{"error":false,"id":["152830"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152830,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152830","日期":"2024-05-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-24","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":24,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-22T11:46:35+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-22T11:59:10+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:35","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ec526bb9f1bdce9d454f371602a33cf842979da188194bea3b43bbf2d64d20173cbf50dea0cea1405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:46:35 - 11:59:10","會議時間":"2024-05-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1288,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時46分）謝謝，麻煩部長及次長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長以及黃次長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長好、次長好。我來這裡已經三個多月，其實我不會作無理的質詢，畢竟我們對於檢察業務算是熟悉，所以我的質詢都是針對有問題的地方，提出來讓大家來討論。","首先我想先提一個東西，其實我到這裡比較辛苦的一件事是常常要幫大家上法律課，現在也是要在這裡再提醒一個東西、要再幫各位委員上一次法律課。剛剛吳思瑤委員對部長提到一點，我個人認為那是違反現行制度的，所以我在這邊要提醒一下。我們昨天審查立法院職權行使法時，針對第四十七條及第四十八條進行討論，但是她剛剛講了一個點，如果有違憲的問題，法務部這邊就不能處理之類的，也就是她剛剛有提到，如果相關法律有違憲的話，法務部這邊不能處理。我在這邊必須向兩位說明，其實違憲與否不是法務部認定，我想這個應該沒有問題。我們可以認為有違憲之虞，但法務部沒有權力認為這條法律有違憲之虞就不處理，惡法亦法，我們念法律的人都知道嘛！其實我很喜歡與法律界的人或實務界的人討論法律，因為大家都會在一個水準之上去討論法律，不會亂講，但是來這裡之後我覺得很辛苦的就是有些人要跟你談法律，但對方是胡說八道，我們就必須花很多時間告訴對方法律的規定是如何，但對方又不相信、認為你是亂講。我想部長及次長應該能夠理解我說的，以法務部的立場、以檢察官的立場，不能自行認定這條法律違憲，所以就不做，對不對？惡法亦法，我想兩位應該理解我在說什麼，部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，理解。"],["吳委員宗憲：一個法律只要被大法官宣告違憲，我們就一定不能做，我百分之百都能夠接受，但是不能說法務部覺得這個可能違憲就不做，這是不對的，對不對？請教部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是正確的。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，即便是院方法官在審理案子的時候，認為這個條文有違憲之虞，院方法官也只能停止訴訟來聲請釋憲，部長，是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以絕對不存在法務部執行法律時認為有違憲之虞就不做，我想這個部分要向兩位說明，甚至是報告也可以，向兩位說剛剛吳思瑤委員的建議真是萬萬不可，那是違反法制的，以上是向兩位說明的部分。我們法律人常常講惡法亦法，如果遇到不好的法律、遇到違憲的法律，我們的積極作為就是趕快拜託立法院修法或趕快找管道，譬如立法委員去聲請釋憲，我想這個才是正確的法制作法。","接下是延續剛剛的臨時提案，有關於偵查不公開的部分，部長，你在擔任廉政署署長的時候，其實蠻積極主張揭弊者保護法，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那時候有推動。"],["吳委員宗憲：其實揭弊者保護法很重要的點就是我們要讓知道有不好事情的人能夠勇於揭發，這個是沒有錯的，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，它的立法就是要保護揭弊者。"],["吳委員宗憲：就是避免有一些揭弊者在揭弊之後導致身家受影響或工作受影響，我想這是這個法律的立法目的，應該是沒有什麼問題。再加上剛剛在處理臨時提案時我有提到，很多時候是被調查人名譽的問題，因為你我都知道，其實有很多案子查到最後發現是烏龍一場，但是前階段因為違反偵查不公開的洩密行為已經讓他很慘了。我之前在這裡也向所有人報告過我以前偵辦案件的實際例子，在我辦的貪污治罪條例中他只是基層公務員，案子來了，它只是一個他字案而已，但因為案由是貪污治罪條例，在我向他問完案子，而且我是很客氣地向他問案，因為我覺得那個案子根本不會成立，所以我非常客氣的向他問完之後，開完庭就請他離開，原本我認為應該是皆大歡喜，於是就趕快幫他簽結，但他還轉過頭來告訴我，我一輩子也忘不了，他告訴我，檢察官，你這張傳票害慘了我一輩子，因為那張傳票是貪污治罪條例，他的長官嚇得半死、他家裡的人也嚇得半死，而且長官也馬上將他調至比較不重要的位子。因為那件事給我的印象很深刻，所以後來我在帶學習司法官的時候，我都會拿這個例子告訴我帶過的每一位學習司法官，因為法官、檢察官一個不經意的動作，甚至是一張傳票就會害慘一個人的一輩子，更何況違反偵查不公開。","我在這裡沒有要替任何人講話，我們不講特定個案，今天不管是民間企業、不管是政治人物，甚至是私人、甚至是家庭糾紛，可能都會因為我們違反偵查不公開而受害，甚至是被社會公審。部長、次長，你們也知道其實有很多這樣的例子，前面已經被社會罵到社會死了，後面發現狀況原來不是這樣，所以請部長、次長一定要非常非常用心來改善偵查不公開的問題。尤其是特定媒體總是在執行後馬上將大量資料丟出來，那個資料detail的細節已經到一般人不可能會知道的程度。就像我剛剛向兩位報告的，我去問過當事人，它連他家扣多少錢都知道，而且不是地檢署發的新聞稿，他沒有辦法接受啊！連在他的保險箱裡的基本護照都知道，我覺得這樣是不對的，再麻煩兩位能夠……","譬如最近發生的詐騙集團的案子，其實這個案子很重傷我們司法圈，因為扯到法官、扯到檢察官，連檢察官及法官都涉入了，還有一群律師也都涉入其中。譬如這張監視器的畫面，這是院方的監視器拍到的，院方有沒有可能給？當然有可能啊！但我也擔心是不是檢方流出去的，因為院方會隨便記者來要監視器畫面就給嗎？其實我是打一個問號。雖然我沒辦法說這個案子是檢方洩漏偵查的資料，但這也許是要讓我們去反省，因為一次一次發生這樣的事情，讓民眾對我們的信任度越來越低、對司法的信任度越來越低。我向兩位報告，你我或在座的每一個人都可能是被害人，說真的，在我擔任檢察官的二十年裡也有當事人對我不爽而去檢舉我，同事偵辦後發現是亂扯的，我想兩位以前也接辦過檢舉同仁的案子，像我以前肅貪時也辦過很多檢舉同仁的案子，如果這個洩漏出去對同仁的傷害會有多重。所以至少我在這裡的四年一定會盯緊偵查不公開，因為這個對官員、對公務員、對民眾都是存在著很大的風險。","這段時間我有發現一個狀況，依據偵查不公開的檢討小組，我發現這段時間它檢討出來的數字狀況是很不好的，雖然我們檢討的件數很多，但是就108年至112年在機關內部的查處人數是0，每個案子都洩漏得這麼澈底，我們不要講遠的案子，就講這次有法官、檢察官涉入的詐欺集團的案子，它就把內部多少的資料都流出來了，難道法務部可以不用心去處理嗎？","再來，我還想提一個比較實務面的問題，雖然我們一直說對於媒體記者與檢察官之間的管制是否要處理好，但是我們都知道，現在的檢察官都是二、三人一間或三、四人一間，我們現在的卷連櫃子都放不下，以前我當檢察官的時候幾乎就是在卷海裡面，桌上、櫃子、地上都是滿滿的卷宗，甚至連走路都還要跨過卷宗，如果今天我們沒有很嚴格的管制記者與檢察官之間的拜訪，這些記者進入辦公室是可以翻閱到那些卷宗的耶！常常我們會去外勤、去內勤或去開庭，人不在辦公室，有時候整間辦公室都沒有檢察官在，以前我在士檢老地檢署擔任檢察官時是五個人一間，曾經我進辦公室時就只有記者一個人在辦公室，因為大家都出去忙了。這個也不能怪記者，只是我們是不是應該要有一個規範出來，讓大家就依照這個規範走？","檢察官與記者不是不能接觸，我也有很多的記者好朋友，但是公歸公、私歸私，大家還是要嚴守一些本分嘛！我們要不要檢討一下，應該要設採訪區，既然設置了就要嚴格適用。像我去高檢署的時候，它有一個接待室，我想找哪位檢察官就必須先確認那位檢察官在或他來帶我，這樣我才能進得去，是不是要有這類相關的規範？而不是有些記者想去哪就去哪，即使他要找的檢察官不在，他也是直接就跑去那間辦公室。如果有其他檢察官在，我相信記者就不敢亂翻別人的卷，但是如果都沒有人在的時候會不會？這個我就不敢說了。","其實這個與查詐欺集團一樣，你要查幕後首腦很難查，但是我們做源頭的管理，也就是查那個帳戶，一樣，我們要查到底是誰洩密，真的是不容易，但我們是不是可以從可能的消息來源管道去控管一下，也就是記者與檢察官之間的狀況。記者要找檢察官不是不行，但你要先確認那位檢察官在，而且由那位檢察官負責從頭到尾的接待，否則他會不會怎麼做，我不清楚。拜託不要讓偵查不公開變成是偵查大公開，或讓特定媒體每次都放出很傷人的新聞，好不好？部長，可以嗎？依照我們今天提的臨時動議去處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我們就遵照臨時動議執行。"],["吳委員宗憲：處理得如何，也麻煩再向我們說一聲，我們就一直保持著溝通，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳召委、謝謝部長及次長。我們的臨提是到6月底前，謝謝。","接下來請陳委員俊宇質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-24","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","林思銘","謝龍介","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","羅智強","林德福","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","陳冠廷"],"page_start":77,"meetingDate":["2024-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.71784375,"end":9.329093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.73409375,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.63221875,"end":13.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.68284375,"end":14.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.62784375,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.57284375,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.19284375,"end":22.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.09909375,"end":25.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.84971875,"end":28.414718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.735343750000002,"end":33.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.400968750000004,"end":35.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.05909375,"end":36.126593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.666593750000004,"end":39.940343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.32846875,"end":40.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.47596875,"end":55.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.81971875,"end":66.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.73784375000001,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.35659375,"end":77.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.72346875000001,"end":82.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.70159375,"end":84.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.72659375,"end":90.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.53159375,"end":92.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.64096875,"end":95.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.88096875000001,"end":115.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.42221875000001,"end":118.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.64096875000001,"end":135.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.90409375000002,"end":138.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.94596875000002,"end":141.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.28721875000002,"end":143.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.11409375,"end":144.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.97034375,"end":145.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.76346875000002,"end":156.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.91784375,"end":172.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.06721875000002,"end":175.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.11784375000002,"end":173.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.08784375000002,"end":195.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.13534375,"end":211.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.48721875,"end":218.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.59159375000002,"end":221.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.81909375,"end":226.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.99971875000003,"end":230.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.98221875000002,"end":237.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.06971875000002,"end":246.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.46909375,"end":249.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.76409375000003,"end":250.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.25346875000002,"end":253.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.81409375,"end":269.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.32221875,"end":269.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.65971875,"end":273.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.13159375000004,"end":275.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.95409375,"end":283.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.05409375,"end":300.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.45659375,"end":308.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.52284375,"end":311.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.94846875,"end":314.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.95221875000004,"end":333.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.47659375,"end":338.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.38721875000005,"end":340.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.68659375000004,"end":352.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.88721875000005,"end":360.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.71721875000003,"end":363.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.02471875000003,"end":367.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.48409375,"end":378.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.75221875,"end":380.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.62971875000005,"end":384.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.74721875,"end":392.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.84721875,"end":422.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.86784375,"end":425.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.51284375,"end":428.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.84159375,"end":431.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.45721875000004,"end":432.52034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.62159375000005,"end":433.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.06034375,"end":433.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.47784375000003,"end":435.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.52409375,"end":440.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.92409375000005,"end":443.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.29909375000005,"end":444.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.97409375,"end":447.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.31971875000005,"end":448.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.66971875,"end":449.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.17159375000006,"end":451.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.04471875,"end":453.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.93471875,"end":455.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.90909375,"end":456.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.14096875,"end":483.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.73596875000004,"end":488.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.91659375,"end":489.89534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.40159375,"end":494.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.31221875000006,"end":499.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.66596875000005,"end":500.37471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.72909375,"end":506.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.37784375,"end":510.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.10721875,"end":517.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.04284375,"end":520.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.45596875,"end":521.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.3840937500001,"end":523.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.26971875,"end":529.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.18034375,"end":538.7990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.45721875,"end":546.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.99596875,"end":557.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.31096875,"end":560.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.4834687499999,"end":560.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.93909375,"end":561.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.06971875,"end":563.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.77409375,"end":565.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.98471875,"end":566.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.0815937500001,"end":567.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.7522187500001,"end":571.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.5534687500001,"end":572.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.1059687500001,"end":577.5947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.25284375,"end":579.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.8347187500001,"end":581.1553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.9822187500001,"end":587.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.38221875,"end":600.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.35909375,"end":600.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.13534375,"end":604.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.66221875,"end":606.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.7209687500001,"end":609.4209687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.8428437499999,"end":610.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.5347187500001,"end":613.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.67346875,"end":616.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.79534375,"end":618.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.63471875,"end":625.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.60409375,"end":632.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.06284375,"end":637.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.14221875,"end":639.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.4584687500001,"end":642.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.39471875,"end":646.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.84534375,"end":672.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.15784375,"end":676.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.2122187500001,"end":680.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.61659375,"end":680.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.29159375,"end":692.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.27284375,"end":709.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":710.01284375,"end":711.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.24471875,"end":712.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.11784375,"end":719.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.56409375,"end":720.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.57659375,"end":722.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.0403437500001,"end":724.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.0990937500001,"end":727.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.5290937500001,"end":729.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.9422187499999,"end":732.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.62534375,"end":734.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.51534375,"end":735.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.43909375,"end":741.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":741.34971875,"end":745.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":743.37471875,"end":744.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.5559687500001,"end":751.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.5803437500001,"end":752.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.60534375,"end":755.96346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.234,"end":27.208,"text":"謝謝 那我們麻煩部長還有次長有請鄭部長以及黃次長委員好部長好 次長好我想說 因為我自己來這邊上個多月我以來我的質詢我不會去做無理的質詢因為畢竟我們對檢查業務應該算是熟悉所以我質詢會都是針對我覺得針對有問題的地方然後大家來做討論"},{"start":37.609,"end":62.03,"text":"現在我這邊我想先提一個東西因為我到這邊來比較辛苦一件事是常常要幫大家上法律課那我在這邊也要再提醒一個東西要再幫各位委員上一次法律課就是剛剛因為吳世耀委員他有提到一個點而且是對部長說那我個人認為那個是違反現行制度的所以我這邊要提醒一下就是說他剛剛吳世耀委員確實有提到"},{"start":63.112,"end":70.846,"text":"我們在審查立法之間新司法昨天就立法部分有有就47條48條去討論嘛那因為他剛剛講的一個點說"},{"start":76.357,"end":76.957,"text":"違憲與否不是法務部認定"},{"start":95.97,"end":95.99,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":119.668,"end":144.075,"text":"他跟你談法律但是他胡說八道然後我們必須花很多時間去跟他說法律規定這樣他又變不相信說你在亂講所以我想說部長次長應該能夠理解我說的嗎以法務部的立場以檢察官的立場他不能自行認定說這條法律違憲所以我不做對不對二法一法我想我想兩位應該理解我在說什麼嗎是部長是要理解"},{"start":145.146,"end":145.186,"text":"這是正確"},{"start":162.934,"end":163.474,"text":"委員會主管列席報告"},{"start":186.122,"end":210.308,"text":"說明甚至報告也可以跟兩位說剛剛吳宗憲那個建議真是萬萬不可那是違反法制的再跟兩位說明一下這個部分所以說我們法律人常講二法一法如果遇到不好的法律遇到違憲我們能積極的作為就是趕快拜託立法院修法或趕快找管道例如說立法委員去申請釋憲我想這才是正確的法制做法"},{"start":211.468,"end":218.159,"text":"好那接下來我想請教一下就是延續剛剛我們的臨時提案就是有關"},{"start":221.897,"end":249.922,"text":"有關這偵查不公開的部分我想部長你在擔任那個聯政署署長的時候其實有提到就是就是有其實蠻積極主張這個那個接避者保護法嘛對不對我們部長有推動對那其實接避者保護法其實一個很重要的點就是我們要讓知道有不好事情的人能夠勇於揭發我想這個這個是沒有錯嘛對不對"},{"start":250.562,"end":268.025,"text":"對,是他立法就是要保護那個接避者嘛是,就是避免說有一些接避者他在接避之後他不會說身家受影響或工作受影響我想這個是這個法律的立法目的我覺得這個應該不是應該沒有什麼問題"},{"start":269.426,"end":269.446,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":284.107,"end":307.856,"text":"但是前階段因為違反偵查不公開的泄密行為已經讓他很慘了那我之前在這個地方有跟所有的人報告過我以前自己偵辦案件的實際例子是我辦貪污罪條例他只是基層公務員然後案子來他只是一個他治案而已但是因為案由是貪污罪條例他來之後我跟他問完案子而且我是"},{"start":308.456,"end":308.476,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":327.691,"end":357.371,"text":"因為那張傳票上面是貪污職位條例他講長官嚇得半死他家裡面的人也嚇得半死那長官馬上把他移位置移到別的那個比較邊邊去比較不重要的位置那我的意思是這樣因為那個東西對我來說我的印象很深刻所以後來我自己在帶學習司法官的時候我都會拿這個例子告訴我帶過的每一位學習司法官因為你法官檢察官一個不經意的動作甚至一張傳票你就害慘了一個人的一輩子"},{"start":357.991,"end":359.893,"text":"更何況違反偵查不公開"},{"start":379.89,"end":401.823,"text":"那部長跟次長你也知道其實有很多例子都是這樣前面社會已經把他罵到社會死了後面發現欸狀況原來不是這樣所以請部長次長一定要非常非常非常用心我們來改善這偵查不公開的問題尤其是特定媒體總是在執行後馬上把大量資料丟出來"},{"start":402.663,"end":427.852,"text":"那個資料detail的細節已經到不可能一般人會知道的程度就像我剛剛跟兩位報告我去問過當事人他連他家扣多少錢都知道而且不是地檢署發的新聞稿他沒有辦法接受啊在他的保險箱裡面那幾本護照都知道我覺得這是不對的再麻煩兩位能夠盡量解決那下一頁那譬如說我們在講最近"},{"start":428.872,"end":455.343,"text":"最近發生這個詐騙集團的案子這個案子其實很重傷我們司法圈因為扯到法官扯到檢察官連檢察官法官都涉入進去了律師也一群都涉入在裡面那你看譬如說像這一張監視器的畫面這個是院方的監視器拍到的"},{"start":457.339,"end":482.812,"text":"委員會有沒有可能給?當然有可能啊但是這我也是擔心是不是檢方流出去的因為院方他會隨便給記者來要監視器就給嗎?其實我是打一個問號所以這個案子雖然我沒有辦法說是檢方洩漏偵查的資料但是也許這是讓我們去反省因為一次一次這樣的事情發生讓民眾對我們的信任度越來越低對司法的信任度越來越低"},{"start":483.712,"end":483.732,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":500.957,"end":523.027,"text":"兩位以前也接辦過就是檢舉同仁的案子我以前樹攤的時候也辦很多檢舉同仁的案子如果這個洩出去對同仁是傷害多重所以我還是覺得至少我在這邊這四年我一定會盯緊政黨的部分因為這個對官員對公務員對民眾都是很大的風險存在"},{"start":524.329,"end":544.971,"text":"那我們再往下看齁那這段時間我有發現一個狀況就是依據偵查不公開的檢討小組我發現這段時間他檢討出來的數字其實是狀況是很不好的雖然我們檢討的件數很多可是就108到112年其實我們機關內部查處人數是零"},{"start":548.052,"end":571.882,"text":"每一個案子都洩露的這麼的徹底我們不要講遠的案子就講這一次這個有法官檢察官涉入的這個炸雞集團的案子他就把內部多少資料都流出來了那這個難道法務部可以不去用心去處理嗎那再來還有一個問題是我想要提到比較實務面的就是"},{"start":573.14,"end":600.538,"text":"我們雖然一直有說對於媒體記者跟檢察官的之間的這個問題管制要不要把它處理好因為我們都知道嘛現在檢察官都是兩三個人一間或三四個人一間那我們現在的櫃子都放不下都只能我以前當檢察官的時候我幾乎就是在圈海裡面嘛桌上櫃子全滿地上也都是滿滿的走路還要跨過那個圈來走路那"},{"start":601.218,"end":617.994,"text":"今天如果我們沒有很嚴格的去管制記者跟甲官來拜訪的時候那這記者經理辦公室是可以翻你的卷的那常常我們有時候去外勤去內勤或去開庭人不在辦公室"},{"start":618.575,"end":618.595,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":638.188,"end":638.208,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":656.957,"end":656.977,"text":"吳宗憲議員"},{"start":681.357,"end":706.835,"text":"那如果有別的檢察官在我相信記者不敢亂翻別人的券但是如果都沒有的時候會不會我這個我不敢說那其實這個跟查詐欺集團一樣你要查幕後首腦很難查但是我們做源頭的管理就查那個帳戶那一樣我們要查到底是誰洩密真的不容易那我們是不是可以去從他可能消息來源的那個管道去控一下"},{"start":707.415,"end":735.527,"text":"就是記者跟檢察官之間的那個狀況那我們是不是可以讓記者要找檢察官不是不行但你要確認那個檢察官在由那個檢察官負責從頭到尾的接待阿否則他會不會再怎麼做我不清楚那拜託就是不要讓偵查不公開變成是偵查大公開啦或變成一些特定的媒體他每次那個新聞出來都很傷人好不好"},{"start":736.127,"end":736.827,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}