊！"],["董次長建宏：委員的建議我們一定會研議……"],["張委員宏陸：你們來是要來解決事情，不是來叫你們看法條、解釋法條，我跟你講，找一個特別會念書的，以後請AI來當部長、AI來當次長不就好了，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：是，我們會照委員的建議去研議。"],["張委員宏陸：我剛剛講的那個前提是這些事情都沒有任何一毛錢流到私人的口袋，你要替臺灣所有的寺廟去解決這個問題，我覺得這是一個態度，對不對，次長？"],["董次長建宏：是，我們會再研議。"],["張委員宏陸：你們會再研議？你剛剛說你要……現在又要再研議？我認為啦！你們應該照我說的，成立一個專案去處理這些事情，你說要多少時間？我也不敢說你們要多少時間，畢竟這太複雜了，但你們應該要去成立一個這個，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：好。"],["主席（吳委員琪銘）：謝謝張宏陸委員的質詢。","下一位請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-19","speakers":["吳琪銘","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","林楚茵"],"page_start":401,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具「不動產估價師法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員蔡易餘\n等17人擬具「土地法第七十三條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「土地\n法第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.17346875,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.34596875,"end":10.662218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.555968750000002,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.51346875,"end":17.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.11659375,"end":20.078468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.36534375,"end":25.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.883468750000002,"end":43.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.73471875,"end":32.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.92034375,"end":32.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.12971875,"end":47.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.52971875,"end":57.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.080968750000004,"end":59.414093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.650343750000005,"end":72.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.04909375,"end":73.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.45409375,"end":79.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.74409375,"end":81.53721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.53721875000001,"end":81.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.02659375,"end":88.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.09721875000001,"end":92.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.96534375,"end":98.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.20534375000001,"end":100.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.48784375000001,"end":100.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.50471875000001,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.78721875000001,"end":110.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.35534375,"end":111.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.37221875,"end":116.77221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.22784375,"end":120.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.53534375000001,"end":123.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.60659375,"end":129.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.74471875,"end":132.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.68096875,"end":134.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.30096875,"end":142.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.64159375,"end":148.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.73346875000001,"end":148.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.22284375,"end":150.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.33221875,"end":160.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.86659375000002,"end":162.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.38096875000002,"end":166.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.90346875,"end":169.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.38409375,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.33284375000002,"end":176.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.69534375,"end":178.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.60221875000002,"end":178.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.98596875,"end":181.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.48346875000001,"end":184.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.09909375,"end":192.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.73909375000002,"end":195.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.98346875000001,"end":196.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.83971875,"end":200.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.07971875,"end":201.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.15534375000001,"end":205.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.81721875000002,"end":208.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.02784375000002,"end":228.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.73784375000002,"end":238.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.62659375,"end":259.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.68221875,"end":263.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.51721875000004,"end":263.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.12471875,"end":272.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.88284375,"end":274.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.73909375,"end":282.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.78846875,"end":285.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.80534375,"end":284.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.93159375,"end":297.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.79034375000003,"end":298.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.97159375,"end":307.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.16846875000005,"end":316.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.33596875,"end":316.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.97721875,"end":317.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.04471875,"end":317.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.97284375000004,"end":320.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.77409375,"end":321.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.28034375000004,"end":322.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.06909375000004,"end":325.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.20784375,"end":328.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.09346875,"end":340.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.97346875,"end":346.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.82909375,"end":353.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.27096875,"end":356.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.97096875,"end":358.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.69221875,"end":359.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.16034375000004,"end":361.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.07971875000004,"end":363.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.07096875,"end":366.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.51784375,"end":369.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.86346875000004,"end":369.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.88034375,"end":387.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.97034375000004,"end":396.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.72409375,"end":403.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.79909375000005,"end":407.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.25409375000004,"end":410.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.35909375,"end":420.25221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.67409375000005,"end":432.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.66784375000003,"end":442.15596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.45971875000004,"end":443.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.26534375000006,"end":445.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.32409375000003,"end":449.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.13784375,"end":452.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.36096875000004,"end":455.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.84159375,"end":462.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.19909375000003,"end":475.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.47971875,"end":477.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.49221875,"end":483.11159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.46596875000006,"end":494.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.72159375,"end":495.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.29534375000003,"end":497.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.48471875,"end":500.83034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.96534375000005,"end":502.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.08346875,"end":501.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.07909375,"end":502.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.37846875,"end":512.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.60909375,"end":512.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.68909375,"end":524.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.24846875,"end":528.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.2647187499999,"end":532.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.6059687500001,"end":534.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.6984687500001,"end":540.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.89659375,"end":536.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.48284375,"end":538.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.42346875,"end":540.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.97596875,"end":541.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.0265937500001,"end":541.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.09409375,"end":547.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.11096875,"end":543.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.04659375,"end":553.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.34096875,"end":555.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.0834687500001,"end":555.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.3703437500001,"end":555.5390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.5390937500001,"end":555.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.5559687500001,"end":558.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.57284375,"end":557.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.99846875,"end":563.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.77409375,"end":567.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.55409375,"end":570.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.1359687500001,"end":570.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.8615937500001,"end":572.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.09784375,"end":571.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.5322187500001,"end":589.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.6459687500001,"end":574.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.4765937500001,"end":577.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.06534375,"end":594.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.25034375,"end":597.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.06409375,"end":600.19034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.243,"end":7.304,"text":"市長其實我們今天這個不動產估價師這一個"},{"start":25.97,"end":46.872,"text":"其實以前大家對不動產估價師可能比較印象比較沒有那麼深但其實現在其實我們有很多公務部門也都是需要也跟這個不動產估價師他們有合作的機會吧是對對對嘛所以啊"},{"start":48.875,"end":71.077,"text":"這個不動產估價師啊其實已經是一個越來越專業的一個行業了吧對沒有錯是沒有錯嘛對啊所以啊我個人是覺得啦所以說這個不動產估價師他們如果要有像今天的修法如果說他們要有助理的這個你們的認為是如何"},{"start":73.539,"end":91.752,"text":"跟委員報告本部認為相關的提案其實是非常合理我們競表同意另外我們今天還有要修土地法我想請問一下市長有沒有聽過神明的土地被拍賣"},{"start":96.264,"end":119.658,"text":"有沒有聽過神明的土地被拍賣?這個部分我是不是...報告委員因為我們現在有一個第幾清理條例那如果早期有些登記在神明或是神旗的名下的土地我們會進行清理你回答我的問題有沒有聽過神明的土地被拍賣登記在神明名下的早期的土地會"},{"start":120.835,"end":132.172,"text":"有這種情況有嘛對不對對啊啊這個可能很多人覺得很奇怪啊怎麼會有神明的土地被拍賣對不對可是你要知道"},{"start":133.7,"end":161.975,"text":"以前從以前有很多人他把土地捐給寺廟捐給什麼那他捐給誰以前的人也沒有我們以前的年代也沒有這麼多相關的法規啊那我捐給誰啊我捐給天上聖母我捐給土地公這間廟就是他們然後以前呢也沒有我們這些財團法人規定也沒有什麼董事會什麼的他土地就登記什麼"},{"start":163.427,"end":192.492,"text":"登記這一個廟。啊這個廟欸他的祖神是什麼那時候土地就寫上他的名字了對不對那好啊那些問題來了啊我們土地清查之後啊歷史的問題他今天他有很多一兩百年前了他的後代也不知道去哪裡了有的也沒有管理委員會有的也沒有董事會什麼都沒有"},{"start":193.929,"end":205.149,"text":"我們土地清查之後問題出現了他沒有辦法去完成登記結果神明的土地就要被政府拍賣"},{"start":207.272,"end":227.654,"text":"市長你覺得這合理嗎?這好像我們要去清查這個土,我是支持的,我也認為應該要做的。可是這個歷史是這樣,我們就一定要這麼硬梆梆的然後就照這些規定來,結果造成神明的土地被拍賣。"},{"start":228.895,"end":233.767,"text":"你去擺牌要求市民替你保筆結果我們的政策要拍賣他的土地、他的財產市長你覺得這個有點奇怪、邏輯不通"},{"start":239.19,"end":259.629,"text":"謝謝委員指教。委員提到這個部分那我們會特別注意因為土地清查是國家非常重要的政策但是涉及到相關的一些民間習俗跟一些權益的事項那我們會特別注意然後看未來再跟委員請議是不是有什麼樣相關的方法我們來做修正"},{"start":260.714,"end":286.562,"text":"老闆 我覺得啦 這個第一陣子也跟委員補充一下齁因為這些土地的部分就像委員講時代非常久遠所以清查這個工作我們都一定特別要求那如果在飆售因為有些土地的部分如果有寺廟或是神明的那個相關的關係人有出面的話他也可以申請暫緩飆售那這些土地的活動在處理上會非常慎重我跟你講啦我跟你講啦"},{"start":287.222,"end":307.035,"text":"你講這些齁 我也不能說你錯啦啊你就是照法令啦齁 很多事情 我覺得是要這樣啦齁 瓜子長你想想看齁 來我們啦 這樣對於這些神明會的第幾的清理這一些啊 我們應該要提供啊專案輔導的協助 你認為合不合理"},{"start":308.564,"end":318.377,"text":"我想委員的建議這個部分我們可以部內先來討論我們也會再去跟委員請議你們要討論什麼我都尊重你覺不覺得"},{"start":323.157,"end":345.593,"text":"要以專案來輔導來協助。如果沒有,你請迪森斯回答啊。這個部分我們會請縣市再瞭解一下現在神明會的土地登記的情況是什麼樣。我們來做一個專案的一個來做一個調查。看那個他們還有什麼不足的部分需要協助的部分。我跟你講啦,大概就是我跟你講啦。他們齁如果沒有原始規約啦。"},{"start":347.595,"end":361.546,"text":"啊或者是啊啊有人家的成立的時候的信徒的出資證明啦欸這些如果很多東西喔一兩百年前我跟你講如果是你家你拿的出來嗎?哈?"},{"start":366.101,"end":389.862,"text":"誰要回答?如果是你們家你們拿得出來嗎?現在這些土地的話有關於神明會的組成都是跟地方的民政來申請那可能有些史料或地方的文獻可能會有些記載的部分現在有些也是透過這些旁證的資料來做一個佐證所以這個可能要看個案我跟你講不要再講什麼個案什麼的啦齁"},{"start":390.763,"end":407.313,"text":"我跟你講這個問題我認為應該是要處理的文史工作者都可以去走這些寺廟這樣你們要寺廟什麼要把它變成古蹟都可以去盡量找資料找什麼然後把它變成古蹟"},{"start":408.328,"end":431.951,"text":"那像這種呢?為什麼不行呢?就是有一個態度而已啦。我覺得是態度要拿出來解決這個問題啦。這些東西也不是個人財產。我們根本不用擔心是肥了誰嘛。那如果有了這個之後,你應該去要求我政府如果給你這些讓你可以繼承這些財產。"},{"start":433.937,"end":461.946,"text":"規定他不能登記私人你必須要設立你的管委會或是董事會或財團這樣問題都解決了沒有任何一毛錢掉到誰的口袋裡替神明解決問題你才能國泰民安我覺得應該是要這樣而且像現在有很多的土地很多的寺廟它其實它座落在國有土地上"},{"start":463.237,"end":474.946,"text":"他坐在國有土地上我們的國有土地不應該是這麼一個嚴格的標準我國有財產署啊我就是啊我的土地不能賣啦我的土地不能這樣啦"},{"start":476.59,"end":500.287,"text":"市長只要是現有的寺廟不是要新的只要是現有的那你國有土地你就不應該你們要去跟國有參與局去協調不應該這麼硬梆梆的嘛我們是替神明解決問題不是替個人替台灣的信仰政治任務每次都要去廟裡拜拜都不幫神明解決問題我覺得市長"},{"start":503.913,"end":528.18,"text":"應該成立一個專案的小組來解決這個問題啦我覺得如果你可以把他這個做好我跟你講新名外的保庇啊好我們我們會謝謝委員的指教我們會回去研議啊那個另外也跟委員報告我有土地上的土地啊相關東西是不能飆受的啊也跟委員報告我剛剛講的嘛吼你你弄"},{"start":529.332,"end":553.551,"text":"如果是每個人都要照法條來做事,那還請你們來幹嘛?我就一台電腦在這邊按下去,法令不行的都全部不要來啊。委員的建議我們一定會研議。你們來是要來解決事情,不是來叫你們看法條,要解釋法條。我跟你講找一個特別會念書的,以後用個AI來當部長、AI來當次長不就好了。"},{"start":554.512,"end":577.199,"text":"對不對?我覺得我剛講的那個前提是這些事情都沒有任何一毛錢留到私人的口袋阿你要替台灣所有的寺廟去解決這個問題阿我覺得這是一個態度嘛 對不對?次長是我們會再研議你們會再研議?你剛剛說你要說阿現在又要再研議我認為阿"},{"start":579.48,"end":580.04,"text":"三、審查委員吳琪銘等17人擬具"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}