{"error":false,"id":["153048"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153048,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153048","日期":"2024-05-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-27T12:22:53+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-27T12:29:10+08:00","影片長度":"00:06:17","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b392bc0e2964f074d0442d3172de404894954c766bbd88e2fec72e5195eda2e44e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:22:53 - 12:29:10","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":827,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時22分）謝謝昆澤召委，請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，第一次碰面，辛苦了，質詢到中午。部長上任之前接受滿多媒體的詢問，我覺得這是滿好的，跟媒體溝通，你提到有三支箭，第一支箭打詐，第二支箭數位韌性，第三支箭數位經濟。我看今天很多同仁都聚焦在打詐這方面，打詐專法也送到立法院了，打詐專法裡面有部分條文跟數發部相關，我認為數發部在討論之前應該有跟各個網路平臺溝通過，現在已經送到立法院的版本，它們的看法如何？有跟它們後續的協調嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：有，次長上個禮拜才跟它們開過會，請他補充說明。"],["李委員坤城：因為我認為專法裡面要求的還滿多的，第一個是落實實名制，它們在臺灣必須要有法律的代表，如果違反我們的規定會有罰鍰，最高可以到2,500萬元，甚至如果不聽的話，還有封網的規定。請教次長，它們對於我們即將推動的打詐專法的看法如何？"],["林次長宜敬：我們在上個禮拜跟幾個主要的跨國網路廣告平臺溝通。"],["李委員坤城：哪些公司？"],["林次長宜敬：Meta、Google和LINE。它們的態度算是相當配合，但是有幾件事情，第一，它們抱怨它們都是美國或日本的公司，所以它們要遵守當地母國的法律。我們也提醒它們，沒有錯，但是你們這些跨國公司到臺灣來做生意，你們就得遵守臺灣的法律。"],["李委員坤城：我們的打詐專法有違反它們母國的法令嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：應該是沒有。"],["李委員坤城：沒有嘛！"],["林次長宜敬：對！所以我們就希望它們配合。另外一件事情是它們抱怨如果要改程式的話，報給母國公司，母國公司的技術團隊做改變的話可能需要18個月等等。"],["李委員坤城：我認為這都是推託之詞。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["李委員坤城：實名制的部分，現在Google有採實名制了，是不是？網路廣告的部分，有沒有？投資廣告的部分？"],["呂署長正華：政治廣告的實名制已經在施行了，網路廣告的部分，打詐專法的第三十條就規範要用電子簽章、FIDO或相關的技術做調整。"],["李委員坤城：投信投顧法其實有要求廣告要採實名制。"],["呂署長正華：那是之前打詐五法的時候，但是它就介於兩者之間，讓你來投資、加入LINE，因為我們執行一段時間，以後這種我們覺得都應該要放進來，我們也會用實名制。"],["李委員坤城：Google網路投資廣告已經採實名制了啊！"],["呂署長正華：金管會管的那部分。"],["李委員坤城：現在你們管的部分，Google、臉書、LINE都沒有？"],["呂署長正華：我們現在用行政指導，因為實名制的法還在修，到時候要拜託委員多給我們指導。"],["李委員坤城：我們一定會支持，我的意思是說就算我們通過專法，它們還要18個月的時間嗎？"],["呂署長正華：我們次長就會有很多……"],["李委員坤城：我知道又是什麼喝咖啡，喝咖啡，速度會加快嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：我們有提醒Meta，臉書上面的政治廣告已經要實名制了……"],["李委員坤城：早就實名制了啊！"],["林次長宜敬：我們認為它們其實不用修改程式，至少不用大幅修改，只要把現有的機制從政治性廣告擴大到投資性廣告，只是把範圍擴大而已。"],["李委員坤城：所以技術上是可行的，如果專法通過之後，大概要求它們從18個月可以降到多久採實名制？"],["黃部長彥男：如果通過之後，就會要求它們配合，如果不配合，我們當然隨時可以罰它。"],["李委員坤城：如果這樣的話，應該不用18個月的時間吧！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["李委員坤城：最快要多久？"],["黃部長彥男：我們法通過之後馬上就可以進行，如果它們不配合打詐的話，我們當然就可以隨時開罰，看法什麼時候通過，我們就什麼時候做。"],["李委員坤城：最後的時間，我再問TikTok，前部長認為TikTok是一個危害的產品，部長的看法呢？"],["黃部長彥男：我也是一樣的看法，這個東西有太多假訊息在上面，我們確實應該處理。"],["李委員坤城：TikTok應該怎麼管理呢？"],["黃部長彥男：我前面有講過，第一個，打詐專法通過之後，我們要求它落地；不落地的話，我們就看美國，如果它在美國落地的話，我們就把TikTok連到美國的TikTok，就是用美國版的TikTok。"],["李委員坤城：在臺灣要落地管理嘛！有先跟它們溝通過了嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：這就是我們的法令，到時候它們一定要配合。"],["李委員坤城：打詐專法通過之後，TikTok也是要落地管理嘛！對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對，要有法律代表或落地。"],["李委員坤城：有關假訊息的管理委員會這部分呢？我看你說想成立一個假訊息管理委員會。"],["黃部長彥男：我們剛才講所謂訊息的真假更專業，例如衛福部就衛福部，農業部就農業部，但是如果有一些訊息的真假還是需要一個委員會來審核，這個我們會來進行，不是一個人或一個部會能夠決定，應該是需要委員會。"],["李委員坤城：好啦！下次再問，因為時間有限，主席也站起來了，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員發言完畢。","現在請張啓楷委員發言。張啓楷委員發言完畢後，我們休息30分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央政府總預\n算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案","agenda_id":"1135301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.5834687500000002,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.7134687500000005,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.51846875,"end":26.676593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.71034375,"end":57.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.625343750000006,"end":63.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.59909375,"end":96.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.12971875000001,"end":97.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.73721875000001,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.67346875000001,"end":101.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.41596875,"end":101.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.44971875,"end":107.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.17034375,"end":107.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.59221875,"end":108.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.03096875,"end":111.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.65909375000001,"end":111.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.70971875000001,"end":112.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.06409375000001,"end":132.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.65846875000001,"end":115.70909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.72596875,"end":115.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.10784375,"end":129.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.14971875,"end":135.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.97596875000002,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.02659375000002,"end":136.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.58346875,"end":138.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.10221875000002,"end":138.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.27096875,"end":138.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.28784375,"end":138.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.35534375,"end":138.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.40596875,"end":153.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.45846875,"end":163.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.44534375,"end":156.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.42721875,"end":165.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.70971875,"end":188.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.11409375000002,"end":170.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.19159375,"end":193.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.13596875000002,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.82784375,"end":194.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.90346875,"end":196.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.92034375,"end":205.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.21471875,"end":201.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.50971875000002,"end":204.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.28159375,"end":205.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.88909375,"end":206.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.26034375,"end":206.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.39534375000002,"end":210.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.53034375000001,"end":207.18846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.02346875,"end":212.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.55909375000002,"end":214.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.06909375,"end":215.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.48659375000003,"end":217.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.02221875,"end":218.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.78159375,"end":230.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.83221875,"end":219.42284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.60784375,"end":223.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.88159375,"end":227.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.02471875,"end":233.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.15909375,"end":236.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.06159375000001,"end":236.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.07846875,"end":236.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.85471875000002,"end":236.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.98971875,"end":237.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.09096875,"end":237.56346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.56346875000003,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.58034375000003,"end":237.96846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.61409375000002,"end":260.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.96846875000003,"end":238.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.17096875000001,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.96409375000002,"end":239.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.03971875000002,"end":241.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.29284375,"end":241.36034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.69721875000002,"end":246.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.97471875000002,"end":252.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.00846875000002,"end":252.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.36659375000002,"end":255.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.71659375,"end":258.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.32784375,"end":267.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.38159375000004,"end":269.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.49096875000004,"end":276.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.22846875,"end":275.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.78096875,"end":280.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.84784375000004,"end":281.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.94471875,"end":283.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.01221875000005,"end":282.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.18909375000004,"end":294.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":294.31409375000004,"end":302.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.46034375,"end":308.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.23596875000004,"end":308.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.53971875,"end":308.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.55659375000005,"end":308.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.57346875,"end":308.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.97846875000005,"end":310.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.76721875000004,"end":312.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.89346875,"end":327.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.16971875,"end":329.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.85284375000003,"end":329.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.98784375,"end":330.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.25784375,"end":334.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.08409375,"end":335.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.50596875,"end":337.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.64909375,"end":341.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.84284375000004,"end":340.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.19284375,"end":343.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":343.69034375,"end":346.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.30159375,"end":349.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":348.28034375000004,"end":351.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.77784375000005,"end":368.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.94846875,"end":366.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.45846875,"end":375.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.92659375000005,"end":371.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.77034375000005,"end":371.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.68159375000005,"end":373.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.59284375000004,"end":375.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.95534375,"end":376.42784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.321,"end":5.451,"text":"謝謝我們坤喆召委那也請我們黃部長請部長"},{"start":12.543,"end":38.058,"text":"委員好部長好第一次碰面辛苦了這個質詢到中午這個部長剛上任之前也接受蠻多的媒體的質詢詢問我覺得這是蠻好的跟媒體做一個溝通那你提到說這一個有三件有三支件第一支件打詐第二支件數位韌性第三支件是數位經濟那我看今天很多同仁都是聚焦在打詐這方面那我們這個打詐專法也送到立法院來了那打詐專法裡面"},{"start":39.439,"end":61.794,"text":"有部分條文是跟數位發展部有相關的那我請問一下就是說當然我認為數位發展部在這個討論之前應該是有跟這個各個網路平台有溝通過那現在這個已經送到立法院的版本那他們的看法是怎麼樣有跟他們在做後續的協調嗎有那個我們這個請市長因為上禮拜才跟他們開過會這樣子他可以再補充說明對"},{"start":63.655,"end":83.765,"text":"因為我們對於這個專法裡面這個要求的我認為是還蠻多的第一個就是說要這個落實實名制然後這個他們在台灣必須要有這個法律來代表然後呢那如果這個違反我們的規定的話我們有罰款最高是到2500萬然後呢這個那甚至如果說這個不聽的話我們還有這個封網應該類似封網的這個這個這個台灣的規定嘛那請教一下次長"},{"start":92.87,"end":96.336,"text":"他們對於這個我們即將推動的打轉專法他們的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":98.98,"end":125.211,"text":"我們在上個禮拜有跟幾個主要的跨國網路廣告平台我跟他們做溝通哪些公司就是Meta還有Google還有Line他們的態度事實上算是相當配合但是有幾件事情第一個他們抱怨說他們都是美國或日本的公司所以他們要遵守當地母國的法律那我們也提醒他們說"},{"start":125.851,"end":153.264,"text":"沒有錯,但是你們這些跨國公司到臺灣來做生意你們還就得遵守臺灣的法律嗎?而且我們的這個打造專法有違反他們在母國的法律嗎?應該是沒有沒有嗎?對所以這個我們就是希望他們配合然後另外一件事情是他們有在抱怨說那個他們如果要改程式的話必須報給母國公司然後母國的公司的技術團隊去做改變的話可能需要18個月等等"},{"start":153.704,"end":169.912,"text":"我認為這是推脫啦 是就是推脫之詞啦 是我問一下現在這個實名制實名制現在是Google有寫實名制了嘛是不是網路廣告的這部分有沒有投資廣告這部分的話因為我廣告齁政治廣告的這個實名制他們也在施行了對"},{"start":171.133,"end":195.915,"text":"網絡廣告的部分我們在打詐專法的第37條我們就規範說你這時候要用電子簽章或FIDO或相關合乎的技術來去做這樣的一個調整所以這個拜託委員到時候30條才對對不起30條是實名制的部分我們在這一個投信投過法裡面其實就要求你如果是廣告的話你就必須要採實名制那個是之前打詐無法的時候對但是因為這個"},{"start":196.596,"end":215.794,"text":"﹗"},{"start":216.756,"end":237.274,"text":"臉書、LINE都沒有目前就是因為他說這個要我們現在用行政指導的部分但是因為這個實名制因為法還在修嘛所以就到時候拜託委員多給我們指導這個我們一定會支持的那我意思是說就算我們通過之後他們還要18個月的時間嗎這個我們次長就會有我知道為什麼喝咖啡啊"},{"start":237.774,"end":266.629,"text":"喝咖啡速度會加快嗎?我們有提醒Meta就是說他們現在在Meta就是臉書上面的那個政治廣告已經要實名制了所以我們是認為說我們是認為說他們其實不用修改那個程式至少不用大幅修改只要把現有的機制把它從政治性廣告擴大到那個投資性的廣告上面只是把它範圍擴大一點對啊那所以這個技術上是可行的那如果這個專法通過之後這個大概要求他們"},{"start":268.029,"end":283.135,"text":"從18個月可以降到多少?可以採釋明智?那個如果我們那個通過之後他我們就可以他要求他配合對那如果不配合我們當然隨時可以罰他就不罰他對就不罰他對好那所以如果這樣子的話他們應該不用18個月的時間吧對那那這個就是那最快呢?最快要多久?"},{"start":284.472,"end":312.328,"text":"我們法通過之後馬上就可以進行那當然就是就是如果我們就是剛剛講就是他如果不配合我們打詐的話我們當然就可以隨時法那看這個法什麼時候通過我們什麼時候好那我再問TikTok最後的時間TikTok這個這個前部長他是認為說他是一個危害的產品那我問一下部長的看法勒那個我是我也是一樣的看法就是說這個東西有太多假訊息在上面了所以對確實是我們應該處理好那這個TikTok要如何管理勒"},{"start":312.912,"end":313.572,"text":"在台灣要落地管理嗎?"},{"start":313.572,"end":314.273,"text":"有跟他們先溝通過了嗎?"},{"start":335.597,"end":336.578,"text":"關於這個假訊息的管理委員會這部分"},{"start":347.349,"end":348.069,"text":"李坤城委員官員完畢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}