{"error":false,"id":["153189"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153189,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153189","日期":"2024-05-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-29T09:47:39+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-29T09:58:05+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:26","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13314d36d7941d37f319243e47098157e4f6333bc5d453e1b19579e30822738802ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:47:39 - 09:58:05","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":174,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時47分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早。恭喜你！我是嘉義人，嘉義最近有一個重要的事情，就是阿里山，阿里山是我們嘉義的驕傲，也是整個臺灣的驕傲，它的森林鐵道是國際級的觀光鐵道，7月1日馬上要全線通車了，這對整個嘉義跟整個臺灣，甚至吸引很多國際的旅客來臺灣，讓世界看到臺灣是非常重要的。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：所以第一個，7月1日如期通車；第二個，安全也很重要。所以本席的辦公室成立了阿里山光榮的團隊，我們這幾天實際去勘察，每一站、每一站去勘察它是不是安全的。部長，我給你看一下，有些地方的安全真的要趕快去捕破網，我給你看實際的勘查狀況。你看這一張，有沒有發現鐵道在震動？部長注意看，我們阿里山的火車過去的時候，鐵道是在震動的，這是有危險的，鐵道為什麼會震動？下面被掏空了、上面的釘子脫落了、中間的也出了狀況，上中下都有問題。你看！釘子是要固定它的，結果都已經浮起來了。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明一下，鐵路經過的時候，它一定要有某個程度的震動，當然沒有錯，所以它的震動，有一些鉚釘本身會有一些間隙讓它當作一個震動。但是我想委員所關心的是安全，所以我們一定會在全線的部分，用人力的方式逐一地再去檢查一次。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在的問題出在哪裡？我再給你看一次，它下面是不是被掏空了？你有沒有發現？鐵道就算再怎麼震動，下面也不應該掏空啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我說我們會重新檢查。"],["張委員啓楷：你剛剛看的那個釘子，釘子一個是下面，它本身被掏空了，上面是做什麼？釘子就是讓它固定的嘛！釘子也浮起來了啊！中間就是枕木，你看枕木已經斷掉了。"],["陳部長駿季：我是不是可以請……"],["張委員啓楷：上、中、下全部都有狀況了。"],["陳部長駿季：通車前我們一定會去全線檢查。我請林業及自然保育署署長講一下。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先跟你講一下，這個地方，我把地點給你，這是北門車站，就是起點的那個地方，這是我們阿里山光榮團隊特別注意到的，我們希望可以吸引很多觀光客進來，讓阿里山是有光榮的，可是安全一定要注意。我現在已經很清楚跟你講了，在北門車站附近的這個鐵道釘子浮起來了，中間的枕木斷掉了，下面掏空了，這是第一個。","我再給你看第二個畫面，第二個畫面是竹崎到樟腦寮爬升的路段，你看不只是枕木斷掉，大家看這個畫面，有一點怵目驚心。下面是積水了，就是它的排水出了狀況嘛！所以你看！本來這個枕木應該整個是橫的，要橫在那邊，它已經泡到斷掉，而且也移位了，最嚴重的就是它的排水，這個路段是竹崎到樟腦寮爬升的路段，這個馬上去處理，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛講的那兩個都是非常危險的。當然，我相信你們有能力可以去解決，可是一定要快，好不好？馬上做。"],["陳部長駿季：可以，我想我們會後可能就會叫林務署相關人員馬上過去巡檢一次。"],["張委員啓楷：好，會後馬上過去。"],["陳部長駿季：安全一定是最重要的。"],["張委員啓楷：對。另外再來看一下阿里山落石的問題，邊坡的安全也是非常、非常重要的。還記得嗎？去年4月差一點就發生意外了，你看那個石頭掉到中間來，還好有遊客很機靈下來趕快揮手，可是你不能每次都靠遊客去揮手啊！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：也不能碰運氣啊！所以我看你今天報告的第7頁，你說要導入創新AI的技術，提升災害的監測預警，這個就是創新AI技術，提升災害的監測系統嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這其實應該是之前就應該要做的事情，對不對？目前是做到哪裡？我先給你看一下，我為什麼要提醒你去年的這個事情？你看一下，就在昨天，阿里山這個邊坡還有落石，這是昨天的畫面喔！也是我們光榮團隊拍回來的畫面，到昨天都還有，那我就要問你兩個很重要的事情。你本來說所謂AI邊坡的這個監測系統，現在到底是做到什麼程度了？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們現在AI的監測系統大概分為兩個面向，一個面向是在農業生產端，一個在土石流跟大規模崩塌的潛勢區，我希望未來不只是在兩個地區，包括我之前也強調的，相關鐵路的邊坡，其實它可能不是一個很高風險的崩塌地，但是它一旦崩塌就會對整個遊客的安全有影響，所以我也會要求他們在整個森林鐵道的兩周，可能造成的……因為他們土石專家會瞭解，對於可能會造成崩塌的地方，去埋設相關的感應器。"],["張委員啓楷：你是說有可能崩塌的地方都要設，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，不是所有的地方都要設，也不是定期……因為土的質地跟它的角度，我想農村發展及水土保持署是有專業的，他們會針對比較有可能的部分去做相關監測點的埋設。"],["張委員啓楷：好。"],["陳部長駿季：還有增加一些攝影機，影像的部分，怎麼透過這樣的資訊，讓駕駛的人能夠更清楚地瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：好，我提醒一下，其實去年陳建仁陳院長去搭福森號試車的時候，隔天它就出軌了，對不對？所以老實講，這個危險都還是存在的，可是我們不怕問題，一定要面對問題，提早發現問題，趕快去解決。","我幫大家做個整理，你看這個圖，阿里山光榮團隊去做實測之外，發現了幾個問題，第一個有些地方的枕木已經位移了，道釘已經浮起來了，道渣排水不良，導致枕木已經泡水了。另外還有一個地方要特別注意，我們實地去拍攝，發現有些地方的鐵軌有些臭味，而且地方還不少，地點我會給你，你要全面去清一次，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會。"],["張委員啓楷：要具體去做這些事情。來，我們看一下下面這一張，要具體去做，包括全線的道渣跟枕木一定要定期去調查，就我們目前瞭解，你們的時間好像拉得很長，對不對？能不能比較密集一點去做個檢查？你不要每次發生問題，頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳。","第二個，你剛剛講的這個人工巡軌系統，AI的這一塊要趕快去做好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：而且你要給我一個報告，就是你目前到底在哪些地方？能不能確保這個是安全的？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，我提一個非常、非常重要的問題，就像昨天發生的那個問題，東西掉下來、落石掉下來，對不對？你們現在整個通報的流程是怎麼樣？時間會不會花很多？誰去處理？像昨天我給你看的那個畫面……"],["陳部長駿季：是我們林業及自然保育署的人員去處理的。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：是我們相關林業及自然保育署的同仁去處理的。"],["張委員啓楷：鐵道這邊的主管機關是報給誰？林務署？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，阿里山鐵道是我們管理的，所以它邊坡的部分如果遇到有一些東西也是我們同仁去處理的。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，所以等一下，今天下午就趕快去現場，把剛剛講的問題，補破網趕快把它補起來，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：然後在一個禮拜內，你給我一份報告，就是剛剛講的這些，你要怎麼去強化，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，兩個禮拜好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：OK。"],["陳部長駿季：兩個禮拜可不可以？"],["張委員啓楷：好，兩個禮拜可以，最重要的是等一下趕快去啦！我剛剛跟你講的這些都是非常重要的。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，巡檢一定會立刻去做，而且是每天會巡，我們會把我們巡的機制跟委員說明，所以包括剛才講到AI的部分、包括整個防護的部分，我想希望能有一個更具體的方案提供給委員。"],["張委員啓楷：對，一定要拜託一下，7月1號通車的時候，要確保是安全的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：而且要擦亮阿里山的這個光榮，不只是嘉義，要讓整個臺灣，在國際上都看到臺灣人的驕傲，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員提醒。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，我用一點點小時間問一下，上禮拜我們做了雞蛋的這個，我要求3個東西。第一個，你這個影像已經有做了，影像這部分你做了；第二個，4月底之前你要交付報告給經濟委員會各項的細目，結果你送到本席辦公室才2頁而已耶！你怎麼只送2頁？再看一下下一張，你才給我2頁啊！我那天要求的是什麼？第一個，過期雞蛋採購金額的詳細列表，包括你的批次、進口國、數量、進口日期、到岸的價格，我記得之前都有做過啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：你要給我這個東西，好不好？要最新的。第二個，要提供我倉儲費用裡面的各項費用明細，包括年度跟批次，好不好？你不能只給我這2張。我跟你說，昨天國會改革方案過了，很多立委朋友都在講，要成立的第一個就是超思的調查專案小組。我希望你們可以趕快把很完整的資料給我們，不要弄到後來變成是你要成立一個調查小組，變成農業部是第一個被調查的，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝部長，我們一起加油！多謝，真相要給啦！要有真相才能夠解決問題，多謝，謝謝部長。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：非常感謝張委員這麼理性的問政，這就是我們要的，也謝謝部長。","接下來我們請邱議瑩委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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這其實應該是 前陣子什麼都要做的事情對不對 這麼不小心做到最後 我先給你看一下我為什麼提醒去年這個事情 你看一下 昨天就在昨天就在昨天 愛里山這個邊坡 還有落石喔 這是昨天的委員喔這是我們光榮團隊拍回來的這個畫面 昨天都還有"},{"start":309.178,"end":337.981,"text":"那我要問你兩個很重要的事情你本來說所謂的AI的這個邊坡的這個監測系統你現在到底做到什麼程度阿我跟委員說明喔我們現在的那個AI的監測系統大概分為兩個面向一個面向是在農業生產端一個在土石流跟大規模崩塌的潛勢區那我希望說未來不只是在兩個地區包括我之前也強調就是說相關的那個鐵路的邊坡其實我們它可能不是一個"},{"start":338.942,"end":338.962,"text":"﹚張啓楷"},{"start":356.883,"end":357.884,"text":"我提醒一下,其實去年"},{"start":387.581,"end":412.17,"text":"陳建仁陳院長他去試搭這個無聲號的試測的時候桂登岡就出軌了對不對所以這個老講這個危險都還是存在的可是我們不怕問題一定要面對問題提早發現問題趕快去解決我幫大家做個整理阿里山光榮團隊去做了實測之外發現了幾個問題第一個有些地方的枕木已經位移了稻町已經浮起來了"},{"start":413.715,"end":414.015,"text":"稻渣跟枕木"},{"start":435.267,"end":459.396,"text":"一定要去全線要定期這個調查我目前瞭解你們這個時間好像拉得很長對不對能不能比較密集一點去做個檢查你不要每次發生問題頭痛一頭腳痛一腳第二個你剛講這個人工巡迴這個系統這個AI這一塊要趕快去做好不好而且你給我個報告就是你目前到底在哪些地方能不能確保這個是安全的另外另外我提一個非常非常重要的這個問題"},{"start":460.779,"end":473.378,"text":"每天就像昨天發生那個問題東西掉下來、落石掉下來對不對?你們現在是什麼?那個整個通報的流程是怎麼樣?時間會不會花得很多?誰去處理?像昨天我剛才在看的那位秘密"},{"start":474.741,"end":491.54,"text":"就我們林業保育署的人員去處理的我們相關的林業保育署的同仁去處理的鐵道這邊主管機關然後是報給誰阿里山鐵道是我們管理的所以他編播的部分如果遇到有些東西也是我們同仁去處理的"},{"start":492.06,"end":505.877,"text":"好,OK,所以等一下我們今天下午就趕快去現場把剛剛講的問題,把它補破網,趕快把它補起來,好不好?然後另外一個禮拜內你給我一份報告,就是剛剛講的這些你要怎麼去強化,好不好?好,兩個禮拜好不好?兩個禮拜可不可以?"},{"start":507.83,"end":525.744,"text":"好,兩個禮拜可以,最重要是等一下趕快去啦我剛剛跟你講的都是非常重要的尋檢一定會立刻去做而且每天會尋我們會把我們尋的那個機制跟委員說明所以包括剛才講的AI的部分包括整合防護的部分我想希望有一個具體的一個方案是提供給委員的"},{"start":526.665,"end":553.493,"text":"一定要拜託一下去過伊河通車的時候確保是安全的而且擦亮這個阿里山的這個光榮就是嘉義讓整個臺灣讓國際上都看到臺灣人的這個驕傲好不好我用一點點小時間問一下上禮拜我們做了這個雞蛋這個我要求三個東西第一個你這個影像已經有做了影像這部分你做了可是呢第二個說4月底之前你要交付報告給經濟委員會各項的這個細目結果"},{"start":556.533,"end":564.6,"text":"你送到本期辦公室才兩頁而已你怎麼只有送兩頁?看一下下一張你才給我兩頁啊我那天要求的是什麼?"},{"start":566.328,"end":592.562,"text":"第一,過期雞蛋採購的金額：詳細的列表：包括什麼：你的批次、進口國、數量：進口日期、到案的價格：我會記得你之前在做過啊：你應該給我這個東西啊：好不好：最新的、最新的：第二,提供我倉儲費用裡面的各項費用的明細：包括年度跟批次：好不好：你不能只有給我這兩張喔：我會講喔：昨天國會改革方案過了：很多禮物都在"},{"start":594.022,"end":620.154,"text":"很多立委朋友都在過曝說要成立的第一個就是超時的調查專案小組了我問問說你資料趕快給我們很完整 不然弄到後來變成是要成立一個調查小組 變成是農業部是第一個被調查的好不好好好謝謝部長 好我們請你加油 真相要給好不好要有真相才能夠解決問題 謝謝部長好非常感謝 你看我們章委員這麼理性問真這是屬於我們要的 也謝謝部長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}