{"error":false,"id":["153191"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153191,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153191","日期":"2024-05-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-27","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":27,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-29T09:49:24+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-29T10:02:28+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:04","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331eff7482ecc00f67adb3ca66b34e87331333bc5d453e1b195446cbe90ca178f225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:49:24 - 10:02:28","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─暫行安置與監護處分制度及執行機構場域安全之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":295,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時49分）謝謝召委。有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：司法院秘書長吳秘書長也請上來一下。"],["主席：秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要先就教鄭部長。我想上個禮拜臺灣其實算是不太平靜，當然不是指我們立法院，立法院這個競技場　本來就是司空見慣。上個禮拜我們看到除了中捷的砍人事件以外，讓社會相當恐慌的就是另外一位受監護處分人從基隆某間醫院脫逃以後，在北部地方流竄。我相信這一定是造成一些恐慌，才讓臺北市有一些學校暫停開放，幸好到最後是落網了！但是同時這個個案也透露了讓國人意識到監護處分到底有哪些地方必須再去補破網。這次的個案，法院依殺人未遂判處3年，然後在執行刑法前先進行5年的監護，全案定讞以後交由臺北地檢署去執行，今年3月排到基隆某精神醫院進行監護。這個程序看起來好像都很順暢，但是社會上很多案例看起來其實不像我們所看到的這樣子。也就是說，一個人是不是受監護的處分，要等法官判決；判決確定以後，檢察官再按照情況去找適合的處遇機構。我想請教部長的就是你們認為現在最大的問題出在什麼地方？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前我認為最大的問題就是因為監護處分的確是以醫療照顧來代替，就是把它的屬性界定在病人這個主體，但是因為我們現在醫療這部分的醫療處所資源還不夠，而且最主要就是有意收治監護處分的醫院意願不高，另外就是有充分資源的醫院，我們有去瞭解，它們的意願也是不高的。我們也擔心意願高的收治處所的醫療資源，尤其是安全維護措施是不是足夠，這部分我們也是要比較擔心的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，一定是不夠。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們才會由行政院統籌籌設司法精神病房醫院……"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個速度要建置其實還有很長一段路要走。","我請教秘書長，譬如說法官下了一個判決，下完了以後，接下來脫離法院了。"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：依你們所看到的，檢方這樣一個執行，你有沒有看到什麼樣必須趕快把網補起來的地方？我舉例，假設有幾個案例是在馬祖，受刑人在馬祖，或者被判決應該受監護的對象在馬祖，但是馬祖沒有啊！部長，我知道馬祖有一個檢察長，下面就只有一個檢察官而已，這樣人要送到哪裡？假設送臺北，然後要訪視、要追蹤受監護人，這又是地檢署要執行。法院在做這種判決的時候，到底有沒有什麼樣的全盤考量？我先聽你講完以後我再來講我的看法。"],["吳秘書長三龍：法院假如針對個案有一些障礙的話，會認為宣判的時候一般會說監護多久，接下來就是判決之後的執行，會請檢察官用比較適合的方式看這個個案到底是在哪裡、用什麼方式執行會比較適合。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長，我跟你講，檢察官不是醫生，也不是精神科醫生，我們其實也都課予檢察官太多太多的責任，但到底這個怎麼辦？上次我們在2022年修正刑法第八十七條，把原本監護期間最長5年，增訂無延長次數限制的監護期間規定，對不對？連這個其實我都有意見，但是後來為了補整個社會安全網，我手是舉起來，是贊成的啦！不然以我在鄉間所看到的個案，我看到有一個在我們地方上可以說是人民的精神導師，什麼人有痛苦、什麼人家庭有問題、什麼要解決等等都要找他告解，都要找他排解，跟他講一講之後民眾就很高興了，那是一個大廟的主委喔！有一天他晚上來拜訪我，他崩潰了、大哭，我嚇一跳，他是鄉民的神，怎麼可以對我這樣崩潰大哭？他說我的小孩因為猥褻被判3年，但要被關將近20年，我聽到之後覺得有可能嗎？猥褻怎麼可能會這樣？但是我第一個想到的就是監護處分，要去就醫啊！他的小孩看到人就要去摸奶，但不是摸年輕人喔，都是七、八十歲的阿嬤，這怎麼辦？就抓回去了！我們社會碰到這種，你說社會安全網不補起來又不行，像這種你也知道刑法對猥褻的刑責就不是那麼高嘛，可是一監護處分以後就要將近20年，這是當成殺人犯在處理了，殺人犯有時候被關也沒關那麼久。所以這就是我發現很困難的一個地方，我為什麼特別講馬祖這個地方？部長，如果事情發生在馬祖，我看你要怎麼辦？現在馬祖的處遇機構夠嗎？那邊有嗎？馬祖地區有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：馬祖的醫療是不夠的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊！所以我要說的就是，大家當然希望趕快推動司法精神病院，但我說現況，如果像那種，這就有點類似前陣子新北市那個凱凱案一樣嘛！就只是戶籍在新北而已，然後交給照護機構照顧，但最後要出養的時候是臺北市，中間就出現問題啦！如果你今天是馬祖地檢署的檢察官，本來一個月要去看一次，只要有兩件案子你就搞死了。因為馬祖沒有啊！如果放在臺北呢？假設那個受監護處分的人是在松德呢？所以監察院才會跟你們說，有關跨區處分的安置問題，你們會出現很大的問題。第一個，檢察官搞不好也是心不甘、情不願，檢察官說這麼遠，為什麼要叫我來？第二個就是整個後續追蹤醫療的困難，還有你怎樣去完善整個社區的機制，這個都缺乏。我們現在是頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，為了補足大家要求有整個社會安全網，你怎麼樣去把它補起來。我一直都認為，今天召委排這個很有意義啦，所以我在講說至少監察院現在跟你們提出了這些事項，部長你們做出了哪一些精進的作為，我想請教這部分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：其實我們對暫時安置跟監護處分的這部分，事實上現在是進入到第二期，我們有一個標準的流程，另外，我們也做精神鑑定、個案評估，包括轉銜機制，這些我們都有一個完善的措施，這邊都規劃好了，我們希望最主要還是能夠給這些受監護人一個比較好的照顧。在轉銜這部分，如果是期滿轉銜，我們也可以結合社會，包括警政、衛政、勞動等等，更深的來做一個好的銜接，不要讓他漏接。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實怎麼樣去建置比較完善的收案制度，還有去追蹤流程，我相信這是社會大眾期待的，因為社會大眾認為說我不想陷入這樣一個恐懼。如果提到打擊犯罪或者司法審判，就是要司法院來審判，我認為你們都做得到，秘書長，你們做得到，而打擊犯罪，部長你也都做得到。但是法務部要管的事情就是那麼多，這個也是你業務的一環，我們也期待你要重拾國人對整個司法制度的信心，連讓國人免於恐懼，這也是部長的責任，所以不只前端打擊犯罪，連後端這一些社會安全網，你怎麼樣去把它做一個建置，所以我是認為因為部長剛上任，我沒有要求你太多，但至少我看連監察院跟你們提出來這幾項確實也是重點，你們特別要再加強一下，因為社會每一個地方都會碰到，大家不願意讓它浮上檯面，只有個案出現的時候，大家才去討論，否則這個問題很大。我也不能去講說整個社會安全網的建置裡面碰到一些個案，就會覺得這是對人身自由的剝奪！個案常常跟社會安全網及整個制度裡面會產生有衝突的地方，看怎麼樣去調和，但重點是說確實是人力、物力，剛剛我提案的、收案的這整個機制，還有整個個案事後的監護處分裡面，如何去做追蹤，尤其是剛剛我提到那個部分，有關跨區如何去安置，這個其實都是值得我們法務部要再更進一步加強的地方。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們其實就是用分流的方式來分級的管理，像司法精神病院醫院病房，其實我們收治的強度及照護的強度會比較強，因為的確是對這些比較有中高度社會危險性的受監護人，我們要比較好的照顧，會有比較多的一些自由給他；如果說比較輕的話，甚至門診就可以了，其實這是可以流動的，我們會隨時去觀察這些收治的情形，給予不同的處遇，那也是推動多元處遇的精神，希望我們在社會安全網這邊會建構銜接地更好。謝謝委員這一個寶貴的建議，這部分我們會來加強。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我相信這一塊在立法院，大家會給你們支持啦，但是你們也要做出更好的成績，我們最怕的就是，大家支持你，到時候個案出來以後，變成又破功，以個案來看全貌，也沒有道理啦！也沒有道理啦！但是你們真的要加強的地方還很多，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","接下來我們請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-27","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","陳俊宇","林思銘","吳思瑤","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部率所屬相關單位列席就「強化社會安全網─ 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個案也透露了讓國人去意識到說我們整個監護的一個處分"},{"start":74.392,"end":100.802,"text":"到底哪一些地方必須要再去補破網的一個地方那這次的個案裡面你說從法院依殺人未遂去判處三年然後在執行刑法前先進行五年這樣的一個監護你全案定驗以後交由臺北地檢署去執行那今年3月排到基隆某精神醫院的一個監護這個程序看起來好像都很順暢但是社會上很多案例"},{"start":102.645,"end":125.781,"text":"看起來其實不像我們所看到的這樣子也就是說一個人是不是受監護的一個處分你等法官判決那判決確定以後檢察官再按照這個情況去找適合的一個處遇的一個機構我想請教部長就是說你們認為現在最大的問題處在什麼地方"},{"start":128.293,"end":145.242,"text":"目前我認為最大的問題就是因為監護處的確是要醫療照護來代替那個那個就把它當作屬性把它界定在病人的這個這個主體但是因為我們現在醫療的這部分的有"},{"start":146.443,"end":166.762,"text":"醫療處所的這邊的資源是還不夠的那而且最主要就是有意要做這些有管理監護執行監護收治監護處分的這些的醫院的意願不高再加上有這些的其實說有這些的充分的比較多的資源醫院這部分我沒有去了解是意願是不高的"},{"start":167.262,"end":181.483,"text":"那我們也擔心就是有醫院高的那這些收治的這些的處所是這些的醫療的這些的資源這些尤其是安全維護的這個措施是不是足夠那這部分我們也是要去比較擔心的或者一定是不夠啦"},{"start":182.369,"end":209.363,"text":"那所以說我們才會去跟有形成的統籌來籌設精神司法精神病房醫院的這些的這個速度齁 這個速度其實齁要建制還有很長一段路要走我請教秘書長就是說秘書長你譬如說法官就下一個判決下完了以後啊接下來脫離法院啦齁是是是依你們所看到的你們認為"},{"start":211.687,"end":238.578,"text":"我們檢方這樣的一個執行你有沒有看到什麼樣必須要趕快這個網把補起來的地方我舉例啊假設這個案例啊假設有幾個案例是在媽祖媽祖受刑人在媽祖或者說這個被判決應該受監護的對象在媽祖我媽祖我沒有部長你媽祖只有檢察官我的車可以坐到一個年嗎一個檢察店可以坐到一個年嗎對不對"},{"start":240.816,"end":259.598,"text":"那你要人要送到哪裡?假設送台北,然後這個訪視,然後這個要去追蹤,這受監護人,一個地檢署要執行。那換言之在做這個報告的時候,你們到底有沒有什麼樣一個全盤的一個考量?我先聽你講完以後,我再來講我的看法。"},{"start":262.372,"end":274.689,"text":"就是法院假如說針對這個個案他有一些障礙的話那會認為說宣判的時候會給他一般會說監護多久啦監護多久"},{"start":277.025,"end":296.63,"text":"那這個在接下來就是判決之後的執行就是會請我們檢察官就是用比較適合的方式來看就這個個案是到底是在哪邊用什麼方式來執行會比較適合秘書長我跟你講檢察官也不是醫生"},{"start":300.391,"end":321.378,"text":"媽咪精神科醫生我們其實也都可以撿來關太多太多的一個責任但到底這個怎麼辦你說我們上次在2022年修法這個刑法87條把原本監護期間5年增訂無延長次數的監護期間對不對連這個其實我都有意見的啦但是後來為了補這個整個社會安全網我手是舉起來是贊成的啦不然以我在"},{"start":329.266,"end":354.941,"text":"鄉間所看到的個案我看到有一個在我們地方上可以說是人民的精神導師啊導師啊什麼人有痛苦啊什麼人家庭有問題啊什麼改革啊都要找他告解都要找他這樣排解要跟他說完之後他就這樣大家民眾就很高興那些大名的主委有一天啊他晚上來拜訪我拜訪我"},{"start":358.376,"end":378.923,"text":"崩潰了,大哭,我嚇一跳。他是鄉民的神,怎麼可以對我這樣崩潰,大哭。他說我的孩子,要猥褻,要判三年,要把他關二十年,我聽到說,網告有可能,這個猥褻也有可能。但是我第一個想到的就是監護處分,都要依啊,都要依啊。他的孩子,看到人要幫忙收領,"},{"start":389.599,"end":393.982,"text":"社會安全網不補起來又不行可是這一種又你一下子你刑法你就知道猥褻就不是那麼高嘛可是呢一戒一監護處分以後啊"},{"start":416.326,"end":417.767,"text":"馬祖地檢署 馬祖地區"},{"start":440.089,"end":456.414,"text":"馬祖只有那個那個他醫療是不夠的不夠齁是啊所以我要說的就是說好啦你現在司法精神病院大家都希望要經濟推動我說現況如果像那一種"},{"start":458.161,"end":482.272,"text":"這個就有點類似前陣子在講新北市那個鎧鎧案一樣嘛 新北 到底要付錢給新北而已啊搞不好在照顧照顧機構 要出洋的時候是台北市 中間就出現問題啦那如果說你今天是媽祖地檢署的檢察官 你本來一個月要去看一次的兩件你就無時了咧 媽祖你沒啊"},{"start":485.945,"end":507.707,"text":"如果你放在台北呢?假設那個受監護處分的人是在松德呢?所以監裁委員才會去跟你們講說,你們這個跨區的處分這樣的一個安置的問題,你們會出現很大的問題。那第一個,今天我們搞不好也心不甘情不願了。今天我們講說,你為什麼不叫我來?"},{"start":509.124,"end":520.159,"text":"第二個就是說你整個後續追蹤醫療的一個困難還有整個社區的一個機制你怎麼樣去完善這個都缺乏我們現在是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳"},{"start":524.892,"end":524.932,"text":"要補充"},{"start":548.452,"end":574.519,"text":"這部分其實我們對暫時安置跟監護處分的這部分事實上現在是進入到第二期第二期那我們有一個標準的一個流程那另外我們也做一個精神就是一個精神的鑑定、個案評估包括轉嫌其實這些都是我們有完善的一個做一個措施了那這邊都規劃好了那我們希望最主要還是能夠"},{"start":577.38,"end":591.53,"text":"給這些受監護人一個比較好的照顧。另外,如果是在轉嫌這部分,如果說期滿轉嫌這部分,我們也可以結合社會警政、衛政、這些勞動的等等,還有更深的這邊做一個好的銜接,不要讓它漏接了。"},{"start":592.867,"end":613.314,"text":"其實怎麼樣去建制比較完善的一個受案的一個制度還有去追蹤這個流程我相信這個是社會大眾期待的因為社會大眾認為說我不想陷於這樣的一個恐懼啊如果說打擊犯罪或者司法審判司法人員要審判 我想你們都做得到啦打擊犯罪不中你們都做得到啦但是你看澳部要管的事情就是這麼多"},{"start":619.436,"end":640.32,"text":"這個也是你的業務的一環我們也期待你要重拾國人對整個司法制度的一個信心連這個讓國人免於恐懼不然現在你的責任呢?所以不是只有前端打擊犯罪而已連後端這一些社會安全網你怎麼樣去把它做一個建制所以我是認為因為部長剛上任我沒有要求太多但至少"},{"start":647.321,"end":674.813,"text":"我看連監察院跟你們所提出來這幾項那個確實也是重點你們特別要再加強一下因為這些社會每一個地方都會碰到大家不願意把它讓它浮上檯面只有個案出現的時候大家才去討論否則這個問題很大我也不能去講說整個社會安全網的一個建制裡面碰到一些個案就會覺得說這對人身自由的一個剝奪"},{"start":676.053,"end":691.646,"text":"各案常常會跟這個社會安全網大家這整個制度裡面會產生有衝突的一個地方怎麼樣去調和啦但重點是說確實是人力、物力剛我提案的、首案的這個整個機制還有整個個案事後的監獄處那個整個"},{"start":697.318,"end":714.302,"text":"整個處分裡面、監護處分裡面如何去做一個追蹤尤其是我剛提到那個部分你那個跨區那個整個跨區如何去安置的一個部分這個其實都是值得我們法務部要再去做更"},{"start":714.942,"end":741.233,"text":"這部分公務員報告我們其實就是用分流的一個方式來分級的一個管理嘛那像我們司法精神病院的話醫院病房的話其實我們那個收治的一個強度照顧的強度會比較強因為的確是對這些比較有中高度社會危險性的這些受監護人我們要比較好的一個照顧那這次有比較多的一些的資源給他那如果說比較輕的話那我們就是甚至門診就可以了"},{"start":741.493,"end":744.154,"text":"我相信這一塊在立法院大家會給你們支持啦但是你們也要做出更好的成績我們最怕的就是說大家跟你們集齊"},{"start":769.942,"end":770.102,"text":"好 謝謝委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}