{"error":false,"id":["152869"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152869,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152869","日期":"2024-05-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-25","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":25,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-23T09:17:28+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-23T09:31:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453d73c8a7c30988b1abde51848baade82980469f81d004428334d5112c71ed9d465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:17:28 - 09:31:26","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時17分）主席，我們是不是請法務部次長。"],["主席：請法務部次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：謝謝主席，委員早！"],["沈委員發惠：徐次長早！今天我們委員會以很快的速度來排審目前民間大家最關心的，有關於行政院所推出打詐四法其中最重要清源的一個防制機制，就是洗錢防制法。行政院通過打詐四法，我們是要讓民眾知道，在目前的法制基礎之下，我們對於打擊詐騙的決心，因此我們這四法裡面除了詐欺犯罪防制條例這樣一個清源的防制之外，另外，就資通的部分，有通訊保障及監察法，還有科技偵查及保障法，接下來最重要的，剛剛講的是下游的溯源，真正清源的是洗錢防制法。就洗錢防制法，目前這些相關的漏洞，我們必須要補足，沒有補足的話，我們現在所進行的這些打擊詐騙事實上都在這個部分會有問題。","剛才我也聽次長報告我們這次洗錢防制法的整個修正重點，我看一個是第六條的修正，就是相關的這些入刑化，就是提供虛擬資產服務、第三方支付服務的如果未完成法遵登記或者是沒有完成服務能量登錄的話，還有境外公司必須要落地登記，否則，如果沒有完成這個，而執行相關業務，就入刑化，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：再來是第二十條新增特殊洗錢犯罪態樣，有關虛擬資產帳號、第三方支付這些犯罪工具，我們也訂定洗錢態樣的相關規範。雖然洗錢防制法是由法務部主管，但是我們發現在這次的修正上面，事實上，業務重點一個在金管會、一個在數發部，他們是真正執行的單位，對不對？次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["沈委員發惠：目前有關虛擬資產的部分是由金管會主管，第三方支付是由數發部主管，基本上整個修法的大方向，我是非常支持的，因為這目前確實是洗錢防制的一個大漏洞。但是我們來看看目前的修法，我覺得還有一些問題，除了今天所要修正的法條之外，還有幾個問題，包括業界現況，雖然這不是你們主管，但是要訂定的相關辦法，這部分可能要責成法務部請這些相關主管單位儘速訂定，因為這部法裡面有很多都要授權各相關主管機關訂定子法，這些子法完成，整個洗錢防制的法律架構才會完善。","就目前的修法方向，有關第六條第一項後段境外公司的落地問題，我個人對於目前的法條有一些不太明瞭的地方要就教次長，目前按照第六條第一項後段的規定，境外設立之提供虛擬資產服務、第三方支付服務之事業或人員非依公司法辦理公司或分公司設立登記，並完成洗錢防制法遵聲明或第三方支付服務能量登錄，否則不得在國內提供虛擬資產服務，這是我們的要件。其法律效果規定在第四項，違反第一項之規定處二年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科或併科新臺幣五百萬以下之罰金。次長，如果這些境外設立的公司在臺灣沒有登記、登錄卻執行相關業務，它的公司或分公司都沒有落地，我們要怎麼樣對它執行第六條第四款之規定呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們還是會處罰行為人，因為它還沒有做公司登記，如果它在中華民國境內有這些違法行為，不至於沒有人在這裡卻有這些行為，所以行為人責任還是會……"],["沈委員發惠：如果在網路上面呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：網路上的話，目前……"],["沈委員發惠：因為你一定要在臺灣落地才能夠執行，但是它就是沒有登記、沒有落地，我們對這個公司有管轄權嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：現在金管會對於特許行業相關法令規定並沒有針對未經金管會許可的境外業者，在我國境內提供相關活動的定義和禁止規定。"],["沈委員發惠：所以我現在就是針對要修正的第六條後段，境外設立公司沒有辦理落地的情況，我們要怎麼處罰它？要處罰誰？怎麼處罰？第六條第四項的法律效果要怎麼執行？"],["徐次長錫祥：我剛才有特別提到，如果他人有來境內……"],["沈委員發惠：如果沒有呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個就變成是一個事實的問題，我們……"],["沈委員發惠：這就是一個漏洞，所以在相關的法律效果上面，我們應該在網路上能夠遮蔽或禁止……"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，這個是另外一個法律的問題，我們採取遮蔽或把它下架，是為了防止它犯罪所做的，跟這個又不太一樣。"],["沈委員發惠：因為我看這一條就是有這個疑慮、疑問，你要怎麼對這個境外公司執行法律效果？這個部分請法務部研議。我現在要請金管會和數發部，次長先請回。"],["主席：請金管會、數發部。"],["沈委員發惠：動作快一點！"],["主席：沒關係，再加1分鐘。"],["黃組長錫和：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：我先請教金管會，有關虛擬資產交易平臺、VASP交易平臺，目前通貨平臺業者有幾家？"],["黃組長錫和：目前完成法遵聲明的業者一共有25家。"],["沈委員發惠：25家都已經完成法遵聲明，還沒有完成法遵聲明的有多少？"],["黃組長錫和：這部分我們沒有詳細的統計，但是跟我們申請的境外業者有六十幾家。"],["沈委員發惠：目前境外業者在臺灣有執行業務的有幾家？"],["黃組長錫和：目前我們查獲7家有廣告招攬行為。"],["沈委員發惠：7家有廣告招攬行為。"],["黃組長錫和：我們都已經移送給法務部。"],["沈委員發惠：個人幣商的部分呢？你們目前怎麼樣管制？"],["黃組長錫和：個人幣商的部分如果按照現有的法制，他們還是必須要按照營業登記法和稅籍登記的部分去做登記。"],["沈委員發惠：目前針對虛擬資產管理的部分，我們還沒有虛擬資產管理專法，這部分目前是依照10大原則，對不對？"],["黃組長錫和：對，我們有訂定一個指導原則。"],["沈委員發惠：你們有訂定一個10大指導原則。再請問數發部，剛才是關於虛擬資產的部分，第三方支付的部分是由數發部主管，對不對？"],["林副署長俊秀：是。"],["沈委員發惠：就數發部的瞭解，目前在經濟部辦理公司登記業務當中包括第三方支付的有幾家？"],["林副署長俊秀：一萬四千多家。"],["沈委員發惠：這一萬四千多家裡面實收資本額是零的有幾家？你們有沒有瞭解？"],["林副署長俊秀：這我們要查一下。"],["沈委員發惠：有八千多家，公司登記都有第三方支付業務，但是根本就沒有在執行第三方支付業務有八千多家，目前實際上經營第三方支付服務的公司行號其實不到100家，到目前為止，這不到100家業者中有申請能量登錄的有幾家？"],["林副署長俊秀：有81家。"],["沈委員發惠：現在每天付款的日平均額超過10億元的有幾家？"],["林副署長俊秀：7家。"],["沈委員發惠：事實上，這7家就納入由金管會納管？"],["林副署長俊秀：不是，20億以上才會由金管會。"],["沈委員發惠：20億以上必須要納入由金管會納管。有關虛擬資產和第三方支付的部分，請問金管會，今天修正草案第六條第二項規定，提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員辦理前項洗錢防制登記之申請條件、程序、撤銷或廢止，有關的相關辦法包括洗錢防制登記之申請條件、程序、撤銷或廢止、虛擬資產上下架，應遵行之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關定之，中央目的事業主管機關是誰？"],["黃組長錫和：就是金管會。"],["沈委員發惠：依照第六條第二項規定，我們必須要訂定相關辦法，目前有沒有相關辦法？"],["黃組長錫和：我們已經做委外研究，在授權條文通過之後，我們可以在6個月之內按照法制作業完成。"],["沈委員發惠：我現在看到的是剛剛講的十大原則，目前是用行政指導在做，這個位階實在是太低，你們儘快按照第六條第二項規定，相關的辦法應該要儘快來擬定，你們預計什麼時候會送虛擬資產專法？剛剛我們講的相關辦法，現在是行政指導原則的辦法，真正最終的處理方式還是必須應該要有相關的專法，你們大概什麼時候會完成？"],["黃組長錫和：專法我們也已經委外研究。"],["沈委員發惠：還在委外研究？"],["黃組長錫和：我們在9月底之前會提出行政報告的初稿。"],["沈委員發惠：9月底會提出初稿，你們預計什麼時候要送出草案？"],["黃組長錫和：我們在年底會完成委外的正式報告，至於那個……"],["沈委員發惠：年底完成的還是報告？"],["黃組長錫和：對。如果是專法的部分，昨天我們彭主委在財委會有答詢，會在明年提出來。"],["沈委員發惠：明年提出來啦？"],["黃組長錫和：對。"],["沈委員發惠：整個打詐系統，包括洗錢防制、包括虛擬資產的管理，整個都是配套的啦！絕對不是只有法務部的責任，好不好？以上。"],["黃組長錫和：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。","接下來請謝委員龍介發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 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告我們這次整個洗錢防制法整個修正的重點"},{"start":121.089,"end":139.148,"text":"我看大概就是一個是第六條的修正就是有關相關的這些入刑化就是把這個虛擬資產服務跟第三方支付的服務如果這個未完成法尊登記或者是這個第三方支付沒有完成能量登錄的話"},{"start":140.209,"end":166.627,"text":"還有近外公司必須要落地登記否則的話如果沒有完成執行相關業務我們就入刑化對不對再來大概就是第二十條新增特殊的洗錢犯罪的太陽有關虛擬資產帳號第三方支付這些犯罪工具我們也訂定相關的洗錢太陽的規範"},{"start":170.899,"end":194.667,"text":"那這個我大概但是因為齁雖然這個這個法規洗錢防制是由法務部主管但是事實上我們我們發現說在這一次的修訂修正上面事實上業務的重點事實上一個在經管會一個在訴法部了真正真正要執行這個對不對市長我目前目前這個這個大概大概一個一個有關這個這個"},{"start":197.932,"end":199.173,"text":"四）如經院會復議．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":218.171,"end":235.319,"text":"但是實際上在我們來看目前的這個修法我覺得還有幾個問題還有一些問題齁除了這個法條的我們今天所修正的之外齁還有幾個有關於這個包括現況業界的現況這不是你們主管但是有關的相關的要定定的有一些相關辦法齁"},{"start":236.58,"end":238.261,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":259.5,"end":274.421,"text":"我現在就目前的這個修法第六條的這個第一項後段的部分有關境外公司的這個落地問題這部分我個人是對於現在目前這個我們的法條上面有一些不太明瞭的地方來就交次長"},{"start":275.868,"end":296.866,"text":"目前我們這個規定按照這個第六條第一項的這個後段近外設立的這個提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務事業人員非依公司法辦理公司或者分公司的登記然後完成洗錢防制的這個法遵聲明或者是這個這個第三方支付的服務能量登錄要完成這個否則不得在國內提供虛擬資產服務"},{"start":304.242,"end":327.504,"text":"這是我們的要件。但是我們法律效果定在這個第四項。所以說違反第一項是規定除兩年以下有歧途刑、拘役或科或病科新台幣500萬以下的罰金。市長那他如果這些外國這些在境外設立的這些公司他在台灣如果沒有登記沒有登錄"},{"start":328.871,"end":356.472,"text":"然後他執行相關的業務他公司跟公司都沒有落地那我們要怎麼樣對他來執行這個第六條第四款之規定呢?我們還是會處罰行為人因為他還沒有做公司登記那今天他在我們中華民國境內有這些違法的行為不至於說沒有人在這裡有所以我們行為人責任...不過在網路上面呢"},{"start":358.895,"end":360.496,"text":"網路上的話目前我們說你一定要在台灣落地才能夠執行但是他就是沒有登記沒有落地啊"},{"start":371.551,"end":398.601,"text":"那我們對這個公司我們有管轄權嗎?現在經管會對於特許行業相關法令規定並沒有針對未經經管會許可的境外業者在我國境內提供相關活動的定義跟禁止規定所以我現在就針對這個我們現在要修正的第六條的後段這個境外設立公司沒有辦理落地的我們要怎麼處罰他?"},{"start":401.164,"end":422.21,"text":"如果...呃...處罰誰?怎麼處罰?我們這個第六條第四項的這個法律效果要怎麼樣...我剛才有特別聽到說如果他人是有來境內阿如果沒有呢?這個...這個就變成一個是一個事實的問題我們...對所以這就是一個漏洞啊?呃..."},{"start":424.795,"end":449.155,"text":"所以例如說例如說我們在相關的法律效果上面我們應該在網路上我們能夠去遮蔽或者去禁止禁止報告委員這個是另外一個法律的問題就是我們是用遮蔽的或把它下架的那是防止他犯罪所做的跟這一個又不太一樣因為我看這一條我就是有這個疑問就是說你要怎麼樣來"},{"start":453.678,"end":462.984,"text":"來對這個境外公司進行考慮效果是是好這部分請法務部這邊研議啦那我現在要請這個這個經管會經管會跟這個蘇發部來請經管會蘇發部好這個次長你先請回來動作快一點委員好沒關係再加一分鐘好"},{"start":484.552,"end":506.21,"text":"目前我先請教經管會有關目前虛擬資產的部分我們這個交易平台目前通貨平台業者有幾家目前就是完成法專聲明的業者一共有25家25家都已經完成法專聲明"},{"start":513.417,"end":534.811,"text":"這個沒有完成還沒有完成法證聲明的有多少這部分我們沒有詳細的統計但是跟我們申請的境外業者目前境外業者在台灣有在執行業務的幾家目前我們查獲是有7家有廣告招攬的行為有7家有廣告招攬的行為個人避傷的部分呢我們目前怎麼樣管制"},{"start":535.97,"end":536.951,"text":"我看是我們是依照這個十大原則對不對"},{"start":564.893,"end":580.587,"text":"對我們有定一個指導原則我們定一個這個指導原則啦十大指導原則啦齁好那我現在請問蘇發部剛才是這個虛擬資產的部分啦齁那第三方支付的部分是蘇發部管嘛對不對第三方支付目前"},{"start":581.889,"end":606.06,"text":"以你們蘇發部的了解經濟部目前有辦理這個公司登記他們公司登記的業務有包括第三方支付的有幾家一萬四千多家一萬四千多家一萬四千多家這一萬四千多家裡面這個這個實收資本額是零的有幾家你們會不會了解這我們要查一下但是有八千多家啦"},{"start":607.489,"end":608.149,"text":"四）如經院會復議．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":622.745,"end":648.576,"text":"到目前為止這不到一百家已經業者有申請要能量登錄的有幾家?有八十一家有八十一家是不是?八十一家現在每天的付款年日平均額超過十億元的有幾家?"},{"start":652.977,"end":671.882,"text":"七家有七家七家這個這個七家他就事實上就就有金就納入有金管會來不是二十億以上才會有金管會二十億以上對二十億以上必須要納入這個有金管會金管會來來來來這個納管吼那這個好這個有"},{"start":678.12,"end":703.052,"text":"有關這個虛擬資產齁跟我們這個第三方支付的這個部分齁我看到我們這個目前這個提這個有關這個齁我先再請金管會啦齁這我們現在目前今天修法的齁第六條第二項我們提有有規定說提供虛擬資產服務之事業事業或人員齁辦理前項的前剛講前項的洗錢防制"},{"start":704.172,"end":705.233,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":725.891,"end":751.614,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關定資。中央目的主管機關是誰?就金管會。就金管會。我們目前這個進度我們依照這第六條第二項我們就是要必定相關辦法嗎?對。目前有沒有相關辦法?我們已經做偶爾研究。那我們可以在這個我們這個授權的這個條文通過之後我們可以在六個月之內按照法制作業完成。"},{"start":754.404,"end":770.068,"text":"我現在看到的是剛剛講的十大原則目前是用行政指導在做這個位階實在是太低你們盡快按照這個第六條第二項你們這個相關的辦法應該要盡快來擬定盡快來擬定然後這個虛擬資產的專法你們預計什麼時候"},{"start":776.824,"end":791.33,"text":"預計什麼時候會有專法?我們從剛剛講的這些相關的辦法現在從行政指導原則相關的辦法到真正的最終的處理方式還是必須應該要有相關的專法你們大概什麼時候會完成?"},{"start":792.026,"end":811.648,"text":"報告委員專訪我們也已經委外研究我們在9月份的9月底之前會提出我們的這個9月底會提出的初稿初稿那什麼時候你們預計什麼時候要要要這個這個這個送出草案我們在年底會完成那個就是正式委外的正式報告那至於那個年底完成了還是報告"},{"start":812.749,"end":835.193,"text":"對,但是如果說是專法的部分,昨天我們彭主委有在會有答詢是在會在明年提出來明年提出來啦對因為我們相關的我們這些有關的這個這個這個我們整個打詐的系統包括洗錢防制包括虛擬資產的管理這個整個都是配套的啦這絕對不是只有法務部的責任啦好不好好以上謝謝委員謝謝沈委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}