{"error":false,"id":["152888"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152888,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152888","日期":"2024-05-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-25","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":25,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-23T09:58:03+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-23T10:10:57+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:54","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453119b9fc3b4a5b508bde51848baade829d34e896d657c5e839eb79a7adb116a865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:58:03 - 10:10:57","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":637,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時58分）主席、在場的委員先進，列席的政府機關首長、官員，會場工作夥伴，媒體記者、女士、先生。有請立法院周秘書長以及司法院代表陳副廳長。"],["主席：請周秘書長及司法院陳副廳長。"],["周秘書長萬來：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好、副廳長好。先請教司法院代表，當我們立法過程有合憲性爭議的解決途徑是什麼？如果立法有合憲爭議。"],["陳副廳長信旗：有合憲爭議的話，應該就是聲請釋憲。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，聲請釋憲。我們看一下，過去我們是根據司法院大法官審理案件法第五條，現在是根據憲法訴訟法第四十九條。有個案例，釋字第603號當年有立法委員賴清德等85人聲請，當中依現制規定，立法委員現有總額要有四分之一以上，就其行使職權，認法律位階法規範牴觸憲法者，來聲請憲法法庭宣告違憲之判決，是不是這樣？"],["陳副廳長信旗：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，好，現在我們看聲請釋憲的要件，請秘書長一起看。根據我們剛剛說的第五條也好，或是後來的憲法訴訟法第四十九條，都是要行使職權，那麼在大法官第1476號會議的決議，不受理的部分，它說必須是行使職權並且投票反對。請問司法院代表，是不是認同這個決議的內容？不受理的決議它所敘明的行使職權要投票反對，你認同嗎？這是大法官的會議決議，你認為有沒有拘束力？"],["陳副廳長信旗：我們尊重大法官的說法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請秘書長。行使職權就要出席嘛，投票反對才符合聲請釋憲的資格，你同意嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：這一個尊重委員的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是啊！這不是尊重，這是司法院大法官會議嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：我沒辦法對於大法官……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是尊重大法官的說明嘛，不是尊重本席的嘛，大法官就這樣決議了嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：因為他們有做這樣的決議，因為這個不是釋憲裡面的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是決議的內容。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為當天是不受理，不受理才再做這個決議的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，不受理，如果沒有這兩個要件就不受理嘛，不是，這樣的寫法是太過牽……"],["周秘書長萬來：對……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果沒有這兩個要件就不符合，應該這樣寫才對。往下看，這是第1476次會議不受理決議，聲請人有38位立法委員，這是在107年的時候，因為他們認為前瞻條例違憲而聲請大法官解釋，後來有沒有通過？我們來看一下為什麼不同意呢？不受理決議的附件三寫明，大法官根據會議公報判斷哪些委員有出席、贊成或反對，在當天的議事錄當中，聲請委員38個之一的高金素梅委員請假，所以最後結果怎麼樣？駁回啊！大法官說什麼？因為要有38人提出才符合當時三分之一的規定，少了高金委員，他沒有出席，也就未參與表決、未行使職權，就不符合聲請人的資格。秘書長，你知道這個過程嗎？你知道這件事嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：當時的過程裡面，因為是為了前瞻預算的整體過程……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你直接講是不是這樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：我所瞭解是這種狀況，至於大法官針對這一案怎麼去處理，我未便有什麼置評，以上。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然，你不能去評論大法官，大法官就這樣認為嘛！委員38位才符合三分之一的資格，為此，國民黨那時候只有37席，他特別提出，民進黨也支持喔，後來的憲訴法怎麼樣？改成四分之一，從三分之一改成四分之一，三分之一要38席，四分之一就不用了，未來讓少數黨可以聲請釋憲，民進黨支持憲訴法的修正，將聲請釋憲的門檻從三分之一降到四分之一，你知道是這樣的情況嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不太瞭解，不太瞭解為什麼要這樣……"],["鍾委員佳濱：門檻人數降下來之後，是不是37個就可以聲請釋憲了？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個我不太瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在降成四分之一，是不是29個就可以聲請釋憲了？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個用113席去算四分之一，但是至於那個立法理由是不是這樣，我不太瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你這個算數，我就問你嘛，把三分之一降成四分之一，從37個，像現在就是28個、29個，這是數學問題，你數學不好嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我只是說用113去乘以四分之一嘛，那就可以提起釋憲……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，司法院代表請回。","5月21號的舉手表決，請看照片，現場有誰投了反對票？有沒有確定誰有在場投票？這樣能夠聲請釋憲嗎？如果有委員要聲請釋憲。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這是議事的過程，我未便表示意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：未便表示意見，那你就在這邊現場聽好，我們往下看，立法院有幾種表決方式，這可以講了吧？根據議事規則，有幾種表決方式？有5種嘛，請告訴我有哪幾種？你不用再翻閱條文浪費時間。第一個，是不是口頭表決？第二個是舉手表決，第三個是表決器表決，第四個是投票表決，第五個是點名表決，是不是這樣？查到沒有？要不要告訴你第幾頁？"],["周秘書長萬來：第三十五條，我知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯嘛，一、二、三、四、五這5種，是不是這樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：是啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下第三種的表決器表決，後面我們看到第一種的口頭表決跟第五種的點名表決，口頭表決相當於不記名嘛，因為口頭表決怎麼會知道是誰，但是點名表決就相當於記名嘛，請問舉手表決到底是屬於記名的項目還是不記名的項目？"],["周秘書長萬來：舉手表決是一個方式啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有辦法具名？有沒有達到記名或不記名？口頭表決不曉得是誰啊？你知道什麼叫口頭表決嗎？你要不要示範一下？"],["周秘書長萬來：如果你要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你有沒有遇到過口頭表決的情況？在立法院，就你過去所知。"],["周秘書長萬來：我要這樣說明……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為你是專家，因為口頭表決的概念在臺灣……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你告訴我，現場怎麼口頭表決？我告訴你啦，你聽我講啦，贊成請說贊成（贊成）、反對請說反對，我聽聲音，大聲的，贊成多於反對，贊成比較大聲，這叫口頭表決，口頭表決是沒有辦法具名的；舉手表決可以點數，對不對？我們往下看舉手表決，議事人員如何計算？你們點出53人啊，可能有其他政黨的來舉手表決支持民進黨，哪二個我也不清楚。再往下看，立法院職權行使法第六條規定「以出席委員過半數之同意行之」是不是？出席委員過半數嘛，對不對？你如何確定出席委員過半數？要先確有多少人出席，110人出席的過半數就是56人，100人出席的過半數就是51，對不對？是不是這樣子？是就講出來啊！是不是？不要點頭而已，是不是？"],["周秘書長萬來：是啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們議事規則第三十六條規定「表決，應就可否兩方依次行之。」要先問可的、贊成的請舉手；然後是反對的請舉手，本席在主持司法及法制委員會也是一樣，現場除主席之外11人，贊成的請舉手，6人；反對的請舉手，5人，贊成多於反對，是不是這樣子？"],["周秘書長萬來：這是在委員會啦，院會不是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，委員會，很好！委員會……"],["周秘書長萬來：院會不是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在委員會裡面因為沒有表決器，所以我們可以現場判斷。請看下一個，我們院會是不是用表決器？是不是用表決器？你看一下，是不是用表決器？表決器的按鈕有「出席」，黃色是棄權、紅色是反對、綠色是贊成，每位委員必須先簽到，在院會當天有簽到才能領卡，必須人在裡面才能插卡，插了卡才能按出席，你不按出席那個白鈕，不能顯示你是反對還是贊成，一旦你按了出席按鈕，你就被記錄為出席人數了，你按了贊成就顯示綠燈，按了反對就顯示紅燈，所以我們用表決器，按二個鈕，最後出來的結果會顯示出席人數、贊成多少人及反對多少人，一清二楚，還有名字，是不是這樣子？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為當天以不同的方式……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以表決器是不是記名表決？"],["周秘書長萬來：當天以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不是問你當天，我問你表決器是不是記名表決？"],["周秘書長萬來：為什麼主席……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問你嘛！使用表決器是不是屬於一種記名表決？是不是很清楚？"],["周秘書長萬來：表決器……"],["鍾委員佳濱：清不清楚？"],["周秘書長萬來：表決器也有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問你這樣清不清楚嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：你聽我說，表決器有記名表決跟不記名表決。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你示範給我看不記名表決，表決器怎麼不記名表決？"],["周秘書長萬來：表決器可以用記名的，也可以不記名，沒錯，我們在場的同事都知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長，我現在問你，立法院職權行使法，我們有投票表決，有沒有？有6種投票表決，是不是？你有告訴我，我們立法院投票表決，依照職權行使法有6種，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：6種方式，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：6種情況，有不信任案等6種情況……"],["周秘書長萬來：6種議案的處理方式……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有不信任案、覆議案、緊急命令、彈劾、罷免及人事同意權等共有6種，其中3種要記名、3種不記名，那是投票，記名投票在選票上有你的名字，不記名投票在票上沒有你的名字。","再看下一頁，我們來看看公報記載的贊成、反對跟棄權名單，立法院的法案表決都會出現這個名單，請問一下，上週五跟本週二在最後的立法院公報會出現這個贊成、反對的名單嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我要這樣說明……"],["鍾委員佳濱：會不會？你告訴我會不會？"],["周秘書長萬來：不是，我要這樣說明，因為你這樣的，我沒辦法答復你。"],["鍾委員佳濱：怎麼沒辦法答復？你告訴我會不會嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：因為舉手表決方式是主席在採用的狀況之下……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不管嘛，公報會不會有紀錄誰贊成、誰反對？"],["周秘書長萬來：我是跟各位報告，在長期的例裡面都有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼長期？"],["周秘書長萬來：都有舉手表決的方式在，我們可以從……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在問你，舉手表決的結果會不會在公報上有贊成跟反對的兩種名字出現？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為舉手表決跟表決器的記名表決當然會不一樣嘛，這一定不一樣的啊，表決器的表決也有不記名的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好啦，看啦，這是立法院的秘書長在胡說八道的鏡頭啦！"],["周秘書長萬來：不、不、不，你們可以去看，表決器也可以不記名表決的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在問你舉手表決，可不可以告訴我，大會公報會不會記載誰贊成誰反對？你只要回答這一點。"],["周秘書長萬來：當然啊……"],["鍾委員佳濱：舉手表決可不可以？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然這裡……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然不行嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：我剛才已經跟你報告了……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然不行嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：因為表決器有出問題……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你如果用舉手表決在立法，不能區別贊成跟反對……"],["周秘書長萬來：……所以才改採舉手表決嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們未來如何去聲請釋憲？"],["周秘書長萬來：可以，你們聲請釋憲，我幕僚，我不會去介入這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你作為幕僚，你沒有讓立法的表決留下贊成跟反對，大法官要如何判斷你是出席而且行使職權、行使反對？"],["周秘書長萬來：那他會去看紀錄。"],["鍾委員佳濱：會議紀錄也沒有寫誰贊成誰反對啊！所以你再看一看，要大法官去看圖說話嗎？要大法官看照片來勘驗證據，看哪一位委員贊成、哪一位委員反對嗎？還是在喊口號？","我今天用這個機會就是要凸顯出立法院秘書長在韓院長大會主席主持院會的時候，沒有辦法、沒有能力來判斷，我要告訴你，你身為立法院的幕僚長，你身為秘書長，又號稱是我們立法院的百科全書、百科字典，你對議事規則嫻熟，請問舉手表決未依可否俱呈，有效嗎？這是立法院職權行使法第六條規定要同意過半數，你沒有先清點人數，不知道在場人數是110人還是100人，舉手的時候怎麼知道？第二是要可否並行啊！都沒有踐行這樣的程序，這樣的表決是無效的！第三，法案的表決涉及到未來合憲性爭議的問題，我們要聲請釋憲，你要採具名的方式，具名有幾種？點名是不是具名？我問你，點名是不是具名？"],["周秘書長萬來：點名……"],["鍾委員佳濱：表決器可不可以用具名？"],["周秘書長萬來：表決器我剛才說明，有記名、不記名嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：可不可以具名？可以嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：不，有記名、不記名……"],["鍾委員佳濱：投票可不可以記名？"],["周秘書長萬來：但是我剛才……"],["鍾委員佳濱：投票可不可以記名？可以嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：投票沒有，投票就是投票啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：表決器可以記名，點名可以記名……"],["周秘書長萬來：投票沒有用……沒有表決器去……"],["鍾委員佳濱：投票也可以記名，但是舉手表決沒有辦法記名，我們未來的法案表決要確定用具名的方式，確保我們釋憲的聲請可以合乎要件。秘書長，你如果未來不能堅持這兩點，我們保證把你從主席台上趕下來。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：請羅委員智強發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 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程序這樣的表決是無效的。第二"},{"start":719.005,"end":736.512,"text":"法案的表決涉及到未來合憲性爭議的問題。我要申請釋憲。你要採具名的方式。具名有幾種?點名是不是具名?我問你,點名是不是具名?表決器可不可以用具名?可以具名,可不可以具名?可以嗎?投票可不可以具名?投票可不可以具名?可以嗎?表決器可以具名?"},{"start":744.335,"end":744.675,"text":"眾嘉賓委員的諮詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}