{"error":false,"id":["152883"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152883,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152883","日期":"2024-05-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-23T10:11:32+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-23T10:19:24+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:52","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4531c2e5982ee9732daf1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e8309b7597af34b2fa75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:11:32 - 10:19:24","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":419,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時11分）謝謝主席，我想要請李鎂主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["謝委員衣鳯：其實大家非常擔心，就是Uber Eats跟foodpanda外送平台的併購，他們兩個合併以後，到底會不會影響到目前小吃店每一單要支付的比例是多少，以及未來外送員的權益是多少，如果Uber Eats跟foodpanda合併以後，會不會影響到現在已經是薄利多銷的平價小吃，未來會變成絕響？請主委回答。"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員，這個併購案我們在審查的過程中，也會把是不是因為競爭對手減少了，併購方有提高抬價的能力，您剛提到的問題，我們會一起綜合評估。"],["謝委員衣鳯：他們兩個合併以後，市占率是不是超過五成？你們現在預計它是怎麼樣子的一個比率？"],["李主任委員鎂：這是第一大跟第二大，結合以後市占率是很高的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：超過五成以上一定是有的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個市場界定還要再精細一點，我們在109年的時候曾經做過分析，應有七、八成以上。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以是七、八成之多？"],["李主任委員鎂：這是109年的數字，現在因為時間也過了幾年，所以要重新做市場的界定、要重新評估。"],["謝委員衣鳯：在市占率這麼高的情況下，會不會他們兩個合併以後，就造成所有店家支付給外送平台這樣一個售價比例會提高？如果提高的話，所有這些平價的業者都沒有辦法有跟他們議價的能力，以及現在已經有非常多的外送員講到的勞動權利問題。我想請問李主委，到時候他們一定會提出說明的時候，你們會用什麼樣子的點來要求他們？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想剛才委員提到的，包括外送員、包括餐廳以及消費者，這些將來跟併購方的議價能力、談判能力，這部分我們在審查的過程都會去評估，當然也要看併購方提出的結合計畫相關的內容，因為是5月14號才送件，我們現在還在彙整這些資料。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那要怎麼樣去確保勞動權利？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想將來委員會會去充分討論。"],["謝委員衣鳯：勞動部專委，你剛才聽到主委說了，如果是超過五成，可能有達到七、八成之多，這樣子的一個合併案，怎麼樣確保目前Uber Eats跟foodpanda所有外送人員的勞動權利？勞動部要怎麼確保？"],["主席：請勞動部。"],["許專門委員根魁：跟委員回答，其實目前針對業者跟工會之間，我們有一個平台的會議，我們都會讓他們在這平台會議針對雙方問題進行一些對答，讓他們意見能夠互相……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是現在有兩家的情況下，可是未來合併成為一家……"],["許專門委員根魁：我們這個平台會議還是會繼續進行。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，可是當有兩家的時候，他們不選這一家，還可以選擇另外一家，可是未來兩家變成一家的情況下，你就變成沒有選擇性，在沒有選擇性的時候，勞動部針對相關的勞動權利應該要有另外的計畫，我希望你把這個意見帶回去，針對這個案子，應該要在未來的公聽會以及相關的會議上表達勞動部的意見，好不好？"],["許專門委員根魁：好，沒問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：李主委，我還要請問一下，當初你們同意了全聯跟大潤發的併購案，可是你們希望說，不要用禁止最惠客戶政策，就是不要用低價的方式來削價競爭，可是你們也罰了全聯，對不對？代表了這麼大的市占率的大型併購裡面，公平會過去的審查並沒有辦法確保我們消費者的權利，因為如果他們提高了每一單商品價格比例的時候，有可能最後還是會轉嫁到消費者身上，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們罰全聯2,000萬，是因為當時跟大潤發結合的時候，我們有給它一些負擔跟條件，所以它是因為沒有履行這些負擔跟條件而受處罰。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，我是說當初你給他們了，可是他們也沒有辦法完全按照這些要求來做，這只是其中的一件而已，未來你怎麼樣確保，就是Uber Eats跟foodpanda合併以後，如果他們提高了每一單商品售價的比例，因為他們都是抽取商品價格每一單的比例，現在是30%到33%，是有這樣子比例，未來如果他們收取的比例更高的情況下，有可能就會轉嫁到餐廳，而一些平價餐廳就會提高在平臺上面的商品售價，甚至會影響到店的商品售價，如果兩相提高的情況下，就會影響到消費者的權益，這怎麼處理？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員問的這個問題就是涉及到結合以後，併購方是不是因為競爭對手減少而有抬價的能力，這一部分我們在整個審查過程也會去注意到。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我知道你會注意到，但我問你要如何確保？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想將來委員會討論的時候，在我們審查的過程中會一起去討論。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會討論，那你會不會確保消費者的權益，不會因為這樣而被抬價……"],["李主任委員鎂：消費者的權益對經濟的影響，是不是有限制競爭，這個會一起綜合來評估。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你會不會把消費者權益也一併納入考量？"],["李主任委員鎂：消費者權益也是我們要一起考慮的面向。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我希望你們要記得消費者權利，以及不要損及商家的利益，還有平價餐廳、店家的利益，以及這些外送平台外送員的利益，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員。","接下來我們請賴瑞隆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","李坤城","羅智強","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","黃捷","蔡易餘","林岱樺","陳冠廷","陳超明"],"page_start":153,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及\n對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢；二、審查：(一)本院委員邱志偉等16人擬\n具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳\n銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.31221875,"end":11.640968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.277843750000002,"end":13.851593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.75784375,"end":20.550968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.17534375,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.79034375,"end":30.996593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.17784375,"end":35.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.97471875,"end":52.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.461593750000006,"end":59.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.852843750000005,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.43784375,"end":70.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.00721875,"end":86.16096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.75159375000001,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.96221875,"end":89.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.02971875,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.97471875000001,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.02534375,"end":90.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.04221875,"end":90.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.14346875000001,"end":90.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.97034375000001,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.03784375000001,"end":91.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.30784375,"end":91.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.42596875000001,"end":91.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.47659375,"end":91.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.56096875,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.96596875,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.03346875000001,"end":92.28659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.28659375000001,"end":92.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.69159375000001,"end":92.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.75909375,"end":92.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.97846875,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.02909375,"end":94.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.90221875,"end":94.98659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.03721875000001,"end":99.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.13846875,"end":95.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.54284375,"end":103.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.10346875,"end":104.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.65596875,"end":123.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.69221875000001,"end":116.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.99471875,"end":126.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.66096875000001,"end":126.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.91409375,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.96471875,"end":129.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.74909375000001,"end":138.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.40596875,"end":140.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.12284375000002,"end":163.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.05596875,"end":170.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.02534375000002,"end":172.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.81409375,"end":172.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.84784375,"end":183.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.91784375,"end":196.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.40534375000001,"end":198.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.46409375000002,"end":201.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.00784375,"end":203.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.01596875,"end":204.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.03284375,"end":204.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.02346875,"end":226.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.20221875000001,"end":228.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.68284375000002,"end":243.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.01409375000003,"end":246.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.11909375000002,"end":248.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.34659375,"end":268.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.57534375,"end":280.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.94909375000003,"end":282.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.99096875000004,"end":289.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.36971875,"end":291.023468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Eats跟Fupanda如果他們這個外送平台併購以後"},{"start":32.23,"end":49.705,"text":"到底他們兩個合併以後到底會不會影響到目前小吃店還要支付的就是每一單的這個比例是多少那以及未來外送員的權益是多少"},{"start":50.626,"end":55.888,"text":"如果兩個人合併以後,會不會影響到現在已經是博麗多銷的評價小吃,未來會變成絕響?請主委回答。"},{"start":71.499,"end":84.378,"text":"謝委員就是這個併購案我們在審查的過程也會把是不是因為競爭對手減少了那併購方有提高台價的能力您剛提到問題我們會一起綜合評估"},{"start":86.783,"end":113.738,"text":"他們兩個合併以後,超過市佔率,是不是超過五成?你們現在預計他是怎麼樣子的一個比率?一個是第一大跟第二大,那結合以後市佔率是很高。多少?多少?超過五成以上一定是有的。那是多少?市場界定還要再精細。我們在109年的時候曾經做過分析,有七八成以上。"},{"start":114.418,"end":128.824,"text":"所以是七八成之多這是109年那現在呢因為時間也過了幾年要再重新做市場的界定要重新評估所以如果市佔率這麼高的情況下"},{"start":130.024,"end":157.54,"text":"會不會他們兩個合併以後就造成所有店家支付給外送平台的這樣子的一個比例售價比例會提高那如果提高的時候所有的這些平價的業者都沒有辦法有跟他們議價的能力以及現在已經有非常多的外送員"},{"start":159.081,"end":171.749,"text":"講到的勞動權利的問題我想請問李主委如果他們到時候一定會提出說明的時候你們會用什麼樣子的點來要求他們"},{"start":172.864,"end":197.845,"text":"我想剛才委員提到的包括外送員包括餐廳以及消費者這些將來跟併購方的議價能力談判能力這一部分我們在審查的過程都會去評估那當然也要看併購方他提出的這個結合計畫相關的內容那因為現在呢5月14號才送件我們現在還在彙整這些資料那怎麼樣的確保勞動權利我想這將來委員會會去充分討論"},{"start":202.939,"end":226.072,"text":"勞動部的那個專委你剛才聽到主委說了如果是超過五成可能有達到七八成之多的這樣子的一個合併案怎麼樣子確保所有外送就是目前Uber Eats跟所有Foodpanda外送人員的勞動權利勞動部怎麼確保"},{"start":229.687,"end":246.963,"text":"跟委員回報其實我們目前我們都有在針對業者跟工會之間我們有一個平台的會議我們都會讓他們在這平台會議針對雙方問題進行一些對答讓他們意見能夠互相那現在有兩家的情況下可是未來是合併如果成為一家我們這個平台會議還是會繼續進行"},{"start":248.784,"end":263.194,"text":"對可是未來他們就沒有辦法當有兩家的時候他們不走這一家還可以選擇另外一家可是未來的情況是兩家變成一家的情況下你就變成沒有選擇性的那沒有選擇性的時候勞動部針對這樣子相關的勞動權利是應該要另外的計畫"},{"start":269.659,"end":278.67,"text":"我希望勞動你帶回去讓勞動部如果針對這個案子應該要在未來的公聽會以及相關的會議表達勞動部的意見好不好"},{"start":283.169,"end":309.803,"text":"還有李竺蔚我還要請問一下就是當初你們同意了全聯跟大潤發的併購案可是你們希望說不要用這樣子造成就是說用禁止最惠客戶的政策就是不要用低價的方式來消價競爭可是你們也罰了全聯對不對代表了這麼大的大型市佔率的併購裡面"},{"start":311.755,"end":331.426,"text":"公平會過去的審查並沒有辦法確保我們消費者的權利因為如果他們提高了就是每一單的就是每一單商品價格的比例的時候有可能最後還是會轉嫁到消費者身上是不是"},{"start":333.118,"end":355.371,"text":"我想這個全年我們罰他兩千萬是因為他當時跟大論法結合的時候我們給他一些負擔跟條件他沒有履行這些負擔跟條件而受處罰我知道 我是說你當初給他們了可是他們也沒有辦法就是說完全的按照那這只是其中的一件而已"},{"start":355.831,"end":370.823,"text":"二、審查８一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。．一）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。．一）本院委員楊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。．二）本院委員楊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。．二）本院委員楊瓔等24人擬具"},{"start":375.026,"end":375.426,"text":"二、審查（一）本院委員"},{"start":390.896,"end":391.076,"text":"二、審查（一）"},{"start":410.39,"end":430.167,"text":"委員問的這個問題就是涉及到說結合以後並購方是不是因為競爭對手減少而有抬價的能力這一部分我們在整個審查過程也會去注意到對那我是說我知道你會注意到我說你怎麼確保我想這將來在這個委員會討論的時候我們審查的過程會一起去討論會討論那你會不會確保"},{"start":439.235,"end":439.595,"text":"二（二（二（"},{"start":469.478,"end":469.498,"text":"謝謝好"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}