{"error":false,"id":["153010"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153010,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153010","日期":"2024-05-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-27T10:39:12+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-27T10:50:53+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:41","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3a08c8dac4d675a54442d3172de404894945ede7791f90b9e523787622360289c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"10:39:12 - 10:50:53","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":408,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時39分）謝謝主席，請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早。部長，我想你剛到立法院，本席對於數發部只有一個重中之重，臺灣民眾認為臺灣的新三害就是詐騙、認知作戰跟網路犯罪，部長，你有沒有被網路詐騙或者是被簡訊詐騙過？"],["黃部長彥男：收過很多，但是沒有被騙過。"],["蔡委員其昌：你蠻聰明的，從來沒有上當過。"],["黃部長彥男：沒有。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，那你有沒有被網路犯罪襲擊過，譬如說你資料被鎖住、要勒索你，有沒有？"],["黃部長彥男：這個也沒有。"],["蔡委員其昌：也都沒有？"],["黃部長彥男：沒有。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，你知道這個問題很嚴重？"],["黃部長彥男：我瞭解、瞭解。"],["蔡委員其昌：數發部第一件事情，這件事情沒有做好，數發部長這個位子很難坐得住，部長，你有沒有這樣的認知？這個不是認知作戰喔，這是你有沒有這樣的認知，有沒有？"],["黃部長彥男：瞭解，我知道這個大家期待很高，當然這也是我當初願意接受這樣的職務，就是我覺得很多問題可以用科技來解決，所以我希望能夠把科技帶進來，然後幫助國家解決一些這樣的一個問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：上一個部長叫唐鳳，唐鳳也是科技界的奇才，唐鳳部長做了一些事情，但不管怎麼樣，民眾是不滿意的，所以今天你來當數發部的部長，我第一個必須要先提醒你，這是一個善意的提醒，如果部長沒有辦法把這三件事情做好，當然特別是詐騙跟網路犯罪；認知作戰因為涉及到整個國家整體的體系，但至少在詐騙上面，那個是所有臺灣人民每一天必須要遭受的侵犯，每一天你打開，你說到今天剛剛我聽上一個委員在問你，何委員在問你的時候，特別去提到所謂平臺業者，到今天名人詐騙我隨便打開手機都可以看得到啊，防不勝防，而且煩不勝煩。部長，除了道德勸說，就是說電子簽章法過了，現在行政院打詐的專法也送到立法院來了，到通過三讀、開始落實實施、相關的規定辦法都出來，時間我不知道要多久，但是至少人民每天的生活他都要繼續，那在這一段期間，除了剛剛你所回答的道德勸說之外，還有沒有其他的可能？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我剛剛講就是我們希望加速發現剛剛講這些假廣告或假訊息，能夠要求這些平臺商，因為以前通報他們就需要點時間，比如民眾打到165，165再去處理、然後再通報，這也許半天、一天已經過去了，那我們現在是希望有這樣的一個，我們就打到查詢的通報網，能夠縮短，也許是瞬間或是很短時間就能夠通報。"],["蔡委員其昌：這是3個月後的事啦？"],["黃部長彥男：對，3個月後的事，但是這個是可以幫助。在這個之前，跟委員講，就是我現在還是一樣，當然就是我們會定期跟這些平臺商再繼續溝通。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我知道，我知道你要溝通，也喝咖啡啦，除了送上咖啡，可不可以送上毒藥？"],["黃部長彥男：我們就是要給一些壓力……"],["蔡委員其昌：真的，民眾真的很受不了了，作為民意代表，我必須要把民眾的憤怒真的轉達給部長知道。"],["黃部長彥男：所以這部分的工作，我們請次長，他有……"],["蔡委員其昌：來，次長，有沒有什麼更厲害的方法？老是送上好喝的咖啡，業者也是喝一喝就走了，可不可以送上一點難喝的，或者甚至有毒的？"],["林次長宜敬：是，委員說的沒錯，我們現在的策略是多管齊下，一方面我們是很期待打詐專法的通過，然後以後這種投資廣告都有實名制，但是那個時間實在太久了，所以我們希望再設法努力能不能在3個月之內有這個打詐查詢通報網，看能不能讓它上線，這個的目的就是當有人通報的時候，我覺得現在民眾都生活在網路上，其他的民眾就很簡單地把可疑的網址貼上去，看是不是已經有人通報了？然後政府是不是已經有在處理了？處理的狀況我們給大家知道，這是第二件事情。剛剛委員有提到，事實上，3個月對民眾感覺來講好像還太長了，所以我們現在其實已經啟動另外一個更短期的機制，就是建立一個公眾人物的……當他的身分被仿冒的時候，他有一個通報的管道，我們現在已經陸續在跟這些名人有一些通報的管道，事實上各位委員如果有這方面的困擾的話，我們也很希望把這個服務提供給您，以後您如果發現您的身分被仿冒，有人在做那個詐騙廣告的時候，可以馬上通知我們，然後我們收到這個訊息以後就趕快去通知Facebook，然後我們在輿論上讓Facebook感受到它必須趕快處理這些訊息。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以次長還沒有想出好的方法嘛，因為還是透過輿論的力量、社會的壓力嘛！我建議你們好好地花一點時間去研究，民不與官鬥啦，為什麼？因為官有很多種方法，官有很多的手段，我不相信數發部只有好喝的咖啡啦，所以我還是堅信你們還是可以再找出方法，我不相信這些平臺業者一而在再而三地放縱，讓這些詐騙不斷地層出不窮在它的平臺上面。部長，這是我對你的期許，要有KPI啦，我還是會問你，我們常常會在立法院見面啦！好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會給他難喝的咖啡。"],["蔡委員其昌：第二個，這個資安啊，我看現在經濟部把資安院移到數發部，然後今年我看你們的新聞稿上面去提到說，資安院承接臺灣電腦網路危機處理暨協調中心，我看到了這個新聞，可是我對一個數字覺得很疑惑，成立這個平臺很重要的是民間跟政府一起協力，對不對？參加廠商、企業的人數只有1,500人，這個是怎麼一回事啊？我們臺灣有百萬中小企業啊！"],["何院長全德：委員好。跟委員報告一下，因為目前對於民間企業的通報，沒有法律強制的要求，所以這邊是自願性的。然後資安院接手以後，我們就開始怎麼樣提供各種誘因，讓他願意來通報，比如講說，參加我們的會員以後，我們的情資可以分享，發生資安事件以後，我們可以來協助，所以透過各種管道來增加企業來這邊成為會員。第二，我們現在開始跟很多民間企業的供應鏈，包括像我們的高科技產業，包括像我們無店面公會，我們跟它來做聯防，希望透過這樣的管道把會員數目增加，讓我們的資安情報能夠在第一時間往企業來處理。第三個，我們要協助中小企業，中小企業是很大的一個挑戰，也希望中小企業會變成將來資安院可以服務的地方。以上補充，謝謝！"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，時間有限，下一次我會再好好討論。我先提醒你，一個資安院接了一個中心，接到今年的三個月，只收到二十到三十幾件通報，會員數只有一千五百多個，這種單位只有兩種狀況，一個就是好好地管理，讓這個數字快速明顯地增加；第二個就把它廢掉，浪費人民的公帑嘛！成立一個協調中心，通報二、三十件、3個月，駭客都活不下去了。一個駭客隨便一駭二、三十家、通報二、三十家，如果產業只有二、三十家，這個駭客活不下去，你現在懂我的意思嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：瞭解。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個表示成效真的要檢討。"],["黃部長彥男：再檢討。"],["蔡委員其昌：臺灣中小企業有數百間，資安的問題對他們來講很困擾，大部分資料被駭客駭了之後，只好乖乖地看要買乙太幣，還是買其他的數位貨幣，就直接趕快把資料拿回來比較快，為什麼法令不會強制呢？為什麼？這是因為你要設計誘因嘛！各位試想，這麼多無助的中小企業他們不會有資安部門啊！一間公司10個人、8個人、十幾個人，它是要怎麼有資安部門？所以它對資安到底要怎麼面對，其實現在就是看運氣嘛！希望駭客不要找上它，或者它沒有價值讓駭客來駭它。所以重點在於說，我們一定有誘因讓這些無助的中小企業覺得來參加這個很好，政府可以協助它什麼，來參加這個可以怎麼樣，通報之後可以怎麼得到什麼對待，這個才是今天成立這個協調中心重要的目的，因為臺灣的型態是大企業它不需要你，它認為它比你數發部還厲害，對不對？它認為他們自己就可以解決了。透過公協會，我們有太多的中小企業的公協會，隨便一個公協會只要一半的會員參加，你早就幾十萬了，不會是1,500個會員。","部長，所以本席提這個主要是告訴你說，這個是替中小企業出出聲音，我們要用腦筋想想看，什麼樣的方式可以讓中小企業覺得參加這個聯防對他們是有用的，參加這個聯防對他們的保護是有幫助的，參加這個聯防他們可以在這個無助的汪洋當中、網路犯罪的汪洋當中找到一根浮木啊？好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，時間的關係，我沒辦法再詳細，我只是提醒說，我還是會follow這個案子，你們一定要把這個成效做出來。"],["黃部長彥男：回去我跟何院長再把整個review一遍。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝！"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝！"],["主席：休息10分鐘。","休息（10時50分）","繼續開會（11時5分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請許智傑委員發言。我還是善意地提醒部長，不要再有威脅或者是難喝的咖啡這樣的字眼。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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成立這個 成立一個協調中心通報二三十件三個月 駭客都活不下去了啦一個駭客 隨便一駭 二三十家 通報二三十家 這個當駭客齁 這個產業當駭客這個產業如果只有二三十家 這駭客活不下去了"},{"start":563.39,"end":584.855,"text":"你現在懂我的意思嗎?所以這個表示成效真的要檢討台灣中小企業有數百件資安的問題對他們來講很困擾啊大部分資料一被駭客駭了之後只好乖乖的看要買以太幣還是買買買其他的這個數位貨幣就直接就快點資料拿回來快點啦"},{"start":585.967,"end":613.668,"text":"那為什麼法令不會強制嘛?為什麼?這是因為你要設計誘因嘛各位試想這麼多無助的中小企業他們不會有資安部門啦經常說40個人、80個人、70個人他要怎麼有資安部門所以他對資安到底要怎麼面對他其實就是現在就是看運氣嘛希望駭客不要找上他或者他沒有價值讓駭客來駭他"},{"start":615.305,"end":643.032,"text":"所以重點在於說我們一定有誘因讓這些無助的中小企業他覺得我來參加這個很好建物可以幫我協助什麼我來參加這個我可以怎麼樣我通報之後可以怎麼得到什麼對待這個才是今天成立這個協調中心重要的目的因為有台灣的型態大企業他不需要你他認為他比你書發部還厲害對不對他認為他們自己就可以解決"},{"start":644.295,"end":655.129,"text":"那透過工協會我們有太多的中小企業的工協會工協會隨便一個工協會只要參加一半的會員你早就幾十萬了不會是1500個會員"},{"start":658.098,"end":684.6,"text":"部長所以本席提這個主要是告訴你說這個是替中小企業出出聲音我們要用用腦筋想想看什麼樣的方式可以讓中小企業覺得參加這個聯訪是對他們是有用的參加這個聯訪對他們的保護是有幫助的參加這個聯訪他們可以在這個無助的汪洋當中網路犯罪的汪洋當中找到一根伏木"},{"start":685.541,"end":699.029,"text":"好不好部長時間的關係啦我沒辦法再詳細我只是提醒說我還是會follow這個案子你們一定要把這個這個成效要做出來回去我跟侯院長再把整個再錄一遍好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}