{"error":false,"id":["153178"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153178,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153178","日期":"2024-05-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-27","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":27,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-29T09:19:12+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-29T09:36:03+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:51","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331f24110cea1e630c5db3ca66b34e87331333bc5d453e1b195303c495862b7e09b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:19:12 - 09:36:03","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─暫行安置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":149,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時19分）謝謝召委，麻煩有請司法院秘書長及法務部部長。"],["主席：請秘書長、部長。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位早，因為時間的關係，我就不一一問候了。我想先請教一下法務部部長，就是目前科技偵查法的草案行政院已經處理完畢了，在整個科技偵查的手段上，我們為了要有效打擊犯罪，有必要採取科技偵查的手段來進行犯罪的偵辦，我相信這個是科技偵查法最重要的立法目的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那在處理到科技偵查法之前，有幾個基本的概念我想藉由這一次質詢的機會跟部長予以釐清。第一、依照現行法規的規定，取得特定人手機定位的資訊，它的法定程序是如何？可不可以請部長說明一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：手機定位這部分，我是不是可以黃次長代為回答？"],["黃委員國昌：可以。部長，你應該要很熟啊，你已經當到檢察長了耶。沒有關係啦，次長，我不為難部長，請！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，按照現行通保法的規定，我們有調取票的規定，可以去調取相關的……"],["黃委員國昌：所謂調取票的規定是，你對於特定人藉由他的手機訊號到底在哪裡這件事情，是不是法官保留的事項？"],["黃次長謀信：目前是，除了緊急狀況或者特定犯罪，可以加快處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們來看一下，定位手機使用的位置是屬於通保法的通訊監察，沒有錯吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，因為是屬於通保法的通訊監察，所以我們今天如果要跟特定的電信業者去調取某人的手機位置在什麼地方，我們要取得其基地台的資訊，是不是要由法官核發調取票，才可以跟電信業者調取這些資訊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前是這樣。"],["黃委員國昌：目前是這樣嘛，好，如果沒有法官核發的調取票，電信業者違法提供基地台的資訊，包括手機定位的資訊，違反通保法第幾條的規定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個……"],["黃委員國昌：我答案都幫你寫了，所以就請部長回答，好嗎？我沒有要考你法條啊，所以我把通保法的規定一條一條都做在PPT上，就是沒有要考部長法條，是不是可以請部長回答違反通保法第幾條的規定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：第二十四條，委員寫的是第二十四條。"],["黃委員國昌：那如果在執行通訊監察的從業人員假藉職務上或業務上的權力、機會或方法犯前項之罪，六個月以上五年以下有期徒刑，沒有錯吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個法條是這樣寫的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，因為這個樣子，我們現在傳統的方法是跟電信業者調取基地台的資訊。如果我們繞一個道，不透過電信業者，透過M化車去取得已經知道的IMEI或IMSI，就是手機或是卡片上的資訊，定位他所要偵查的對象，因為我們最高法院的判決認為這個會影響到目標所在對象的位置資訊，這牽涉到個人隱私、個人資訊重大的侵害，所以我們必須要有法律保留原則，沒有錯吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，就是因為這樣，所以科技偵查法草案第三條的規定才會跟通保法一樣，原則上都採取法官保留原則，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：第三條的話是屬於GPS這部分，它有短時間的、沒有超過24小時或者期間未達二日這部分，檢察官和司法警察可以短期的來採這樣一個科技偵查手段。"],["黃委員國昌：那超過那個時間呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那就法官保留。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們把現行法的規範，以及未來我們在科技偵查法裡面的規範定位清楚以後，接下來出現了一個讓我沒有辦法理解的問題。什麼叫做沒有辦法理解的問題？為什麼民主進步黨的高層他可以取得大規模的手機定位資訊來加以分析？請注意喔，這個不是單一的事件、單一的時間、單一的場所去識別化以後的商業分析資料！這個是涉及到不同的時間、不同的地點，交叉分析使用者的個人資訊，你要做cross reference才會知道在A時間甲地點、B時間乙地點、C時間丁地點，這三群人是不是同一群人，做這樣子的分析。我現在的問題來了，這種資訊是不是我們現行法所保護的個人資訊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是屬於個人的資訊。"],["黃委員國昌：是不是受到現行法律所保護？是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果法律有保護的話，當然要保護。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那我的問題來囉，他如何取得大規模的這樣的資訊？電信業者可以合法提供這種資訊嗎？請教部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對這個個案我並不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：你不需要知道個案！我剛剛是跟你講，我們抽象地來講，竟然有人可以大規模地取得在A時間甲地點、B時間乙地點、C時間丙地點，三群人大家的手機定位資訊，還知道他的年齡喔！可以做cross reference，然後去具體地講，經過分析，這是三群不同的人，這是很可怕的事情喔！因為所有手機使用者大家關心的第一個問題是：這種資訊從何而來？除了電信業者可以取得以外，依照現行法還有誰可以取得？請教部長，通訊保障及監察法裡面寫得很清楚，除了電信業者有這樣的資訊以外，還有誰可以取得？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個依通保法的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：當然是依通保法的規定，所以我才請教部長。只有三種狀況，一個是電信業者有；第二個是檢察官偵辦犯罪的時候取得；第三個是國安監察，除了這三種狀況以外，還有其他的狀況嗎？請教部長。我現在在想的是，就我對於這些資訊的掌控、保管以及取得，我有沒有漏掉其他的狀況，是否還有其他的方法可以合法取得的？請教部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個個案……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在沒有在跟你講個案，我現在在跟你講抽象的法律問題；當然，抽象的法律問題如何涵攝到個案、要不要偵辦，這個就看檢察官的良心了。檢察官職權上知道有犯罪嫌疑的時候，要不要依法啟動調查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要有事實注意認定。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，當這個人公開聲稱他有這些資訊，可以進行交互的比對，分析使用者位置資訊的不同，還知道他們的年齡，這個會牽涉到他怎麼合法取得這個資訊的問題啊。如果這樣的事實還不夠明確，連使用者都大剌剌地講了：我有啊，我還取得了交互分析的資料。這個時候檢察官該不該介入調查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分如果有訴訟法第二百二十八條的情狀的話，檢察官就會啟動調查。"],["黃委員國昌：你認為這有沒有訴訟法第二百二十八條的情狀？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個個案我就不評論。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，我今天公開檢舉，我今天公開檢舉，我不是那種會去私下關說司法的人，對於檢察官、對於法官，我作為一個法律人，我非常地尊重，我非常地尊重，我絕對不會去做那種私下施壓或是不法關說的行為。我今天在司法及法制委員會，我從通保法的規範、從個資法的規範，我公開檢舉這件事情，請檢察官發揮法律人的良知良能，一定要澈底調查這件事，太離譜了！這是國家監控嗎？這個是不肖的電信業者提供的資訊？還是有人在進行國安監察的時候，不法地外露這個資訊，給法律上沒有權利知道、使用這個資訊的人使用？這顯然有犯罪嫌疑啊！我今天利用這個公開的場合，我公開檢舉，希望檢察官依法調查。您是部長，我知道你處理行政上面的事情，檢察官的個案偵查屬於檢察官個案偵查的權責嘛，但是在法律上面的規定一定要講得清清楚楚，要不然每一個使用手機的人，他去哪裡、參加什麼活動，竟然可以被一個莫名其妙、根本不是公務員的人知道，部長，你不覺得這件事情很誇張嗎？部長，你不覺得這件事情很誇張嗎？還是你覺得這很正常啊？覺得我們國家就是這樣啊，這件事情再正常不過了，哪有什麼犯罪嫌疑，何必要檢察官介入調查？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果說有第二百二十八條的情狀，檢察官就會依法來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我認為有第二百二十八條的情狀，我現在公開地告發，我現在公開地告發，我希望檢察官可以聽到我今天公開的告發。","接下來請秘書長。之前我請教過秘書長，我們現在的刑事訴訟法有依法必須要自請迴避及申請迴避兩種事由嘛。"],["吳秘書長三龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：絕對沒有施壓迴避這種事嘛。"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然沒有施壓迴避。"],["黃委員國昌：當然沒有施壓迴避，我也知道沒有施壓迴避，但法律上面不允許施壓迴避，我們要檢驗現實上面有沒有施壓迴避這件事。上次我利用質詢秘書長的時間，我公開檢舉了這件事情，有一個金融重犯，他非常有辦法，非常有辦法，可能是炒TDR錢賺太多，他可以找立法委員幫他的個案推動修法，甚至在他自己的刑事訴訟案件當中，可以讓高等法院的上級長官去施壓承審的法官，要求承審的法官迴避。我上次公開檢舉這件事情以後，臺灣高等法院發新聞稿澄清說，我在立法院質詢的時候，提到本院前行政庭長曾向案件之承審法官施壓要求上簽自請迴避，純屬誤會。我那時候就公開請教過什麼事情純屬誤會？是沒有這件事情，我黃國昌在司法及法制委員會詢答的時候，我胡說八道？還是有這件事情，但是他認為這不是施壓？因此我們就請司法院做了調查報告，看一下這個調查報告。2022年8月2號，這是你們調查報告上面自己寫的，這個庭長打電話給這個法官，這個法官說：洪庭長跟我說他與李院長討論過了，李院長指示要我上簽自請迴避。院長可以指示承審法官上簽自請迴避嗎？請教一下秘書長，依照現行刑事訴訟法的規定，高等法院的院長可不可以指示承審法官自請迴避？"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，我們有向司法及法制委員會提出我們的調查結果，書面裡面有詳細細述……"],["黃委員國昌：我知道啦，你們調查報告我看過，你不用複述啦。我覺得你們的調查報告在文過飾非，英文叫做sugarcoat，所以我才要一件一件跟你釐清楚嘛，我們法律人依法論法、討論清楚。院長可以指示承審法官上簽自請迴避嗎？這個是我的問題。"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，我們在這個書面調查報告裡面有詳細說明，當時洪院長還有李院長是出於關心、保護來建議紀法官……"],["黃委員國昌：所以到底是關心還不是關心？你牽涉到的完全是個人主觀動機的問題嘛！"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是只是因為要……"],["黃委員國昌：因為召委站起來了，我要尊重召委跟下一個質詢的委員。","我最後一個問題，所以按照司法院的標準，只要基於關心，上級的院長就可以指示下級的法官上簽自請迴避，現在司法院的標準是這樣嗎？我只要問這個問題就好。"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，這個是司法院綜合各種資料審慎綜合判斷的結果，認為……"],["黃委員國昌：我沒有問你最後認定的結果是什麼，我只問你，現在司法院的標準是不是只要院長出於關心，就可以要求承審的法官上簽自請迴避？我的問題就這麼簡單。"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為當時按照臺灣高等法院分案實施要點第十點第四款，就是說當時臺高院法官會議就法官有自行迴避事由之外，其他可能有偏頗之虞的情形，事先以這個抽象規定，得由院長來酌情准予法官……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，你現在講到另外一個抽象規定說院長這個時候可以介入，時間的關係，下一次遇到司法院秘書長的時候，我再進一步請教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。下一位我們請鍾佳濱召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-27","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","陳俊宇","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─ 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沒有錯吧這個法條是這樣寫的好"},{"start":212.895,"end":240.563,"text":"因為這個樣子我們現在傳統的方法是跟電信業者調取資訊台的資訊碼那如果我們繞一個道我們不透過電信業者我們透過M化車去取得已經知道的IMEI或IMSI就是手機或者是他的卡片上面的資訊定位他所要偵查的對象因為我們最高法院的判決認為"},{"start":243.205,"end":256.024,"text":"這個會去影響到目標所在對象的位置資訊那這個牽涉到個人隱私個人資訊重大的侵害所以我們必須要有法律保留原則沒有錯吧"},{"start":257.564,"end":281.915,"text":"好那就是因為這個樣子啊所以科技偵查法草案第三條的規定才會跟通保法一樣我們原則上面啊都採取法官保留原則對不對第三條的話是屬於GPS這部分他有短時間的在沒有超過24小時或者是期間未達兩日的這部分那個是檢察官、司法警察"},{"start":282.715,"end":287.898,"text":"我們把現行法的規範以及未來我們在科技偵查法裡面的規範我們定位清楚以後我接下來出現了一個讓我沒有辦法理解的問題"},{"start":304.028,"end":317.984,"text":"什麼叫做沒有辦法理解的問題啊為什麼民主進步黨的高層他可以取得大規模的手機定位資訊來進行家語分析請注意喔"},{"start":319.165,"end":345.012,"text":"這個不是單一的事件單一的時間單一的場所去識別化以後啊的商業分析資料這個是涉及到不同的時間不同的地點交叉分析使用者的個人資訊你要做這個cross reference嘛你才有知道說在A時間假地點B時間已地點C時間"},{"start":347.396,"end":359.28,"text":"釘地點這三群人是不是同一群人做這樣子的分析我現在的問題來了這種資訊是不是我們現行法所保護的個人資訊這個是屬於個人的資訊是不是受到現行法律所保護是不是"},{"start":373.57,"end":400.98,"text":"法律有保護的話當然要保護好 那我的問題來囉他如何取得大規模的這樣子的資訊電信業者可以合法提供這種資訊嗎請教部長對這個個案我並不清楚你不需要知道個案我剛剛是跟你講我們抽象的來講竟然有人可以大規模的取得在A時間假地點"},{"start":402.185,"end":420.538,"text":"B時間乙地點C時間丙地點三群人大家的手機定位資訊還知道他的年齡喔可以做Course Reference喔去具體的講經過分析這是三群不同的人"},{"start":421.858,"end":446.827,"text":"這是很可怕的事情喔因為所有手機使用者大家關心的第一個問題是說這種資訊從何而來除了電信業者可以取得以外依照現行法還有誰可以取得請教部長通緝監察保障法裡面寫得很清楚啦除了電信業者有這樣的資訊以外還有誰可以取得"},{"start":448.699,"end":468.643,"text":"這個依通保法的規定當然是依通保法的規定所以我才請教部長嘛只有三種狀況嘛一個是電信業者有嘛阿第二個是檢察官偵辦犯罪的時候取得嘛第三個是什麼國安檢查嘛除了這三種狀況以外還有其他的狀況嗎請教部長請教部長"},{"start":474.246,"end":487.982,"text":"我現在在想的是就我對於這些資訊的掌控保管以及取得我也沒有漏掉其他的狀況還有其他的方法可以合法取得的請教部長"},{"start":494.381,"end":518.253,"text":"這個我們...這個個案...個案...我現在沒有在跟你講個案啊我現在在跟你講抽象的法律問題啊當然抽象的法律問題如何含涉...如何含涉到個案要不要偵辦這個就看檢察官的良心了檢察官職權上知道有犯罪嫌疑的時候要不要依法啟動調查這個要事實主義認定對嘛"},{"start":525.112,"end":551.728,"text":"當這個人公開的聲稱啊他有這些資訊可以進行交互的比對分析使用者位置資訊的不同還知道他們的年齡這個會牽涉到他怎麼合法取得這個資訊的問題啊如果這樣的事實還不夠明確連使用者大剌剌的都講了我有啊"},{"start":553.598,"end":569.928,"text":"我還取得了交互分析的資料這時候檢察官該不該介入調查這部分如果說有訴訟法245條那個228條的一個情況的話那檢察官就會啟動調查你認為這有沒有訴訟法228條的情況這個案我就不評論好沒有關係我今天公開檢舉"},{"start":581.67,"end":608.497,"text":"我今天公開檢舉我不是那種阿會去私下關說司法的人阿我對於檢察官對於法官我作為一個法律人我非常的尊重阿我非常的尊重我絕對不會去做那種私下施壓或是不法關說阿的行為我今天在司法法制委員會我從通保法的規範從各自法的規範我公開檢舉這件事情"},{"start":611.797,"end":638.987,"text":"請檢察官發揮法律人的良知良能一定要徹底調查這件事啊太離譜啦這是國家監控嗎這個是不肖的電信業者提供的資訊還是有人在進行國安監察的時候不法的外露這個資訊給法律上沒有權力"},{"start":640.174,"end":668.009,"text":"知道使用這個資訊的人使用這顯然有犯罪嫌疑啊我今天利用這個公開的場合我公開檢舉希望檢察官依法調查您是部長我知道你處理行政上面的事情嘛檢察官的個案偵查屬於檢察官個案偵查的權責嘛但是我們法律上面的規定啊一定要講得清清楚楚要不然每一個使用手機的人"},{"start":669.127,"end":679.713,"text":"他去哪裡 參加什麼活動竟然可以被一個莫名其妙根本不是公務員的人知道部長 你不覺得這件事情很誇張嗎部長你不覺得這件事情很誇張嗎還是你覺得 這很正常啊"},{"start":690.782,"end":717.116,"text":"我們國家就是這樣啊這件事情再正常不過了哪有什麼犯罪嫌疑何必要檢察官介入調查部長如果說有228條的那個檢察會就會依法來處理好我認為有228條的規定我現在公開的告發我現在公開的告發我希望檢察官可以聽到我今天公開的告發來接下來請秘書長"},{"start":720.697,"end":730.347,"text":"之前我請教郭秘書長我們現在的刑事訴訟法有依法必須要自行迴避有申請迴避兩種事有嗎?絕對沒有施壓迴避這種事嗎?"},{"start":738.98,"end":760.837,"text":"當然沒有施壓迴避我也知道沒有施壓迴避但法律上面不允許施壓迴避我們要檢驗現實上面有沒有施壓迴避這件事上次我利用質詢秘書長的時間我公開檢舉了這件事情有一個金融重犯他非常有辦法非常有辦法可能是炒TDR錢賺太多"},{"start":761.957,"end":786.566,"text":"他可以找立法委員幫他的個案推動修法甚至在他陳審他自己刑事訴訟的案件當中可以讓什麼可以讓我們高等法院高等法院的上級長官去施壓陳審的法官要求陳審的法官回避我上次公開檢舉這件事情了以後"},{"start":787.626,"end":815.417,"text":"然後台灣高等法院澄清新聞稿說說我在立法院執行的時候提到本院前行政庭庭長呈現案件的陳審法官施壓要求上千字請迴避純屬誤會我那時候就公開請教過啊什麼事情純屬誤會是沒有這件事情我黃國昌在司法法制委員會尋答的時候我胡說八當"},{"start":816.693,"end":826.442,"text":"還是有這件事情但是他認為這不是施壓因此我們就請司法院做了調查報告來看一下這個調查報告"},{"start":828.908,"end":855.547,"text":"2022年8月2號這你們調查報告上面自己寫的喔這個庭長打電話給這個法官說紅庭長跟我說他跟李院長討論過了李院長指示我要上千啊自請迴避院長可以指示陳審法官上千自請迴避嗎來請教一下秘書長依照現行刑事訴訟法的規定高等法院的院長可不可以指示"},{"start":857.081,"end":885.669,"text":"陳審法官自請迴避向委員說明吼這個就我們有向我們司法法制委員會提出我們的這個調查調查結果啦吼調查結果這個書面吼裡面有詳有詳細細數吼我知道啦你們調查報告我看過你不用複述啦我覺得你們的調查報告在文過是非啊"},{"start":886.772,"end":895.503,"text":"英文叫做sugar code所以我才要一件一件跟你理清楚嘛我們法律人依法論法討論清楚啊"},{"start":896.584,"end":917.577,"text":"院長可以指示陳審法官上千次請迴避嗎?這個是我的問題啊這個向委員說明我們在這個書面調查報告裡面有詳細說明當時是這個洪院長還有李院長是出於關心保護來建議紀法官"},{"start":920.439,"end":931.348,"text":"所以到底是關心還不是關心你牽涉到的完全是什麼個人主觀動機的問題嘛就是只是因為要所以我現在因為"},{"start":932.608,"end":933.508,"text":"這個向委員說明這個是司法院綜合各種資料齁"},{"start":956.338,"end":959.139,"text":"因為當時按照這個台灣高等法院分案實施要點這個第10點第4款就是說"},{"start":983.621,"end":1011.417,"text":"是當時這個臺高院法官會議喔就法官有自行迴避事由之外啊那其他可能有偏頗之餘的情形喔那事先以這個抽象規定得由院長來好沒有關係喔剛剛你現在講到另外一個抽象規定說院長這個時候可以介入時間的關係我們下一次遇到司法院秘書長的時候啊我再進一步請教謝謝謝謝黃委員那下一位"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}