{"error":false,"id":["152890"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152890,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152890","日期":"2024-05-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-23T10:28:51+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-23T10:37:13+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:22","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4539f72d11f73b66387f1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e8339ae6d9bb1068f4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:28:51 - 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Eats……"],["邱委員志偉：對啦！就是這兩家啦！"],["李主任委員鎂：我的瞭解，在國外我是沒有看到。"],["邱委員志偉：臺灣是第一件？全球第一件，是嗎？你要掌握狀況啊！主委，其他國家是不是有相關的例子？其他國家怎麼處理？"],["林處長慶堂：其他國家沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：沒有嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：就是這兩家的結合，我們沒有看到這個案例。"],["邱委員志偉：這兩家的結合只有在臺灣出現，其他國家都還沒出現？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前看到的是這樣。"],["邱委員志偉：這個就非常重要！我想問一下，過去全聯購併大潤發，你們是有條件通過，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：有七大負擔，這個未來如果結合之後，它可能由寡占變成獨占，這部分非常嚴重，一旦沒有競爭對手，就會把市場競爭弱化，不管是對合作的餐廳、對消費者、對外送員，相對都是不利的！所以要怎麼樣合併，才能達到防止限制競爭的目的，你們有沒有相關的作法？總不能說只提出四項審查原則，而是要如何讓它們進行合併，有哪些負擔或哪些條件能夠達到防止限制競爭的目的？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員報告，這個結合案，第一個，兩大業者結合導致整個市場結構改變，我們一定會嚴格審查、嚴格把關。"],["邱委員志偉：對。"],["李主任委員鎂：至於審查的結果准或不准，假設是不准，那就沒有附條件或附負擔的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：你們的審查……"],["李主任委員鎂：假設准了再談要賦予什麼樣的負擔。"],["邱委員志偉：你們審查的標準在哪裡？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們有一個審查的原則，最主要是這幾個面向，包括……"],["邱委員志偉：集中度、訂價能力……"],["李主任委員鎂：集中度，以後的抬價能力等等。"],["邱委員志偉：聯合行為協同效果、市場效益。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這個太抽象。"],["李主任委員鎂：我簡單說，第一個，會不會因為併購以後，併購方抬高價格的能力提高，會不會……"],["邱委員志偉：訂價能力到什麼程度、協同效果（聯合行為）到怎麼樣的效果、集中度達到什麼樣的情況、效益達到哪一個水平才能做，你要很明確的量化。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，包括外送員、餐廳、消費者的議價能力是不是受到影響，還有潛在的競爭者能不能容易地進入市場，這個是從很多面向來考量。"],["邱委員志偉：對，你先把這個標準定義清楚之後才能作為審查的依據，我看你們的四項標準、四個面向太抽象，到時候你們委員會討論，經過委員會討論之後再做……時間大概要多久？"],["李主任委員鎂：申請人的文件齊備以後，我們開始受理，審查期間是30天，必要的時候可以再增加60天，就是最長30天加60天。"],["邱委員志偉：30天你們就要做出決定？"],["李主任委員鎂：30天要做出決定，必要的時候可以延長60天。"],["邱委員志偉：已經立案了沒？"],["李主任委員鎂：5月14號申請，現在在審查這些文件。"],["邱委員志偉：5月14號立案，照理說30……"],["李主任委員鎂：它5月14號提出申請。"],["邱委員志偉：什麼時候立案？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們等它文件齊備以後就開始受理這個案件。"],["邱委員志偉：所以現在還沒有立案？"],["李主任委員鎂：應該是說受理申請了……"],["邱委員志偉：不是。"],["李主任委員鎂：等到文件齊備才受理申請。"],["邱委員志偉：法令規定受理立案後30個工作天要做出決定，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，受理申請。"],["邱委員志偉：這個期間開始了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：文件還沒有齊備的話，還沒有開始算。"],["邱委員志偉：所以還沒開始算？"],["李主任委員鎂：對，還沒開始算。"],["邱委員志偉：30天之內還可以再延長一次60個工作天？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：如果你在最長60天之內沒有做出決定，它就可以逕行結合，沒有錯嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["邱委員志偉：只要文件齊備，你60天之內……會不會有時間壓力？"],["李主任委員鎂：90天。"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有時間壓力？你要辦公聽會，你要蒐集很多資料，時間壓力會很大呢！"],["李主任委員鎂：我們時間相當緊湊，也會很謹慎處理這個案件。"],["邱委員志偉：兩個月你要針對那麼大的結合案做出決定，時間壓力很大，我希望你們方方面面都要考量，讓社會能夠接受你們的決定。"],["李主任委員鎂：雖然時間短，但是我們還是會很嚴格、很審慎地處理這個案件。"],["邱委員志偉：有可能60天之後再延長嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：30天之後……"],["邱委員志偉：不是，還可以延長一次我知道了。"],["李主任委員鎂：可以延60天，不能再延了。"],["邱委員志偉：60天你還是沒有……"],["李主任委員鎂：不能再延了。"],["邱委員志偉：所以一定要做出決定？"],["李主任委員鎂：對，除非對方同意，否則不能再延。"],["邱委員志偉：我是覺得這樣子，未來比較治本的方式，整個外送應該比照歐盟的經驗制定專法，把數位科技控制納入從屬性審查。整個平台業者相關的這些權益，你應該按照歐盟的經驗制定專法，你看怎麼樣？主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：要不要訂定專法還有譬如主管機關等等，這個都要多面向去考量。"],["邱委員志偉：我是覺得這樣子，沒有明確的法規跟主管機關的規範……外送平台深入每一個家庭，幾乎生活都會用到外送平台，對不對？包括你我都會使用外送平台，但是一直沒有一個主管機關，主委，現在主管機關到底是誰？"],["李主任委員鎂：要看目的事業主管機關，其實整個外送平台牽涉的面向很多，包括勞動……"],["邱委員志偉：這個行業總要有一個主管機關，這個主管機關到底是誰？連你們都搞不清楚，你要怎麼規範？你要怎麼做相關的審查？"],["李主任委員鎂：公平會處理的是競爭秩序的影響，針對這個結合案或者是任何事業的行為……"],["邱委員志偉：我是覺得這樣子，雖然你們是針對結合案審查，但是未來不管是哪一個部會，要有一個部會去做主管機關，整合其他單位，利用這個機會把外送平台相關的問題、勞動型態、受僱者權益一併討論，包括勞動部、經濟部。到現在我還很納悶那麼大的市場竟然沒有一個主管機關，主委要補充什麼？你要補充？"],["李主任委員鎂：謝謝委員，這個案子其實大家都非常矚目，就競爭的影響，我們一定會很審慎來處理。"],["邱委員志偉：我是怕你們時間壓力太大，做出不完美的判斷。"],["李主任委員鎂：不會。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望你們好好把握這兩個月的時間，還是你一個月就做得出來？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要看案情、當事人補正的程度，還有資料的內容。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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Panda跟烏克力對啦就是這兩家啦我的瞭解在國外我是沒有看到台灣是第一件全球第一件是嗎你要掌握狀況 主委"},{"start":74.11,"end":101.962,"text":"其他國家是不是有相關的例子那其他國家怎麼處理沒有嗎?就是這兩家的結合我們沒有看到這個案例這兩家的結合只有在台灣出現其他國家還沒有出現目前看到的是這樣所以這個你就非常重要我想問一下這個過去前年過病大論法你們是有條件通過對不對?是那有七大負擔"},{"start":103.479,"end":132.081,"text":"那你這個未來如果結合之後他可能有寡戰變成獨佔這部分非常嚴重那你沒有競爭對手他就會把這個市場競爭把它弱化不然對合作餐廳對消費者對外送員都是相對是不利所以你要怎麼樣合併才能達到防止限制競爭的目的"},{"start":133.103,"end":143.653,"text":"你們有沒有相關的做法?你們怎麼不能說你提出這個四項審查原則但是你要如何進行讓他們進行合併你說哪些負擔或哪些條件"},{"start":145.97,"end":169.719,"text":"能夠達到防止限制競爭的目的?跟委員報告,就是說這個結合案,第一個,兩大結合,整個市場結構改變,我們一定會嚴格審查,要嚴格把關。那至於這個審查的結果準或不準,假設是不準,那就沒有負條件或負負擔的問題。假設準了,在談要賦予什麼樣的負擔。那你那個審查的標準在哪裡?"},{"start":170.854,"end":189.519,"text":"我們的審查原則最主要是這幾個面向包括說集中度、低價能力、聯合協會協同效果、市場效益這個太抽象了我簡單說啦就是說第一個會不會因為併購以後併購方那個抬高價格的能力提高"},{"start":191.82,"end":192.3,"text":"二）本院委員"},{"start":215.751,"end":237.228,"text":"能不能容易的進入這個市場這個是很多面向來考量對啦所以你先把這個標準定義清楚之後你才能做一個審查的依據嘛那我看你是四項標準四項的面向市場太抽象所以到時候就是你們委員會再討論然後經過委員會討論之後再做大概時間大概要多久"},{"start":237.987,"end":264.692,"text":"我們如果這個申請人的文件齊備以後我們開始受理、審查期間是30天必要的時候可以再增加60天也就是30天加60天最長30天之前你要做出決定?30天要做出決定必要的時候可以延長60天已經立案了沒?5月14號申請現在在審查這些文件所以5月14號立案那你照理說申請他5月14號提出申請"},{"start":265.692,"end":272.776,"text":"那什麼時候立案?我們就是要等他文件齊備以後,我們就開始授予這個文件。我現在還是沒有立案?應該是說授予申請的。"},{"start":277.759,"end":305.897,"text":"等到文件齊備才受理申請。你把這規定是說受理立案或三十工作天你要做出決定嘛對不對?受理申請是。受理申請那你這開始了沒?這期間開始了沒?文件還沒有齊備的話還沒有開始算。所以還沒開始算?對還沒開始算。那三十天之內還可以再延長一次六十工作天?是。你如果在六十天之內最少你沒有做出決定對不對?他就可以進行結合嗎?是的。沒有錯吧?是。所以你六十天之內只要文件齊備你六十天之內"},{"start":307.165,"end":335.26,"text":"會不會有時間壓力?有沒有時間壓力?你要辦公廳會,你要收集很多資料。時間壓力...這個我們時間是相當緊湊,所以也會很審慎處理這個案件。所以,兩個月,你要針對那麼大的一個結合案,你要做出決定。時間壓力很大,我希望你們那個,要方方面面都要考量,你要讓社會能夠接受你們的決定。雖然時間短,我們還是會很嚴格的、很審慎的處理這個案件。"},{"start":335.799,"end":335.919,"text":"邱志偉"},{"start":356.991,"end":382.023,"text":"比較這個製本的方式你這個整個外送的這個應該比照這個歐盟經驗來制定這個專法然後這個把數位科技控制納入從屬性的審查所以這個整個平台業者相關的這些權益你要應該按照歐盟經驗制定一個專法"},{"start":384.656,"end":413.317,"text":"你覺得怎麼樣?主委我想要不要訂專法還有譬如說主管機關等等這個都要多面向去考量所以我是覺得這樣子沒有明確的法規跟主管機關的規範我是覺得這個外送平台市場是深入每一個家庭幾乎每一個生活都會用到這個外送平台對不對包括你我都會使用這個外送平台所以一直沒有一個主管機關沒有一個這主管機關到底是誰?"},{"start":416.004,"end":435.218,"text":"主委要看目的事業主管機關其實就是說整個外送平台牽涉的面向很多包括同樣的行業主要有一個主管機關啊那這個主管到底是誰連你們搞不清楚那你要怎麼去做規範你要怎麼去做在公平會我們處理的是這個競爭秩序的影響所以"},{"start":444.789,"end":472.699,"text":"針對這個結合案或者是任何事業的行為。我是覺得這樣子啊。雖然你們是針對結合案做審查,但是未來不管是哪一個部會,你要有一個部會去做主管機關,然後整合其他單位。然後利用這個機會啊,正把外送平台總統相關的問題,勞動型態啦、受僱者權益一併討論,包括勞動部啦,包括經濟部啦。所以到現在我很納悶這個那麼大的市場竟然沒有一個主管機關。主管你要補充說?"},{"start":474.77,"end":475.03,"text":"您要補充?"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}