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空之防範作業指引及工程高空作業障礙防範指引。中央地方建設協調會報協助解決縣市與中央之間的問題順利解決進行。"},{"start":2519.244,"end":2542.465,"text":"在其他相關業務方面,我們落實公共工程設計建造施工,那麼必須依前走來執行,協助工程產業擴展海外的市場。有關於113年預算編列情形,接下來向各位做報告。稅日部分,"},{"start":2543.393,"end":2547.44,"text":"稟賄113年度預算案稅日編列47859000元,較112年度預算增累118000元。主要來源如下。"},{"start":2558.031,"end":2567.86,"text":"罰款及賠償收入44萬元。規會收入4517萬6千元。其他收入222萬3千元。稅出部分,秉會113年度預算稅出編列4億9635萬6千元。較112年度預算增累2422萬元。"},{"start":2586.892,"end":2598.767,"text":"主要編列內容如下一般行政主要為人事會一般行政業務會等基本維持費用編列3億3771萬1千元公共工程企劃及法規業務"},{"start":2605.424,"end":2609.866,"text":"公共工程技術業務公共工程管理業務第一倍金"},{"start":2626.175,"end":2652.026,"text":"公共工程之推動與民眾扶植息息相關,稟會持續協助各機關,讓公共工程順利推動,並讓品質提升。稟會所編列之113年度預算案,需橫著施政計畫之輕重反舉何時編列,敬請指席及各位委員鼎力協助並給予指教。謝謝。"},{"start":2661.396,"end":2687.246,"text":"好,謝謝吳主委。請問各位委員對伊之路有沒有意見?有啦,他剛剛在理財。沒有意見哈,伊之路確定。好,現在進行公共工程委員會業務報告及預算審查詢問。先宣告以下事項。詢問時間,初期委員5加1分鐘,立即委員4加1分鐘。"},{"start":2690.325,"end":2719.657,"text":"委員發言登記截止10點30分截止。各委員如果有提案請在10點前提出來,以便醫生院會診。暫定10點30分休息10分鐘。中午原則上不休息。再請登記第一位洪孟凱委員發言。主席謝謝,麻煩請吳澤成主委。好,吳主委請。"},{"start":2727.55,"end":2748.666,"text":"各位好,這幾年各地天坑地積的掏空事件不斷,尤其9月大直發生了建案開挖而房屋倒塌,讓國人觸目驚心。當時行政院有則成工程會要一個月內來檢討改善,尤其是針對這樣的一個坍塌事件,能夠來做一個釐清。請教現在開會的狀況如何?"},{"start":2752.059,"end":2774.856,"text":"謝謝馮委員的指教對於這個部分經過院長指示那麼秉會也主動前盤的做盤點檢討現在已經訂出高空作業跟我們公共工程地下作業還有建案的相關規定的作業指引已經通行各機關這個指引跟以前有什麼最大不同"},{"start":2775.516,"end":2792.754,"text":"有沒有看到哪裡有缺失就是在這一次開會之後找出了缺失那要求改進的地方?我們檢討結果呢我們認為所有的法令跟專業其實都存在也都有但是呢我們現在最大的差異就是在"},{"start":2794.522,"end":2816.33,"text":"這個建案在進行當中,那麼各自為政,比方說前面的地質狀態,設計、建造到廠商,這個地方沒有一個串聯,沒有組成一個合作的一個前後勾結的一個團隊去做確認,比方說這一次大使的案,已經發現他的異常狀態,卻沒有去做一個處置。"},{"start":2820.852,"end":2835.163,"text":"所以主委我請教因為每一個比較重大的建案或是工程案都會有設計建造嗎?對。所以換言之你這樣講是設計建造在這個過程當中沒有好好的做品質的控管?"},{"start":2835.902,"end":2864.951,"text":"包括到施工是不是整個沒有一個整合一個團隊前後做過所以就是說我們各階段的法令規定相關都已經有存在其實我們的規定如果說都照不走啦應該是都沒問題但是在這個過程就是說環節跟環節的銜接裡面他沒有確實的做交接而應該要設計監照去看整個案件的監照單位又沒有好好的去督促"},{"start":2865.413,"end":2893.303,"text":"所以才造成這次這個房屋倒塌。對,我這邊也跟委員說明一下,譬如公共工程,他在公共工程主辦機關,他對一件工程的這個處理,他會有一個主政整合的這個一個機制。他會把設計、建造還有這個施工,會不時的在那邊做檢討。對。這個機制很重要。所以我們很想把這個部分能夠推廣到民間工程去。"},{"start":2893.843,"end":2913.815,"text":"我想這樣會讓他更發揮。是主委那這樣子設計建造在這樣的一個事件裡面可能要負相對大的責任。那我們有沒有針對這個部分來之後做加強跟要求。有。我們就在主委裡面將來我們後續還會來協調那個內政部透過建築法以及營造業法相關規定來落實剛剛講這個部分。"},{"start":2916.937,"end":2936.355,"text":"但是重點還是在於是責任的給予啊。不要說因為我們常講其實從過去幾個重大公安事故啊。如果說設計建造能夠發揮一定的成效的話就不會讓下面的施工單位這個胡亂施工嗎?或說沒有依照相關的工地的指引來去做施工嗎?"},{"start":2937.817,"end":2950.806,"text":"那這樣子到底他們的責任我們可以要求到什麼程度?其實他的應盡的責任跟應辦事項在相關法令規定都非常清楚這個沒有疑問但是呢他他就是"},{"start":2953.424,"end":2954.325,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案計6案。"},{"start":2968.613,"end":2985.434,"text":"對不對,然後監照者他也要去確認,後面要確認前面的,然後要互相勾替。所以主委本席還是認為啊,人總是會有這種怠惰的個性,或說人如果說沒有在監控的話,可能他就會想說貪小便宜或是逃過心的鬼。"},{"start":2985.894,"end":3002.337,"text":"那我們為什麼要訂立相關的法令而且是要嚴刑峻法其實某種程度上就避免這種僥倖的心理。酒駕是僥倖心理。一樣這種設計建造如果說他可能沒有落實也是僥倖心理就是說不一定查得到我"},{"start":3002.837,"end":3019.195,"text":"我反正我趕快做完趕快領錢趕快結案所以這都是僥倖心理造成我覺得這心態的部分公共工程委員會既然是身為我們中央主管機關而且是上位機關就應該要想出辦法怎麼樣去讓這種僥倖心理能夠更免除"},{"start":3021.584,"end":3029.43,"text":"一個是僥倖,一個是我以為你會做,你以為我會做,結果中間產生縫隙。所以我們很強調這個連結性很重要。我們會來,這方面會來強化。"},{"start":3034.07,"end":3061.48,"text":"好,所以是不是可以再給我們本席更具體到底強化你們要怎麼做?既然你剛剛已經點到這兩點了本席認同一個是僥倖心理我們要防止一個是認為說各自為政本位主義所造成的一個漏洞跟盲點那具體要怎麼做?是不是能夠一個禮拜內給本席相關資料?你們到底要怎麼做?好不好?好,那再來一個部分是最近我們有看到說"},{"start":3062.981,"end":3066.463,"text":"告知要引進印度勞工及10萬名印度移工引進台灣。"},{"start":3079.412,"end":3079.732,"text":"此外找不到工人。"},{"start":3103.308,"end":3128.639,"text":"那好像最近這段時間都是看到勞動部出來綁子彈那主委是不是講一下到底我們台灣現在有沒有面臨這樣的狀況一定要引進或不引進勞工的引進國家這個是由勞動部在負責統籌規劃但是我們有沒有需要那在公共在營建工程方面其實目前的營造業的方面"},{"start":3129.599,"end":3148.695,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":3148.775,"end":3176.295,"text":"第二個我們工程會也對於不是能夠主要依賴外勞對於貶勞跟技術還要去精進這方面我們也是從技術方面希望做到預柱化讓他的這一個現場工作盡量的這個減少。是啊主委你這些講的都是我們這個正面宣導概念我現在就直接問說我們現在有傳出說要印度引進10萬名的印度移工"},{"start":3177.196,"end":3200.278,"text":"那馬上就會有人講是說我們有需要那麼多嗎?一方面講說有沒有需要那麼多?一方面講是說如果10萬名進來之後有可能造成相關的後續的問題,包括低薪問題,包括說我們長期也有存在一些這種種族歧視等等相關。這個都是如果說真的要引進就會有面臨到這些問題,但是追根究底,現在我們到底有需要嗎?"},{"start":3201.967,"end":3220.521,"text":"我應該這樣子說明整個勞動的勞工的政策是勞動部的權責那你要問我是對於這個整體的看法我個人應該還是要從國內的第一個需求到底怎麼樣對那國內到底有沒有需求"},{"start":3221.561,"end":3223.603,"text":"那我們到底有多少的缺口?"},{"start":3243.481,"end":3251.728,"text":"總體來講總體來講就是在勞動部這邊在掌握那就營造業來講我覺得目前我們是覺得還可以我們國家最近這幾年的重大工程"},{"start":3252.808,"end":3279.443,"text":"需求量夠不夠?工人。你講營建工程方面嗎?對。就關國家的工人,不要講民間企業,不要講說可能有哪一些科技廠商他們建廠,所以說把工人都引進,這先不講。關我們自己國家重大工程,不管是造橋、鋪路、蓋新的這些重大建設,我們到目前為止留票的狀況,是不是也都還是有缺工的狀況?我覺得目前應該還可以因應目前的需要。"},{"start":3281.213,"end":3296.399,"text":"主委你這樣講的話那應該是我們接下來所有的公共工程都不應該留標囉本時就先講是說光我的選區有一個三支圖書館阿現在留標就留標了4次6500萬沒人要來標現在追加到"},{"start":3299.52,"end":3323.586,"text":"一千追加了一千多萬變成八千多萬才要公開審閱明年二月再招標但是現在承辦人也告訴我們說即便是多增加了一千多萬快兩千萬他們也很擔心標不出去啊流標因素不一定只有缺工問題還有很多的因素包括它的價格合不合理設計合不合理都有都有都有一些相關的可能"},{"start":3323.826,"end":3351.28,"text":"主委但是這個圖書館相對來講設計應該沒有那麼的複雜價格如果大家都可以將本求利去算那個到底多少錢所以我現在本席我沒有要挖洞給你跳主委不用那麼的保守但是本席只是看到因為我覺得10萬名的移工其實我衍生的問題我直指問題核心啦我會擔心的是說因為已經看到有些影片上面有人也在講是說這10萬名的移工來可能會造成後續的治安問題等等"},{"start":3352.461,"end":3370.893,"text":"那也有人講是說如果不開放再多增加專案的外勞的話臺灣公共工程這兩三年會停滯非常嚴重這已經不是說哪一個政黨執政的問題因為建設不分藍綠所以我現在才請教你比較上位尤其你又是管全國的公共工程我們要確定說到底有沒有需求"},{"start":3371.613,"end":3373.075,"text":"我相信勞動部他應該有掌握全面需求他才會做這個政策。"},{"start":3390.188,"end":3408.256,"text":"那我現在說明的是營造業的部分其實勞動部是供給方啊照理講你才是需求方你是公共工程嘛你是需求方需要那麼多的勞工來做所以你應該是告訴我們說你的需求有多少勞動部要來補足你的需求勞動部協調本勞如果本勞不夠勞動部引進外勞"},{"start":3412.438,"end":3414.64,"text":"但是目前10萬個印度外勞移工他們是希望是用作營造嗎?"},{"start":3428.979,"end":3445.125,"text":"他們不是看護他們不是其他的啊我營造的部分以原來才4000個外勞現在已經引進到將近2萬1萬多個外勞應該目前來看是還可以夠的啊主委好是不是也給本市一個資料"},{"start":3445.945,"end":3473.545,"text":"告訴我們說現在我們目前你掌握因為我之前我記得之前你都有定期開會我們現在重大工程的一個追蹤管考進度那給本席這個資料可以吧就目前到底有哪些重大工程留標幾次那現在辦理什麼樣的一個進度至少也讓我們國人知道我們公共工程委員會持續都有在監控國家的重大工程建設好不好可以好謝謝主委好謝謝好謝謝紅木可委員"},{"start":3476.215,"end":3487.257,"text":"下一位請李昆哲委員發言謝謝主席,請一下吳主委吳主委請"},{"start":3495.273,"end":3511.953,"text":"委員你好主委你好每一次的公共工程委員會的質詢在委員會一再的提醒督促公共工程委員會必須針對職災對於勞工的保護必須要提出更具體有效的一個作為"},{"start":3512.914,"end":3527.468,"text":"這是我對公共工程委員會一個最基本的期待公共工程委員會除了公共工程的品質以及完成之外最重要在整個過程之中對勞工的保護必須要作為國家的一個典範"},{"start":3528.769,"end":3556.054,"text":"我們來看2022年有關於勞動部職安署所做的一個全國職災的一個統計那全國這樣的一個職災的死亡啊竟然達到320人這是近5年來最高那其中營建業達到156人佔了48.7%當然這是全國所有的職災那公共工程也是在裡面的一環"},{"start":3557.074,"end":3566.481,"text":"那2022年職業這種職災啊造成的失能傷害的人次啊累計達到一萬三千人。"},{"start":3567.625,"end":3593.491,"text":"2018到2022年就是說施冷的一個傷害頻率由1.27提升到1.49當然主委也知道重大職障的類型裡面墜落跟滾落佔了48%就是說重大職障的原因我們來看就是不安全的設備或者是動作造成離家的人數其實達到96%"},{"start":3596.547,"end":3625.354,"text":"那其實公共工程委員會我們的公共工程絕大部分就是陸海空的交通建設或者是相關的管線的一個建設的工作那這樣的工作其實是屬於營建類就是屬於最危險的這樣的一個工作的類型那我不曉得主委一再督促你們我們看到公共工程違反治安法第6條"},{"start":3627.486,"end":3643.086,"text":"二零二二年達到一萬七千一百六十九件這是公共工程。然後呢二零二三年一月到十月違反治安法已經達到一萬兩千八百四十五件。"},{"start":3644.264,"end":3664.332,"text":"那樣態還是集中於違反這個第6條就是沒有符合規定的必要安全設備與措施或者是違反23條沒有訂定職業安全衛生的管理計畫也沒有設置安全衛生管理及自動的檢查人員"},{"start":3666.496,"end":3688.873,"text":"主委我再提醒你我們重大職災今年9月到9月為止公共工程重大的職災已經有21件而且造成離災的人數有22名到9月為止主委我們公共工程委員會嚴重的失職沒有辦法去保護勞工來說明一下"},{"start":3690.884,"end":3710.877,"text":"我對李委員一直以來都在關心職安的問題,這點我非常的佩服。那麼秉會也一直以來都很重視這個問題,比方說像我們的相關的金子獎等等,把職災問題列為第一個考量,一旦有發生我們就不容許他能夠來得獎。"},{"start":3712.498,"end":3731.133,"text":"那麼在平時方面也一再列為查核跟要求但是沒有具體的成效啊你還是造成重大職障21件你還是造成今年到9月為止已經造成22名的公共工程的這樣的一個勞工啊失去性命"},{"start":3732.895,"end":3736.617,"text":"所以這個部分剛剛我講說沒有辦法讓這樣的一個成效能夠來這個這個這個降低下來我們也覺得很遺憾喔。"},{"start":3750.843,"end":3768,"text":"議案是什麼嗎?你們能夠做的改進是什麼?如果要我們來講的話就是在執行機關在進行工程這個施工的時候沒有進到這個應該執案法規定的應該辦理的時間。我認為還是要嚴懲啊。純粹僥倖的心態。還是要嚴懲我們來看啊公共工程的這個資安啊必須要加強。"},{"start":3774.767,"end":3792.314,"text":"我們看公共工程最違反的、最常違反的類型與重大職障的主因、不安全的動作或設備其實有高度的關聯。那我們公共工程施工查核常見的缺失統計也凸顯這個工程的現場危險不合法規的情況屢見不鮮。"},{"start":3798.783,"end":3825.488,"text":"一直沒有辦法去處理一直沒有辦法有明顯的改善那公共工程委員會我認為是嚴重失職我再一次的這樣嚴肅的強調我們會來強化這方面的這個我必須具體要求公共工程委員會應該針對公共工程必須確保勞工要受完整的職安訓練這個是最基本的"},{"start":3826.397,"end":3847.098,"text":"另外要要求僱主依法訂立職安的管理計畫。另外要加強對公安的這樣的一個現場的安全性考核。來主委說明一下。這個部分我們會來把它列為將來在工地的查核或進度的要求上面第一個所要的工作。這個是"},{"start":3850.034,"end":3866.75,"text":"提出具體的一個計畫然後具體的時程以及改善的一個目標我們能降低多少職災降低多少這樣的一個失能甚至是失去生命每一個勞工都是每一個家庭的重要的一個靠山"},{"start":3867.651,"end":3886.223,"text":"我將會把相關的廠商跟機關列入管控統計來要求的對象。現在公部門啊,面對治安的這樣的一個威脅,我們看民間啊,民間當然要各自加強他們的治安的防護,政府也應該要提供協助。那政府部門啊,"},{"start":3887.384,"end":3887.604,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":3902.674,"end":3919.386,"text":"另外我們面對資安的供給威脅是非常的大。近三年政府部門的資安事件遭受供給也逐年的增加。然後資安的威脅類型當然有掃描刺探類以及"},{"start":3920.066,"end":3925.808,"text":"閱讀委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3946.897,"end":3969.024,"text":"那其實我們來了解問題就是說資安採購面對兩大難題就政府的採購類型多元那資通安全的採購它涉及高度的專業對不對但是採購人員未必具有資通安全的相關背景那導致我們採購的資安的服務或者是產品沒有辦法達到資安的需求"},{"start":3969.904,"end":3997.485,"text":"那資安採購的爭議就是需求者跟資訊設計的專業領域是不同的那提出的需求跟設計的方機與專業所設計的軟體最後啊常常不符合這個彼此的需要來左右準章說明謝謝委員的指教那對於我們資安的採購方面我們做了兩個事情就資安委員這邊資料所呈現的一個是資安一個是採購的爭議的部分"},{"start":3999.887,"end":4023.087,"text":"那治安的部分呢我們協同這個資訊這個這個數位部那麼來訂定這些指引跟相關規定也已經到各個地方政府到各個機關去做說明那麼讓他們了解怎麼樣防範資訊安全的這個作業另外採購爭議方面就剛剛委員所提到的其實採購的這個爭議在資訊方面是在"},{"start":4026.596,"end":4054.275,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4054.355,"end":4061.426,"text":"那優化機關與業者的締約,就是說我們要援引敏捷式的開發合約的一個範本。"},{"start":4063.079,"end":4083.321,"text":"二、確保合約在固定時間、固定的成本下進行,但是要保有工作範圍的靈活與彈性,為現金軟體開發常見的一個締約方式。另外就是將相關措施提升位階,就是要修正政府採購法。"},{"start":4084.562,"end":4107.199,"text":"那這次的工程會公布的作業指引其實是類似行政命令的做法而已那並沒有強制的一個強制力這個部分還是要修改相關的政府採購法另外也要相關措施提升它的一個位階就是提升採購人員的一個資安的專業我還是要強調"},{"start":4109.042,"end":4134.52,"text":"公共工程委員會對於資安的相關的這些採購的處理有比過去稍微進步一點點但是呢他仍然還是一個過渡的措施還是要有一個更精進更完善的一個處理主委最後讓你說謝謝委員提出現在一個具體的建議跟看法我們會按照這個方向納入來考量讓他更精進更安全更沒有爭議這個要"},{"start":4137.199,"end":4138.92,"text":"謝謝主席,邀請吳主委。好,主委請。"},{"start":4172.93,"end":4179.597,"text":"謝謝主委,今天是我對你最後一次的質詢,倍感珍惜。"},{"start":4181.437,"end":4204.664,"text":"事事然料所謂租行無常租法無我想不到我比你早畢業我們都來自宜蘭主委2017年就任到現在6年多了都在工作崗位上戰戰兢兢事實上我也是一樣每天一大早從宜蘭趕來台北立法院"},{"start":4207.116,"end":4208.317,"text":"議員會主任委員吳澤成列席報告案計6案。"},{"start":4220.851,"end":4246.403,"text":"在你上任之初第一次蘇院長總書詢的時候我就建議蘇院長應該針對中央跟地方一些重大的建設設置協調匯報的機制當時陳某蘇院長一口就答應了那會後委指定你來負責宜蘭縣的中央地方建設匯報協調"},{"start":4248.615,"end":4277.42,"text":"我算了一下你總共召開這個匯報召開33次可以講說這幾年來宜蘭縣重大建設都沒有延宕都不是因為人的因素延宕那我們一起合作推動很多事情這中間包括地方事實上這個學校匯報不只是重大建設連小市一個人事的一個"},{"start":4279.56,"end":4301.572,"text":"這個組織的調整,或者是小製濃水路的改善,醫院新政府都提出來。等於說相當程度我們中央協助醫院新政府推動很多建設。那因為很多重大建設我都有列管的習慣。那主委在總主席的時候也聽到我拿了這個表。"},{"start":4304.407,"end":4328.835,"text":"這個表是我從去年開始列管總共15項有關在執行或未來即將要執行推動的一個一連線的重大建設那我們在去年就開始列管我記得在今年3月1號我們交通委員會就安排去看這些重大建設然後在6月份的時候"},{"start":4330.452,"end":4349.804,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4350.111,"end":4351.392,"text":"議員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":4366.425,"end":4383.845,"text":"一點一滴啦,我這裡也沒辦法很詳細來講。總是在宜蘭這方面我們感謝主委大力來推動,這個讓我很感動。如果沒有宜蘭縣、沒有我們公共工程委員會主委這樣計細米餘,"},{"start":4386.54,"end":4415.278,"text":"而且非常有效率的督導來推動我相信這些工作沒有辦法那麼順利那我們一起能夠在這裡合作6年那我覺得這個已有榮焉啦藉這個地方感謝代表一連線鄉親感謝你那今年4月的時候我在這裡有執行這個諸委有關於清水大甲門跟楊一楊大復一二期工程一再的流標"},{"start":4416.892,"end":4442.801,"text":"我們很擔心,我們經過一代努力,今年這兩項重大建設終於在今年9月都順利的發包出去了。我在這裡特別表示感謝,所以這個等於階段性的一個動工完成是我一個目標。我這裡提到五年七千億,我這裡列管了,我這七千億為什麼五年從今年開始算?"},{"start":4444.117,"end":4460.933,"text":"到未來4年,大概這7000例會發包、會動工的案子。這個不是我的承諾,是政府對人民的承諾。我是深為民代表要求來執行。所以謝謝主委,希望主委以後繼續來督導、推動。"},{"start":4467.779,"end":4495.606,"text":"那我從很多書面上的資料看起來這個因為疫情物價波動這個人力短缺讓很多工程飆不出去那我在這裡也希望說這個工程會也能夠密切掌握這個原物料的價格然後呢督辦督導一些主辦單位能夠更省慎訂定這個招標的企業這個我想很重要就是說這個"},{"start":4497.586,"end":4525.458,"text":"不但要能夠有適時的調控物價、掌握物價的一個變動,而且能夠何時來編列預算,或者一再的話等於說在追加預算或者是在變更,那個行政程式是比你重新做一次還難得麻煩。我們楊道副業12年來終於完成了,就是因為當時,"},{"start":4527.148,"end":4549.746,"text":"沒有處理好,延宕12年。所以這個是蠻令人遺憾的事情。我說很多事情我們真的是要...既然是政府,就是要未雨綢繆,為人民之先嘛。所以我在這裡,我在想說這個...我提醒就好了,因為時間的關係啦。這個很多這個順利結標的經費比這個...這個..."},{"start":4559.272,"end":4577.487,"text":"這個經費都比原來多很多。那兩次以上流標的案件也比這個重新標出去的多。這個要改善。然後我看了一下這個110年度這個"},{"start":4584.993,"end":4598.566,"text":"兩次流標佔五分之一,到111年,主委我們流標佔兩次流標以上佔三分之一。110年是五分之一,111年是佔三分之一,我自己就有表。"},{"start":4609.311,"end":4623.295,"text":"所以這個就是流標不斷流流標所以要核實來編列預算掌握這個物價的調整第二點就是說我們這個公共工程採購案招標的次數你看一下111年度這個"},{"start":4628.061,"end":4629.402,"text":"三次以上結標案主委員增加。"},{"start":4655.236,"end":4682.913,"text":"主委一再宣示說疫情之後這個比疫情的時候好很多事實上這個我們在今年8月份也有針對營建外老做一些開放可是主委你看一下111年是263次以上招標到今年我們這樣112年到今年還是23這個23比之前疫情之前還高"},{"start":4684.096,"end":4710.873,"text":"表示說我們現在這個機制還是可以有空間再調整可以掌握得更好這個是我提醒你能夠督促就是說怎麼樣合適來編列預算不會編得很保守後來不得不追加那個行政程式而且對人民是沒辦法交代因為你沒辦法如期如止來完工你最後一點我想說這個預算追加"},{"start":4713.194,"end":4738.187,"text":"這個不要把它變成常態。那物價慢慢趨於穩定,我們應該這個把它掌控好。不要把這個大家工作人員很忙,一直在辦預算追加案。那我再提醒一下,我們第二行政中心一再延宕。那現在政府跟廠商互相指責啦。"},{"start":4739.871,"end":4757.037,"text":"我們宜蘭縣的那個第二行政中心那這個就發生到這種情況是這個不但是影響整個縣政府在執行公權力的一個威信甚至廠商公安這個指責這個業務碗碗不知草"},{"start":4765.418,"end":4783.363,"text":"因為現政府會依合約來撥款2.5億元。像這樣情形我覺得工程會去瞭解一下,看怎麼樣的輔導。還有我們的宜蘭現在大力推動五漁村的一個計畫,那也是延宕,這個延宕會照現在看起來會延宕兩年。"},{"start":4790.431,"end":4817.885,"text":"這個就是又是時性移民的一個問題。所以我今天就是一方面感謝啦,我後面還是要勉勵主委。這個主委在已經盡力了,但是相關單位沒有跟著帶動起來。我想公共工程委員會其實這個上行下效。公共工程主委已經做到了,底下能不能做到要去了解。"},{"start":4819.301,"end":4845.303,"text":"所有事情我們大概就是以這個標準來自我要求也要求我們相關的行政部門在公共工程方面能夠確實能夠核實來編列預算避免追加預算造成行政的困擾、耽擱那也要如期如質來完成工程我想這個是公共工程委員的責任我想最後給主委講兩句話啦我說最後一次在這裡質詢你"},{"start":4848.783,"end":4876.679,"text":"這個6年以來真的很感謝那個陳委員一路非常的支持跟鼓勵也非常支持地方的構想建設那在匯報方面我們透過學條也真的解決了一些地方的問題那就是在委員的這個主調之下我們一起在推動了一些建設那這些建設才讓他啟動後續還有很多要努力的"},{"start":4877.419,"end":4899.76,"text":"我們會繼續來關注。那另外對於後面委員所提的說應該要何時編列預算避免離會標。這個我們非常贊同。我們會查度方向來努力。謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝二部委員。二部委員一番感言啦。二部委員要離開我們了,我們很難過。我們掌聲給他送情好不好。"},{"start":4904.739,"end":4926.685,"text":"國務委員這位一直在交通委員會出現,下次還可以選嘛,還有機會啊。不過你離開我真的很難過,好吧你就安心的去吧,好不好。畢業了,修正一下。好,我們下一位請何欣辰召委,謝謝。"},{"start":4932.088,"end":4936.751,"text":"主委我一向都很關心政府的治安的問題還有能夠政府應該要協助民眾來試炸防炸打炸的問題所以這牽涉到你會想說這跟我公共工程委員會有什麼關係有很大的關係"},{"start":4961.949,"end":4963.67,"text":"公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4979.815,"end":4999.665,"text":"針對這個要編專款那採購資安防護的一個相關的設施設備那在這個因為有不同的資安的機關的資安的層級不同所以他所需要的資安的防護的設施設備還有呢他們的那個採購契約的範本的要求也會跟著不同"},{"start":5000.285,"end":5020.331,"text":"那像這個部分我請教一下主委我們現在是怎麼樣來分這個是用個案來分還是用ABC不同資安等級的機關來分還是我們怎麼樣來區分這個公共採購的時候這個不管是契約或者是相關的一個採購的問題我們怎麼來法令的一個解釋跟要求。"},{"start":5021.531,"end":5032.618,"text":"跟委員報告有關資安採購我們定次的質問是兩方面一方面是資安的安全的防護方面一方面是委員很多關心資訊採購發生很多的爭議的問題"},{"start":5037.061,"end":5055.162,"text":"那麼在資安方面我們是協同這個數位部一起訂定相關的他的這個必須從這個那個資訊安全的採購到軟體到整個安全的防護那麼協同數位部一起啊來做防護的工作"},{"start":5056.263,"end":5083.963,"text":"接下來我就要請教你是協同數位發展部那資安的部分我們現在9月25號拿到的你們的作業指引那當然我比較關心三件事情因為在這裡面你們認為說各機關所提的有關資安的中長程計畫應該按照其資訊建設經費編列一定比例的資安經費那我就要請教第一個一定比例是多少"},{"start":5084.403,"end":5111.619,"text":"那你們又怎麼樣去盤點去要求去制定那個標準第二個我們開始做了嗎因為呢我們現在正在審明年度的預算但是呢你這個作業指引是在9月25號才出來意思是說9月25號的指引出來的當下預算書各部會的預算書已經在立法院了那到底在明年度的總預算裡面各個部會有沒有按照你的指引去編列預算"},{"start":5112.932,"end":5140.409,"text":"主委,三個問題。這個的比例我們大概在5到7個百分比。那麼在計劃。5到7個百分比。那在它的編列的情形會在這個計劃的審查過程當中啊。我們會來加以做確認。那請問計劃的審查過程是誰審?他計劃審查會比方說在計劃的時候就是國發會。他會做一個聯合的審查。工程會也在裡面。會來加入。另外在基本設計我們也會來控管。"},{"start":5142.369,"end":5171.028,"text":"基本設計的部分你們會跟數位發展部來幫忙各部會嗎?的意思嗎?是這樣子嗎?來做一個確認做一個確認所以5到7%不分資安的A、B、C等級嗎?對好那再請問一下那我剛剛講的第一個9月25號的指引那那個時候呢總預算已經在立法院了那請問一下那你們這個計畫的審查之後審查過了那預算是編在明年總預算編了嗎?"},{"start":5172.91,"end":5197.032,"text":"它應該是涵蓋在總預算裡面去做一個題列。涵蓋在總預算裡面去做一個編列?對。我是建議的,主委。雖然這不是你的主職,是數位發展部。但是呢,因為公共採購是在我們公共工程委員會。那你現在是原則的指引,而且要包括很多的這個個案的特性,我再強調一次喔。每一個部會的資安等級是不一樣的喔。"},{"start":5197.532,"end":5199.894,"text":"那因為資安等級的不一樣他的資安的設施設備跟強度的要求不一樣的情況之下預算5到7%的這樣子同案式的"},{"start":5209.248,"end":5227.569,"text":"適合嗎?這個我覺得你要再去審慎的去思考一下。跟數位發展部好好的討論一下。好不好?這第一件事。第二個,到底明年的總預算裡面有沒有相關的計畫跟資安的經費。我也覺得請你去確認一下。為什麼?這位前社長我接下來要跟你問的。"},{"start":5228.63,"end":5245.04,"text":"因為呢,如果政府資訊系統裡面的資安風險沒有把它降到最低,雖然你有訂指引,雖然我要求一定要編預算要確保,但是呢,民眾期待的是什麼?我看到預算之後,我要看到什麼時候可以做到?"},{"start":5245.76,"end":5266.228,"text":"我如果可以提升政府各部會的一個資安防護,那也許我的個資就不會漏死掉,不會外洩。如果我們政府的各單位的對於市詐、房詐、賭詐可以幫民眾做得好的話,那民眾的身家財產的喪失的風險有可能就會降到最低。"},{"start":5267.108,"end":5295.861,"text":"我要的是整個要保護我們人民的生活跟他的財產所以接著最近最流行的一個詐騙簡訊叫做水費我到昨天我的後援會系統地方群組裡面還有人去收到這樣子的簡訊當時候我跟數位發展部總數位發展部在質詢的時候還有包括跟NCC在質詢的時候兩個部會的首長都跟我保證他們跟各地方對不起各大的"},{"start":5296.661,"end":5316.667,"text":"полне信業者都已經協調好了只要是有關詐騙的簡訊一通都不會發的出去但是呢我很抱歉的告訴你很可惜很遺憾的到現在剛剛的那樣子的一個詐騙簡訊還在我們的各地方群組人民的手機上在流通所以呢告訴"},{"start":5318.089,"end":5343.804,"text":"我要告訴你的重點是即使是我們已經宣誓了說各電信業者有配合了簡訊的代鈔業者也已經配合了絕對不會有詐騙簡訊結果還是發生那我就問了唐鳳啊為什麼會這樣子他就跟我說唯一可以的解方是什麼解方之一就是要111政府簡訊平台然後他還跟我承諾明年1月一定會正式上線"},{"start":5345.523,"end":5374.56,"text":"可是我要問主委如果我們所有各部會的簡訊要能夠上得了111的簡訊平台系統那必須在你的電子採購網裡面必須在你的公共採購裡面是有這個111簡訊平台系統可以讓各部會下單子給數位發展部或是下單子簽契約成立了之後他才可以去發111簡訊平台系統"},{"start":5375.819,"end":5387.342,"text":"如果沒有這個過程其實講的都是空話所以主委我要求的是什麼如果要向唐鳳部長承諾的明年一月各國營事業各政府機關都能夠使用111簡訊平台系統讓我們的國人看到這個簡訊就知道這個是真的政府單位國營事業發的簡訊不是假的"},{"start":5400.586,"end":5424.495,"text":"那這個111簡訊平台系統要在公共採購網上要在電子採購裡面讓各部會的採購人員看得到啊?主委你覺得明年1月來得及嗎?既然數位部他們已經這樣的一個宣誓要執行那工程會就採購這方面的相關的數位發展部有跟你們討論過這件事了嗎?"},{"start":5425.916,"end":5447.285,"text":"有,他們有在溝通,我同意中央委員的講法,我們從這個採購端這邊的這個系統的管理來勾結把它建立起來,讓它真正能夠落實。那你需要多久的時間?明年1月唷,唐鳳部長是告訴我們唷,明年1月希望各國營、四業、各政府單位都能夠上這個111簡訊系統名牌唷。"},{"start":5449.775,"end":5467.528,"text":"我們來配合他們來...一定做得到嗎?因為我現在抓了幾個數字齁,是你們的公共採購的一個行政流程所需要的時間。我自己抓了抓了齁,數位發展部說要大概44天到50天,就快兩個月啦。現在已經11月20幾號了。"},{"start":5471.741,"end":5475.484,"text":"我們來瞭解他們的做法。我們盡量來配合。我是希望一定要做到。我希望明年一月我們不會再看到這些假的這個國營事業的簡訊然後來詐騙民眾。這讓民眾對我們政府是失去信心啦。"},{"start":5495.219,"end":5510.577,"text":"欸 成立一個數位發展部說我們是一個數位科技大國結果我們連一個詐騙簡訊我們都不能防止但現在弄了一個111簡訊平台好很好但是他要能夠上路他要能夠有用"},{"start":5511.718,"end":5528.242,"text":"他如果上不了路他如果用不了那也是白搭所以主委你的重要性是在這裡啊公共採購各部會各國營事業的採購是要從你開始啊所以要拜託你好不好明年1月好不好好以上謝謝好謝謝何欣淳召委下一位請陳江華委員發言"},{"start":5542.79,"end":5545.692,"text":"主委,在今年的9月8號,您有親自率隊到宜蘭深溝水源生態園區,對不對?對。那這個滋養22萬人用水,還有1600公頃用養農地的灌溉用水的地下水庫,我想"},{"start":5572.262,"end":5591.758,"text":"這是我們宜蘭的一個特色,而且是非常珍貴,雖然每天的這個出水是10萬噸以內,我想這個保護非常重要,保育非常重要,主委說是不是?"},{"start":5593.86,"end":5597.541,"text":"主委應該對地下水跟浮流水的差別是非常"},{"start":5621.952,"end":5622.012,"text":"閱讀委員會主席"},{"start":5631.937,"end":5660.674,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":5660.814,"end":5661.856,"text":"因為這邊要畫自然水保護區比較困難。"},{"start":5677.959,"end":5678.079,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":5694.309,"end":5694.869,"text":"議員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":5709.62,"end":5726.15,"text":"大的方向朝化石自來水保護區這個是對的但這個程序會影響比較冗長是那我是覺得可以做的要先做就以剛剛深溝園區來講他是屬於南陽溪的救火道"},{"start":5726.971,"end":5756.732,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":5756.972,"end":5757.092,"text":"議員會主席。"},{"start":5786.423,"end":5801.93,"text":"則是針對這個項目那目前也是只有參考依據那如果這樣的實施下去你認為成效會怎麼樣?謝謝委員一直以來都很關心這個方面的這個生態的保護"},{"start":5803.154,"end":5828.289,"text":"那我們也非常的重視那麼這個部分呢我們以前是從施工的時候才去去碰觸到這個問題我們現在已經拉前到不斷是拉倒設計甚至於計畫的時候就應該去考慮這個問題好那現在就是因為在剛剛提到的沒有罰則拘束力也沒有建立苛責的機制沒有苛責機制那2050淨零碳排雖然"},{"start":5829.77,"end":5858.353,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":5859.266,"end":5859.426,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":5872.748,"end":5894.885,"text":"主委你怎麼看呢?這個部分我們現在準備從這一個公共工程的設計的方面採購方面就來著手。就是在設計的時候就應該去考量到盡量減少使用增加碳排量大的一個材料或工法。工程會好像要階段性以材料面的。對。"},{"start":5895.686,"end":5895.726,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":5911.874,"end":5939.619,"text":"在公共工程先把它制度面建起來,然後到2030年就要減30了,可能才來得及。主委你覺得是嗎?我們會從源頭就開始。就是說這個可能要全面的,不僅是只是從材料面。那我舉一個例子,譬如說現在SRF,因為我們要有自主能源,或者是要有更多再利用,循環利用,但是SRF主要是塑膠類的。"},{"start":5940.879,"end":5967.229,"text":"所以塑膠類它用作能源,它其實也有排碳,也有排碳。那本席有跟那個經濟部說這個不是再生能源,因為它是燒塑膠嘛,燒化石燃料,那怎麼會是再生能源。所以也請公共工程能夠,公共工程會能夠將這個部分也納入,譬如說它減碳,它排碳多少,減碳多少,也一定要來做訂定,可以嗎?主委。"},{"start":5969.186,"end":5997.49,"text":"再來就是永續這個部分,綠色採購、慢向永續的採購。我們知道如果用公共採購的力量來執行、來推動,應該是會力量更大。歐盟有一套綠色公共採購的標準,他們的GDP標準涵蓋產品認證等等。這些就是需要把永續循環原則納入標準的要求。"},{"start":5998.39,"end":6005.457,"text":"則建議綠色公共採購標準。則建議綠色公共採購標準。則建議綠色公共採購標準。則建議綠色公共採購標準。則建議綠色公共採購標準。則建議綠色公共採購標準。則建議綠色公共採購標準。則建議綠色公共採購標準。"},{"start":6022.412,"end":6051.242,"text":"那這個部分我想可以促進產業共生跟循環生態系統的這樣的一個整個全面性的制度面能夠讓永續更實質的落實。那請問主委是不是可以來研擬來推動。好,我們來納入來考量。好,那是不是可以把書面報告提交給我國會辦公室。那也希望也可以交委會了。好,那最後就是有一個"},{"start":6053.043,"end":6070.513,"text":"針對活化閒置空間的議題我們知道工程會稱閒置公共工程空間以活化減少但是卻趕不上新增文子館的產生那請問主委如何來避免我們中央跟地方的工程"},{"start":6071.26,"end":6072.46,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6099.346,"end":6124.728,"text":"好那最後再跟主委請教就是那個營建工程土石方還有以前叫廢土那現在就是費用的關係本系也召開公聽會就是如果能夠將營建剩餘土石方能夠用比較把它朝國有化就是"},{"start":6126.749,"end":6151.718,"text":"國產國家的資產這樣的角度然後他們進這個土資場收費比較低就像比照進台北港的公共工程進台北港的那個價錢那他們自付運費然後送去的話這樣就可以避免去倒在農地啊倒在那個濕地啊或者是被當作事業廢棄物的"},{"start":6153.154,"end":6153.735,"text":"閱讀委員會主席"},{"start":6164.997,"end":6191.936,"text":"好好的來推動這樣的一個方向。好,非常謝謝陳委員一直在關心這一塊。那這塊真的是問題非常的嚴重。你剛剛講台北港為例。今天如果沒有台北港把遠崎建設提早來這個吸納這個土石的話,那恐怕台北都會區有非常的嚴重。他現在已經進了三、四千萬方的土方進去。"},{"start":6192.596,"end":6208.728,"text":"主委,因為中南部也很嚴重,其實很多還是農地都被破壞了。所以可不可以盡快加快,就是讓民間的他們願意進土地廠費用降低,然後不要讓他們被亂倒。好,謝謝張華委員。下一位請陳素悅委員發言。"},{"start":6228.356,"end":6228.517,"text":"吳主委請"},{"start":6238.789,"end":6262.194,"text":"委員你好主委早安我們知道工程會就是政府採購的主管機關那重要的業務當然就是這個修訂政府採購法跟範本讓這個相關的部會有依循的一個法律讓整個採購的流程可以更完善然後也避免這個弊端那我們也知道就是說其實"},{"start":6263.635,"end":6275.036,"text":"我在地方常常會遇到,其實很多的業務單位,就是發報單位,他們也很怕遇到得標的廠商,就是不良的廠商,擺爛。"},{"start":6276.485,"end":6295.125,"text":"那其實也有廠商他也很怕遇到這個刁難的這個業主單位所以其實這樣的狀況下其實後來很多工程也會衍生一些爭議就是也經歷的情況所以我們知道工程會有另外一個重要的一個業務也就是工程爭議的一個調處"},{"start":6296.742,"end":6321.872,"text":"這個部分那我們從公共工程委員會的一個統計資料來看就是說以最近這三年2020、2021、2022年就是我們有收到的這個申請調解的這個案子跟後來我們結案的這樣子的一個統計的數字我們看出來平均大概調解成立的這個比例大概有八成左右"},{"start":6322.776,"end":6335.127,"text":"那就這個部分那等於是說還有兩層是調解無法成功的那這部分我們工程會有沒有去分析瞭解說在這個沒有成功的兩層大概是什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":6337.334,"end":6366.284,"text":"沒有成功來達成共識的部分應該是雙方的認知差距太大沒有能夠來同意這裡面我們還是在繼續我們以前就他們不成立我們就算了現在我們已經做到不成立我們仍然要提出我們的建議跟方案讓他能夠進一步去採用如果再不行那主要走入另外一個程序走"},{"start":6367,"end":6391.817,"text":"那通常就是凍結不成的話,他們可能就是會走入這個訴訟的一個程序嘛。仲裁或訴訟。仲裁或者是訴訟。那事實上其實很多公共工程啊,如果說衍生爭議的時候,就是會造成這個工程的一個延宕。那造成工程的延宕事實上喔,對於,如果是公務機關的話,對公務機關的形象其實是傷害蠻大的啦。"},{"start":6392.137,"end":6409.671,"text":"一般民眾不會去了解說這個工程延宕到底是發生了什麼問題或者是發生了什麼爭議那以我的選區就是這個田中火車站他的一個這個無障礙設施跟這個電梯工程的一個發包"},{"start":6410.692,"end":6427.738,"text":"那這個工程嚴當很久了那整個這個車站外觀就是它的圍籬一直圍著那也造成地方鄉親在搭車的時候抱怨因為下雨天的時候等於他們就是沒有一個遮雨的一個地方所以非常的一個不方便"},{"start":6428.598,"end":6443.012,"text":"那這個工程延待很久然後甚至很多年輕的學生也在這個社就是網路社群有留言啊曾經有一個學生他說他從他讀大學搭火車出外讀書到他畢業了"},{"start":6446.014,"end":6467.664,"text":"這個委理都還沒拆。可見這個延宕超過4年以上了。我覺得他講得很貼切可是也很諷刺。那針對這樣子一個狀況因為目前據我了解他們是業主單位跟廠商已經進入這個司法程序在互相提告。那這個這一件案子我們工程會有收到他們的申請條處嗎?"},{"start":6470.195,"end":6491.569,"text":"呃,像這樣的情況,我覺得如果現在還存在那邊,照講我們在列管上面應該會發現。是。如果沒有發現的話,我們應該,我們會馬上來了解,來協助他處理。有時候不一定說等到爭議完才能夠去動,也可以採取相關的策略,所以先把工程先把它做一個進行,也可以。"},{"start":6492.239,"end":6520.541,"text":"是因為目前他們就是已經在進行司法的一個互相提告的一個狀況所以對廠商來說他不猜為理因為他說他這個是他證據保全的一個狀態可是這樣的話對整個這個外觀形象或者是旅客進出是非常的一個不方便然後其實對政府的形象傷害也很大因為旅客鄉親他不知道說這個發生這樣子的延宕到底是什麼狀況"},{"start":6521.894,"end":6537.734,"text":"這個如果我們沒有能夠去發現這個問題去協助處理是我們的不應該不對的地方。那今天委員提出來我馬上會加以了解來協助處理。不應該等到訴訟完成再來解釋說不能這樣子。"},{"start":6538.294,"end":6556.614,"text":"對阿不能這樣子喔是那因為其實這個田中火車站之外我們也看到媒體報導像其實台南火車站也是一樣有這樣子的一個延宕的狀況也是延宕5年了所以我覺得說對這樣子一個工程的一個延宕對我們來說我們一般人都會覺得非常的一個不應該"},{"start":6557.875,"end":6585.292,"text":"厲普不應該所以就這個部分我們希望工程會能夠主動去了解然後也能夠主動去就是讓這個工程能夠趕快順利再進行那另外本席想請教一下因為最近有看到就是媒體報導就是有這個消防員在臉書爆料就是說有關這個消防車的一個採購就是連續8年都是由這個同一家廠商得標將近8"},{"start":6587.073,"end":6587.293,"text":"議員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":6608.965,"end":6619.95,"text":"呃,像這樣的狀況,我們照講應該在整個機盒或茶盒上面會去發現,那竟然沒有發現,我們會來加以了解。"},{"start":6620.655,"end":6650.098,"text":"是因為我覺得說這個消防車真的是非常重要因為我們想像說如果當發生火災的時候消防車出情結果到現場如果說發生故障這水壓不足沒有辦法這個及時的來救火我覺得這個是非常嚴重的一個問題那另外根據這個消防弟兄的爆料就是說在這個這個廠牌的消防車他的這個就是鋼片上竟然沒有廠牌"},{"start":6650.718,"end":6652.599,"text":"謝謝陳素月委員的發言。下一位請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":6689.222,"end":6691.891,"text":"謝主席,要邀請吳主委。吳主委請。"},{"start":6701.339,"end":6713.902,"text":"主委,本席在大概兩年多前有爭取到我們臺南一項重大的工程,就是安平跨港大橋。但兩年來,這個橋樑的工程已經到這個月,到11月已經流標了10次。那怎麼辦?預算,給主委參考一下,從最早的12.3億,12億3千萬,"},{"start":6729.656,"end":6753.642,"text":"到現在最新核定已經到21億9500萬還標不出去那到底什麼原因我們重大工程一直都標不出去主委你記得我曾經在這裡跟你提說過去工程會到我們委員會來報告一定會提一個數字就是工程的那個結標率"},{"start":6755.643,"end":6783.38,"text":"但我說那時候工程標錄區的比例都非常高都九成多啦因為你把所有的採購都算進來了連那個十萬塊你也算啦幾十萬你也算啦那實際上我們關心的應該是重大工程假設我就以一億為門檻啦一億以上的工程的絕標率啦就很低了啦我給你參考啦像一億以上的絕標率啊逐年下降"},{"start":6784.961,"end":6811.085,"text":"現在公共工程都沒辦法處理啦。那這個啊,負面就影響到國家重大建設的推動。你看一億以上的絕標率也就很難看了啦。以前一定會提的絕標率啊,這一次工程會來,今天來報告就不提啦。不要提啦。不好看啦。那主委,你是專家耶。現在絕標率也不到七成了,已經跌破七成了。"},{"start":6812.592,"end":6834.246,"text":"所以只要拿一以上的重大為門檻來一刀切啦,看起來的決票率就非常難看了。那工程會今年乾脆啊,這一個會期乾脆不提決票率,今天就沒有提決票率。但是工程會只有寫一道,有寫到啦。決票率低啊,那工程會就會討論嘛。開了300多場的專案會議,說要協調處理。"},{"start":6840.485,"end":6864.88,"text":"蓋三百多場在嚇死人了,那要有效果吧,你要好過,要不然你去那幾間會議要做什麼,飆不出去就要來開會。所以我今天就用我們台南啦,就本席可以說最關心的啦,因為這個對於我們安平到市區,尤其解決安平舊部落的交通阻塞,這個是非常重要的。"},{"start":6866.14,"end":6889.19,"text":"讓以後啊如果車輛南北你不需要你不是要到安平舊部落去你就可以不必去塞在舊部落裡面你可以直接由這條跨港大橋到台南市的那個永華路你就直接進到安平的那個新市區就武崎這邊來這個解決安平的交通擁捨啊非常重要的工程留標10次啊主委你知道這個事情嗎知道"},{"start":6894.203,"end":6895.847,"text":"那主委有沒有什麼解方啊?怎麼辦?"},{"start":6898.313,"end":6923.695,"text":"謝謝委員的指教在流標7次的時候在今年的6月我曾經召開過一次檢討會議也提醒市政府要做一些處理這中間可能有一個問題比較重要的就是經費的這個不足的部分內政部這邊到最近才給予確定的活下去"},{"start":6924.375,"end":6953.501,"text":"那這個部分志東堅他有做一些檢向等等那麼可能也是造成這個廠商果子不淺的原因之一。主委我跟你講一般人都會直接想說因為你預算變太低啦所以飆不出去嘛我跟你做個參考啦這個工程已經從12億3千萬追加到21億9千5百萬追加比例快要八成了追加了百分之七十八"},{"start":6954.52,"end":6981.588,"text":"一樣標不出去。那為什麼會這樣呢?這就是你們要來協助解決的嘛。但是啦,這個不是單一現象。我來去查,是不是橋樑大家都不想做?欸,看起來好像是這樣喔。你要記得有一個海事工程,就淡江大橋。這個也留標了7次。也追加很多的那個工程預算。"},{"start":6983.611,"end":7008.34,"text":"現在因為公共工程以前大家印象中公共工程大家想要做很多人要搶甚至會發生弊案等等現在我看是相反公共工程沒有人要做所以就廠商來講我有很多比較好做的公共工程可以去承攬陸地工程比較好做對不對我必須冒險做這種海事工程"},{"start":7009.639,"end":7037.243,"text":"那海事工程如果你再加上預算不足那絕對沒有人來啦因為海事工程啊簡單講啦我隨便請教一下專家啦他說那當然啦因為你有很多你難以預料的變數就是風險啦例如潮汐啊季風啊或者再來一個颱風那對工程的那個風險啊他們很難估算啦所以通常都不大願意做啦"},{"start":7038.68,"end":7044.527,"text":"憲政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。憲政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。憲政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7059.659,"end":7087.886,"text":"最常發生的就是預算估太低嘛那預算不想估太低地方政府都按照我們工程會的證明工程會有一本聖經啊公共建設工程經費估算編列手冊啦公共工程委員一定按照你這個去編啦對不對是不是這樣子都按照我們工程會寫的這本啦可是我們這樣的估算啦就是說這個官方的標準價格跟現在的市價"},{"start":7089.5,"end":7116.356,"text":"有沒有落差?這個工委員報告齁,如果他完全依照這樣的一個價格編列是不對的。如果有落差,啊你當然撇不出來啊。那公務呢,他當然會比較保守嘛,因為我為什麼要多編預算,當然要說我圖利,當然要說我為什麼10塊可以做,我要寫12塊。其實市價跟你這本的手冊啊,以最近來看,我認為工程會要動態去檢討啦。"},{"start":7118.775,"end":7147.68,"text":"就是說因為市價是浮動的嘛啊你如果是很僵硬的因為我看到幾乎流標的第一個想法就是這幾年台灣的人工啊材料費都漲價嘛漲的速度很快所以你都跟不上嘛實際上本來預算在編列就會趨向比較保守啦啊你每次喔你編編的料然後再回來物條各位注意看喔現在物條啊變成公共工程的必要階段"},{"start":7149.059,"end":7171.89,"text":"其實出現誤條是不健康是不對的啦因為你編了預算為什麼會誤條就是你流標嘛還是他做不下去他來跟你協商那表示你當時編了預算就出問題你編太低送回來重新誤條預算提高再開標一次第一個浪費的就是時間了是不是這樣"},{"start":7174.383,"end":7198.194,"text":"我們這個預算的編類是有一個一般性跟特殊性的編類方式。他應該按照個別的個案的方式。如果像你講的這樣子的話就不會常常在那邊誤條了。還有一般公共工程在編他不會去編潛藏風險。其實你應該考量特殊工程的潛藏風險。像我剛講的那種橋樑工程海事工程。"},{"start":7199.369,"end":7214.598,"text":"因為他可能有一些潮汐、颱風、季風的影響等等,不管了。就是說你每一個工程的話,現在工業也絕對不敢寫這種前章風險,因為很難量化,或者說工程會你這邊沒有一個指導,他們也不會編啊。這個是台灣市區設計的。啊所以現在怎麼辦呢?像我們台南這個跨港工程,留標10次預算追加了八成還標不出去。"},{"start":7230.765,"end":7240.114,"text":"主委有沒有辦法那你怎麼辦有沒有辦法協助然後每次請教工程會在檢討開那個檢討會公共工程的檢討會就是某一個工程為什麼飆不出去啦那工程會的第一句話一定寫"},{"start":7247.725,"end":7262.76,"text":"公共工程委員會主要為主辦機關應作為而未作為。第一句就塞給地方政府,或是推給承辦單位。這個不是推,變成他的責任了。是啊。這樣你公共工程委員會幹嘛?我要你公共工程委員會幹嘛?我們要的是答案,當然啦。主辦單位要負最大責任,這個我同意。對啊。"},{"start":7272.614,"end":7287.03,"text":"我們要的是結果嘛,你要讓它可以順利的開票出去,看到底什麼地方出問題嘛。你自己寫的施政報告,開了300多次會議,1億以上的工程結票率不到7成,這樣有什麼用?我也不曉得你是專家啦,可不可以幫我們談談一下?"},{"start":7295.468,"end":7299.229,"text":"安平這個跨港大橋。你說錢不夠,也追加了很多啦。12億3追加到18億,追加到21億9,快要22億了。"},{"start":7313.342,"end":7338.321,"text":"你看那個追加的幅度12億3千萬快到22億好不好主委那這個安平跨港大橋我們請工程會專案來協助台南市政府在經過10次的流標以後以追加的將近8成的預算為什麼還標不出去為什麼請協助解決這個困難好不好好謝謝吳主委謝謝主席好謝謝林俊憲委員下一位請魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":7353.926,"end":7363.593,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請吳澤成主委。好,請主委。喂,主委好。喂,你好。"},{"start":7365.874,"end":7384.993,"text":"幾天前,特別交通委員會下鄉,請部長跟幾位局長到現場。我覺得這些公務員有點感慨,跟以前實在差很多。因為有些工程留標太多次,"},{"start":7385.994,"end":7404.471,"text":"在整個開會之前負責這個工程的主管就跑到我旁邊說委員委我們大概什麼時候會再幾次招標這一次應該會有人來那我就跟他聊天過程中我發覺這些以公務背景的這些主管這幾年搖身一變變成業務推銷員要敲門訪客"},{"start":7409.415,"end":7435.413,"text":"拜託拜託,還失敗率可能高達九成,好不容易求到一家含著眼淚感謝。那我覺得現在確實每個委員都提到這個問題。那我想說我們有看到這個我們主委特別在訪問的時候特別有說嘛,其實大概就是這個這些情況。四大理由嘛,價格、工期、可能榜標或者過於集中。"},{"start":7436.374,"end":7463.029,"text":"一、錢不夠明明買這個就不只這個價錢你一定要編了很少錢當然大概就只有流標嘛不然可能就是品質有問題那你時間明明就不夠明明要兩年大家才可以完成你只給人家一年或一年半合約發現有綁標綁標就很多人根本根本沒辦法來嘛沒辦法來因為他可能有些東西他公司拿不到案量過於集中"},{"start":7465.7,"end":7467.047,"text":"這個因為現在交通部"},{"start":7468.274,"end":7468.955,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7497.538,"end":7516.448,"text":"五年、六年、終於、終歸什麼繞過了、拼過了。但它價錢還守在五、六年以前這個部分。那你覺得,但是交通部就說,終於過了。但是當時變得就這個錢。我就硬著頭皮,拿五、六年以前價格硬去。"},{"start":7518.53,"end":7533.225,"text":"憲宜他們到底怎麼樣去做?怎麼樣做他才不會違法?然後也不會造成重大工程這麼多次的流標?你說一下嗎?像剛委員這種講法機關就不應該這樣你前面是幾年前的估的價格"},{"start":7533.786,"end":7549.554,"text":"您現在5、6年之後進到一個設計階段,您就要依照現在的價格去做編列,然後該修正,您要報修正。而且行政院有一個措施,您要執行的時候,因為物價的關係,您可以邊報邊進行。"},{"start":7552.57,"end":7568.842,"text":"主委我相信你們應該有三令五申或者各項訓練甚至採購人員的考證照過程中很多的觀念都有給他們但是這種工程類的巨額的採購因為源頭在這些工程人員在寫預算的時候到了採購人員那邊其實也沒有任何改的空間"},{"start":7577.688,"end":7606.361,"text":"我真的是覺得像你這個提出來這四個包括錢不夠、工期明明就不夠這些具體的這個部分因為我們發覺有很多聽起來就可以事前預防而且很多都是人為的問題可能不是刻意可能就像你剛剛說的剛剛林俊賢委員講說就按照你的標準按表操課先弄一次那剛剛像我所說的這個5、6年前的價格他也保險當時估計這樣我先弄個一兩次再說"},{"start":7607.381,"end":7620.828,"text":"議員會議長"},{"start":7621.345,"end":7649.76,"text":"保守不要違法確實每一個人都是我先用我也不管合不合理先試驗一下不行我們再來大家共同負責你跟這些第一線的人員你又怎麼樣跟他們建議我想我們除了剛剛委員建議我們盡量的在對第一線同仁做一個教育或宣導之外我未來會做一件事對於機關所長要刻意責任"},{"start":7651.496,"end":7674.114,"text":"好,機關首長,這個部分很多民選的,真的,可能有時候他要經過四年才懂,所以我倒是覺得一剛開始就有一些想法觀念的問題,要他們機關的主管跟不管財主單位、相關單位,真的,我是覺得要一個這個重新去開始這個部分。"},{"start":7677.156,"end":7704.654,"text":"我們也看到剛剛講了就是多次流標以上才決標的我們看到這幾年的一個情況事實上是持續的不斷的一個增加那今年我們看到1到10月看起來這個前面數字有減少但是你看招標7次還沒標出去的它不斷的一個增加其實剛剛這個問題之外我們再看下兩頁下一頁不要看了好"},{"start":7706.874,"end":7735.171,"text":"我擔心有一種,你說他是榜標呢?其實有時候還真的是。你說他是第一線人員,他過於謹慎呢?有時候也是。可是你知道嗎?我最近碰到很多以前啊,因為我做,以前做市長的時候,欸你們不是在做公共工程嗎?現在蓋房子去做別的,不做了。我至少最近碰到兩三個,以前做很大的,很努力的,他們現在都不做。他說不做,我不敢做了,不敢做了。兩個原因啊。"},{"start":7736.891,"end":7738.852,"text":"憲政院公共工程委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7754.796,"end":7756.457,"text":"憲政院公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7779.315,"end":7779.776,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7797.196,"end":7813.897,"text":"叫天天不應呼地地不應翻臉了因為這叫廠商主動啊不是政府廠商我就算了老實說公共工程委員會大家也知道只要得罪一次以後大概你也不要來了就已經真的準備退出了所以你看廠商主動申報就這麼多"},{"start":7815.038,"end":7841.993,"text":"如果在基層弄來弄去打來打去沒有到這個階段廠商因為還要繼續做工程忍辱偷生的狀況也不少大概是這個數字的大概50倍100倍都有可能這個我是覺得這個部分也要有一個SOP而且稍微要電腦化一點現在做公共工程那些不做的廠商跟我說你就是一約合約給他"},{"start":7845.37,"end":7861.897,"text":"就很簡單,他已經請工人了。大概整個公文跑完,驗收東稿西稿,三個月、六個月可以拿到款,叫做很正常,很正常。就他自己要,手臂要很強啦。"},{"start":7862.757,"end":7890.383,"text":"真的就這樣了那我說來來去去拖過一年就在哪裡不對再去補一下拖過一年也還算一般廠商可以忍耐的所以很多現在因為廠商難找我覺得有部分的人員還在活在以前我的招報人員會最最大大家排在門口來求我那種時代已經過去了現在變成要兼業務人員去敲門這種情況我真的是覺得這個部分"},{"start":7891.69,"end":7904.746,"text":"我聽到遇到很多手邊打電話去問你為什麼人家做完不給錢了後面馬上隔天付錢莫名其妙事情很多啦我要拜託在這個付款的期間有問題當然就不要付款嘛"},{"start":7905.868,"end":7921.015,"text":"但是沒有問題脫的這個部分我是希望工程會也能夠在時程上面去能夠協助強調做一致性的一個建議好不好剛剛吳委員我想你當過市長很清楚"},{"start":7921.815,"end":7932.021,"text":"一個機關他的態度跟解決問題的能力跟效率也是很關鍵所以這方面你們將來我剛為什麼說要對於這個機關所長要苛責就是這個問題我們會來更加注意來追蹤來判好謝謝好謝謝冷命哲委員"},{"start":7954.388,"end":7979.057,"text":"好,謝謝。接下來我們請陳雪生召委。來。好,謝謝主席。是不是請吳主委。主委長。你好。剛才魯明哲委員發言,有關很多廠商現在忍辱透聲。"},{"start":7980.796,"end":8007.961,"text":"他敢得罪這些業者嗎?得罪了以後永遠不要來了。那麼現在缺工缺料剛才這些料材料又上漲這種情況之下會衍生出很多的工程糾紛然後再加上顧問設計公司吹毛求疵所以基層也勸缺了一些基本的常識比如說"},{"start":8010.985,"end":8034.819,"text":"這個缺點補正,那個缺點補正。這個磁磚少一塊,那個玻璃又不對,尺寸也不對。那這樣子的情況之下好了,這個去補正還好。現在要求你補正10件,10件補件完了又來20件,20件完了又來30件。這個事小,宮崎啊。"},{"start":8035.984,"end":8059.424,"text":"工期給你算進去,那個工期的話那更多了。所以這樣的一個調解案件我想工程會成不出窮了,應該蠻多的。那工程會對這一部分調解案件,前面委員也執行說有20%,你們自然而然行,很像調解不成,雙方差距太大。那你工程會應該就專業的部分,"},{"start":8061.929,"end":8088.291,"text":"你們要去解決這問題啊不然下面的這一些包商啊非常的痛苦啊現在資金本來就欠缺了然後勒施工完畢拿不到錢層層的關卡我接到很多的包商的反應啊但是我們也愛莫能助啊因為政府單位講依法行政嘛齁所以主委這一方面齁我也希望你們工程會在"},{"start":8089.403,"end":8112.975,"text":"全國最高的工程解釋機關,你們要做一個公平的一個裁處。20%的案件,也希望盡量給縣政府底下基層部門一個明確的方向,讓他們好做。還有一些就是說怕,怕事情把事情都推到中央來,推到你們那邊去,那你們應該也要做一個詳細的處理。"},{"start":8114.83,"end":8140.973,"text":"這一點沒問題吧?沒有問題,我們現在對於調解的部分,如果他們溝通沒有同意,我們都會做百分之百的提出建議出來。好,還有剛才那個郡縣委員提到台南的大橋,大橋現在也追加預算了,那很多都做不起來。我在前兩個禮拜跟蔡總統一個聚會裡面,我曾經請示他,"},{"start":8142.335,"end":8169.147,"text":"有關我請問主委馬祖大橋的案子你有沒有參與?目前是在交通部他們在...我知道你們委員會有沒有參與?目前我們還在國安會在審議當中我們會參加做審查。國安會審議的時候你們有參與嗎?有。那麼我問蔡總統的時候,她說外面講說馬祖大橋要600億,"},{"start":8171.462,"end":8199.318,"text":"但是我一直跟蔡總統講,你去問一下世西工程顧問公司,他說300億足夠了。那我也問過,你看剛才有很多的公共工程沒有人標啊,十幾次都沒人標。現在我們基層很痛苦的啊,很多工程都要縣長親自出門去拜託人家來標。不要說拿回扣啊,回扣這個就免談了吧。根本沒有人來做啊,預算很低啊。"},{"start":8200.609,"end":8209.156,"text":"那我們也去問過金門大橋的事蹊東坯,我問王董,原來我們是定288億,288億連東坯他說如果300億他一定能夠做,所以也就是說你這個預算的一個工程出去以後,"},{"start":8224.568,"end":8235.303,"text":"他要有人來標啊,沒有人來標你追加以後又沒人標,這個是個問題嘛,就跟台南的工程一樣嘛。那我的意思是說,我有跟蔡總統報告啦,300億4C說絕對沒問題。"},{"start":8242.579,"end":8265.855,"text":"那麼工程廠商曾做過金門大橋的東坯他說我以前沒做過金門大橋我還沒把握我做過金門大橋以後你馬祖的大橋我更有把握了所以我就跟總統報告說如果是600億我就投降我當然要考慮到整個中央政府財政的一個結構如果300億後來總統說"},{"start":8271.877,"end":8292.607,"text":"如果是300億預算經費分10年編列,那麼技術上如果沒有問題,他原則上應該覺得會支持這個事情。那主委就你的專業的觀點,技術性目前在國內有沒有問題?應該沒有問題。沒有問題。"},{"start":8295.598,"end":8296.238,"text":"接下來我們請陳佩瑜委員發言。"},{"start":8330.789,"end":8330.93,"text":"主委"},{"start":8340.219,"end":8344.841,"text":"主委早安跟主委請教幾個問題第一個是關於這個採購法的部分感謝在您的任內通過這個第4條的修正讓藝文人士相關採購有很多的空間跟彈性可是我們要說的是還是有些問題需要有些調整因為開始實施之後其實還是有些狀況在現場實務上的運作"},{"start":8361.807,"end":8373.655,"text":"所以是不是這邊可以拜託主委兩件事情。第一個,盤整2019年修法後採用採購法4條2項案例的數量跟執行的狀況。第二個,由工程會來主動邀請文化部還有相關的利害關係人來盤點檢討2019年採購法修正後,現行的藝文採購實務上還遇到哪些困境跟問題來進行相關調整跟修正。這個部分可不可以請主委幫幫忙。"},{"start":8387.884,"end":8407.239,"text":"好,我們馬上來做。好,謝謝主委喔。那第二個關於這個體育採購其實有一些問題喔。我跟主委分享一個實際的案例跟狀況。如果我們台灣的球隊要代表國家出去打球呢,那兩個禮拜後就要出國了。可是藍協可能會說我們要用體育署的補助來出國,所以按照這個採購的法規必須要在出發前的兩個禮拜"},{"start":8410.862,"end":8437.927,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8438.067,"end":8444.034,"text":"除了在採購方面我們應該要來協助他們,因應他的狀況需要來配合他的需要來做採購。可是如果這個體育局或者是單項協會他們目前都卡在這件事情上,他們可能不像主委您對於相關的法規有這麼多的理解,您會有什麼樣的建議跟幫助?我們來了解來協助他們。"},{"start":8456.929,"end":8458.15,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8472.082,"end":8472.262,"text":"應該沒有問題。"},{"start":8498.955,"end":8527.086,"text":"應該沒有問題好那這個部分我們辦公室也會積極再跟你們討論了好謝謝謝謝主委這麼爽快答應那再來一個問題好雖然我的投影片不見我直接說好了這其實工程會最近還有對於科技採購資安要求有一個相關的公文跟新聞嗎好我相信主委你應該很清楚那其實我要說其實不是只有科技類的標案有資安的問題其實在很多傳統的採購案也有資安的問題怎麼說呢體育署往年一直都會辦很多學生聯賽"},{"start":8528.146,"end":8550.723,"text":"在學生聯賽的時候當然就會取得學生的個資跟名單嘛我想您應該很清楚可是如果我們到相關的這個賽事網站上去看其實雖然大部分的比賽報名資料都是引導到承辦單位的網站上可是有些承辦單位他居然讓報名網頁留到第三方的民間公司去登錄而且在登錄這個資料的時候呢甚至跟"},{"start":8551.544,"end":8581.544,"text":""},{"start":8583.225,"end":8599.471,"text":"在相關你們可不可以協助各個部會在相關的採購案中關於收集處理利用各自的採購案提供相關的資安防護的建議或採購的範本設計給各個部會因為我剛剛只是跟您舉了體育署的例子可是我相信有非常多其他傳統採購案也會有類似的問題"},{"start":8602.943,"end":8603.383,"text":"好,謝謝陳本瑜委員"},{"start":8631.84,"end":8634.381,"text":"稍微請邱賢柱委員發言。"},{"start":8663.919,"end":8666.299,"text":"好,謝謝主席,我相信主委。相信主委,謝謝。"},{"start":8672.737,"end":8699.293,"text":"主委你好主委這個新竹市寡婦樓這個都更案那他的起源是光部政治專局在馬政府時代那委託內政部這個營建署辦理都更遭傷那結果在民國103年的時候內政部營建署遭傷弄得到最後只有李明一家啦通過資格審查那後來確實也拿到這個案子結果"},{"start":8700.333,"end":8727.677,"text":"當時主辦都更招商的這個營建署成鄉分署長洪家宏在106年的時候因為寡婦樓案收了這個倡議集團兩千萬的匯款以及在新竹另外兩個遠雄的案件都更案所會四千五百萬被收押那去年被臺北地院依貪污自罪條例判處八年兩個月那我要這個問主委是說政府採購法第五十條寫得非常清楚"},{"start":8728.197,"end":8755.439,"text":"有影響採購公正之違反法令行為就應該撤銷絕標終止契約跟解除契約並且追償損失那我其實就這個案子質詢過國防部那也問過這個內政部那其實到現在國防部的態度還是有非常的應該是說還是覺得非常的保留啦國防部到目前為止也都"},{"start":8756.019,"end":8779.173,"text":"沒有去處理到底是要終止契約還是解除契約那監察委員的調查也認為說這個公安部是依政府採購法來委託給內政部這是非常清楚的那工程會今天報告寫得非常清楚如果說就這個已經發生了這個政府採購法31條50條第101條的這個狀況的話"},{"start":8782.975,"end":8809.043,"text":"那根本不用等到刑事起訴或判決就應該要依行政程序法規定去做這個啟動行政調查程序那並且依個案實際請審審任何處那不受到這個刑事起訴或是判決拘束那更何況這個案件已經一審都判8年2個月了那就這個部分的話是不是國防部應該要啟動行政調查"},{"start":8810.369,"end":8835.311,"text":"跟委員報告雖然他這個案子不是用採購法他是用都更條例去進行的但我們檢視他的這一個採購相關的作業他是在招標這個的階段就可以去撤銷他的最優的這個申請對那他從那邊撤銷之後是後面就可以解約了對所以他應該去進行這個事"},{"start":8836.232,"end":8854.656,"text":"他應該進行這個事嗎?可是到目前為止,國防部的說法還是說怕被追查等等這樣的理由。第二個就是說,主委剛剛提到說這個不是依照政府採購法,但是這個恐怕有爭議,因為監委的調查報告也認為說國防部是依照政府採購法去委託給內政部。"},{"start":8856.937,"end":8872.396,"text":"那我去質詢內政部內政部的說法就是說現在內政部跟國防部之間已經沒有任何的這個委託的契約的存在了那所以應該是要國防部去做處理去審認嘛那一個"},{"start":8874.258,"end":8894.859,"text":"已經因為這個這個收賄然後被判刑那也廠商也非常清楚了他是透過行賄然後取得了這樣的一個資格而且只有這一家通過資格審查這判決書都已經寫得非常清楚了那最後他也得到這個案件了"},{"start":8895.279,"end":8911.67,"text":"那主委是不是你剛剛提到就是說他其實是在這個招標程序的時候他就可以把他取消這個最有利標的這個審查嘛那到底現在國防部依照你的看法是不是應該要馬上去跟這個廠商終止這個契約"},{"start":8916.232,"end":8941.117,"text":"國防部跟內政部之間他是一個行政委託的一個程序他不用什麼法令是這個已經很清楚了那內政部去招標才跟這個事件會有關係所以應該是要由這個國防部這邊他要去跟內政部要去要求然後我看從這邊去這個撤銷原來的這個申請人的資格然後再去做解約動作"},{"start":8942.318,"end":8960.039,"text":"對,撤銷原來的申請人資格因為他是透過行會所取得嘛對不對那這個其實非常清楚啦那就是說你今天其實有提到說這個機關不用等到起訴或是判決因為我在問國防部的時候國防部也一度跟我回答說欸委員"},{"start":8961.34,"end":8985.561,"text":"那這個現在一審而已啊那應該要到二審、三審定宴之後才來處理嘛那顯然今天這個報告裡面依照這個公共工程委員會的見解事實上你在這個不用起訴甚至判決的時候就可以依照行政程序去做行政調查了嘛那主委是不是請工程會在兩週內釐清金主寡婦樓案是否"},{"start":8987.024,"end":8992.238,"text":"應該由國防部立刻啟動行政調查並且發函給相關的部會,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":8992.952,"end":9018.526,"text":"我們來邀請兩個部會來釐清一下提供給他們比較這個做法因為你的見解連起訴可能都還沒有起訴就可以去行政調查了那他現在已經是一審已經判八年了兩個月而且其實他說什麼二審三審定讞我覺得基本上都是推託之詞因為那個判決書裡面被告都已經認罪了"},{"start":9019.861,"end":9034.639,"text":"對不對都已經這麼清楚了結果還不願意去做終止這是非常不應該的看他們也許是對法律的執行不了解或者有什麼的一個另外的考量我們把它弄得明清一下"},{"start":9035.16,"end":9056.507,"text":"好,那希望兩週之內能夠給我們一個報告,可以發函給相關機關。那主委另外一題,再兩分鐘。這個是民間公共工程委員會在11月8號發布一個道路坍塌跟臨防基礎掏空防範指引以及工程高空作業災害的防範指引,那強化"},{"start":9057.367,"end":9079.799,"text":"工程監督機制因為我國的高墜事件實在是太嚴重了除適用政府公共工程外也將民間工程納管但是從工程會的指引來看的話業者沒有落實職安相關的規定政府的監管密度不夠是最主要的問題我們也可以看到近年來營建工程業重大職災的問題很嚴重政府採購法裡面針對職安的問題"},{"start":9084.682,"end":9109.118,"text":"因依工程規模特性分析潛在施工危險編制符合職安衛法規的安全衛生圖說之規範並且量化編列安全費用等等之類的但是這樣的制度應該也要主委也要引入民間的工程而不只是公共工程那日本就有這樣的做法那我想請教主委"},{"start":9109.938,"end":9116.81,"text":"工程會是否可以研擬相關的指引去針對民間的工程的這個部分,比照日本的做法。"},{"start":9118.15,"end":9140.089,"text":"這個部分公共工程我們已經這樣在要求那民間的部分我們會來協調內政部透過他的建築法令跟建造管理來落實這個部分那請公共工程委員會兩個月內就強化民間工程職安規範跟費用編列以及企業辦理情形提出一個書面報告給本委員會"},{"start":9141.03,"end":9168.937,"text":"那最後一個就是強化汰除不良廠商的機制。那我們今天看到公共工程委員會的公共工程會的報告裡面說要運用工程履歷引進優秀廠商。因為主委其實在這個地方也一再強調就是說這個廠商的這個工程履歷是非常重要的。所以我們才會說今天主委我記得印象非常深刻主委也提到說不能夠讓其他的機關受害。"},{"start":9170.117,"end":9198.712,"text":"那事實上很多的問題的廠商卻持續的拿到政府的大案子我也覺得這個非常不解例如竹北天坑案5次坍塌最後搞出一個特斯拉掉到這個天坑裡面那賄賂竹縣官員的這樣的一個風譽建設卻最近又拿到了新竹市的最大的都更案這個建功安居的這個都更案"},{"start":9199.352,"end":9207.067,"text":"大家都非常憂心那主委就這部分的話強化泰圖不良廠商機制有沒有什麼這個精進的作為"},{"start":9208.51,"end":9228.3,"text":"我們一方面建立這些不良廠商的這個市基的一個網路的資料的把它建做起來。對。一方面要求機關在採購的時候,要去釐清確認這些不良的這個廠商,讓他不要經過評選或者納入他的這個對象。對。講這樣能夠汰除這個從讓那個優良的汰除到劣幣的部分。"},{"start":9235.904,"end":9255.82,"text":"對,就是說廠商履歷啦,我們這邊的建議就是廠商的履歷應該要納入第一個違反採購法的紀錄嘛,他都已經違反採購法多次了,那其他機關有可能會受害,那第二個就是說影響採購公正的違反法令的行為,那再來就是說違反勞基法,比如說他的這個對待勞工的這些紀錄非常不良,"},{"start":9258.542,"end":9285.189,"text":"殖安法、屢次發生的職災、高墜事件等等。性別工作平等法等等的紀錄應該都要納入廠商履歷。也請工程會在一個月內提出報告,針對強化太除不良廠商機制,如何能夠將廠商的履歷到底應該要如何納入等等,提出一個書面報告。好。謝謝主委。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。"},{"start":9292.054,"end":9292.855,"text":"三位請張祺祿委員發言。"},{"start":9308.857,"end":9325.523,"text":"委員你好主委好主委好我今天最後一個出來了主委那個我這邊是比較要請教一個比較在地性一點的問題當然也不見得是完全是但是是由我們公共工程會可以是監管就是說我先跟主委報告這個我們在"},{"start":9328.745,"end":9355.607,"text":"臺北市文山這邊有這個水源快速公路旁邊這邊有蓋一些社宅而且這個都還蠻大的住都中心在做的其實它大概就是將近就是上千戶啦其實這個我們自己在走訪的時候就發現一個大的問題是什麼其實很多的這個在地的包括里長自己都說其實不是很清楚那因為坦白說嘛地就是政府的嘛然後住都中心內政部嘛他們就蓋嘛"},{"start":9356.087,"end":9378.104,"text":"他也很坦白說啦,我們了解住都中心,他當然就是說我當然要趕快落實這個政見啊,我這個8年要20萬戶根本現在完全跳票,也現在都急著要趕快弄嘛,是沒有錯啦,可是問題就是他們跟在地的這個整體的這個溝通,很多里長甚至都不知道,就發生,原來就蓋了,就開始了。"},{"start":9378.965,"end":9403.546,"text":"所以這個我們當然知道重大公共工程都是需要經過一些不管你是環評或者社會影響評估等等就做這些事情也很坦白說啦我們在這個的制度上並不是很健全也許促參法那邊都還寫得比較仔細就是但不過促參是在歸財政部那邊如果今天有民間參與的話他在促參法裡面他在第6條61那邊都倒寫得蠻清楚你要公聽會你要"},{"start":9403.986,"end":9422.959,"text":"閱讀者、專家、學者、地方居民、民間團體這些全部都要進來可是反而這種由政府直接就下來的尤其像這種尤其現在他很敢你知道他就是覺得我管你有沒有配套的反正我現在急著要交差要把這個數量弄出來所以反而這個我們這邊照片其實也是現場"},{"start":9424.997,"end":9451.337,"text":"很多的鄰里長他真的都不知道就旁邊溝通那市府那邊其實也不見得有講得很清楚所以我的意思就是說請教主委我們到底在這種重大公共雖然我們的這個母法這個行政程序法也說這些重大公共工程你是要經過這個這個公聽的程序聽證的程序等等這些但是是不是每一個現在好像都每一個都是交到目的事業主管機關自己去搞定"},{"start":9452.177,"end":9470.484,"text":"但是他們在制度上到底這個社會溝通夠不夠,因為我們到了地方真的一聽我們很驚訝,我們說哇原來幾乎就比如說公告就公告一下就不見了,然後搞不好連里長連參加的機會都沒有,然後就過去了,就說好啦就要做了,可是這一做下去哇不得了。"},{"start":9471.404,"end":9495.016,"text":"像這些地方因為台北市都很稠密那個交通配套也沒做好以後大量的人員進去我們雖然是支持要趕快多蓋社宅可是旁邊的配套還有這個社會社區的影響這個我們要關注那主委怎麼看這個程序上我們如果監管這件事怎麼做我覺得無論是一個公共建設也好像這個一個地區上的社區的一個建設也好"},{"start":9495.876,"end":9508.886,"text":"那跟當地的一個交通環境的考量跟民眾的溝通本來就應該要進行。是是是是。所以這個部分如果住宿中心沒有去考量到那我們會來跟他協調請他們去注意這個事情。"},{"start":9511.228,"end":9536.638,"text":"對,其實這個真的要麻煩這個主委這邊,因為坦白說這個東西它還涉及很多方,而且就是說你也可以思考到住宿中心他的想像,他們就是也是辦他就是他自己的目標嘛,他的目標就很簡單就是設宅的數量要多趕快,反正而且地又是政府的很容易處理,他真的有點不太需要跟地方太多的溝通,那但是問題住在當地的住民就覺得說這個"},{"start":9538.278,"end":9544.202,"text":"mentioneding the following questions, please do not read them out loud."},{"start":9558.487,"end":9579.184,"text":"這個主委也是等於是政委的概念嘛,那個是不是有辦法能夠去協調呢?不然的話個性歧視我們覺得也蠻恐怖的,因為他愛說不做嘛,內政部他到底要不要做我們也不清楚啊。也許不用動到法令,我們在計畫的一個審核跟執行過程當中,可以納入這個環節。"},{"start":9580.345,"end":9580.405,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":9603.695,"end":9633.029,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9633.309,"end":9662.077,"text":"好,謝謝主席。好,謝謝張祺祿委員發言。登記質詢委員均已經發言完畢,做以下的決定。一、報告及詢談完畢。二、委員照正與許智傑、傅昆提、劉兆豪所提的書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或是未及答覆部分,請公共工程委員會盡速以書面答覆。休息10分鐘。"},{"start":9663.202,"end":9664.125,"text":"進行預算處理。"},{"start":10300.291,"end":10316.861,"text":"好,繼續開會。現在依序進行公共工程委員會、運安會及氣象署預算的處理,進行協商。同時請議事人員宣讀預算書及委員提案。臨時提案一案一併宣讀。"},{"start":10355.96,"end":10361.861,"text":"審查113年度總預算案行政院公共工程委員會單位預算委員提案資料。"},{"start":10364.178,"end":10388.314,"text":"跟各位同仁報告,因為還有三個單位齁,所以我們盡量長話短說好不好,謝謝。現在進行審查行政院公共工程委員會113年度單位預算第一案第一案昆州委員"},{"start":10391.376,"end":10417.162,"text":"第一案來,工程會說明一下。主席、各位委員。那跟委員報告第一案是李委員針對我們的委辦費要凍結還有3除150萬但是我要跟委員報告我們的委辦補助費這個部分有四個案件他都有確實的需要比如說我們是協助產業全球化去補助國內的廠商"},{"start":10418.542,"end":10426.126,"text":"然後也有雲端採購。我們建議刪除應檢列150萬,就是我們改成凍結就對了。建議不要刪除。凍結多少?你們建議凍結多少?"},{"start":10441.915,"end":10448.24,"text":"建議10%就原來的10%跟委員報告就是刪除這幾個字應解列150萬元豆點類這幾個字好啦乾脆一點就凍結150萬好不好第一案"},{"start":10464.932,"end":10483.66,"text":"第一案1-1、1-2凍結150萬這樣可以嗎?我又沒來我代表他好了不刪減但是1-1、1-2裡面有提到就是凍結書面報告對就是凍結書面報告不刪減好啦主名請坐第二至11案請發言委員"},{"start":10491.844,"end":10509.199,"text":"是。好,第一位焦豪委員,第二位俊賢委員,第三位全智委員。好,謝謝張偉,我的有第五案,那第五案是針對大直基太建案開挖掏空,造成民房呈現,這樣的現象。"},{"start":10512.242,"end":10512.422,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":10533.182,"end":10550.996,"text":"提凍結500萬,希望具體有一些改善的措施方案。提交相關的期程目標考核機制,送交通委員會此得解凍。"},{"start":10555.588,"end":10566.745,"text":"第七案是針對天坑的問題。全台大小天坑意外不斷,也有塌陷造成嚴重的事故。"},{"start":10567.586,"end":10581.47,"text":"那這樣子的情形呢,就是希望能夠有具體的改善,所以也是三減20萬,能夠針對採購法規制度面,能夠有所精進檢討。"},{"start":10591.633,"end":10600.899,"text":"公共工程法草案能夠修正相關的這個機制。提書面報告是得解凍。向說明。謝謝委員發言。感謝張偉。本期提第4案還有第8案。"},{"start":10619.91,"end":10646.85,"text":"第四案,我們編列了2584萬,其中的七成主要是用於協助我們廠商開拓海外,就是全球市場。但是這筆預算,我看最近幾年的執行率都是只有七成多,那去年大概74%,76%,86%,就算去年高一點也不到九成。"},{"start":10647.631,"end":10674.527,"text":"那今年吼到10月底啊為什麼執行率只有35%我跟工程會請教是因為沒有廠商來申請就是說開到海外市場那工程會要輔導大家去就是說去海外市場的時候為什麼會沒有人來申請而且我們看到過去幾年執行率也不高啦所以本期是用這筆預算是不是3.5百萬凍結文資每一個月內提報告"},{"start":10677.504,"end":10693.009,"text":"第8案主要是我們工程會推動的政府採購電子化。政府採購電子化其實已經推動了10年了。但到目前為止我們政府機關中還有6個機關財務類採購沒有電子化。有13個機關的工程類採購也沒有電子報價。"},{"start":10701.152,"end":10728.212,"text":"所以喊了這個採購電子化推了10年我認為成效並不好是不是請工程會也要檢討一下所以本席建立三檢5百萬要凍結文字3個月內提報告來謝謝好 謝謝等一下工程會一併說明一下因為區議員委員質疑你們這個執行力很差前面第一個執行力很差你決算書根本都"},{"start":10729.042,"end":10755.341,"text":"都不是這麼回事。好,我們請選擇委員。謝謝主席。那就像剛剛質詢提到了,針對這個不肖的廠商,然後他究竟要如何去管理的這個部分。那近期如這個新婦花終結這個塔調撞擊事故,甚至造成了這個我國非常優秀的法律學者林淑雅的上升。"},{"start":10756.201,"end":10774.316,"text":"還有這個風力建設竹北天坑案。那這個竹北天坑案,掉到這個天坑裡面這台車的車主也跟我聯繫他說只差五分鐘他也在這台車上。那差一點就也發生了這個不可挽回的悲劇。"},{"start":10775.217,"end":10790.85,"text":"另外涉嫌行賄事件以及基太大直天坑事件和倡議集團新竹寡婦樓都更案的行賄案都凸顯了政府採購法就這些不肖廠商的處罰、追廠和禁止參與採購的相關規範存在的規範不全的漏洞。"},{"start":10802.859,"end":10826.253,"text":"那也導致說若干的廠商在出現明明是一個非常嚴重的違法行為之後仍然不斷的取得政府高額的標案這種荒謬的結果那不僅有損公共採購跟工程的這個品質更深刻的傷害了政府採購程序的公正性以及廉潔性那目前政府採購法對於發生違反勞基法"},{"start":10829.855,"end":10848.574,"text":"adequacy Act以及性別工作平衡法等勞動法規情節重大的都沒有一個排除的機制。為了要促使工程會就汰除不肖廠商,持續取得公共工程及公共採購及工程的問題積極修法的處理。"},{"start":10849.896,"end":10870.972,"text":"我們建請凍結工程會建前及落實政府採購法規跟制度培訓跟管理採購專業人員預算20%。待兩個月內工程會提出修法評估書面報告後,並經本委員會同意時得凍資。好,協助委員不滿意的就是天坑事件了。"},{"start":10872.353,"end":10883.5,"text":"這個不肖的廠商,你們怎麼樣把他汰除,但是卻可以讓他繼續存在,他不滿意。所以對你們的預算進行凍結,等下一併說明。下面請陳世衛委員說明。"},{"start":10887.274,"end":10897.485,"text":"謝謝主席。那本席提的是第10案,就是有關工程會在113年度推動政府採購電子化計劃編列2325萬2千元,推動政府採購電子化這個業務。那我們知道這個也是要邁向這個淨零碳排的一個政策的一個措施。"},{"start":10907.455,"end":10908.676,"text":"公共工程委員會在2015年推動全國各機關採用公開取得電子報價單的政策。剛開始推動以未達100萬元的簡易財務採購。"},{"start":10923.59,"end":10947.191,"text":"adequacy Act 2019 規定公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會當居住公共工程委員會"},{"start":10948.592,"end":10965.503,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10965.603,"end":10969.765,"text":"議員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":10992.193,"end":11022.193,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11022.935,"end":11027.586,"text":"好,謝謝我們所有委員的質疑。我們工程會同意說明一下好不好。"},{"start":11032.722,"end":11059.197,"text":"事故調查凍結提案人邱賢志等。謝謝詹委跟各位委員的主教。剛剛委員的主教需要改進的部分我們會趕快來進行。第一個。第二個對裡面的建立的提案的部分我請求免刪減。第一個。第二個。那麼凍結的部分希望說都是在10%的這個合度。那麼第三個希望在兩個月內"},{"start":11060.698,"end":11075.502,"text":"你講的是總金額的10%還是?他提案的內容。你講7900多萬的?提案的部分。提案的部分喔?那2個月內提書面報告。那我那個都改2個月。我的5跟7都改2個月。5跟7都改2個月?對。好,謝謝。區議員,那個主委喔。"},{"start":11085.425,"end":11105.259,"text":"他說會遵照領域改進的免篩行不行?我同意啊。同意齁。這個我們居委員刀子很大,大刀王武。那個陳教授那一個同事希望不要提草案。這樣十分之一是多少?評估這樣。"},{"start":11108.047,"end":11109.928,"text":"那如果相關的規定能夠把它具體羅列出來。"},{"start":11123.982,"end":11151.575,"text":"七千九百萬八千萬八千萬不一定是修法案那個是具體的好謝謝還有早上質詢那個移植廢棄物廢土那些制度化好謝謝他這裡總的是七千九百二十一萬嘛那主委你是說百分之十嘛是不是那我們就讓你一點好了七百萬好不好好就統一就凍結七百萬"},{"start":11153.577,"end":11178.999,"text":"總預算凍結700萬書面報告後解凍。好,各位可以。抱歉,有一個小的第5案。第5案最後有一個陳委員有提出來就是有關於這個天坑這個部分,我們後面的一個騎乘目標考核機制。你就不要再講了嘛,你要結外生枝。等一下你多講那麼多錯。"},{"start":11180.42,"end":11186.448,"text":"這算你兩百萬、兩千怎麼辦?好不好?都已經裁市了嘛。強化運輸事故調查。第12到17案。事業委員、老具業委員。"},{"start":11194.78,"end":11199.643,"text":"公共工程技術業務及公共工程管理業務有各增編450萬。"},{"start":11211.271,"end":11226.544,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11226.684,"end":11246.438,"text":"其中機關資料傳輸韌性強化暨發放共用基礎平台建置計畫是由工程會等25個機關共同執行,以速發布為主責機關。那就這個部分本期是指引說是不是會有重疊性的一個部分,那我們也希望就是說這個"},{"start":11247.159,"end":11248.359,"text":"議員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":11267.042,"end":11289.878,"text":"好,謝謝蘇委員,請據縣委員發言。好,感謝昭偉。我們明年度的公共工程技術業務編列有3360萬。第一個,這筆預算過去的執行率都有將近9成。但為何今年到10月底,決算數只有54%?也就是說3300多萬,你也只執行了1800萬。到10月底,只有執行幾乎一半。"},{"start":11296.122,"end":11314.264,"text":"另外,這項經費基本上就是協助事業主管機關,奠定一些,簡單講就是希望工程能夠順利推動。但是就像北京今天早上也有質詢我們吳主委,像有這些重大工程會流標率仍然非常高。"},{"start":11315.765,"end":11331.06,"text":"從此審計單位也指出工程會有訂了一些相關參考指引但是還欠缺目的事業主管機關依據工程特性另外再訂一些相關指引來建立推動機制所以造成工程會給的建議沒有辦法實際執行"},{"start":11332.581,"end":11345.705,"text":"所以看起來這筆預算的執行跟實際的效果還是有很大的一個落差,而且你今年的執行率非常差,到10月底只有五成。所以北京建立3.5百萬凍結書面,是1個月內提報告。好,謝謝。好,謝謝經營委員。行政院主席主委有來嗎?"},{"start":11353.137,"end":11363.28,"text":"主席處他們不是預算沒有達成目標的話要處分嗎?他對執行30%幾十%的有問題吧?你拿個半個鐘頭回答我一下。"},{"start":11368.413,"end":11392.744,"text":"其實說他今年的嗎?對啊,去年啊。因為區議會委員質疑就是說去年前年你看質詢率一直都很低啊。不是,去年前年還可以啦。最近三年都八成,我是說。最近三年了。最近三年都八成多啦。結果今年突然間到10月底只變成五成了。今年還沒有結束可能要等到年底決算的消息。那去年呢?去年的決算呢?去年是85%。"},{"start":11394.845,"end":11403.452,"text":"那我的是第14案吼那針對這個因為數位部吼要協助這個資安A級機關導入所謂的界階政府資料傳輸平台吼這個TLO那因為這個資、個資的這個外洩吼這個問題非常的嚴重吼"},{"start":11423.388,"end":11445.02,"text":"那就這個部分的話工程會規劃於113年到116年去逐步推動那預估4年度計劃經費共2400萬元那我們為了要使工程會落實這個治安跟個資的保護因為你可以看到各機關各資的這個外洩的案件頻傳"},{"start":11449.462,"end":11449.502,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":11466.872,"end":11485.578,"text":"嚴厲資料上線前或取得後的安全評估項目以確保資訊資料傳輸安全性。我們建議凍結公共工程生命週期智慧型決策支援服務計畫預算5%。待工程會就前開的問題具體計畫以2個月內提出書面報告後時的動之。"},{"start":11494.656,"end":11504.845,"text":"那個剛才警務委員報告齁,你們那個預算執行率啊偏低啊,主委,你這裡面要不要自己刪減一點啊?"},{"start":11506.732,"end":11530.546,"text":"你錢給你,你用不完啊。你盡量用嘛。不是用不完。我們那個跟那個林委員報告,跟趙主任報告,我們那個扣點補助的是要等到年底之前,廠商拿到收據才能來核銷。所以會比較後面一點。年度裡面會執行完成。所以建議。不過他說前三年我們查決算啊,決算是很簡單的。"},{"start":11533.922,"end":11550.987,"text":"對阿,所以那個執行是沒有問題的,比較後面而已。錢都用得完嗎?會,會,會,覺得已經都同意出去了阿。我們不是不讓你用阿,而是說你們要積極利用阿。比較後面,比較後面,我們會來注意這個問題。好,你説明一下好了,來。"},{"start":11559.469,"end":11588.188,"text":"前三年低落的原因是因為國境管制,每一個國家都人境管制,所以後天出去要。我覺得跟疫情有關係。對,前三年是因為這樣,所以他們沒辦法去拿工程去解釋去投標,所以前三年的預算會低落。那今年計畫也都百分之百預算核定出去了,所以各廠商也都在國外打拚了,年底會拿收集來核銷。副主席你這樣講話也蠻合理的齁。"},{"start":11589.85,"end":11593.254,"text":"那你要凍結多少錢?凍結300萬好不好?我看十分之一嘛,有的150萬、有的70萬、有的幾十萬?"},{"start":11607.722,"end":11609.003,"text":"凍結300萬。12到17案凍結300萬書面報告也會來解凍。現在繼續18至24案。"},{"start":11625.849,"end":11651.851,"text":"謝謝主席本期題第18案是我們公共工程管理業務編了明年度編了4462萬這筆錢在前幾年大概都編一千多萬而已一千兩百一千一百九一千三百七到今年開始暴增了今年就編了四千多明年也要編四千多了這筆錢一樣也是要協助公共工程的推動"},{"start":11653.342,"end":11671.788,"text":"但就像本席多次提出來的我們很多委員都關心了公共工程現在很難推動的原因就是都標不出去我們來看最近三年不用說一億五千萬就好了五千萬的工程以上的工程曾經流標或者是廢標的比例從69%、73%、78%逐年增加了"},{"start":11677.445,"end":11693.847,"text":"這推動了,這公共工程真的推動了很差勁,你看這樣你那麼高比例的流標,那第一個他完工的騎乘一定是往後推嘛,甚至有的根本飆不出去,像本期早上提的安平跨港大橋已經流標了10次了。"},{"start":11694.915,"end":11695.075,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":11713.131,"end":11733.029,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":11733.209,"end":11753.108,"text":"所以其實這個預算我不是說故意在跟你們討論什麼或者說跟你刁難實際上你那個留位票比例那麼高這個看了實在是以前說沒有錢不能做現在是有錢的做不了所以本期提議這個預算三一千萬凍結十分之一三個月內提報告好謝謝"},{"start":11755.433,"end":11769.885,"text":"好,選制委員。好,那謝謝主席,我是第23案。那這個流廢標的這個問題,根據工程會的資料,109年全國查核金額,採購金額5000萬以上的工程案有1114件,成流標案件是767件,占比是68.85%。11年這個查核金額以上是工程採購案1304件,"},{"start":11784.237,"end":11801.651,"text":"曾流標案件增加到1,018件,佔比78.07%。所以就這部分的話,這個非常清楚,這個差了金額以上未決標工程採購案流費標請行不僅沒有貨改善,恐怕又更惡化。"},{"start":11802.532,"end":11810.796,"text":" bicy12年上半年,差距金額以上公共工程曾流廢標的案件已經是491件,佔比是71.99%。以新竹市為例,像關埔國小體育館跟景觀工程已經流標9次。"},{"start":11821.542,"end":11843.202,"text":"那原本預計是要明年畢業典禮前完工,到現在還沒有開工。那到底要讓學生等多久才能夠享受到這個運動跟活動的空間。那就是說甚至還有就是一直流標情況之下,到最後被這個相關的中央機關還收回這個預算的這個狀況。"},{"start":11844.723,"end":11861.969,"text":"為了促使工程會加強追蹤管考未決標案件的流費標情形並且督促各機關能夠主動積極作為以有效改善流標問題。建請凍結公共工程委員會就公共工程計劃執行督導、協調及考核預算10%。"},{"start":11865.37,"end":11873.313,"text":"那就散開問題,有策定作為之後兩個月提書面報告時的動之。好,各位還沒意見。公共會說明一下好了。"},{"start":11882.777,"end":11903.237,"text":"凍結部分遵照辦理。那就林委員指示的第18案我們補充報告。第一個部分是有關於這個執行率比較低的問題。是因為我們今年這個執行率裡面有一個叫做全生命週期的這個資訊系統。那它是半年執行的。所以它的這個執行率到今年年底會達成。"},{"start":11904.298,"end":11904.318,"text":"閱讀委員會檢討。"},{"start":11930.26,"end":11953.468,"text":"有關這個部分我們建議免三件。林委員剛才講的是什麼?你前面只執行2、30%然後5、60%全部都堆到12月來解報嗎?你前面都沒有解報嗎?對不對?他指的是這個。你們所有不可能全部堆到11、12月份來解報嗎?"},{"start":11955.387,"end":11980.88,"text":"公務員員這種心態是有啦。因為我在公家機關也待了幾十年了。所以這種心態是有,但是不對啊。能夠結報的你們會計部門應該也會催吧。你們有監督部門嘛。你怎麼可能錢不用呢?你給裡面的預算你自己不用啊。林委員講以前是沒錢用,現在錢太多了嗎?給你用你用不完。"},{"start":11981.897,"end":12006.605,"text":"然後到最後在那邊消化。惡性消化。你要不要刪減一點?報告委員,補充報告。我們的這個資訊系統的付款是半年付一期。所以是年中和年底。對,你前面半年付啦。但是,所以我們前面半年付了,所以大概執行率有到46%,大概一半左右。是這個原因。委員你聽得下去嗎?訊訊人。"},{"start":12010.268,"end":12039.461,"text":"你們要看招委的脾氣我就要唬爛他了,我跟你講。第一個齁,你說那個,往正上面來也是講那句話啦,怎麼流標率高他們會改進,那是廢話。每年都講改進。你今年齁,明年還會面臨同樣的,我看居選委員明年還是在交通委員會啦齁。你會面臨同樣的質詢。你到時候你預算拿出來,你今年不算明年也會被刪掉我跟你講。"},{"start":12041.082,"end":12055.112,"text":"今年就算了啦,區議員委員也講算了,那你明年你要面對區議員委員我跟你講,我明年有沒有當召委我不知道,區議員委員不會放過你喔。不是,你明年又比今年增加10%"},{"start":12057.55,"end":12066.055,"text":"跟委員報告明年增加的這個預算是我們有一個強化資訊傳輸這個這個的韌性的這個部分。多少錢?這個部分多少錢?450萬。"},{"start":12074.989,"end":12096.315,"text":"四百五十萬是新增項目是吧?是那你預算書有沒有寫?報告委員我們在39月齁右下角最後面這個有提到所以10%所增加的四百零八萬就是準備去買這個四百五十萬的設備是不是這樣?這裡面有包括是要增加這部分是"},{"start":12098.564,"end":12099.865,"text":"25案有沒有意見?25頁的。"},{"start":12126.637,"end":12155.634,"text":"二十五案遵照辦理。遵照辦理。二十六案。二十六案遵照辦理。遵照辦理。同意。二十七案。二十七案建議修正文字。本來是併於一一三年以半年為期。我們建議修正為併於三個月內向立法院交通委員會提出書面報告。三個月。好。是。三個月。好。所以修正通過。二十八案。遵照辦理。遵照辦理通過。二十九案。遵照辦理。"},{"start":12156.124,"end":12157.525,"text":"通過30案。通過31案。通過32案。通過33案。"},{"start":12175.314,"end":12194.882,"text":"三十四我們建議修正文字就是那個如何管考提出書面報告我們改成就是要求工程會議三個月內針對該指引如何落實如何落實提出書面報告。好就修正通過35案35項修正辦理通過36案"},{"start":12199.929,"end":12220.435,"text":"好,我們回頭。二十……好,三十七案。遵照辦理。遵照辦理齁。臨時提案。臨時提案說明一下。侯孟凱委員的臨時提案一個。侯孟凱委員這個我們遵照辦理。遵照辦理齁。是。好,OK,通過齁。"},{"start":12222.383,"end":12237.352,"text":"好,工程會人員可以先行離席了。好,謝謝。好,主委辛苦了。好,我們休息五分鐘。"},{"start":12292.125,"end":12292.665,"text":"議員會主席。"},{"start":12327.464,"end":12335.513,"text":"議員報告案計6案。議員報告案計6案。"},{"start":12350.776,"end":12374.718,"text":"議員議員議員。"},{"start":12374.718,"end":12387.449,"text":"議員議員議員。議員議員。"},{"start":12387.875,"end":12413.701,"text":"二、審查112年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、處理112年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。二、審查112年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、處理112年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":12418.746,"end":12448.626,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":12463.989,"end":12470.8,"text":"議員報告案計6案。議員報告案計6案。"},{"start":12475.674,"end":12497.551,"text":"議員議員議員。議員議員。議員議員。"},{"start":12503.078,"end":12503.198,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":12510.64,"end":12533.579,"text":"議員報告案計6案。議員報告案計6案。議員報告案計6案。議員報告案計6案。議員報告案計6案。議員報告案計6案。"},{"start":12541.067,"end":12548.439,"text":"議員議員議員。"},{"start":12558.217,"end":12586.084,"text":"議員議員議員。議員議員。議員議員。"},{"start":12621.666,"end":12621.986,"text":"哎呀!"},{"start":12639.656,"end":12662.414,"text":"主委,主委,你坐啦,今天軍縣委員心情很好,你放心。軍縣委員今天心情比較高興,你沒注意看,會笑欸。他平常臭得要死啊。好,國家運輸安全調查委員會113年度單位預算,我們審議。第一個案,第一個案出國計畫。"},{"start":12667.605,"end":12688.398,"text":"昆哲委員建議凍結十分之一。你說明一下。說明一下你們。議員會說明一下。這個我們跟委員辦公室有溝通同意過改為凍結5%然後建議這個調整文字委三個月內之內提出書面報告之後再來凍結。凍結少一點是不是?對。多少錢?50萬。"},{"start":12693.499,"end":12718.492,"text":"五%?五%?百分之五?百分之五是多少?一千零九十六?百分之五?不是?因為我們一千也不多啊。多少?五十萬?好吧,你說五十就五十吧。好不好?凍結五十萬書面報告解凍。第二至三案。"},{"start":12720.103,"end":12735.776,"text":"第二案,我們也跟委員辦公室有溝通同意過改為凍結5%,這保證5%。然後,調整文字為待運讓會3個月之後,就下一個年度增加備列年度安全改善建議的系統性分析之項目及預算規劃進行書面報告之後,使得凍結。好,凍結5%。5%是800萬。"},{"start":12743.905,"end":12746.107,"text":"二至三案凍結800萬書面報告結凍。第四至14案"},{"start":12755.646,"end":12782.802,"text":"第四個我們也...欸不我審一下委員發言是是民進院委員然後數學委員、教學委員好謝謝張偉本期提第四案是我們運安會的明年度運輸事故調查預算編列1335萬2000元本期曾經提出我們運安會成立其實大家對它有很深的期望"},{"start":12784.544,"end":12806.701,"text":"郵輪會成立以來我們發現他調查的案件的型態航空類17%水路類竟然佔了快八成77%公路類8.1%水路的事故一年才個位數很少而且大部分都是意外落水公路類一年死亡人數就3000人"},{"start":12808.826,"end":12826.486,"text":"反而公路內的調查比例就是運安會的動能能量這個調查只幹8.1%這個非常明顯出了問題原因是因為公路內如果要送到運安會運安會的標準非常高要死亡3人或死傷10人以上或受傷15人"},{"start":12827.927,"end":12830.81,"text":"則公共工程委員會總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。則公共工程委員會總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":12845.988,"end":12867.549,"text":"另外最主要原因是因為運安會有一個霸王條款其實我們模仿美國聯邦運安會就是說只要運安會認為可以調查、值得調查的事故你都有霸王條款可以主動去調查就運安會在你自己的內部規定把這個霸王條款自己拿掉啦自己閹割自己啦例如啦"},{"start":12868.723,"end":12874.167,"text":"自駕車,現在有很多自駕車,自動駕駛車輛去撞到高速公路的緩撞車,你看幾乎每個月都有新聞。為什麼自駕車會突然間,電腦導引的車輛會去撞高工具的緩撞車。緩撞車很貴,租一台要一百多萬。撞到,現在緩撞車保險公司不理賠,不收,因為太常撞到了。"},{"start":12895.262,"end":12909.596,"text":"議員會也不調查因為這不在他的調查標準以內因為沒有死亡三人也沒有什麼死傷失誤人把那個標準應該調整只要你認為有調查事故的業務委員會應該負起責任應該主動調查這樣才對所以你這個預算"},{"start":12913.968,"end":12926.361,"text":"一共變成1330萬本期在第4案是提案3.2百萬凍結的部分之一請議員會提一個修訂標準的以及檢討的狀況報告才能通知謝謝。好謝謝局長委員請數位委員發言。"},{"start":12931.773,"end":12935.655,"text":"謝謝主席。那本席提的是第6案。就是針對運營會在113年度編列運輸事故調查預算總共13352,000元。那我們知道就是運營會針對各類別的交通事故然後進行調查。"},{"start":12950.646,"end":12958.81,"text":"提出建議改善事項給相關單位。提出建議事項後有待機關回覆的案件目前還有74件。各類別的列管案件大概介於7到58件之間。水路類尚未落實改善"},{"start":12974.138,"end":12997.841,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":12997.961,"end":13025.388,"text":"那所以我們也希望就是說就這個尚未落實改善的這個類別的部分我們希望運安會應該要加強跟相關的運輸機關加強溝通然後要定期追蹤確實去督促他落實改善所以這個部分本席針對這一項的預算是提出這個凍結數500萬元的凍結案那希望就是運安會提出這個書面改善的報告之後那時的動之謝謝"},{"start":13026.823,"end":13030.167,"text":"13案是針對有關運輸事故調查項的鐵道還有公路事故調查業務。"},{"start":13047.065,"end":13047.605,"text":"議員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":13066.254,"end":13066.694,"text":"議員提交書面報告。"},{"start":13094.243,"end":13099.169,"text":"案計14是針對自駕車的部分,因為許多駕駛物以為可雙手放開自駕。"},{"start":13111.445,"end":13126.489,"text":"情況造成國道追撞事故年年上升,然後據統計2021年到2023年9月底,國道施工車追撞就有279件,其中140輛有配備輔助的駕駛系統。"},{"start":13133.971,"end":13137.635,"text":"那其中60輛有開啟。所以顯見駕駛人在國道開啟輔助駕駛系統造成車禍比例不低。所以原此凍結10%的預算。"},{"start":13148.965,"end":13177.336,"text":" bicyclist 請運安會調查事故,然後主動調查ADAS先進駕駛輔助系統國道車禍案例,然後釐清舊系駕駛人雙手離開方向盤或是輔助系統出問題,然後釐清車上的責任等等,然後提書面報告,使得動之。以上。"},{"start":13178.342,"end":13197.891,"text":"好,謝謝周浩文、秦賢志委員。謝謝主席。那我有10、11、12。那10的部分就是說我國的這個道安、道路交通的事故死亡人數每年都將近死亡3000人。那這個已經從將近這麼多年來的這個狀況"},{"start":13202.313,"end":13226.207,"text":"那其實這個道路交通安全是我國運輸安全最急迫的議題之一。你可以看到說最近的砂石車啊、遊覽車等等的事故非常多,那也造成非常多的傷亡。那依據這個運安會依據運輸事故調查法的規定,調查範圍不限於運輸業。也許在行政院大力推動人本交通的政策下面,運安會也應該要檢討其他"},{"start":13228.588,"end":13246.561,"text":"道路使用者納入調查範圍,應該是要跟上整體潮流,不應持續自我限縮。為了要促使運安會強化公路事故調查範圍的量能,發揮獨立機關監督改善道路交通安全的功能,凍結運輸事故調查計畫5%。"},{"start":13251.405,"end":13280.354,"text":"那待運安會就未來如何透過調查職能強化促進道路交通安全提出具體策略提交書面報告後時的動之。那第11案的這個部分可以看到說這個三年前運安會關注的議題是說精進我國貨運業安全管理機制那在調查中已經發現了貨運業駕駛的危險駕駛的問題也要強化管理機合等等那建立一個違規旅域制度"},{"start":13280.834,"end":13301.9,"text":"當然你可以看到從109年到11年的數據在運安會調查並且提出改善建議後那這個貨運業的事故跟這個死亡人數並沒有得到改善那相較於其他的這個我們也發現說其他的大客車業遊覽車的事故也很難降下來"},{"start":13302.58,"end":13327.262,"text":"那以最近這個新澳隧道車禍的肇事者失負通運為例,兩年來的違規超速被處罰的紀錄高達41次,其中7次是嚴重超速超過20公里,那甚至還有兩次讓駕照已經註銷的駕駛還在開,駕照都註銷還在開,那其他還有等等不依規定使路來車等等之類的一大堆,"},{"start":13328.183,"end":13342.68,"text":"那這個從去年到現在總共違規了161次今年繳了46萬的滑款那完全都沒有改善那所以不管是貨音樂或是遊覽車在現在的監理機制下面"},{"start":13343.18,"end":13360.167,"text":"主管機關都沒有辦法有效的去抓到高風險的這個業者那等於是說這個常常掛一落萬抓了一個放了五個十個那為了有效的改善我國運輸業的這個交通事故的問題那所以我們希望凍結運輸事故調查預算5%"},{"start":13362.788,"end":13376.564,"text":"那就運安會兩個月內就未來運輸調查這個如何針對既有的監理不足提出減少並且參考國外的經驗其實有非常多歐洲日本等等針對業者的管理那強化"},{"start":13378.306,"end":13402.586,"text":"獲運跟客運業的違規行政處分的機制跟安全評鑑資訊公開這個改進方向然後將獲運業遊覽車的安全管理機制納入關注議題提交書面報告到委員會使得動之那第12案的這個狀況就是剛剛其實幾位委員也有提到國道緩撞車常常被撞最近其實也有發生類似這樣的狀況"},{"start":13404.682,"end":13421.837,"text":"那究竟這個國道環障催事故頻繁事故原因釐清跟檢討機制卻未被徹底的調查檢視那如此重大而且反覆一再發生的這個議題應該要納入運安會的調查範圍那也是希望調查運輸事故調查預算5%那就運安會就未來調查有關國道環障催事故的計畫提出書面報告後時的動之以上"},{"start":13431.735,"end":13453.205,"text":"好,謝謝我們委員會的委員發言。剛才委員他們其實都非常認真。我想院長會你們也聽到了。你不要說等人一定要死亡,你才去調查。重大的事故、特殊的事故,你們都要去啟動調查。請你們說明一下好不好。"},{"start":13456.719,"end":13480.471,"text":"剛剛那個,我先,先後啦齁,林軍委員剛剛推行的這個,我們的公路案件的立案例確實沒有錯。那11月2號執行,第二報告執行完之後,我們就成立一個專案小組。確實有在開始在做,已經開始定當了。然後委員所推行說那個辦完條款也開始在用了。所以從11月2號到現在我們現在已經立案例7個案。"},{"start":13481.932,"end":13496.283,"text":"委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會主管公共工程委員會"},{"start":13497.824,"end":13525.93,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13526.79,"end":13527.911,"text":"其實我們對你們也是愛之深、責之切、求好心切。"},{"start":13551.517,"end":13572.609,"text":"議案委員會給國人的意向沒有說那麼好,但也沒壞啦,也沒那麼好。對不對,我想主委你上任了嘛,起碼做點成績出來嘛。因為我們馬祖那個在基隆西岸西岸碼頭撞船事件,弄到現在,好久了才出來啊。"},{"start":13573.189,"end":13598.229,"text":"哦,這個調查中。太久了吧。要求我們這個組長說明一下。這水路的嘛。不要不要不要不要浪費時間。是。因為時間很晚了,我就提醒你們一下啦。是是。速度快一點啦。OKOK。你不要那個這個飛機你說在空中還請美國來來鑑定什麼的。這個路上的事情動作可以快一點嘛。是是。那菁姐委員妳說凍結多少?我都不敢。5%又多少?"},{"start":13604.249,"end":13611.611,"text":"二十八是多少?你說多少嘛,你講嘛。他已經離開了,你趕快講,我跟你講。凍結五趴了耶。凍五趴,五趴是多少錢啊?"},{"start":13626.866,"end":13650.838,"text":"七十萬喔?好啦,凍結10%但是我們書面報告一定會主持在上個月內。好啦,凍結10%?是是是,謝謝,謝謝委員。因為他把責任推到我這裡來,問題是他對我不爽的一下,我也很麻煩。市委員可以嗎?其實他們心裡都很善良,每個人都面善心惡,啊不,命惡心善。"},{"start":13653.157,"end":13678.217,"text":"主要還是要能夠讓運安會多多多做事啊。對啦。沒錯沒錯。公路的部分啊。因為現在這個每年的死傷這麼的嚴重。嗯。那這麼好的委員我們也希望他們明年啊都還在做審查。是是是。好不好。謝謝謝謝。一個都不要少。是是。你們大家也給我們加油一下嘛。是。好。但是凍結18日。"},{"start":13680.259,"end":13689.141,"text":"三個月提出,對,凍結書面報告案。那第6案吼。第6案吼。就第5案來是不是。就第15案,15到16案。喔,對不起。15到16案。召委那個13、14這邊沒有問題啦吼。凍結2百萬,十分之一。凍結18嘛,一起啊。對對對。就一起吧。"},{"start":13709.273,"end":13733.533,"text":"這一起嗎?這不一樣嗎?不是光基建委員的喔?全部啊?我們全部凍結他10%嗎?比你的多啊?比你那個多?好不好齁?全部凍結10%?會啦,你算一下,你凍結才64萬而已,也不止啊。那13案?13案200萬,也不止200萬嘛。10%不止200萬啊。"},{"start":13737.299,"end":13748.003,"text":"沒有啦,我們預算600多萬,重整200萬,是不是比例比較高。凍結有什麼關係啊,你解凍以後就可以用啦。是是是。那就保留喔。凍結沒有關係啦。就200萬啦。不要那第幾案,第13案凍結200萬嘛,好不好。13、13。然後14是10分之1。4到14案嘛。"},{"start":13759.659,"end":13771.382,"text":"沒有4到12,13跟14是另外的。那13另外是不是?13拉出來凍結200萬。這沒關係啦,解凍一下就好啦,有什麼呢?13案單獨拉出來,其他凍結10%。好,第15至16案。沒有第13案啊?"},{"start":13789.366,"end":13808.903,"text":"凍結200萬嘛。書面報告解凍。交往人可以嗎?可以啦可以啦。跟委員報告。不要報告啦,還報告。你覺得刪的不夠多是不是?200萬改為10%啦。蛤?200萬可不可以改為10%?10%?"},{"start":13811.98,"end":13812.34,"text":"第15至第16案"},{"start":13841.836,"end":13865.897,"text":"說明一下你們。第15我們已經。藝術系統安全分析與工程鑑定。歐珀委員跟魯明德委員凍結十分之一。有沒有意見?我們是也建議凍結。才三十二萬欸。三十二萬是什麼錢啊?對啊,所以窮單位啊。就比較。"},{"start":13869.46,"end":13869.72,"text":"第17到25案"},{"start":13883.479,"end":13889.605,"text":"我們16案喔對不起16案這裡有一個案1616不處理啦不處理喔對不起你認為要處理嗎對不起對不起我要處理我就幫你處理一下都已經幫你過了嘛好不好是17到20我們術業委員謝謝"},{"start":13901.638,"end":13929.04,"text":"好謝謝主席那本期提的是第18案就是針對應安會113年度預算編列經濟歷數事故調查量能量有3600萬元那我們知道這個無人自駕車的這個也是世界的趨勢那目前在國內就是有關在國道上這個輔助駕駛造成的這個交通事故逐漸增多那就這個部分剛剛很多委員都有"},{"start":13929.48,"end":13929.76,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":13929.76,"end":13945.232,"text":"關心那我在質詢的時候也有質詢過那就是目前因為這樣子的一個事故沒有達到我們目前運安會事故調查的一個要件就是說造成這個重大傷亡所以沒有列入這個事故調查"},{"start":13945.913,"end":13963.046,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":13963.066,"end":13981.567,"text":"我們希望,因為這個是一個未來的一個趨勢了,那我們不希望說這樣子的交通事故越來越多,希望能夠降低這樣子的交通事故。所以,建請我們運安會就是針對這種無人巴士、自駕車的事故,它的一個預防跟調查的一個部分,"},{"start":13982.208,"end":13994.339,"text":"那提出一個機制,一個標準的一個機制出來。那這部分本期是提凍結500萬元的凍結案。那提出書面報告後時的動之。謝謝。說完就凍結200萬好不好?因為他這筆預算沒多少啊。"},{"start":14005.951,"end":14005.971,"text":"決議案"},{"start":14026.451,"end":14048.226,"text":"二十六案來說明有沒有意見這沒意見啦但是這個字齁又傳出這個字是不是改為據媒體報導啊二十六欸他字二十六啊第幾行就是他的用字啦對啊你文字修正嘛第幾行來"},{"start":14051.679,"end":14067.009,"text":"第四行又傳出新任主委什麼什麼是不是改為修正為據媒體報導新任主委跟副主委喝威士忌有沒有喝嗎沒有啦那是烏龍啦那根本八卦"},{"start":14067.509,"end":14091.466,"text":"你就坦白就好了嘛。沒有嘛,就是沒有嘛。我也不會喝酒。坦白同觀啊。我就是不會喝酒,怎麼可能會喝酒啊。但業界都知道啊。是不是改為據媒體報導就好了。可不可以啊。據媒體。就誘傳出這三個字改為。好啦,據媒體報導啦。據媒體報導這樣子啦。媒體報導也不是都是真的啊。媒體報導有時候都亂寫啦。對不對,又不是有求證過。"},{"start":14092.807,"end":14098.292,"text":"二十七案。二十七案遵照辦理。遵照辦理。通過。二十八案。遵照辦理。通過。二十九案。遵照辦理。"},{"start":14121.671,"end":14122.232,"text":"有內鬥就有內鬥有什麼關係呢?"},{"start":14152.253,"end":14165.593,"text":"本來這個東西政治的東西天天都在鬥爭啊。儀式內鬥他儀式啊。他不是說有沒有意見?你要改你改什麼你講。儀這個字不要的人"},{"start":14175.627,"end":14176.227,"text":"其疑似內鬥這幾個字換掉。"},{"start":14188.574,"end":14208.209,"text":"第四那個重創機關專業學校這個是不是也可以拿掉?哪裏重創?第三行那個後面,第三行會不會重創機關專業學校重創這個東西是社會大眾的觀感嘛你覺得不是重創,我覺得是重創啊這有什麼關係呢?你怎麼改變我的意思幹嘛呢?是不是?"},{"start":14209.39,"end":14221.644,"text":"中川這沒關係啦這誰看啊你覺得有人看嗎我覺得這個拿到公報出去印一下也沒什麼人看啊好不好就這樣子啦齁"},{"start":14224.884,"end":14241.463,"text":"文字修正及疑似內鬥這幾個字換掉其他的通過了。好,三十一案。呃,尊教辦理。尊教辦理。是。三十二案。三十二案。尊教辦理通過了啊。那個專案報告要改為書面啊。改為什麼?"},{"start":14243.627,"end":14247.31,"text":"處理完畢。運安會人員可以先行離席。第8案講書面報告是吧?你們還不想走啊?"},{"start":14275.077,"end":14275.557,"text":"好,休息三分鐘。"},{"start":14318.626,"end":14320.809,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14324.415,"end":14333.62,"text":"公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。公共工程委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14352.91,"end":14377.688,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14378.617,"end":14379.318,"text":"已被駕照被註銷"},{"start":14402.033,"end":14404.695,"text":"議員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":14435.449,"end":14437.23,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14478.345,"end":14483.387,"text":"議員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":14500.212,"end":14515.483,"text":"我們這個次長齊次長是我最尊敬的次長現在審查交通部中央計像署單位預算署長我見過嗎?對不起現在年紀大了一點比較健忘"},{"start":14531.874,"end":14544.193,"text":"好各位請翻開交通部中央計算署113年度單位預算我們現在開始審議第一案吳明哲委員說明一下好不好"},{"start":14546.718,"end":14573.295,"text":"好,第一案其實是在我們設備投資因為今年增加了一些經費那在這個南部的地震海嘯的海嵐的建置還有這個我們離岸的風電的那個氣象裝主要是要support我們在綠能的設備那這個部分因為原來委員提案是是覺得說我們相關的效益寫得不清楚所以這個部分就期待說我們能夠把效益寫得更清楚一點那原來的提案是"},{"start":14573.795,"end":14591.364,"text":"三減2000萬然後凍結10%那我們希望說能夠懇請同意就是不要三減那凍結我們會提書面報告凍結多少錢?凍結10%欸!署長我請問你們在北竿那邊搞什麼飛機啊?北竿那邊有...我們馬上就北竿島啊你們要搞氣象站是不是?北竿島是要設那個雷達站"},{"start":14603.786,"end":14631.084,"text":"雷達喔?對,雷達在。軍事用途嗎?不是,氣象用途的雷達。因為你們在取光弄好大喔。對,因為主要是金馬這邊有霧,那特別是這個雷達有兩個用意,一個用意是希望能夠看到這個大陸地區比較多,那這是比較長程的雷達。另外一個雷達是叫做KA-10的雷達,它特別是對霧有偵測的能力。因為我們那邊的船隻、飛行員們都是看大陸氣候啊。"},{"start":14632.168,"end":14658.944,"text":"大陸氣候我們曾經建議說你們應該把大陸氣候容納在裡面跟對面也要有一些來往嘛你們跟共匪那邊有沒有接觸在國際上的氣象資料其實有適度的分享那細節的確沒有太多的你們有分享嗎因為國際本來就規定氣象資料要分享所以其實我們可以接收到他那邊的一部分的資料但是現在兩邊會不會來往啊"},{"start":14660.865,"end":14687.927,"text":"對可是因為他們的資料有提供到國際上那我們的資料也要提供到國際上所以在國際的平台世界信訊組織平台上面是有一些分享那當然如果我們有更好的雷達系統比如說我們的金馬雷達還有在這個在這個金馬這邊的雲霧的雷達這暗示的狀況還沒有現在在做評估也在找地做評估在找地還在找地喔"},{"start":14690.205,"end":14701.92,"text":"改天找個人來跟我說明一下好不好。好。我跟委員跟主席報告。改天找個人來跟我說明一下好不好。好。那魯明德委員不在齁。不在..."},{"start":14703.601,"end":14704.101,"text":"第一案凍結10%書面報告解凍第二次試案"},{"start":14725.717,"end":14740.316,"text":"第二次試案提案委員都不在你們說明一下好不好第二次試案其實是在我們的這個違辦費增加的違辦費的部分那因為今年增加的違辦費增加了大概1500萬左右違辦什麼"},{"start":14743.278,"end":14766.549,"text":"就是要特別強調這個部分今年在增加部分其實在過去我們有一些違範費是在譬如說有關相關的精進氣象測報技術的相關的發展這些東西今年這個增加的費用比較特別因為我們希望能夠要加強有關人工智慧還有這個機器學習的技術應用來提升我們對氣象監測預報效能的部分"},{"start":14766.769,"end":14767.529,"text":"議員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":14782.278,"end":14783.959,"text":"二之四案免三凍結10%因為大家對你們氣象署的"},{"start":14811.147,"end":14838.016,"text":"觀感越來越好了,而且很準。什麼時候下雨啊?一定下。感謝感謝。什麼時候風來了嗎?一定來。是,我們必須要繼續努力。不過,就是對我們金門馬祖的方向齁,我們看氣象,颱風朝西北西進行。哇塞,目標正對馬祖欸,我就回去等啊。居然什麼風都沒看到欸,從哪裡跑掉了不曉得。還是馬祖太小了齁。"},{"start":14839.564,"end":14860.849,"text":"這是一個不過今年其實還蠻幸運就是馬祖其實今年金門其實有受到一些影響因為他西北系他如果往上彎的時候就會到馬祖不會啦我們也不是靠你我是靠馬祖娘娘保佑我們沒靠你好啦二次試案就免三就凍結10%書面報告解凍好不好第五到25萬對好"},{"start":14865.512,"end":14881.589,"text":"第5到25案因為案子比較多所以比較稍微複雜一點那我稍微總的來講一下總的來講基本上我們大概也都跟委員辦公室做過相關的討論那這個部分是好了這凍結200萬了好不好書面報告解凍就是5到25案5到25明顯的我有提案耶"},{"start":14888.53,"end":14891.451,"text":"第9案、第16案、第21案都是陳委員有定的。"},{"start":14911.69,"end":14915.572,"text":"第9案中央計畫署在113年度有新增編列氣象數位治理與產業應用創新計畫,經費是1億4700萬元。這個是新增的一個計畫,經費也蠻龐大的。"},{"start":14930.64,"end":14950.435,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":14950.435,"end":14978.985,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14979.025,"end":14987.258,"text":"好,然後針對13、16、21,吳委員是分別提凍結案,那這部分再請績效署說明。好,謝謝。"},{"start":14988.305,"end":15008.606,"text":"好,我稍微很簡單說明一件事。那在第9案的部分就是陳委員剛剛所提到的部分有關數位氣象治理與產業用創新的計畫的確是我們新提出來一個計畫。不過在113年的部分他是依照原來在國科會他的年度剛剛計畫的形式來提出來。"},{"start":15009.287,"end":15024.455,"text":"所以後面有一個比較正式的計畫現在正在行政院審議中那這個計畫的這個目標其實是兩個大的訴求一個叫做人民安心一個叫產業創新那人民安心的部分其實完全就符合委員剛剛關心的部分就是"},{"start":15024.875,"end":15025.736,"text":" bicyclie 提供的字幕"},{"start":15044.428,"end":15044.548,"text":"第13案"},{"start":15063.63,"end":15064.431,"text":"委員提出資通營運及人工智慧機器學習技術"},{"start":15079.128,"end":15079.288,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":15099.739,"end":15123.454,"text":"一大部分是有關高速電腦的整體的相關的運作的維運的經費包含電費維護費那另外一塊部分是在整體運作裡面我們怎麼樣去運用人工智慧的技術來協助相關的發展那這個部分也是一樣就是就是懇請委員來支持就是我們會依照委員的這個指示就是凍結的部分還有這個相關提出書面報告的部分"},{"start":15124.655,"end":15139.555,"text":"最後一個部分就是還有兩案有一案是第16案委員這邊提出來的案子16案的部分是有關我們這個整個地震測報相關技術發展的部分"},{"start":15140.155,"end":15168.768,"text":"地震測報技術相關發展的部分這個部分我們大概從幾個方向來做一個方向是增加我們的地震的監測站使我們的地震發生的位置能夠落在我們監測站的範圍之內這樣子它可以提升我們偵測的速度以及我們速報的這個速度和它的準確度那怎麼樣提升整體運作的效能是委員特別關心的部分"},{"start":15169.548,"end":15184.782,"text":"委員在這邊有提了希望能夠簡列一千萬元和凍結一千萬元然後我們需要提出書面報告那這個部分要懇請委員同意免於簡列那凍結的部分和書面報告部分我們會遵照這個來執行"},{"start":15186.723,"end":15214.635,"text":"這是第16案的部分在第21案的部分委員提出來是特別針對我們台灣南部的地震海嘯海底監測系統建設計畫這個計畫的確在過去發生一些困難一部分是因為新冠疫情的關係整個供應鏈的重組還有物價的飆漲特別是它的海事工程其實還蠻複雜的"},{"start":15215.936,"end":15222.325,"text":"mentioneding the current market price and budget for the project,"},{"start":15232.5,"end":15232.88,"text":"閱讀委員會提出相關的說明。"},{"start":15262.768,"end":15282.793,"text":"希望你口才蠻不錯我看你都很熟的樣子我們有做一些功課有做功課?是是是應該要做的所有人你覺得呢?要不要給他刪?那就同意免刪那就是照凍結的部分然後提書面報告 謝謝"},{"start":15284.423,"end":15301.584,"text":"我這也很傷腦筋,我當召委一毛錢都沒刪,早上審了三個單位,一毛錢沒刪,等下上頭還以為我在幹什麼,能力比較差一點。不過氣象署真的大家對你們蠻有信心的,越做越好了。"},{"start":15302.939,"end":15316.931,"text":"這說真的,就跟我們次長以前在行政局,我代理的團隊真的很棒。我在現在對他還是,雖然沒看到人,非常尊敬。好吧,那我們5到25案,我們就凍結500萬好不好?可以嗎?"},{"start":15322.281,"end":15327.546,"text":"第二十六案。第二十六案我們合照也沒有來。大概凍結100萬你們說明一下好不好。"},{"start":15336.494,"end":15355.871,"text":"二十六案其實是的核心的精神主要是因為我們的民間在對氣象資訊就特別是有劇烈天氣的播報有的社會產會有一些誇大的部分那所以何委員希望說我們能夠提出比較清楚的這個說明用什麼樣的機制"},{"start":15356.852,"end":15357.873,"text":"二十六案凍結一百萬。二十七案。二十六案凍結一百萬書面報告。"},{"start":15377.336,"end":15405.069,"text":"二十七案凍結八十萬可以嗎?是,可以。如果可以的話就不要報告了嘛,好不好?是,對,這個部分主要是強化相關的防災費。好,二十七案凍結八十萬,書面報告解凍。那二十八案?二十八案後面總決議的部分我們全部都遵照辦理。二十八、二九、三十、三十一到多少?"},{"start":15405.973,"end":15425.645,"text":"到三十五。二十八到三十五。是。那就全部遵照辦理。是。我們就通過。好。好。對對。我知道。還沒完啦。"},{"start":15443.452,"end":15443.592,"text":"主席。"},{"start":15445.236,"end":15473.314,"text":"好協商完成做以下的宣告。一、今日協商結論均免於宣讀授權議事人員整理作為決議列入記錄。二、委員要求提供書面報告及相關資料請工程會、運安會、氣象署盡速以書面答覆。三、如有委員對於提案補簽列入記錄並刊登公表。針對今日的會議做以下的決議。一、本日預算審查結果照列或照協商結論通過。二、"},{"start":15475.171,"end":15493.339,"text":"本日通過決議文字授權主席及議事委員調整。三、113年度行政院公共工程委員會、國家運輸安全調查委員會及交通部中央氣象署等單位預算審查完畢。本日議程處理完畢。休息明日上午9時繼續開會。"},{"start":15508.223,"end":15508.844,"text":"議員報告案計6案。"},{"start":15524.244,"end":15545.317,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、處理112年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。二、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、處理112年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":15555.513,"end":15558.734,"text":"二、審查112年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":15580.003,"end":15583.471,"text":"你先用餐,辛苦,大家都這麼忙,我們是欣賞"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}