{"error":false,"id":["152908"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152908,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152908","日期":"2024-05-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-23T11:14:40+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-23T11:23:48+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:08","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4531632c5c5c7566eaaf1f99622ceb699a7d34e896d657c5e83854671cd304e1f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:14:40 - 11:23:48","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查：\n（一）本院委員邱志偉等16人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時14分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請李主委？"],["主席：請李主委。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委好。主委，還是先從關鍵的問題來請教一下，公平交易法事實上有一些名詞的定義，但是這些名詞的定義並沒有一個清楚的分層數字的展現，所以我想要請教主委，就完全競爭跟所謂的寡占市場跟獨占市場這3個要怎麼區分？"],["李主任委員鎂：公平交易法有定義嘛！處於一個沒有競爭的狀態是獨占。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有競爭，所以它占有市場是100%就是獨占？"],["李主任委員鎂：不一定是100%，就是看在市場上處於沒人可以跟它競爭……"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有競爭，那如果對手太弱，對手可能只占5%，它占了95%或者占了90%，這樣算獨占嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果到95%，一般來看應該已經是獨占。"],["蔡委員易餘：95%，那90%算嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們是用50%，用50%來看就很可能是獨占了。"],["蔡委員易餘：超過50%就獨占了？那定義上獨占超過50%就算了喔？那寡占呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：它是幾個面向，這是幾個面向。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒關係，我們先不要管太多面向。"],["李主任委員鎂：最主要就是沒有競爭狀態就是獨占。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們先用直白的競爭的角度來思考、來看這個法條的所謂定義好不好？所以獨占是指，主委意思是說可能在50%以上就是沒有競爭就會變獨占？"],["李主任委員鎂：有可能。"],["蔡委員易餘：有可能，那寡占呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：寡占在公平法對什麼叫做寡占沒有定義，那我就看它市場上有幾家。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，因為沒有定義，所以我就不知道，所以我想要在這個質詢的時候請教主委，到底什麼是寡占？"],["李主任委員鎂：要從每個行業來看，譬如家數，就是一般來講家數不多……"],["蔡委員易餘：哇，我怎麼問這個你們都好緊張喔，這不是公平會最ABC的問題嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：譬如電信事業，我們把它認定是一個寡占市場，所以……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，你們當時對所謂台灣之星跟台灣大哥大的時候……"],["李主任委員鎂：就是在電信事業的結合……"],["蔡委員易餘：你們有認定他們是寡占嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以電信事業就是幾家的龍頭企業，他們可能就變寡占。好，像兩年前也有很精彩的零售市場的併購行為，包括統一吃下家樂福，包括全聯吃下了大潤發，這樣的話，他們在零售市場裡面，他們算是寡占嗎？他們分別吃下了……"],["李主任委員鎂：零售市場……"],["蔡委員易餘：一哥跟二哥分別吃下了一些小老弟，他們把小老弟排除掉了，有可能會變成寡占嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：全聯跟大潤發併，我們當時算它的市占率其實才三十幾，臺灣從事零售行業的業者是相當多……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦！我知道很多嘛，可是……"],["李主任委員鎂：應該還不算到寡占。"],["蔡委員易餘：畢竟它是大哥啊，全聯在零售是……"],["李主任委員鎂：當時算出來是三十幾的市占率。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以三十幾嘛！所以你還認為說他們還不到寡占？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這個定義就不清楚啦！回到了今天大家關心的，所以現在二哥也是要再吃掉一哥，Uber Eats要吃掉foodpanda，以剛剛主委你講的，可能到了50%的市場，它就已經到獨占了，這樣聽起來，你認為在百分之三十幾的時候還不構成寡占，因為你說全聯吃掉大潤發後占百分之三十幾，所以你認為它還是處在一個完全競爭的市場，還沒有到寡占，所以看起來所謂寡占就是在所謂百分之三十幾到五十這個range囉，是嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：不同的產業有不同的情況，其實很難用家數或者是比例，還要看它整個市場競爭的狀況。"],["蔡委員易餘：對啦！可是總是有一些比較直白的認定嘛！因為大家消費者都是這樣去看到底我們生活的環境裡面遇到這個產業，這個產業有沒有處在壟斷或者是寡占的規模，我想大家心裡都有數。主委，以你這樣來看的話，這樣的外送平台，他們到底是兩個加起來會變獨占還是寡占？"],["李主任委員鎂：兩個加起來市占率那麼高，應該可以到獨占的情況。"],["蔡委員易餘：獨占了嘛，兩個加起來就獨占了。既然這樣的話，這兩個，一哥、二哥合併後會變成獨占的市場，那是不是未來所有的交易條件，都是由這一個新的Uber Eats來訂？因為它吃掉了foodpanda，所以它就可以訂所有的交易條件？"],["李主任委員鎂：不排除有這個可能。"],["蔡委員易餘：不排除嘛。"],["李主任委員鎂：因為它現在就有在定價，結合以後它會怎麼定價，這個要再觀察。"],["蔡委員易餘：再請教，因為他們這兩家公司，外送平臺都已經運作有一些年份了，所以過去他們在經營的時候，自然有各自對商家的承諾，或者是他們對於外送員，也有一些福利。他們併購之後，過去的條件是否會依然存在，這個也是大家想要問的一個問題，這個公平會有在觀察嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：兩家公司結合，不管是在公司法或是其他的法律，都會有一些權利義務如何交接的問題，就公平會來講，我們審查的是對競爭秩序的影響，所以這個面向會包括將來的市場集中度、併購方將來抬價的能力，還有交易相對人，我們剛剛提到外送員、餐廳或者是消費者，跟它抗衡的力量……"],["蔡委員易餘：我舉例，過去很多外送員如果是品行，或者是服務態度不佳的，可能Uber Eats跟foodpanda都有各自處罰外送員，比方說禁止僱用，他們可能有怎樣的一個狀況會有一些禁止僱用的情形，或者是有一些商家，他們可能是不合作的，如果併購了之後呢？以前被foodpanda禁止僱用的會回來嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：這也涉及到一些勞動條件。"],["蔡委員易餘：這是他們自己的條件，所以這部分都不在你們的考量範圍？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們會考慮到這一些外送員過去……"],["蔡委員易餘：他們不用把這些狀況跟你們報告嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們在……"],["蔡委員易餘：就是說我們這兩家併購了，我們未來要怎麼運作，這件事情也是要讓你們知道吧？"],["李主任委員鎂：需要瞭解的我們都會去瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：這一項需要瞭解嗎？。"],["李主任委員鎂：將來外送員的部分，我們除了會徵詢利害關係人、外送員的意見，也會跟勞動部跨機關來交換意見。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，你除了徵詢外送員意見，我覺得你最主要的是要先問清楚，過去這兩家所有的權利義務關係，包括跟商家，包括跟外送員，他們的權利關係在併購後會變得怎樣，他們要跟你們講嘛。"],["李主任委員鎂：是，這個我們都會通盤去瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：他們如果沒有跟你們講，你們只說會看他們的比例，只要看他們市場的競爭會不會影響到，這樣聽起來，你只是要看那些，這樣說起來，他們就是獨占啊，像你說的是獨占了，那我覺得我也不用在這裡再多講了，如果它就是獨占，我覺得社會比較不希望像這個跟民生這麼有關的東西，結果後來是獨占市場，我覺得這個社會比較不期待這樣，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是，結合以後如果變成獨占市場，我們在這個評估上一定會很審慎來處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊，像你說的，這就已經是獨占市場了，我覺得這件事情你們要審慎評估，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員，也謝謝李鎂主委。","接下來請陳超明、陳超明、陳超明委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。另外，林岱樺委員、陳冠廷委員、陳超明委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復的部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-13","speakers":["邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","李坤城","羅智強","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","黃捷","蔡易餘","林岱樺","陳冠廷","陳超明"],"page_start":153,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1134901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請公平交易委員會主任委員就「外送平台併購是否涉及限制競爭之調查程序、認定原則及\n對消費者權益影響之配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢；二、審查：(一)本院委員邱志偉等16人擬\n具「多層次傳銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「多層次傳\n銷管理法第十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1134901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.41784375,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.915343750000002,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.15159375,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.978468750000001,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.24346875,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.68159375,"end":22.609718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.33409375,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.869718750000004,"end":45.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.35721875,"end":52.984718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.406593750000006,"end":60.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.73846875,"end":66.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.34534375,"end":67.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.23971875000001,"end":72.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.13409375,"end":69.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.45846875000001,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.96034375,"end":74.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.84596875000001,"end":79.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.59659375000001,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.41846875,"end":89.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.96221875,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.32909375,"end":91.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.18534375,"end":97.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.18034375,"end":98.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.42471875000001,"end":103.69409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.71534375,"end":106.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.65159375,"end":109.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.03534375000001,"end":109.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.19534375,"end":109.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.68471875,"end":123.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.71846875000001,"end":110.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.62346875,"end":125.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.19284375000001,"end":125.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.69909375,"end":127.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.12034375000002,"end":131.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.97659375,"end":137.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.70596875,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.16846875000002,"end":148.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.06659375,"end":153.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.96096875,"end":151.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.73721875,"end":153.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.27284375000002,"end":158.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.39096875,"end":155.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.30159375000002,"end":160.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.42784375000002,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.62534375,"end":168.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.83659375000002,"end":196.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.62471875,"end":198.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.97034375,"end":199.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.76346875000002,"end":201.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.93221875,"end":203.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.86409375000002,"end":207.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.32346875000002,"end":219.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.46534375000002,"end":219.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.86159375000003,"end":222.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.58721875,"end":224.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.35034375,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.82659375,"end":227.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.42096875000001,"end":231.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.18034375000002,"end":237.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.81659375,"end":239.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.33096875,"end":242.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.58784375000002,"end":244.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.38096875000002,"end":255.23159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.65346875000003,"end":258.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.2140937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先用直白的競爭的這個角度來思考來看這個法條的所謂定義好不好所以獨佔是指你的主委意思說可能在50%以上那可能就是沒有競爭就會變獨佔有可能有可能那寡佔呢?"},{"start":130.148,"end":132.869,"text":"蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易"},{"start":150.148,"end":151.589,"text":"兩年前也有很"},{"start":178.848,"end":179.649,"text":"二）本院委員蔡易餘"},{"start":199.863,"end":219.962,"text":"一哥跟二哥分別吃下了一些小老弟那他們把小老弟排除掉了有可能會變成寡占嗎因為前年跟大陸發病我們當時的算他的市占率其實才30幾那台灣的零售從事零售行業的業者是相當多當然啦我知道很多嘛可是畢竟他是大哥啊那當時算出來是"},{"start":223.005,"end":242.601,"text":"三十幾啦,三十幾的市長。所以三十幾嘛,所以你還認為說他們還不到寡占啦。是。所以這個定義就不清楚啦。那回到了今天大家關心的啦,回到了。那所以現在二哥也是要再吃掉一哥。Uber Eats要吃掉Fu Panda。"},{"start":243.652,"end":258.148,"text":"那以剛剛主委你講的可能到了50%的一個市場他可能就已經是到獨占了那寡占可能就是像聽起來你認為在三十幾%的時候還不構成寡占因為你說全年吃掉"},{"start":259.929,"end":274.854,"text":"大論發大論發在三十幾趴所以你認為說他還是屬在一個競爭完全競爭的市場還沒有到寡占所以看起來所謂寡占就是在所謂三十幾趴到五十趴這個任局囉是嗎這個要"},{"start":280.168,"end":307.354,"text":"不同的產業有不同的情況,其實很難用加數或者是比例,要看它整個市場競爭的狀況。總是有一些比較直白的認定,因為大家消費者都是這樣去看說,到底我們生活的環境裡面遇到這個產業,這個產業它有沒有處在一個壟斷,或者是一個寡占的一個規模,這個我想大家心裡都有數。"},{"start":308.354,"end":337.273,"text":"那主委你這樣來看的話那這樣的一個外送平台他們到底是兩個加起來會變獨佔還是寡佔?兩個加起來市佔率那麼高應該可以到獨佔的情況兩個加起來就獨佔了好啊如果既然這樣的話就是說這兩個一哥二哥並一哥會變成獨佔的一個市場那是不是未來所有的交易的一個條件都是由這個新的"},{"start":338.959,"end":367.18,"text":"這個Uber Eats因為他吃掉了Foodpanda所以他就可以訂所有的交易條件不排除有這個可能不排除因為他現在就有在訂價那結合以後他會怎麼訂價這個要再觀察好那再請教就是說那因為他們這兩家公司外送平台他們都已經運作已經超過有一些年份了所以他們自然有他們各自過去他們在經營的時候有各自的"},{"start":367.98,"end":385.125,"text":"對商家的承諾或者是他們對於外送員也有部分的一些福利那他們併購之後過去的條件是否會依然存在這個也是大家想要問的一個問題那這個是公平會有在觀察的嗎"},{"start":386.614,"end":411.426,"text":"對兩家公司結合不管是在公司法或是這個其他的這個法律都會有一些權利義務如何交接的問題那就公平會來講我們審查的是對競爭秩序的影響所以這個面向會包括將來的市場集中度還有這個併購方將來這個台價的能力還有交易相對的我們剛剛提到這個外送員餐廳或者是消費者我舉例我舉例"},{"start":413.307,"end":441.354,"text":"過去很多外送員如果他外送員是有品性或者是他們服務態度不佳的那可能在Uber Eats跟Foodpanda都有各自去處罰外送員去比方說禁止僱用他們可能有怎樣的一個狀況會有一些禁止僱用或者是有一些商家他們可能就可能就合作就是是不合作的好那如果併購了之後勒"},{"start":442.486,"end":451.541,"text":"那普遍大以前禁止僱用的會回來嗎?這是也涉及到一些勞動條件就是他們自己條件所以這部分都不在你們的"},{"start":452.694,"end":477.813,"text":"你們的考量範圍我們會考慮到這一些外送員過去他們不用把這些狀況跟你們報告嗎就是說我們這兩家併購了那麼未來要怎麼運作這件事也要讓你們知道我們會需要了解我們都會去了解這需要了解嗎我們將來跟外送員的部分除了我們會爭取利害關係人外送員的意見也會跟勞動部跨機關來做交換意見"},{"start":479.614,"end":495.274,"text":"對你除了遵循外送人意見我覺得你最主要要先問清楚這兩家到底他們過去他們所有的權益物關係包括跟商家包括跟外送人他們的權益關係在於他們如果併購"},{"start":497.56,"end":509.785,"text":"會變成怎樣?他們要跟你們說嘛!是,這個我們都會通常去瞭解。他們如果沒有跟你們說,你們跟他們說我們要看他們的比例。我們要看他們的市場的競爭會不會影響到,這樣聽起來,你如果要看那裡,"},{"start":515.031,"end":515.692,"text":"蔡易餘 蔡易餘 蔡易餘"},{"start":532.614,"end":533.535,"text":"蔡易餘委員、李美竺委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}