{"error":false,"id":["152889"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152889,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152889","日期":"2024-05-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-25","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":25,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-23T10:11:08+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-23T10:25:27+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:19","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453a71403eb23286f7dbde51848baade829d34e896d657c5e83d4a3e208f4f0935e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:11:08 - 10:25:27","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":753,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時11分）主席，有請周秘書長。"],["主席：有請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：羅委員早。"],["羅委員智強：秘書長，我們的鍾召委非常有氣勢，非常霸氣，要把你從主席台趕下來，你有沒有被嚇到？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不會，我不在乎這個位子，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：要把你從主席台趕下來。我告訴各位，我今天就欣賞我們鍾召委把心裡話說出來，鍾召委說要把大家從主席台趕下來，這就是……"],["主席：我沒有說「大家」喔。"],["羅委員智強：他說要把周萬來從主席台趕下來，要把他從主席台趕下來，好，我就要跟各位講，請問周秘書長，為什麼當天我們必須要採取舉手投票，為什麼？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為有一個因素產生，所以不得不採用舉手表決。"],["羅委員智強：您很中立，我不為難你，但我來講講因素是什麼。當天是不是發生民進黨立委拔掉國民黨的計票卡，有沒有？","抱歉，影片都有喔，鍾召委，影片都有喔，很清楚影片都有喔。","我想請問秘書長，今天民進黨說要把人從主席台拉下來，一直攻上去，主席台被占了以後，有辦法表決嗎？有辦法表決嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：那這樣的話，就大概由主席來看當時的情況再決定……"],["羅委員智強：我說如果民進黨把主席台占下來，把麥克風拔掉，還有辦法表決嗎？癱瘓方式之一啦！所以為什麼今天國民黨必須在上面護住議事尊嚴、護住議事程序。因為民進黨所有的……這個可能民進黨不要再否認了，你們全部在攻主席台。所以第一個情況，民進黨口口喊說你們全部下來按計票器表決，那我就要問第二個問題，秘書長，這個計票器的計票卡，每個委員配的那張計票卡被拔走以後，請問如何行使計票？"],["周秘書長萬來：就沒辦法行使計票。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！今天如果舉手表決有像民進黨說的這麼萬惡不赦，就是你民進黨造成的啦！我們在台下按計票器，你就衝上去主席台癱瘓議事，我們在台上守護議事，你就在台下偷偷拔計票卡。","不要否認，有影片。還在講舉手投票，你有臉講舉手投票，舉手投票就是你民進黨弄出來的，就這麼簡單。","我想要再請教一下我們的秘書長，舉手投票是不是議事規則裡面的投票方式？"],["周秘書長萬來：是第三十五條規定的。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！就是議事規則裡面的投票方式。民進黨你要講說多少年前，我管你多少年前，它就是議事規則裡面的投票方式，沒錯吧！"],["周秘書長萬來：規定是這樣。"],["羅委員智強：委員會也是舉手投票，不是嗎？英國的國會也舉手投票，不是嗎？舉手投票就是因為在當場的議場上民進黨的蠻橫，你逼的，今天我們的議事進行必須採取合乎規定的舉手投票。我接下來想要請教我們的秘書長，我知道鍾召委一直在講所謂的可否依次來表決嘛，對不對？那想請教秘書長，一定要用這種方式嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：如果從議學上跟我們立法院議事規則第三十六條的規定，表決是兩面俱呈啦！如果從實務上，全面改選以後到第4屆都還有用舉手表決的實例存在。"],["羅委員智強：我剛剛講的是「可否」這個問題，他是說贊成要舉一次，反對要舉一次。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為從實例裡面都是正面表決，沒有在做反表決的。"],["羅委員智強：正面表決。我也呼應秘書長，什麼叫正面表決？當場如果明顯我們在做贊成投票的時候，贊成過半數，即為可決，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們現在實務上就只有用單面的正面表決。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，單面正面表決，只要過半數就是可決嘛，對不對？單面正面表決，如果是今天反對過半就是否決嘛，所以也沒有鍾佳濱講的那個問題。當天所有的投票，如果說今天民進黨數學不好，我幫大家算啦！請問秘書長，國民黨這次立法院幾席？"],["周秘書長萬來：用黨團來算是54席。"],["羅委員智強：54席嘛。民眾黨幾席？"],["周秘書長萬來：民眾黨8席。"],["羅委員智強：8席嘛。然後那個民進黨幾席？"],["周秘書長萬來：現在是51席。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！各位，你們直接去看在現場國民黨跟民眾黨，尤其國民黨幾乎是全員到，除了正副院長，因為身分的某些過去的原因，原則上除非特別的狀況參與投票，否則就是52席在那個地方啊，加上民眾黨的8席，請問有沒有過半？秘書長，有沒有過半？"],["周秘書長萬來：有過半。"],["羅委員智強：就過半了嘛！所以民進黨，到現在為止，透過各種方式來去扭曲。我再問一下秘書長，請問你們在協商的時候有沒有談到，希望大家不要攻占主席台，我們就在底下投票，有沒有？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為它這不是公開的，所以我未便在這邊說明。"],["羅委員智強：好。那我在這邊鄭重呼籲，真的啊，我覺得下次協商很簡單啦，請所有三黨的立委、黨團三長直接簽切結書，民進黨這麼愛用計票器投票，保證兩件事情，計票器投票就會發生，只要民進黨不占主席台癱瘓議事，保證一，不要講民進黨，所有黨不占主席台癱瘓議事，保證一；以及所有黨不去拔人家……這麼沒水準拔人家的計票卡，保證二。秘書長，我想請問，這兩個保證都落實了，大家有沒有辦法就坐在椅子上，好好的按計票器啊？"],["周秘書長萬來：在實務上是一定會這樣處理。"],["羅委員智強：就可以了嘛！所以民進黨，你這麼心心念念不要舉手投票，你就簽保證書嘛，我來跟國民黨反映，我們就簽這兩點保證書，三黨都簽，明天的投票全部都坐在底下好好的表決，不要偷拔表決卡啊！丟人現眼，偷拔表決卡是不對的行為，就像說今天我們進到議場，大家在那邊好好排隊，不要插隊嘛，國民禮節不插隊，民進黨也做不到啊！國民黨排隊排多少小時，秘書長知道嗎？第一天的那個開會。"],["周秘書長萬來：我看電視上是很長時間。"],["羅委員智強：48小時啊，我在那邊睡兩個晚上啦，我是睡兩個晚上啦，我今天晚上還要再去睡，我們願意嗎？排隊精神啊！民進黨又懶惰，你早點去排隊不就好了，為什麼不早點去排隊？到現場去插隊，懶惰、插隊，然後為了要搶進議場打警察、打記者、打立委，打議事人員、打周萬來啦！厲害啦！還說別人暴力黨，還好意思說別人暴力黨！我再來問秘書長警察權，請問一下秘書長，當天有行使警察權嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有，因為韓院長一開始，他就宣告不動用警察權了。"],["羅委員智強：可是民進黨一直咬著你用警察權啊！奇怪了，為什麼民進黨一直咬著你用警察權？秘書長，你又覺得沒有用警察權。為什麼？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為警察權的概念，長期院裡面在研究的時候，警察權的這個概念是在會場裡面。"],["羅委員智強：我幫秘書長歸納一下，警察權的概念是在那個會場裡面，對不對？當議事進行程序受到干擾的時候，如果今天立法院院長要排除這些干擾，在那個會場裡面叫做警察權，是不是這個概念？"],["周秘書長萬來：我的看法是這樣，因為莊委員跟我的看法不太相同。"],["羅委員智強：那我跟各位講，議場以外就是院長的人身安全維護，是不是？"],["周秘書長萬來：就整個院區的……"],["羅委員智強：對，那我想請問，第一天民進黨在那邊有沒有威脅到院長的人身安全？在門後面，沒有進到會場喔！門後面喔！鏡頭很清楚吧！又拉又扯又拔，成何體統！像樣嗎？那韓院長的安全不重要嗎？秘書長，韓院長的安全重不重要？"],["周秘書長萬來：我在事後才瞭解。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！很重要啊！所以如果確保今天韓院長能夠好好地、有尊嚴地、不受傷害地、不受威脅地走進會場，這叫做國會警察權的使用嗎？走進會場而已，不是在會場裡面喔！"],["周秘書長萬來：警察是不能進去會場的。"],["羅委員智強：對，所以在會場以外，那今天就是院長的人身安全維護，不是嗎？我想請問，如果今天院長要進到立法院，外面有民眾打他、攻擊他、攔阻他，不讓他進來，請問警察要不要保護他？當然要！這個就沒身分區別，不管那個民眾是民進黨立委還是一般民眾，只要今天攔阻了韓院長進到立法院裡面，請問警察要不要保護他？要保護他嘛！這叫做國會警察權的使用嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：這不是國會警察權。"],["羅委員智強：當然！法律常識。","召委，剛剛莊瑞雄委員講很多，我要繼續一下，稍微再借一點時間。","我再請問秘書長，民進黨一直在講清點人數，可是我看到以前蘇嘉全院長清點人數的方式蠻好的，為什麼今天我們清點人數的方式民進黨不滿意呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不太瞭解，不過有例在前……"],["羅委員智強：原來是誰的例子？"],["周秘書長萬來：剛剛我看公報是蘇院長的時候。"],["羅委員智強：對，就是蘇嘉全留下這麼好的議事範例，民進黨這麼討厭蘇嘉全嗎？不需要一直打臉蘇嘉全啦！真的拜託！就像我們那天提了所謂不再提散會動議的動議，這個創始人是國民黨嗎？是柯建銘，對不對？當時的立法院長是民進黨的，對不對？所以民進黨真的不要一直在那邊用迴力鏢打自己！","最後我要問秘書長，你那麼多年間……警政署代表也可以上來。","主席，最後一題，警政署的代表上來一下。","我想請問，臺灣民主有史以來，由執政黨發起全臺街頭運動對抗國會，以前發生過嗎？執政黨、當家政府發起全臺街頭運動來對抗國會。","秘書長，他現在還要研究一下，你記得曾有哪個執政黨發起全臺街頭運動，號稱要對抗國會，你有沒有聽過？"],["主席：請周秘書長回答。"],["周秘書長萬來：臺灣沒看到。"],["羅委員智強：沒看到。副署長，看過沒有？"],["李副署長西河：印象中沒有。"],["羅委員智強：答對了，就是沒有！當家鬧事，可惡至極，就是民進黨啊！那我再問問看，在全世界，我不知道，我的世界觀不好，有沒有發生過今天執政黨……"],["主席：羅委員，已經多給你時間了。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我告訴你，我再借一下柯總召的星海羅盤的時間。我要跟大家講，我再問最後一題，問一個問題就結束了，沒關係。","我要問秘書長，全世界有執政黨號召街頭運動來攻擊國會、對抗國會，說要藐視國會……我要藐視國會，號召全臺街頭運動，你見過嗎？哪個民主國家曾有這樣的作法？"],["周秘書長萬來：我比較粗淺，不過我只知道美國行政部門跟國會之間曾經發生過一場……"],["羅委員智強：但那個是抗議執政黨，抗議執政黨的活動比比皆是，抗議在野黨我真的是沒見過！歷史第一次，全世界都在看，偉哉民進黨！當家鬧事，想要癱瘓國會！以上。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝周秘書長。接下來請林委員思銘發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 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天我們必須要採取舉手投票為什麼因為有一個因素產生阿所以不得不採用舉手投票您好很中立我不為難你"},{"start":60.151,"end":69.119,"text":"但我來講講因素是什麼當天是不是發生民進黨立委拔掉國民黨的這個計票卡有沒有我講欸抱歉影片都有中超委影片都有很清楚影片都有我想請問秘書長啊"},{"start":83.444,"end":91.328,"text":"今天民進黨說要把人從主席台拉下來一直攻上去主席台被佔了以後有辦法表決嗎?有辦法表決嗎?我說如果民進黨把主席站下來主席台站下來把麥克風拔掉還有辦法表決嗎?"},{"start":107.951,"end":108.291,"text":"民主黨（"},{"start":138.444,"end":153.893,"text":"這個計票器的這個計票卡每個人委員配的那張計票卡被拔走以後請問如何行使計票啊?對嘛今天如果舉手表決有像民進黨說這麼萬惡不赦就是你民進黨造成的啦我們在台下的計票器你就上去抽主席才癱瘓意思"},{"start":165.563,"end":170.525,"text":"我們在台上守護議事。你就在台上偷拔計票器。不要否認有影片。還在講舉手投票。你有臉講舉手投票。舉手投票就是民進黨弄出來的。就這麼簡單。我再想要請教一下我們的秘書長。舉手投票是不是議事規則裡面的投票方式?對啊!"},{"start":193.123,"end":214.509,"text":"就是議事規則裡面的投票方式啊那民進黨你要講說多少年前我管你多少年前他就是議事規則裡面的投票方式沒錯吧委員會是舉手投票啊不是嗎英國的國會舉手投票嗎不是嗎舉手投票就是因為在當場的議場上民進黨的蠻橫"},{"start":223.257,"end":245.343,"text":"以逼得今天我們的議事進行必須採取合乎規定的舉手投票。我接下來再要請教我們的秘書長。我知道中朝我一直在講所謂的這個可否依次來那個表決嘛。對不對?那想請教秘書長。一定要用這種方式嗎?"},{"start":250.674,"end":253.215,"text":"我剛講的是說可否的這個問題。他是說贊成要舉一次反對要舉一次啊。"},{"start":274.232,"end":294.124,"text":"因為我們從實例裡面都是正面表決的。正面表決嗎?沒有用在做環表決的。我也呼籲秘書長,什麼叫正面表決?當場如果明顯我們在做贊成投票的時候,贊成數過半數就極為可決嘛,對不對?對啊,單面正面表決,只要過半數就是可決嘛。"},{"start":303.908,"end":304.689,"text":"五﹗五﹗五﹗五﹗"},{"start":326.021,"end":352.932,"text":"五十四席嘛。啊民眾黨幾席?八席嘛。然後那個民進黨幾席?五十一席。對啊。各位你們直接去看在現場國民黨跟民眾黨尤其國民黨幾乎是全員到除了正副院長因為身份的某些過去的原因原則上除非特別狀況參與投票否則就是五十二席在那個地方啊"},{"start":353.908,"end":357.93,"text":"加上民眾黨八席請問有沒有過半?議長有沒有過半?就過半了嘛所以民進黨到現在為止透過各種方式來去這邊扭曲我再問一下秘書長請問你們在協商的時候有沒有談到希望大家就是不要這個公站主席台我們就在底下去投票有沒有"},{"start":384.864,"end":389.786,"text":"因為他這不是公開的,所以我未必在這邊說明。好,那我在這邊震動呼籲啊。真的啊,我覺得下次協商很簡單啊。請所有的三黨的立委,黨團三長,直接簽切結書。這麼明顯這麼愛計票機投票,保證兩件事情計票機投票就會發生。"},{"start":409.164,"end":438.328,"text":"只要民進黨不占主席台癱瘓意識保證一不要講民進黨所有黨不占主席台癱瘓意識保證一以及所有黨不去拔人家這麼沒水準拔人家的計票卡保證二秘書長我想請問這兩個保證都落實大家有沒有辦法就坐在椅子上好好的按計票器了在書上是一定會這樣處理就可以了嘛所以民進黨你這麼心心念念不要舉手投票"},{"start":440.285,"end":467.654,"text":"你就簽保證書嘛我來跟國民黨反映我們就簽這兩點保證書三黨都簽明天的投票全部都做在幾項好好的表決不要偷把表決卡丟人現眼偷把表決卡是不對的行為就像說今天我們進到議場大家在那邊好好排隊不要插隊嘛國民禮節不插隊民進黨也做不到啊"},{"start":468.886,"end":479.372,"text":"國民黨排隊排多少小時?你不想知道嗎?第一天的那個開會。48小時啊。我在那邊睡兩個晚上啊。我是睡兩個晚上啊。我今天晚上還要再去睡。我們願意嗎?排隊精神啊!民進黨又懶惰!你早點去排隊不就好了?為什麼不早點排隊?到現場去插隊?"},{"start":498.724,"end":506.33,"text":"懶惰、插隊來為了要搶金一場打警察、打記者、打立委、打醫師、打草案來阿厲害啦還說別人暴力黨阿還好意思說別人暴力黨我再來問秘書長警察權阿請問一下秘書長當天有行使警察權嗎沒有因為韓院長一開始他就宣告不動用警察權"},{"start":526.772,"end":527.853,"text":"五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（"},{"start":548.137,"end":573.545,"text":"警察權的概念是在那個會場裡面嘛對不對當議事進行程序受到干擾的時候如果今天立法院院長要排除這些干擾在這個會場裡面叫做警察權嘛是不是這個概念我的看法是這樣因為中委員跟我看法不太相同那我跟各位講議場以外就是院長的人身安全維護是不是就整個一個院區的一個"},{"start":578.001,"end":590.948,"text":"那我想請問第一天民進黨在那邊有沒有威脅到院長的人身安全在門後面沒有進到會場喔門後面喔鏡頭很清楚吧又拉又扯又拔成何體統像樣子嗎但韓院長的安全不重要嗎民主黨韓院長安全重不重要對啊很重要啊"},{"start":602.839,"end":630.952,"text":"所以今天如果說確保今天韓院長能夠好好的有尊嚴的不受傷害的不受威脅的走進會場這叫做國會警察權的使用嗎走進會場而已喔不是在會場裡面喔會場一定警察是不能進去會場對嘛所以在會場以外那就是今天院長的人身安全維護啊不是嗎"},{"start":632.685,"end":657.541,"text":"羅智強請問今天院長如果說今天要進到立法院外面有民眾打他攻擊他攔阻他不讓他進來請問警察要不要保護他當然要嘛這個就沒身份區別了我不管那個民眾是叫做民進黨立委還是叫做一般民眾只要今天去攔阻了韓院長進到立法院裡面請問警察要不要保護他"},{"start":659.263,"end":662.346,"text":"要保護他嘛那這叫做國會警察權的使用嗎當然嘛法律常識啦稍微剛剛我們莊瑞雄講很多我要繼續一下稍微再借一點時間我再來請問一下秘書長民進黨一直在講清點人數"},{"start":682.577,"end":701.702,"text":"可是我看到以前蘇嘉賢院長青年人說的方式蠻好的啊。為什麼今天我們青年人說的方式民進黨不滿意呢?為什麼?不太了解,不過有利在前。所以我們原的是誰的利?剛剛公報有宣告是因為蘇院長的事。對嘛!"},{"start":703.174,"end":730.416,"text":"就蘇嘉全留下這麼好的歷史範例啊民進黨這麼討厭蘇嘉全嗎?不需要一直打臉蘇嘉全啦真的拜託就像說今天我們那天提了所謂的不再提散會動議的動議這個創始人是國民黨嗎?是柯建民嘛對不對?當時的立法院長是民進黨的嘛對不對?所以民進黨啊真的不要一直在那邊回籬標打自己啦"},{"start":731.601,"end":739.466,"text":"最後我要問一下秘書長你那麼多年間警政署那個代表可以上來一下最後一題主席最後一題警政署代表上來一下我想請問台灣民主有史以來由執政黨發起全台街頭運動對抗國會以前發生過嗎"},{"start":759.031,"end":764.956,"text":"律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。律政黨當家政府發起全台街頭運動來對抗國會。"},{"start":787.241,"end":810.28,"text":"答對就是沒有啦當家鬧事可惡自己就是民進黨阿那我再問問看阿全世界我不知道啦我的世界觀不好啦有沒有發聲過說今天執政黨沒關係我告訴你我再借一下我們柯總召的星海羅盤時間阿我要跟大家講我再最後一題問一個問題結束來沒關係我問完來我要問秘書長阿全世界"},{"start":815.56,"end":824.627,"text":"有執政黨號召街頭運動來攻擊國會對抗國會來說要藐視國會喔他主要是我要藐視國會號召全台街頭運動你見過嗎哪個民主國家有這樣做法過"},{"start":831.639,"end":854.445,"text":"我比較粗淺不過我只知道美國那個刑事部門跟那個國會之間曾經發生過但是那個是 抗議 抗議執政黨啊 抗議執政黨活動比比皆是啊 抗議在野黨我真的是沒見過啦歷史第一次 全世界都在看 偽詐民進黨 當家鬧事 想要癱瘓國會以上好 謝謝羅委員 謝謝鍾秘書長接下來請"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}