{"error":false,"id":["153206"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153206,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153206","日期":"2024-05-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-29T09:57:14+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-29T10:09:40+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:26","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331e2d8b58d2bfd69205c2a8e696f21355c333bc5d453e1b195c64b846e250b77685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"09:57:14 - 10:09:40","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（9時57分）主席、各位列席官員，大家早！主席，我想請主計總處陳淑姿主計長。"],["主席（郭委員國文）：主計長請。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長，恭喜！"],["陳主計長淑姿：謝謝你。"],["顏委員寬恒：恭喜、恭喜！我想主計長先前也擔任過臺南市的主計長，對業務都非常熟悉，面對預算的編審及執行監督，還有各項數據統計，應該會更加的謹慎，也會呈現出最真實的數據給我們人民。","112年度中央政府總預算實際執行結果，歲出歲入賸餘新臺幣2,790億，扣除債務還本1,260億，尚有收支賸餘1,530億，這是連續7年來總決算歲出歲入都有賸餘。主計長，有錢是好事情，多出來的錢要拿去還債，但是問題是為什麼都會賸餘這麼多？是不是一開始在編列的時候就不夠精確，你可以跟我們說明一下嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：主要是歲入有超收，其實我們111和112、113年都有做調整，有調整增列將近4,000億，但是實際執行的結果，稅收的情況還是很好，所以這個部分就會有賸餘。"],["顏委員寬恒：就是每年都超徵，連續3年超徵了1.29兆……"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是超徵，是實際收入的增加……"],["顏委員寬恒：你就說超收，超收就是超徵。"],["陳主計長淑姿：它是按照既定的稅制來做徵收。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。目前還有幾項國內長期的重大議題，包含貧富差距、薪資、租屋補貼、長照、地方建設等等。從4月份開始，各機關政府開始編列明年度的預算，主計長要把這些國內關注的重要議題納入參考……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們有一個吉尼係數，是我們用來衡量貧富差距的一項指標，這個係數的值越低，表示越平均，臺灣從30年前的0.47到110年的0.60，財富分配不均的情況持續擴大。主計總處前一陣子的國富統計報告也顯示，最富與最窮的家庭資產規模相差66.9倍，將近是70倍，經濟成長規模從勞力密集走向資本化、知識化，貧富差距惡化是必然的結果，但是各國都會做所得重分配，把財富重新分配給社會上的弱勢族群，用很多種方法，比如租屋補貼、育兒津貼、中低收入戶的補貼或者是長照的支出，但是我認為我們臺灣的制衡機制不夠，也不夠完整。","以上市櫃這些高階主管與基層的倍數持續擴大為例，目前仍無法避免，所以我想要請教主計長，臺灣的貧富差距持續擴大，我們要怎麼做？難道只能放任這樣的情況一直擴張，讓有錢的人持續透過炒房、炒匯這樣子的方式把貧富差距拉得更開嗎？還有沒有什麼其他的辦法？"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，我們提出這個所謂家庭財富的所得報告，30年前我們是用國富調查，現在我們是利用家庭收支的調查，連同大數據，兩個產生的方式不一樣，所以結果也不能相提並論。如果以今日自由經濟發展的結果，有這些差距當然是必然的，我們只是提供這些數據讓各部會去參考，而各部會裡面有相關的措施，像我們113年在社會福利相關的支出方面就達到7,897億元，等於我們可能要透過很多對於中低收入戶家庭的補助、移轉性的收入來改變當中差距的倍數。其實我們以家庭收支所得來估計，五分位的差距是6.05到6.15，我們如果透過一些社會福利相關的措施，就能夠降低這些差距。如果以每個人薪資所得來估計，差距是3.93倍，我們再透過各方面的努力，大部分也都會大力降低。我們當然是希望貧富差距能夠逐漸來縮小，經過政府一些措施的辦理。"],["顏委員寬恒：措施要有效，如果措施無效或者只是冰冷的數字，民眾無感！現在的狀況是收入減少，成本持續提高，我最關心的其實就是收入，現在國人的收入呈現M型化，112年全年每人每月總薪資平均是5萬8,545元，但是我們都知道，平均數其實沒什麼意義，看中位數好了，中位數能呈現出真實的狀況，剔除物價因素，全年實質經常性薪資是4萬1,334元，年減0.05%，是連續3年負成長，重點就是收入負成長，這是正確的資訊，實際總收入是5萬3,189元，年減1.04%，也是7年來首次負成長。","臺灣薪資漲得慢，但是租金、房價、物價漲得速度就不用我來形容了，這是民眾最不滿的部分，這一部分也是本席最關心的。我想請教，受薪族的收入短少，以及物價上漲，通膨越來越大，主計長，有沒有什麼有效的作為？這個是第一個部分。","再來，就是租屋補貼，剛剛提到透過租屋補貼、社福支出，還有育兒津貼、中低收入戶的補助，還有長照的支出，將財富重新分配給社會上比較弱勢的部分，但是這個要建立在社福制度完善的情況之下才會奏效。比如租金補貼的部分，明明是一個好的政策，但是到現在卻一堆人領不到，如果主計長還有各位官員不相信的話，你們去網路上面的社團或者是租屋網查看看就知道，很多房東擺明了說你不能用租屋補貼，反倒是可以用租屋補貼租到房子，好像還要回過頭來感謝房東施捨的概念，這應該不是我們設定政策的一個初衷。原本租金可能是一萬二，但是因為要申請租屋補貼，他就技巧性的把房租調漲變一萬四、一萬五，租屋市場是這樣子。我們制定政策，還有要推動這個政策，民眾的抱怨只會更多，不會減少，這樣代表這個政策還有很多需要檢討的部分，可不可以請主計長說明一下有沒有什麼因應對策？"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實我們是提供數據參考，實際執行的相關部會各項措施如果有不完善、需要檢討的部分，我們也會轉達，請各部會針對這個部分能夠來做一些檢討，因為有時候涉及到比較細項的執行細節，可能要各部會再深入去瞭解，因為有時候它在規範的時候，可能都是規範大的原則，在執行細項會遭遇到哪些困難，或者是申請的時候會遭遇哪些阻礙，這個部分應該如何來免除，我們也會轉達給相關的單位，讓它來做一些改進措施。"],["顏委員寬恒：我在這邊跟主計長提一下，因為我們上一次到臺中市，主計總處還有審計部都有派員參加地方建設的考察，特別去看了臺中市的捷運藍線還有海線雙軌高架的部分。針對雙軌高架的部分，現場考察的時候國發會有表示，目前的評估只剩下主計總處還沒有審議完成，主計長，因為你剛上任，所以這部分我要提醒你，因為臺中市是目前人口第二多的城市，不管是捷運藍線、不管是海線雙軌高架或鐵路捷運化的部分，都對臺中市的整體發展非常重要，也不只是臺中，因為不管是旅外的、從北部或高雄來到臺中洽公，或者在臺中工作、租屋、買房，這些部分都會受惠。既然國發會說只剩下主計總處的審議，剩下主計總處還沒有提出評估報告，主計總處可不可以儘速完成這項事項？"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告……"],["顏委員寬恒：還有就是要提高補助能夠支援臺中市政府的部分，因為臺中市雖然財力分級被列為二級，財政算是相對比較好，但是也因為財政相對比較好，變成臺中市自籌的部分都要比其他縣市更高，這樣就好像相對在懲罰好學生。稅收高，臺中市這個城市的治理跟管理或許是比較好，但是問題是這樣子它的預算補助卻反而短少，所以這個部分我希望主管機關還有主計總處可以提供更擴大的預算支援。"],["主席：時間的關係，請主計長會後補充一些資料給顏委員，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員質詢。我們今天在賴士葆委員質詢以後休息10分鐘。","接著請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-14","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","王世堅","李彥秀","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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