{"error":false,"id":["153059"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153059,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153059","日期":"2024-05-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-27T13:15:23+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-27T13:23:31+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:08","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/536b9eee2a0ea5b3aa22d5465852c1fc442d3172de404894954c766bbd88e2fe2615cb29b12c03265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:15:23 - 13:23:31","會議時間":"2024-05-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計11案。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":924,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時15分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，首先，邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。部長，你來自產業，而且實際操作過，也知道產業界的心聲，所以我們很歡喜，你是一個專業而且務實的部長，這是我首先給你的註解，所以我希望以你的專業協助政府指揮，我們的數位部到底要怎麼做？首先我要請問，你上任之後，公部門的個資外洩，要怎麼樣防堵？之前第一任的數位部長是唐鳳，你覺得你跟唐鳳先生就這個部長職務最重要的不同點在哪裡？"],["黃部長彥男：好，報告委員，我在媒體上講過有三支箭，那是針對現在政府最需要的工作來做馬上的處理。關於資安的部分，我覺得第一個當然是法規，我們會儘速推動資安法，比如說，資安署是資安的主管機關，能夠到各部會去做更深入的稽核跟資安演練，其實資安的外洩，我們看到有些部分都是因為資安的防護不夠好，那為什麼不夠好？是因為以前可能在稽核跟在一些資安的演練上，需要再加強，所以這個部分我們會加強。那當然這裡面有包括我們的一些措施，比如說我們有Zero Trust Architecture，就是零信任架構，這個也一定要推，政府雖然在講，可是我覺得這個要強化推動，如果我們能夠推動零信任架構，能夠像剛剛講的，就是用法規讓我們的資安署能夠做更擴大的稽核跟資安的演練，會讓我們資安做得更好，那這樣的話，個資被外洩的管道就會下降很多，這個是我希望的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你這麼回答，也就是本席剛剛向你提問的，您這位部長跟第一任的部長最大的不同點，可以解讀是剛剛你所說的這幾項嗎？也就是以往沒有做到，而且你們看到了這個問題，必須要去做。"],["黃部長彥男：其實也不能說以往沒做到，而是以往有這樣的一個目標，但是我這邊會深入再去推動。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以往有這個目標，但是就是沒做到，所以你現在接任下來要努力做，可以這麼解讀嘛？"],["黃部長彥男：對，過去有建了一些基礎，但是我覺得可以做更多。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，所以本席要告訴你，從2016年開始，我們看到包括中華郵政商城、勞動部發展署、銓敘部、戶政資料、健保署、華航會員資料庫都有個資外洩的問題，非常嚴重，一直到這兩年，我相信你在業界和媒體都有看到這個報導。你點頭了，但是網上有人兜售一千多萬筆全國人民的戶政資料，而且經過調查局確認，令人難過的答案是，這些是我國的戶政資料。還有讓我最憂心的是，我非常重視教育，還有兩萬筆臺灣學生的資料都外洩了，我們看到這個面向，我希望部長你好好加油，好好來推動，來做，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會把資安做好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來第二項本席要請教你媒體議價法，這個大家都說是務必要做的，是必要的，但是研議了三年多，第一任部長也說必要，研議了三年多，但是都沒有看到。你接任部長，你認為這個必不必要？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我剛上任，但是我對這個問題還是滿關心的，因為牽涉到所謂的copyright的問題，就是版權問題，雖然我同意委員說的，但是現在稍微有一點複雜，就是因為現在生成式AI出來以後，這個問題就變得很複雜，AI訓練的模型有同樣的問題，所以我們要一起處理，那怎麼處理呢？現在就是還要產生一個共識，著作鄰接權的問題是不是可以用這個方法來處理，或者是要立專法？這個還在討論中，我們希望能夠很快有一個共識。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你所謂的很快要多久？在第一任部長時是三年多，告訴我們是必要的，新聞有價的概念，我想大家統統都贊同，至於用什麼方式或新加入AI系統這樣的科技，部長你是專家，你認為你用多久時間可以研議出方案？不管是用所謂的專法還是任何的方式。"],["黃部長彥男：著作鄰接權就是我們已經開了八、九次會議在討論的，好像在對這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你預估大概多久時間？"],["黃部長彥男：我想請署長再……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來，告訴我們，大概多久時間可以告訴我們你的方案？"],["呂署長正華：行政院裡有政委在開這個會，之前我們部裡……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：三年多還沒看到。"],["呂署長正華：因為各方有不同的看法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，告訴我一個大約的時間。"],["呂署長正華：因為部要去行政院那邊，和各部會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請告訴我時間，因為時間的關係，請告訴我大概要多久時間。"],["呂署長正華：這個研議的部分，部長來，我們就馬上跟他報告了，因為我們只是部而已，這個要行政院來統籌各方的意見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們自己預定的KPI的時間點在哪裡？"],["呂署長正華：這個要凝聚大家的共識，因為現在意見很分岐。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：過程我們先不談，你自己研議一個方案已經三年多了，你總是有一個你希望的KPI的時間點嘛，要多久？"],["呂署長正華：因為過去都要去行政院開會，開完會才有時程。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在也是一樣，你大概要多久？因為這是延續性的嘛。"],["呂署長正華：跟委員報告，我們幕僚準備了各種方案，其實上個月在前面的內閣時也到行政院去討論過，但是都沒有做政策的決定，現在新內閣上任才一個禮拜，所以要給我們一些時間，然後這些都要跨部會去討論，在這段時間可能沒有辦法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，本席還是希望你去盤點。"],["黃部長彥男：好，我去瞭解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為已經在第一任部長時研議了三年多，你們告訴我們很重要，但是沒有答案，我們希望你去盤點。"],["黃部長彥男：好，我去瞭解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：辛苦了。加油，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，這一個「點麵線」的打詐成效到底是多少？因為越打越詐。我看到你在受訪時說你要成立一個打詐通報查詢網，是不是？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是你要成立的嘛？"],["黃部長彥男：已經在準備中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們看到很高興，因為現在有國家隊、打詐隊、打詐四法，越多方案出來，面對的問題越多，所以我們看到你說要建立打詐通報查詢網，覺得這個idea不錯。你現在準備中，大概要多久？你的預估呢？"],["黃部長彥男：這個問題，因為是林次長在負責這個查詢網，所以我請他說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你預估大概多久可以告訴社會大眾？"],["林次長宜敬：我們正在努力，希望三個月之內有第一版的系統能上線，但是也必須跟委員報告，第一版的功能可能會比較限縮，我們主要是集中在名人身分被冒用的詐騙廣告，還有假冒政府訊息……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，有了一個開頭就很好，所以結論就是說，行政院已經通過打詐專法，在整個執行過程當中，民眾要怎麼樣能夠安心，這非常重要，所以三個月內，你們第一批的打詐通報查詢網會出來？"],["黃部長彥男：對，會上線。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：出來的時候，我們也希望你們好好的宣傳，讓民眾可以運用得到，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","現在請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","廖先翔","林國成","林俊憲","林沛祥","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳素月","何欣純","蔡其昌","許智傑","邱若華","黃健豪","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","黃珊珊","洪孟楷","游顥","林月琴","李坤城","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-05-27"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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TRUST ARCHITECTURE就是零信任架構這個一定要推這個政府雖然在講可是我覺得這個要強化推動如果我們能夠推動零信任架構能夠剛剛講就是用法規讓我們資安署能夠做更擴大的集合跟資安的演練會讓我們資安做得更好"},{"start":118.317,"end":146.499,"text":"那這樣的話各自被外洩的管道就會下降很多你這麼回答也就是本席剛剛給你提問的您這任部長跟第一任的部長最大的不同點可以解讀是剛剛你所說的這幾項嗎?也就是以往沒有做到而且我們看到了這個問題必須要去做對也不能說以往沒做到就是說以往有這樣的一個目標但是我這邊會深入再去推動"},{"start":147.139,"end":175.328,"text":"希望有這個目標但是就是沒做到所以你現在堅韌下來要努力做可以這麼解讀嗎?所以本席要告訴你從2016年開始我們看到包括中華郵政商城勞動部發展署權序部戶政資料這個非常的嚴重建保署華航會員資料庫都有各自外洩的這個問題"},{"start":176.528,"end":191.282,"text":"一直到這兩年當然我相信你在業界媒體你都看到這個報導你點頭了但是案碗上面有人在多收千多萬筆的全國人民的戶政資料而且經過大局確認"},{"start":192.585,"end":194.707,"text":"第二項本席要請教你媒體溢價法"},{"start":219.466,"end":230.167,"text":"這是大家都說都務必必要的都是必要的那但是必要呢那研議了三年多第一任的部長也說必要研議了三年多但都沒看到"},{"start":231.175,"end":253.556,"text":"你上任的部長,你認為這必不必要?報告委員,我剛上任,但我對這問題還是蠻關心,因為牽涉到所謂copyright的問題嘛。那同意,但是現在就是說有稍微有點複雜,就是因為現在生成是AI,AI出來後,這個問題又變得複雜,就是說AI的訓練的模型,它一樣有同樣的問題。"},{"start":254.036,"end":274.667,"text":"議員﹗"},{"start":274.767,"end":294.401,"text":"那因為呢新聞有價的概念我想大家都都都都贊同的那至於方式以及新加入的AI系統這樣子的一個科技出來那部長你是專家你認為你多久時間可以去研議出方案出來不管所謂的專法還是任何的方式這個就是我們已經開了8、9次會議好像在對這個你預估大概多久時間那我想再請署長再補"},{"start":300.225,"end":306.689,"text":"告訴我們大概多久時間可以告訴我們你的方案草案知道人員的3年多還沒看到沒關係告訴我一個大約時間點對請告訴我時間因為時間的關係"},{"start":318.957,"end":343.462,"text":"請告訴我你大約多久時間?這原意來報復你們部長來我們就順便報告去行政院因為我們在報名這行政院要統籌各方的意見那你們自己預定的KPI的時間點在哪裡?因為這個要凝聚大家的共識因為現在很公開很分歧過程我們宣布你自己你要原意一個方案已經3年多你總是有一個你希望的KPI的時間點嗎?"},{"start":346.243,"end":370.639,"text":"因為過去都是行政院開封鎖現在也是一樣你大概要多久因為你延續性的嘛跟委員報告我如果幕僚準備各種方案其實之前大概上個月在前面的內閣的部分也到行政院去討論過但是沒做這個政策的決定所以現在新內閣才一百年所以給我們一些時間然後這個都要跨部會去討論部長你再回主席來部長"},{"start":374.401,"end":393.788,"text":"本席還是希望你去盤點好不好因為你已經第一任三年多告訴我們很重要但是沒有答案我們希望你去盤點辛苦加油好不好最後一個議題我給你因為大家都知道這個點面線的打造成效到底是多少因為越打越炸"},{"start":398.63,"end":419.935,"text":"現在你說我看到你受訪你說你要成立一個打詐通報查詢網是不是對這是你要成立的嗎已經在準備中對準備中齁我們看到很高興因為現在所有的國家隊打架隊打詐司法什麼的越多方案出來面對的問題越多"},{"start":421.914,"end":436.949,"text":"所以我們有看到你說打詐通報查詢網這個idea不錯你現在準備中大概多久這個我請林市長在負責這個查詢網請他說明你一國來你一國大概多久可以告訴社會大眾"},{"start":438.695,"end":439.216,"text":"對。假冒沒人。對。對。"},{"start":459.295,"end":484.908,"text":"對有了一個開頭就很好所以一個結論就是說那個行政院已經通過打詐專訪那在整個執行過程當中民眾要怎麼樣能夠安心這非常重要所以3個月內你們第一批的這個打詐通報查詢網會上線會出來到時候出來的時候我們也希望好好的宣傳讓民眾可以運用的到好不好好謝謝楊瓊瓔委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}