{"error":false,"id":["152895"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152895,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152895","日期":"2024-05-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-23T10:37:17+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-23T10:46:48+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:31","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453d76050ec91cd2539f1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e83e2e11a24dcffeb0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:37:17 - 10:46:48","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時37分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委早。針對今天本席的提案，我在提案說明的時候說明得非常清楚，也就是，科技發展日新月異，生活型態也一直在改變，全球也大力推動環保、減碳等各項措施，全世界大家都一起在追求永續發展，從公務機關一直到民間企業都已經以電子文件取代書面、紙本，現在甚至有很多人在開會的時候不提供紙本，連社團有很多都與時俱進地推動永續發展。多層次傳銷管理法第十三條第二項，本席將那個「不」刪除，希望能夠跟世界接軌。我剛剛也特別聽到主委在報告當中談到，你也非常贊成第十三條的修正。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以待會兒主席在處理的時候能夠完成，我真的非常高興，得到行政部門的支持，尤其藍綠白的同仁也都支持，我們希望能夠跟世界接軌。依本席的提案，將多層次傳銷管理法第十三條原先規定的「不」刪除，推動以電子形式締約，更能夠讓我們符合無紙化的環保趨勢，三讀通過之後，敬請行政部門執行。謝謝！你點頭讓我信心十足。","接下來我們要討論外送平台，因為大家非常關心，據媒體報導，這兩家合併的金額是307億，是嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：三百多億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這兩家目前是最大家，如果合併之後等於是壟斷市場，應該百分之九十幾了吧？會不會？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要再進一步精算它的市占率，但是是很高……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：很高。本席要請教，5月15號副主委也對外表示，這個案子送來之後，公平會要評估市場集中度、結合後併購方的訂價能力、合併案的協同效果。合併案的協同效果有一個重點叫做「聯合行為」，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：聯合行為，重點在這裡，還有市場的效益，以這四大原則審查。照您剛才說的，它的成分是目前國內兩大家，占比非常高，幾乎cover全部，同時聯合行為的情況是你們開會考量四大項目下非常重要的一點。本席要請教，從公平會創會以來，只有幾個併購的案子被你們禁止結合，主委，你知道嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：譬如說錢櫃跟好樂迪……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你知道有幾家嗎？因為這個案子很特殊……"],["李主任委員鎂：有10家。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：10家？"],["李主任委員鎂：就是10個結合案，有10個案件被我們禁止。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是他們要併的時候被你們禁止。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，我們禁止。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以有這個例子，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有這個例子，公平會自己也都承認，如果併起來它是什麼呢？是獨占市場的合併案，我可以這麼解讀嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：應該是說，如果我們評估的結果，整個經濟利益跟限制競爭的不利益相比，經濟利益沒有比較大，那麼這個我們就會禁止。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席再一次強調、再一次請問，公平會你們自己都承認，它是一個獨占市場的合併案，這個解讀正確吧？獨占市場的合併案。"],["李主任委員鎂：併購之後、結合之後，有可能變成一個獨占市場，獨占是一個事實……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：獨占是一個事實，併購後……"],["李主任委員鎂：我們對於獨占事業後續會有什麼行為，這個是另外在法律上有規定的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以獨占是一個事實，如果在併購後，當然獨占市場的合併案，這個解讀應該是會成立。接下來我們再討論，公平會你有沒有牙齒啊，你這隻老虎有沒有牙齒啊？你會不會做一個沒有牙齒的老虎，會不會如此？"],["李主任委員鎂：不會，國家賦予我們執法的權力，我們一定會依法執行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我很高興聽到這一句話，國家賦予你這個職責，獨立機關、單位，你要做一個有牙齒的老虎，以民、以經濟為基準，以我們整個經濟的秩序為安全考量，因為光是外送人員，他們的權利要怎麼做，也是你們非常重要的考量之一，對不對？是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：外送員、餐廳以及這些消費者都是我們考量的因素。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都是考量嘛？我也歡喜聽到整個必要的條件都納入在你們未來審議當中，我們也希望讓外送平台的外送人員都能夠有他們應當有的權益，整個消費市場的秩序能夠安全、能夠穩定，這是本席代表民意所做的要求。最後一個議題，本席要請教，公平會在112年2月份修正了公平交易委員會對於網路廣告案件之處理原則，將網紅這些社群網站用戶明確地納入這個規範，如果有廣告不實的時候，會被處以5萬到2,500萬的罰鍰，對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請教主委，因為現在隨便IG、短影音、長篇圖文、平臺直播都非常的多，大家為了業績一直吹捧、一直吹捧，不實的內容我們不斷看到。所以本席要請教，到目前為止，你們罰了幾個案子？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們對於網路上的不實廣告有相當多處罰的案例。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對於網紅不實的廣告，你們罰了幾個案子？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果網紅本身是一個廣告族，他也受我們第二十一條不實廣告的規範。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，當然。"],["李主任委員鎂：目前我們對於……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以依照這一條，你們罰了幾個案子？"],["李主任委員鎂：就是網紅本身又是廣告族，被我們處罰的案例，目前沒有這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前怎樣？"],["李主任委員鎂：目前沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前沒有嘛！但是社會上的民眾告訴我，他們很害怕，他點下去、看了，到底真的假的？民眾有這個疑慮。我們設立了這個法，到目前為止，沒有半件的處分，但是主委，社會上的民眾已經有這樣疑慮，所以本席要請教，你們的「公平交易委員會對於網路廣告案件之處理原則」，到現在是零、沒有！我也希望他沒有不實廣告，但是不太可能，因為目前民眾都很疑慮，這樣的情況之下，你們要怎麼樣去調整你的腳步、去遏止這些不實的廣告，讓民眾安心，怎麼辦？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們針對網路上的廣告，我們有監控，如果有疑慮是不實廣告，我們會主動去查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我再給主委民眾的心聲，目前大家的疑慮，但是現在依據法律，到目前為止，你的處分是零，你又有監控，代表著什麼？代表你認為沒有不實廣告嘛！但是跟民眾的落差這麼大、跟民意的落差這麼大，所以本席具體建議，請你好好地再去審視你們的監控方式以及社會的面向，要怎麼樣讓民眾安心，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：把你調整腳步的書面資料給本席，OK嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔召委。","接下來我們請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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"},{"start":184.825,"end":204.998,"text":"結合後併購方的定價能力和併案協同效果和併案的協同效果有一個重點叫做聯合行為是不是聯合行為重點在這裡那市場的效應市場的效益這四大原則你們來做審查"},{"start":205.598,"end":229.883,"text":"按照您剛才說的他的成分是目前國內兩大家那占比是非常高幾乎全部那同時在這個聯合行為的這個情況也是在你們四大開會考量的向下非常重要的一點所以本期要請教從我們公平會創會以來"},{"start":232.972,"end":233.332,"text":"二）本院委員楊瓔"},{"start":253.399,"end":256.603,"text":"十個結合案,有十個案件被我們禁止。"},{"start":268.579,"end":294.407,"text":"如果併起來,它是一個什麼呢?它是一個獨佔市場的合併案。我可以這麼解讀嗎?應該是說,如果我們評估的結果,整個經濟利益跟限制競爭的不利相比,那個經濟利益沒有比較大,那這個我們就會禁止。就本次再次強調,再次請問,公平委員你們自己都承認喔,它是一個獨佔市場的合併案。"},{"start":295.828,"end":296.168,"text":"併購之後．獨佔市場的合併案"},{"start":318.104,"end":333.481,"text":"那如果在併購後那當然這個解讀獨證市場的合併案這個解讀應該是會成立來接下來我們再討論那本席希望公平會你有沒有牙齒啊你這隻老虎有沒有牙齒啊你會不會做一個沒有牙齒的老虎"},{"start":339.625,"end":368.597,"text":"會不會如此?不會,國家賦予我們執法的權利,我們一定會做法執行。我很高興聽到這一句話,國家賦予你這個職責,獨立機關單位你要做一個有牙齒的老虎,以民、以經濟為基準,以我們整個經濟的秩序為安全考量,因為觀光外送人員他們的權益要怎麼做也是你們非常重要的考量之一,對不對?"},{"start":369.798,"end":395.734,"text":"是不是是不是外送員餐廳這些消費者都是我們考量的因素都是考量嗎好我也歡喜聽到整個必要的條件都納入在你們未來審議當中未來審議當中我們也希望能夠讓外送平台的外送人員都能夠有他們應當有的一個權益那整個消費市場的秩序能夠安全"},{"start":396.294,"end":411.42,"text":"能夠穩定這是本席代表民意所做的這個要求最後一個議題本席要請教公平會在112年2月份修正了公平交易委員會對網路廣告案件之處理原則將網紅這些社群網站用戶他明確的納入這個規範如果有廣告不實的時候會必除以5萬"},{"start":422.165,"end":424.667,"text":"二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具:「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案案。．本院委員楊瓊瓔"},{"start":450.663,"end":455.671,"text":"我們對於網路上的不實廣告有相當多的處罰的案例對於網紅不實的這個廣告你們罰了幾個案子"},{"start":461.449,"end":486.329,"text":"網紅如果他本身是一個廣告組那他也受我們21條不實廣告的規範對當然那目前我們所以依照這一條你們罰了幾個案子我們就是網紅本身又是廣告組被我們處罰的案例目前沒有這個目前怎樣目前沒有目前沒有嘛但是社會民眾告訴我欸我很害怕欸我點下去我看了到底真的假的"},{"start":487.403,"end":506.932,"text":"民眾有這個疑慮到目前為止我們設立了這個法到目前為止沒有辦件的處分但是主委社會上的民眾已經有這樣疑慮所以本席要請教你們針對於網路廣告案件處理方法處理原則到現在是零是零沒有"},{"start":507.412,"end":507.572,"text":"二、審查．一）"},{"start":526.711,"end":545.718,"text":"關於網路上的廣告,我們有監控。如果有疑慮是不是廣告,我們會主動去查。所以我再給你民眾的心聲,目前大家很疑慮,但是你現在依據你的法律,目前為止你的處分是零。你的處分是零,你又有監控,代表你認為沒有不實廣告嗎?"},{"start":549.261,"end":549.361,"text":"謝謝楊瓊瓔召委"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}