{"error":false,"id":["152923"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152923,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152923","日期":"2024-05-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-23T12:10:58+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-23T12:20:58+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:00","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453506bc80ff78493309f2fcaa3dc194f73d34e896d657c5e83289a28f6fbfadc525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:10:58 - 12:20:58","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月22日、23日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1049,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時11分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我想先恭喜你上任。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你上任我最關心的就是我們勞保的基金，我們看到2023年勞保基金大概負債13.4兆多，比照上一年度的12.3兆多，增加了將近7,300億，換句話說，每一個人平均所背的負債大概是56萬。在這樣的情況之下，我們又看到往前推，2020年精算負債是11.5兆，到目前為止，因為每一任的部長都會說，年金我要改革，您新官上任，針對這個議題，你要怎麼樣做？請教說明。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我剛剛大概都已經回復了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請說明。"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們會持續進行撥補，撥補就是改革。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：撥補怎麼會是改革？"],["何部長佩珊：我跟委員解釋……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：它本來就沒事都在撥補，撥補怎麼改革……"],["何部長佩珊：我們這4年……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你怎麼撥補？請說明。"],["何部長佩珊：不、不、不，我要跟委員解釋。馬政府時代不曾進行撥補，是從蔡總統執政後2020年我們才開始撥補……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你針對議題。"],["何部長佩珊：進行到現在4年……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你針對議題。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在是勞動部的部長。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不是政治的宣傳者，怎麼說呢？你越撥補，你負債越多耶！所以你應該要以你勞動部部長的身分去討論……"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我要怎麼樣讓我的勞工能夠安心，我的基金能夠增加，除了撥補之外，還有沒有什麼方法？"],["何部長佩珊：我跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果你要宣傳以前沒有，以前沒有反而負債沒那麼多，你現在負債越來越多，你就你現在……為什麼要換部長？就是因為前任在執行當中，結果論的答案是不佳的，所以你應該針對這個議題啊！你怎麼能政治宣傳呢？對嗎？請做說明。"],["何部長佩珊：我跟委員報告，我們撥補這4年來，勞保的基金水位已經創新高了，現在是9,941億，而且還包括了投資收益，所以我們其實也有進行開源的努力。因為這個所謂的勞保年改都是用節流的思考，其實這做不到的，因為現在勞工已經領太少了。我跟委員報告，勞工已經……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是全國的共識嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不能從勞工的身上去剝皮嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是，所以我們現在用撥補……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你現在……"],["何部長佩珊：我們現在用撥補的改革來處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你現在是勞動部長，好不好？請你將你認為怎麼可以幫我們的基金、幫我們的勞工，讓他能夠更安心、更放心，你把你準備擔任部長之後，你希望這個步驟要怎麼做，請把書面資料給本席好嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來，因為本席發覺部長你也有用心，我們在講的時候，你眼睛往上吊，在努力聽啦！所以不用緊張，你以你的專業好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不是一個政治的宣傳者，你是勞動部長，這樣我們才有辦法繼續討論嘛！","接下來，本席要請教低薪的問題。我想你是勞動部長，你一定站在勞工的這一邊，通膨吃掉我們的薪資，所以如果以通膨再吃掉的部分，我們的薪資是往下掉的，本席做了一個統計，數字會講話。平均值我們是只有提高2%，可是我們的通膨絕對不只這2%，所以我號稱我們的低薪是持續在下降的，是持續在……嚴肅的議題。所以針對這個部分，本席要請教，因為我如果以3月全體受雇員工的這個部分，平均薪資是4.6萬，年增大概2%，大概是這樣子，可是如果加上通膨，我稱為它是常態性的、經常性的薪資，它是負成長，所以在這個議題當中，你要怎麼捍衛我們勞工的一個權利？請做說明。"],["何部長佩珊：當然委員，所謂的加薪追不上通膨，這確實是存在的，這個我是很佩服您有觀察到這樣子的現象。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有什麼樣的方法，你不用佩服我，你告訴我方法。"],["何部長佩珊：所以我們第一個，當然這個通膨的問題是跨部會要去解決的，這我會來持續跟行政院反映，因為這牽涉到央行的政策、牽涉到我們整個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：跨部會嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：對，這是跨部會的問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你講跨部會我也支持你，要去做橫向聯繫。"],["何部長佩珊：是、是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這也是我一直建議這個政府，你不要橫向的聯繫都不做，讓各部會個各自「沐沐泅」，這是不對的，這是一個無為的政府。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你第一場是站在這個備詢台，你說要跨部會，我認同你這個觀念。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這個低薪的方案，你認為你要怎麼樣建議給我們的行政院？你就你自己的立場，你也把詳細的書面資料給本席，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第三個議題，大家都非常關心兩個外送平台要合併，今天在我們經濟委員會，我們的公平會主委，他說了、他認定，因為目前這兩家平台是占全國平台最多的。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他也認為這個是獨占，獨占會成立，因為這兩家是最大嘛！商業上我們要讚許它，但問題是，如果兩家併起來的時候，它現在送給公平會，公平會會不會同意有四大項，第一個，我們整個經濟體系，第二個，會不會達到聯合行為的一個壟斷，現在這兩家是最大，而且公平會也認為它是獨立最大。那兩個都是獨立最大，兩個加起來當然是巨獸啊！所以這個聯合行為……哇！這個精髓就到囉！所以這個也是在他們四項審查的項目之一，這是剛剛我們在經濟委員會所討論的。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來就是你的問題了，公平會的主委說他會找你，因為勞動部，我要為我們外送平台的外送員請命，外送員要怎麼辦？所以這個，剛剛我們在經濟委員會，我問了公平會，公平會主委也說，外送平台的外送員，他們的權益也會納在他們是否同意合併的條件之一。","我把這個background告訴你，所以你必須要站在我們勞工的立場，他會找你。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他剛剛跟我說的。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也就是跨部會去討論，所以到時候我建請我們部長，你一定要堅持在我們勞工的立場、權益的立場，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這一點是非常、非常重要喔！"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我今天就這三項的議題來跟你做討論。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們發覺到現在少子化，而且老闆找不到工，我們現在是缺工，你應該知道這個原因吧？這個社會面向是缺工，但是不要搞到無人可用的境界。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在是「缺」而已喔，如果持續惡化下去，不要走到無人可用的境界，所以中高年齡的勞工，對我們來講，是我們的寶貝啊！這一些沒有功勞也有苦勞的中高年齡的勞工是我們的寶貝，我們要怎麼樣穩住他們？我們要怎麼樣鼓勵我們的新芽，讓青年勞工願意加入這個陣容？鞏固中高齡這個基本盤的勞工，鼓勵青年勞工能夠加入，這個社會才不會變成無人可用的勞工市場，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長你頻頻點頭，因為時間的關係，我還是要你做功課，你把剛才本席所講的第三個議題，中高齡要怎麼穩固？怎麼鼓勵我們的青年？請你也把詳細書面資料給本席。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對這三個議題，我要你的書面資料。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：結論：到時候公平會主委找你的時候，你務必要站在外送平臺外送員這邊，他們的權益一定要鞏固住，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員支持。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，也請勞動部針對楊委員所需要的資料會後再提供。","接下來請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":464,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-17","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王育敏","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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每席想邀請何部長"},{"start":13.53,"end":40.859,"text":"委員好部長先恭喜你上任上任我最關心的就是我們勞保的基金我們看到2023年勞保基金大概負債13.4兆多比上一年度12.3兆多那是增加了將近7300億換句話說每一個人平均他的背的負債大概是56萬"},{"start":42.279,"end":67.792,"text":"那在這種情況之下我沒有看到往前推2020年金算負債是11.5兆那到目前為止因為每一任的部長都會說這個年金會要改革那您新官三任你針對這個議題你要怎麼樣做請教說明委員我剛剛大概已經都有回覆請說明是就是我們會持續進行撥補撥補就是改革"},{"start":73.325,"end":75.026,"text":"請你針對議題你現在是勞動部的部長你不是政治的宣傳者"},{"start":102.429,"end":104.82,"text":"怎麼說呢?你越撥撥啊!"},{"start":106.363,"end":132.835,"text":"你負債越多欸所以你應該要以你勞動部部長的身份去討論我要怎麼樣讓我的勞工能夠安心我的基金能夠增加除了撥補之外還有什麼方法你要宣傳以前沒有以前沒有反而負債沒那麼多你現在負債越來越多你就你現在為什麼要換部長"},{"start":134.016,"end":162.861,"text":"就是因為前任的在執行的當中結果論的答案是不佳的所以你應該針對這個議題啊你怎麼來政治宣傳呢?對嗎?請做說明我跟委員報告我們撥補這四年來勞保的基金水位已經創新高了現在是9941億過去而且是還包括了投資收益所以我們其實要進行開源的努力"},{"start":163.661,"end":166.602,"text":"這是全國的共識嘛!你不能從勞工的身上去撥皮嘛!所以我們現在用撥皮"},{"start":185.958,"end":212.92,"text":"我們現在用撥部的改革來處理你現在是勞動部長好不好請你請你將你認為怎麼樣可以幫我們的基金幫我們的勞工他能夠更安心可以更放心那你把那個你準備你擔任部長之後你希望這個步驟要怎麼做請順便這個給本席好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":214.861,"end":218.303,"text":"接下來本席要請教低薪的問題"},{"start":240.785,"end":252.699,"text":"我想你是勞動部長,你一定站在勞工的這一面。通本吃掉我們的薪資。所以如果以通本再吃掉的部分,我們的薪資是往下掉的。"},{"start":253.7,"end":280.395,"text":"我本期做了一個統計數字會講話平均值我們是只有提高兩趴可是我們的通膨絕對不止這兩趴所以我號稱我們的地心是持續在下降持續在嚴肅的議題所以針對這個部分本期要請教因為我如果以三月份全體受僱的員工的這個部分平均是4.6"},{"start":281.616,"end":281.676,"text":"請出說明。"},{"start":301.343,"end":324.767,"text":"當然委員這個所謂這個加薪追不上通膨這確實是存在的這個我是很佩服您有觀察到這樣子的現象所以我們第一個當然啦這個通膨的問題是跨部會要去解決的啦這我會來持續跟行政院反映因為這牽涉到央行的政策牽涉到我們整個跨部會的問題我也支持你"},{"start":327.849,"end":328.29,"text":"是。是。是。"},{"start":334.281,"end":334.301,"text":"第3個議題"},{"start":364.448,"end":386.609,"text":"大家都非常關心兩個外送平台要合併今天在我們經濟委員會我們的公交會公民會的這個主委他說了他認定因為目前這兩家平台是佔全國平台最多的他也認為這個是獨佔"},{"start":389.944,"end":404.091,"text":"一會成立獨佔會成立那因為這兩家是最大嘛商業我們要讚許他但是問題是他如果兩家併起來的時候他現在送送給公民會那公民會會不會同意有四大項第一個我們整個經濟體系"},{"start":408.8,"end":422.985,"text":"第二個會不會達到聯合行為的一個壟斷那現在兩家是最大而且公平會認為他是獨立最大那兩個都是獨立最大兩個加起來當然是巨數啊那所以這個聯合行為哇這個精髓就到了所以這個也是在他們事項在審查的項目之一這是剛剛我們在這個經濟委員會所討論接下來就你的問題了"},{"start":439.79,"end":467.862,"text":"公平會的主委他說他會找你因為勞動部我要為我們外送平台外送員要請命外送員要怎麼辦所以這個剛剛我們在經濟委員會我問了公平會公平會主委也說外送平台的這個外送員他們的權益也會納在他們是否同意合併的條件之一我把這個備份告訴你"},{"start":469.543,"end":490.923,"text":"所以你必須要站在我們勞工的這個立場他會找你這個是也就是跨部會去討論所以到時候我建請我們部長你一定要堅持在我們勞工的這個立場權力的立場好不好這一點是非常非常的重要所以"},{"start":491.724,"end":519.542,"text":"我今天這三項的議題來跟你做討論我們發覺到現在少子化而且勞工這個老闆找不到工我們現在是缺工缺工你應該知道這個原因吧這個社會面向是缺工但是不要搞到無人可用的境界現在是缺工如果持續惡化下去"},{"start":520.643,"end":543.687,"text":"不要走到無人可用的這個境界所以中高年齡的勞工對我們來講是我們的寶貝啊這些沒有功勞又苦啦中高年齡的勞工是我們的寶貝我們要怎麼樣穩住他們我們要怎麼樣鼓勵我們的新娘我們的青年勞工他願意要加入這個陣容鞏固我們的中高年齡這個基本法"},{"start":550.438,"end":576.208,"text":"的勞工鼓勵我們的青年勞工能夠加入這個社會才不會變成無緣可用的勞工市場啊對不對部長你頻頻的點頭也因為時間的關係我第三個功課我還是要你做功課你把剛才本席第三個議題中高年齡要怎麼穩固它怎麼鼓勵我們青年"},{"start":577.108,"end":597.595,"text":"那麼你也想寫書面資料給本席這三個議題我要你的書面資料結論到時候公平會這個主委找你的時候你務必一定要站在我們外送平台的外送員的一個權益一定要鞏固住好不好好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}