{"error":false,"id":["152918"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152918,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152918","日期":"2024-05-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-23T11:41:30+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-23T11:52:17+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:47","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa4531d63938abb107ed89f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e8343e9052c5e581b275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:41:30 - 11:52:17","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":871,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時41分）主席謝謝！麻煩請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：何部長，第一天來立法院備詢，但之前你是用其他的身分，不過我想以勞動部長身分第一天，我必須要說，剛剛看了你接受幾個委員的質詢，我覺得你還沒有準備好，實在話講，為什麼？陳亭妃委員、民進黨委員剛剛問的那一個問題──各產業缺工的人數？哪一個部會有整理了？"],["何部長佩珊：其實我們的平臺會議……"],["洪委員孟楷：國發會整理的，可以問一下國發會，google一下，就google得到國發會，國發會就有講經濟部各產業缺工現況，國發會每三年會做一次報告，就有把重點的產業統計出來缺工狀況。昨天本席在經濟委員會質詢國發會副主委的時候，也有問到相關的問題，IC產業或是AI產業現在缺工的狀況差不多兩萬五千人，各其他行業也有其他的缺工人才，所以這個部分可以跨部會瞭解。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，勞動部重要的工作是在於，很多委員都有問到年金改革，我剛剛看到今天一個標題寫說，撥補就是改革，就是現在我們新任部長所講的話、發言，所以意思是，您宣告有可能在你任內不會推動年金改革，是這樣嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：就是這句話「撥補就是改革」，我們會延續撥補的……"],["洪委員孟楷：撥補就是改革，所以不會有其他的動作？"],["何部長佩珊：未來我們會持續推動撥補的改革。"],["洪委員孟楷：持續推動撥補的改革，就撥多或撥少，但不會做其他的部分，是不是？部長。"],["何部長佩珊：我們會有開源的一些作法啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：2024年2月29日前任部長許銘春他上專訪的時候講，勞保缺口不能只靠撥補，解決問題還是要改革；結果新任部長第一天到立法院講說缺口就是撥補，解決問題沒有其他方式了，不會要改革了。所以我就不禁好奇啊！之前一直傳說勞動部長有可能許銘春會持續留任，但到最後最後一刻變成您，是不是因為他講了這句話，跟現在新任總統的方向不一致，所以就換一個可以貫徹新任總統意志的人？所以新任總統的方向就是──勞保缺口就是靠撥補、就是不用做其他改革，是這樣嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：對啊！這就是我現在的作法。"],["洪委員孟楷：非常好，留下紀錄。但是我們也看到，您真的認為現在的這個年金相關的制度都沒有任何需要再調整或是討論改變的地方嗎？賴清德總統之前在選總統的時候有講過，當然他講的有一些話很好聽──有政府勞保不會倒、有政府給大家靠；但是他也有提過說要社會共識來尋求解決問題的方式，其中我們有提到提撥率6%的部分，到目前為止也都沒有調整。"],["何部長佩珊：這是另外一個部分的問題，這是勞退條例的部分能不能再提高？這要修法。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["何部長佩珊：這要進行修法，我們會來研議處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：會有研議處理？"],["何部長佩珊：對、對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以您認為怎麼樣的一個方向是大家覺得合理而可行的？因為今天也在做政策對話，所以我也要瞭解……"],["何部長佩珊：當然、當然、當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：您新任部長的一個想法，之前大家也都有提過，勞團也呼籲提高雇主的提撥率，現在是6%，之前的講法說6%是最低標準啦，你們可以用勞資雙方去協商，你們也可以提高提撥率啊！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但我們現在有沒有掌握？本席也想請教另外一個統計掌握的問題，有沒有掌握我們目前全國的企業裡面，哪一些企業的提撥率高於6%？有多少比例的企業現在提撥率是高於6%的？多少比例？"],["何部長佩珊：現在的提撥率，只要是企業的部分其實應該都有提撥……"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！6%是最低標準……"],["何部長佩珊：對啊！最低啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是我們法律規定……"],["何部長佩珊：而且是一定要做……"],["洪委員孟楷：一定要嘛！我們之前提過勞團一直呼籲說要提高，那你們一直強調是說6%只是最低標準，你們協商就可以提高。本席現在的問題就是，到底有哪個企業是透過協商之後提高提撥率的？"],["何部長佩珊：不高啦、不多啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：當然不高啊，一定不高啊！"],["何部長佩珊：就不多啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：一定不高啊，如果說高的話，我們就不用用法令訂定一個最低的地板嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對、對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：是，所以我們現在要研議來推動修法。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，研議修法。"],["何部長佩珊：這個我們會做。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，您覺得應該要提高到多少才算是您心中的目標？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個部分我們還必須跟勞資雙方來協商啦……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你覺得現在6%是要提高的，但是要提高到多少，目前你還沒有一個定見？"],["何部長佩珊：不是沒有定見……"],["洪委員孟楷：你有定見就講出來啊！"],["何部長佩珊：是我們還必須討論，我們還必須討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：還是不方便把部長的底牌掀出來？"],["何部長佩珊：哈哈哈哈！容我私下跟您報告好了。"],["洪委員孟楷：不要私下啦！我們在私下很怕都是密會協商，我們大家都希望公開透明。"],["何部長佩珊：是、是、是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，今天……"],["何部長佩珊：而且我要跟委員報告，這個也要考慮整個景氣變動的因素啦，也就是說，我們可能要……"],["洪委員孟楷：過去蔡英文政府的時候，不是講說臺灣景氣是史上最好，股市兩萬多點……"],["何部長佩珊：是、是、是，當然、當然、當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！這樣的話，因為你講到景氣，如果以現在政府大內宣的狀況，我覺得翻1倍感覺都可以期待囉？是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，現在我們是準備很積極來推這件事情啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：積極是多久內會有？"],["何部長佩珊：我們儘量、我們儘量。"],["洪委員孟楷：不要都用文青式的語言，來立法院我想它就不是……我們是公開討論政策，您能夠推動、能夠負責，不要預期在野黨給你掌聲，但是我相信在野黨一定理性地監督。"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：不會惡意地來阻撓，但是既然講出來，你們時間點就要做。另外，因為時間到，但我最後一分鐘，本席從第10屆就一直在推動外送平臺跟外送員的保障專法。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：第10屆的時候我就有送出相關的草案，第11屆我現在也已經送出來。剛剛有委員提到，就是因為現在兩大平臺業者龍頭也要併購，不管併購與否有沒有成案，可是對於14萬名外送員勞工的保障、餐廳、業者的保障，以及消費者權益的保障，都應該要有一個專法；對於各縣市現在也都有訂定安全指引，但不管指引再怎麼訂定，就是比不上正式立法的約束力。我先肯定一下前任部長，他至少在我講的時候說，一個禮拜內要把過去跟外送平臺還有相關開會的紀錄上網，一個禮拜內確實做到了，本席也看到了。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是還是不夠，在於不能每一次跟外送平臺的溝通都要靠部長，或是都要靠我們官員約他們來喝咖啡，而是應該要真的確立最基本的一個保障跟專法，想請教部長您的態度？"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：能不能支持？"],["何部長佩珊：這是我們要去努力的方向。"],["洪委員孟楷：努力的方向？所以部長支持我們能夠有一個外送平臺專法？因為現在大家也覺得，外送員不是之前所提勞基法保障的勞工，他算比較非典型的勞工，非典型勞工就應該有彈性的保障，所以我們才會強調要有外送員及外送平臺的相關專法，它能夠保障外送員、餐廳及消費者的權益。"],["何部長佩珊：對，不過我還是要強調一點，推動專法的目的是要協助外送員可以跟強勢的平臺談判，要對這個有幫助，但是外送員彼此之間是不是有共識，這個要考慮。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，你總不可能訂定一個專法……我說實在話，不是讓哪一方強勢，而是保障最基本的、大家合理的權益，這兩者不一樣。我沒有說一定是站在……如果哪一天外送員的力量大到平臺受不了，我也覺得應該要平衡，但重點在於什麼？重點在於現在很明顯平臺的權力大，兩個龍頭的議價空間、制定規則的能力已經大過很多，如果未來併購之後變成一家龍頭，我剛剛也詢問過公平會主委，世界各國到目前為止還沒有哪一家獨大的外送平臺。"],["主席：洪委員，等一下是不是請勞動部長……"],["洪委員孟楷：你如果去找其他產業的話，就變成是壟斷市場。"],["主席：勞動部長等一下會後再跟你報告，好不好？"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，專法的部分……"],["主席：因為時間的關係……"],["洪委員孟楷：你的態度說會努力，本席已經提出來了，我相信有其他委員的版本，我們正式排審的時候，我要看到勞動部保障勞工的決心，可以嗎？"],["主席：是不是請勞動部會後再跟委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：最後要回答一下，你說「好」但是沒有錄到音，這樣子不行，按個麥克風講一下。","真的啦！沒有啦！我要結束了。"],["主席：好啦！因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：我要結束了。"],["主席：洪委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：我要結束了。"],["主席：因為時間的關係……"],["洪委員孟楷：主席，我知道，最後部長說好，但是因為你剛剛沒有按麥克風……"],["主席：會後請勞動部再跟洪委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：說這個「好」都不能留下紀錄？"],["何部長佩珊：我們尊重主席的裁示。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們加油，好不好？"],["主席：因為時間的關係，後面還有很多委員要發言。","好，接下來請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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是啊那這樣的話依您講到景氣如果以現在政府大內宣的狀況我覺得"},{"start":391.544,"end":397.227,"text":"當然現在我們是準備很積極來推這件事情的積極會多久內會有我們盡量不要多用文青式的語言來立法院我想他就不是我們是公開討論政策您能夠推動能夠負責"},{"start":414.056,"end":440.074,"text":"不要預期在野黨給你掌聲但是我相信在野黨一定理性的監督當然不會惡意的來阻撓但是既然講出來我們時間點就要做那另外因為時間到但我最後一分鐘本期從第10屆就一直在推動外送平台跟外送員的保障專訪是第10屆的時候我就有送出相關的草案第11屆我現在也已經送出來"},{"start":440.851,"end":459.42,"text":"那剛剛有委員提到就是因為現在兩大平台業者龍頭也要做合併購那在不管併購與否有沒有成案可是對於外送員14萬名的外送員勞工的保障餐廳業者的保障以及消費者權益的保障都應該要有一個專法"},{"start":461.201,"end":484.746,"text":"那對於各縣市現在也都有訂立安全指引但不管指引再怎麼訂立就是比不上正式立法的約束力我先肯定一下前任部長他至少在我講的時候說一個禮拜內要把過去跟外送平台還有相關開會的紀錄上網一個禮拜內確實做到了本席也看到了但是還是不夠在於是"},{"start":485.246,"end":514.486,"text":"不能每一次跟外送平臺的溝通都要靠部長或是都要靠我們官員約他們來喝咖啡而是應該要真的確立有一個最基本的一個保障跟專法想請教部長您的態度當然能不能支持這是我們要去這個努力的方向努力的方向所以部長是支持如果說我們能夠有一個專法外送平臺專法因為現在大家也覺得是說外送員不是"},{"start":515.851,"end":534.819,"text":"我們之前所提的這個勞基法保障的勞工他算比較非典型勞工非典型勞工我們就應該要有彈性的保障所以我們才強調是說有外送員及外送平台的相關專法能夠保障外送員保障餐廳保障消費者權益"},{"start":535.718,"end":551.093,"text":"對,不過我還是要強調一點我們推動專法目的是要幫協助外送委員可以跟強勢的平台談判要對這個有幫助啦那外送委員他們彼此之間是不是有共識這個要考慮你總不可能另一個專法"},{"start":552.25,"end":569.693,"text":"本席其實我說實在話我覺得說不是說讓誰哪一方有強勢而是保障最基本大家的合理的權益這兩者不一樣我沒有說一定是站在如果說哪一天外送員的力量大到是說平台受不了"},{"start":570.214,"end":594.284,"text":"我也覺得應該要有平衡但重點在於是什麼重點在於是現在很明顯的就是平台的權益大兩個龍頭他們的議價空間他們的制定規則的能力已經大過很多那如果說未來併購之後變成一家龍頭我剛剛也詢問過我們公平會主委公平會主委就是說世界各國到目前為止還沒有哪一家獨大的外送平台"},{"start":595.25,"end":616.886,"text":"那你如果說去找其他產業的話就變成是寡占市場、壟斷市場所以部長專法的部分你的態度說會努力本席已經提出來了我相信有其他委員版本我們正式排審的時候我要看到勞動部保障勞工的決心可以嗎?"},{"start":619.141,"end":635.915,"text":"最後要回答一下說那個好你沒有錄到音這樣子不行來按個麥克風講一下好真的啦沒有啦我要結束了我要結束了我知道就是最後那個部長說好但是因為你剛剛沒有麥克風這個好都不能留下記錄部長我們加油好不好好因為時間的關係"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}