{"error":false,"id":["153012"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153012,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153012","日期":"2024-05-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-26","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":26,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-27T10:39:16+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-27T10:56:13+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:57","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b349d1bc01b0195ea6fcddaa0058768d2e945ede7791f90b9e26c9e25eb9bfc2d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:39:16 - 10:56:13","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員馬文君等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員黃健豪等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員涂權吉等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員王世堅等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條、第三百三十九條之三及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員葉元之等24人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員魯明哲等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【第二案（十七）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":442,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時39分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請次長跟司法院的刑事廳廳長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好，今天除了有關於追訴權時效的問題以外，其實我相信兩位應該很清楚，對於整個詐騙猖獗的狀況，在目前刑法第三百三十九條，或者是更具體的講第三百三十九條之四這個條文的法定刑我們已經規定到一年以上七年以下了，但大家真的在關心的是具體的實踐上到底發生了什麼事情。請兩位看一下，我在之前公聽會的時候就很清楚地點出來，臺版柬埔寨的主嫌「藍道」是怎麼樣從小弟到首腦，31個加重詐欺罪分成兩個審判程序，我們先看一下A案的審判程序，在2020年5月到6月的時候犯案，總共有12位被害人、12個加重詐欺罪，最後定執行刑出來，只有10個月，還給他易服勞動；在右手邊的另外一個審判程序，是他繼續地參與犯罪組織，共同詐騙了19位被害人，有19個加重詐欺罪，最後判刑2年、緩刑3年，連一天的牢都沒有坐過。針對這樣子刑事司法在個案當中實踐出來的結果，請教次長，站在法務部的立場能不能夠接受？"],["徐次長錫祥：第一，我們還是尊重法院的判決；第二，為了打擊這些詐騙集團，我們當然期待量刑上能夠符合被害人以及社會大眾的期待。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，當然每一個人都尊重法院的判決，但作為法律人，法院最後判決出來乃至於執行的結果，都是刑事司法體系當中的一環，我說的沒有錯吧？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：面對刑事司法體系實際運作的結果，我剛剛的問題是請教法務部，站在法務部的立場，我們國家要嚴肅地追訴詐欺犯罪這一件事情，這樣的結果對法務部而言能不能夠接受？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們還是尊重法院的判決，不過我們的立場還是希望能夠更具體……"],["黃委員國昌：現在有兩個層次，第一個，我為什麼問你能不能夠接受？如果這樣的結果從社會大眾的期待，從刑事法律不管是應報的功能、一般預防的功能，還是特別預防的功能，都沒有達到刑罰應該發揮的效果，這個時候我們應該誠實地面對、檢討，為什麼判決的結果會變成這個樣子？次長，您贊不贊同？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們贊同。現在……"],["黃委員國昌：好，如果你贊同的話請仔細看，在這個案子裡面，你覺得最嚴重的環節發生在什麼地方？"],["徐次長錫祥：應該是定執行刑。"],["黃委員國昌：現在定執行刑，每一個詐欺犯罪每一罪的宣告從一年到一年八個月，最後總宣告刑是二十一年兩個月，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：在目前數罪併罰的法規當中，我們要以每一個宣告刑最高的當做底線，總宣告刑二十一年兩個月當作上限，在這個空間當中給法官裁量，我的說明有沒有錯誤？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有錯嘛！作為一個立法者，當我們給法官這麼大的裁量權限，裁量出來的結果竟然是定執行刑兩年，這個會讓我們必須很嚴肅地面對一個問題──針對數罪併罰的部分，是不是給法官太多裁量權？有沒有必要修正？請教一下次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：我們在刑修會議裡面也做過討論。再來，我們也會在詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案第五十條規範，檢察官起訴的時候也會具體求刑。我們也……"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，剛剛你所講的專法，依現行法檢察官可不可以具體求刑？"],["徐次長錫祥：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛！所以就不要講空的。現在我在問的是，針對數罪併罰，把這麼大的裁量權交給法官，導致最後出來的結果是這個樣子，從法務部的立場，你們能不能夠接受？"],["徐次長錫祥：如果個案檢察官認為量刑過低的話，我們的確會再蒐集其他資料，依照法律程序提起……"],["黃委員國昌：就這個個案，你覺得檢察官應不應該覺得量刑過低？"],["徐次長錫祥：檢察官會認定個案。"],["黃委員國昌：現在我就在跟你講這個具體的案子，為什麼我會這樣說？這個是前案，這一位「藍道」還是小弟，只是這個犯罪組織其中的參與者，還沒有真正成為上面的領導人，但是要再往下看。剛剛的那一個判決，請次長跟司法院的刑事廳廳長看一下，2022年4月的時候全部判刑確定，犯罪時間方面，檢察官追訴的犯罪事實是在2020年，到2022年4月判刑確定。判刑確定以後，一個緩刑不用關，一個給他易服勞動，結果他在易服勞動的時候做了什麼事？發生了臺版柬埔寨案，從2022年8月到2022年11月，拘禁提供帳戶的人，凌虐他們，繼續進行詐騙。這一個案件檢察官什麼時候收網的，次長熟不熟？"],["徐次長錫祥：收網的時間我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：收網的時間我跟次長講……"],["徐次長錫祥：是士林地檢署偵辦的案子。"],["黃委員國昌：是，收網的時間是2022年11月，11月收網的時候杜承哲還沒有被抓到，其他的人先落網。好，沒有抓到他，但是臺版柬埔寨案已經被偵破，許多共犯都被抓，但是杜承哲跟其他幾個人跑了。在第一個案件當中，31個加重詐欺罪，這一位杜先生──「藍道」一天的牢都沒有坐，他在外面易服勞動的時候，在臺北、三重、淡水拘禁提供人頭帳戶的人，凌虐他們。2022年11月檢警收網，其他的人都被抓，這位杜先生還沒有被抓到。2023年3月，他繼續在臺中做什麼？繼續在臺中從事詐騙，而且拘禁人頭帳戶的提供者，用手銬、腳鐐的方式控制他們的行動自由，繼續從事詐騙。我們的刑事體系、我們的刑罰體系為什麼會讓整個社會大眾看到……不僅僅是詐騙犯，還是組織犯罪裡面的成員，還用凌虐的方式剝奪人的行動自由，讓他們可以一而再、再而三的犯案，毫無畏懼，這個是我們現在面臨的狀況。","我想要跟次長交換意見的事情是，法律人在修法的時候，不是只有單純地看法定刑怎麼調，你要看最後刑事司法實踐的結果到底是什麼，以及最後刑事司法實踐的結果，對於刑法要達成的目的，不管你採取的是什麼理論，有沒有實際實踐刑法要達成的目的？次長覺得有嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們還是有積極地安排教育訓練，要求檢察官督促法院量刑的程序，以符合罪刑相當的原則。"],["黃委員國昌：你們什麼時候開始教育訓練，做這樣的督促？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個一直以來我們都……"],["黃委員國昌：一直以來都有嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：如果一直以來都有的話，請問這一件事怎麼發生的？這個是在做完教育訓練以後，還是做完教育訓練以前？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們的公訴訓練是常態性的訓練，一直都有在做。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這樣的現實沒有讓你警覺到，公訴常態性的訓練沒有發揮效果嗎？還是你認為有發揮效果？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們尊重法官的判決，我們只能努力。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣真的太消極了，如果到今天你站在這邊還是尊重法官的……"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：因為對立法者來講，我們要解決、要處理的問題非常的critical，現在一年以上七年以下搞出來是這個樣子。這樣實踐的結果，我老實跟次長報告，社會大眾沒有辦法接受，我也沒有辦法接受。那個不是立法委員是不是已經民粹地不斷調高刑度，而是我們看到實際實踐的結果，根本沒有辦法達到刑罰的功能。次長，你覺得我說的有沒有道理？"],["徐次長錫祥：委員講的有道理。"],["黃委員國昌：有道理，那我們接下來該怎麼辦？我們要提高法定刑嗎？還是繼續信賴法務部對於公訴檢察官所做的教育訓練？還是期待法官在量刑的時候，不會按照以前的方式，這樣繼續下去？我現在想要請教法務部跟司法院的是，如果這樣的結果，大家都沒有辦法接受，連您也沒有辦法接受，我們的solution、我們的解決方案是什麼？絕對不是在這邊說空話！"],["徐次長錫祥：對，這個檢察官要努力，法官這邊也應該有機會來做調整吧！"],["黃委員國昌：最後，因為時間的關係，這個案子到2022年收網的時候，第一波被抓了嘛！但他完全沒有在怕，沒有抓到他，他在臺中繼續幹，結果私刑拘禁，給人家上手銬、給人家上腳鐐。來，看一下，這個是法院最後判刑的結果，杜承哲宣告刑七個月，其他的六個月、六個月、四個月，全部易科罰金，等於是什麼？我把提供人頭帳戶的人用手銬腳鐐關起來，我所會付出的刑事處罰代價是多少錢？18萬到12萬。次長，這樣的結果，你可以接受嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們尊重法官的判決。"],["黃委員國昌：我們當然尊重法官的判決嘛！我的意思是，從執掌法務部的立場，我們在訴追不法犯罪的時候，這樣的結果你認為妥適嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們會繼續努力……"],["黃委員國昌：你要如何努力？我相信你一定會繼續努力，現在我的問題是你要如何努力？你要如何努力改變這一個讓非常多的人沒有辦法接受的結果？這是我的問題。講空話沒有辦法解決問題，現在我的問題，我不是懷疑你努力的決心，我在請教的是你要如何努力？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們現在對於私刑拘禁，也有加重處罰。"],["黃委員國昌：再往下，一模一樣。他後來被抓到的，到2023年，我剛剛所講私刑拘禁的那個案子，又32個加重詐欺罪，詐欺的金額超過2,200萬，32個加重詐欺罪，又多了32個被害人，每一個宣告刑一年四個月到一年一個月，宣告刑合計四十七年九個月，這個還沒有定執行刑，但我有一點沒有辦法想像，這個定執行刑以後，定出來會多少？因為按照我們目前給法官的裁量權，定的執行刑，法官只要判一年十一個月以上就合法了嘛！我說的對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：會不會發生跟之前把他養大的那個案子一樣，要定兩年的執行刑，雖然他總宣告刑加起來已經四十七年了，面對這樣的狀況，我們當然都尊重司法個案的判決，但問題是，當給法官這麼大的裁量權，最後裁量出來的結果，從刑罰的目的、從最後要抑制詐騙犯罪，全部都沒有辦法達成效果的話，我們是不是應該要深切地檢討反省我們接下來該怎麼辦？次長，贊不贊成？"],["徐次長錫祥：我贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：司法院贊不贊成？"],["李廳長釱任：就這方面，我們要繼續努力。"],["黃委員國昌：你們繼續努力，我希望告訴社會大眾你們要如何努力，我希望下一次我們再站在這邊，再討論相同問題的時候，我能夠聽到你們跟所有臺灣社會關心詐騙、痛恨詐騙的人講，法務部也好，司法院也好，要如何努力。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","接下來我們請謝衣鳯委員。謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員發言。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可不可以召委……"],["主席：我知道你們在想什麼，我認為不宜啦！因為我知道你們在想什麼啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們是希望讓大家……"],["主席：沒有，那就麻煩鍾佳濱委員發言，謝謝。","我跟你說，因為我知道你們在想什麼，我覺得我們就依照會議的順序來，其實我是真的給大家……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，我本來是想說讓他先，但是我發現他帶錯檔案了……你看看我的內容跟他的……"],["主席：我知道，但是我們會議要進行，我不能為了吳思瑤再做這種事情……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是為了吳思瑤，是我的PowerPoint、簡報帶錯了。"],["主席：不是，我跟你講，我真的很尊重你們，但是我知道你們要做什麼，所以麻煩你們現在就繼續開始。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你看，真的啦！真的，他們現在在傳輸新的檔案來。"],["主席：不是，可以麻煩你們現在就……不是，因為這個錯誤不能讓大家擔嘛！對不對？"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，但是報告召委，大家也可以休息一下下，3分鐘，我的檔案來……"],["主席：不要，我覺得就麻煩您繼續好了，不然你跟吳思瑤對調，你現在跟她聯絡一下，你跟吳思瑤對調，你現在跟她對調。"],["鍾委員佳濱：看他願不願意……"],["主席：對、對、對。不是，我跟你講，我怎麼會不知道大家心裡在想什麼，我這個人不喜歡搞一些那個啦，我比較喜歡大家就直球對決，該怎麼樣就怎麼樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我馬上問他可不可以。"],["主席：不是啦！大家都在搞一些有的沒有的，我覺得沒意思，要嘛就依照順序來，大家一切依照程序走。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為難免我們在跑場的時候有一些錯誤，我本來只是想說讓大家休息，並沒有什麼其他意思，現在我的助理也在努力地彌補……"],["主席：他不願意跟你換嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：他現在在開記者會，他也沒辦法過來，因為他知道我在他前面。馬上就好了，等他一下下，好不好？"],["主席：不是啦！我跟你講，我知道你們想要幹什麼，所以我覺得，我真的尊重每一個人的發言，當然我知道你們在想什麼，你不能因為你們這樣，就想要……整個大家都在等啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我才說嘛！讓大家也順便休息……"],["主席：沒有，我跟你講，就麻煩你現在開始啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我來問看看。"],["主席：麻煩你現在開始。鍾委員，你現在要開始，不然我開始計時了，真的！鍾委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以，可以，我馬上好了，真的。"],["主席：不是，你自己準備錯檔案的話，這個不能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我只是請你包涵。"],["主席：我跟你講，你這個已經差不多，而且我跟你說，我真的知道你們在想什麼啦！我真的知道你們在想什麼，所以可不可以麻煩你開始？好不好？不然你們每次都玩這一套。好啦！謝謝。","接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-26","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","王育敏","沈發惠","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","翁曉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135102_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員王育敏等21人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第八十條之一條文草案」案；二、繼續併案審查 (一)\n委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐巧芯\n等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第三百三十九條及第三百三十九條之四條文修正草案」案、(三)委員\n馬文君等17 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"end":616.244,"text":"體系我們的刑法體系為什麼會讓整個社會大眾看到的是我們對於不僅僅是詐騙犯還是組織犯罪裡面的成員還用凌虐的方式去剝奪人的行動自由讓他們可以一而再再而三的犯案毫無畏懼"},{"start":618.015,"end":640.686,"text":"毫無畏懼這個是我們現在所在面臨的狀況我想要跟次長交換意見的事情是說法律人在修法的時候不是只有單純的在看那個法定型怎麼調你要看最後刑事司法實踐的結果到底是什麼"},{"start":641.96,"end":651.802,"text":"以及最後這個刑事司法實現的結果對於我們刑法所要達成的目的不管你採取的是什麼理論"},{"start":653.618,"end":680.271,"text":"有沒有實際的實踐刑法所要達成的目的?市長你覺得有嗎?我們還是有積極的安排教育訓練來要求檢察官要督促法院良刑的程序以符合罪行相當的原則。你們什麼時候開始做教育訓練做這樣的督促?這個一直以來我們一直以來都有嘛那如果一直以來都有的話請問這件事怎麼發生的?"},{"start":681.298,"end":684.6,"text":"這是在做完教育訓練以後還是做完教育訓練以前?我們公宿訓練是常態性的訓練所以這樣的現實沒有讓你警覺到說你所謂的公宿常態性的訓練沒有發揮效果嗎?還是你認為有發揮效果?"},{"start":704.629,"end":731.79,"text":"我們尊重法官的判決我們只能努力了真的這樣真的太消極了啦如果到今天你站在這邊還是尊重法官的因為對於立法者來講我們要解決我們要處理的問題非常的critical現在一年以上七年以下搞出來是這個樣子嗎這樣的實踐的結果我老實跟次長報告社會大眾沒有辦法接受我也沒有辦法接受"},{"start":733.834,"end":748.591,"text":"那個不是立法委員是不是已經明確的在不斷調高刑度而是我們看到實際實踐的結果根本沒有辦法達到刑罰的功能嘛。次長你覺得我說的有沒有道理?"},{"start":749.717,"end":767.99,"text":"委員講的有道理那有道理那我們接下來該怎麼辦接下來該怎麼辦我們要提高法定刑嗎還是繼續信賴法務部對於公訴檢察官所做的教育訓練還是期待法官在量刑的時候"},{"start":769.147,"end":783.781,"text":"不會按照以前的方式這樣繼續下去我現在想要請教法務部跟司法院的是如果這樣的結果大家都沒有辦法接受連您也沒有辦法接受我們的solution我們的解決方案是什麼"},{"start":785.265,"end":788.649,"text":"來我最後齁時間的關係這個案子我說齁到2022年收網的時候第一波被抓了嘛但他完全沒有在怕"},{"start":806.823,"end":833.183,"text":"沒有抓到他他在台中繼續幹結果私刑拘禁給人家上手銬給人家上腳鐐來看一下這個是法院最後判刑的結果杜成哲宣告刑七個月其他的六個月六個月四個月全部一顆罰金那等於是什麼我把提供人頭暢戶的人用手銬腳鐐關起來我所會付出的刑事處罰的代價是多少錢18萬到12萬"},{"start":837.458,"end":857.939,"text":"市長這樣的結果你可以接受嗎我們尊重法官的判決我們當然尊重法官的判決嘛我的意思是從法務部執掌法務部我們在訴追不法犯罪的時候這樣的結果你認為妥適嗎我們會繼續努力"},{"start":862.148,"end":890.341,"text":"你要如何努力我相信你一定會繼續努力現在我的問題是你要如何努力你要如何努力改變這一個讓非常多的人沒有辦法接受的結果這是我的問題講空話沒有辦法解決問題啊現在我的問題我不是懷疑你努力的決心我在請教的是你要如何努力我們在我們現在也有對於施行激進的話也有加重處罰"},{"start":892.11,"end":904.938,"text":"再往下齁一模一樣他後來被抓到的到2023年我剛所講私刑拘禁的那個案子又三十二個加重詐欺罪"},{"start":907.003,"end":934.34,"text":"詐欺的金額超過兩千兩百萬三十二個加重詐欺罪喔又多了三十二個被害人每一個宣告刑一年四個月到一年一個月宣告刑合計四十七年九個月這個還沒有定執行刑啊但我有一點沒有辦法想像啊這個定執行刑以後定出來會多少因為按照我們目前給法官的裁量權法官只要判定的執行刑喔"},{"start":935.495,"end":952.961,"text":"只要在一年十一個月以上就合法了嗎我說的對不對是會不會發生跟之前把他養大的那個案子一樣要定兩年的執行刑雖然他總宣告刑加起來已經47年了面對這樣的狀況我們當然都尊重"},{"start":959.033,"end":985.623,"text":"司法個案的判決嗎但問題是當給法官這麼大的裁量權最後裁量出來的結果從刑罰的目的從最後要抑制詐騙犯罪全部都沒有辦法達成效果的話我們是不是應該要深切的檢討反省我們接下來該怎麼辦市長贊不贊成我贊成司法院"},{"start":986.561,"end":1006.954,"text":"響鐘?"},{"start":1008.1,"end":1008.12,"text":"韓國瑜"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}