{"error":false,"id":["153208"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153208,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153208","日期":"2024-05-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-29T10:21:43+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-29T10:33:46+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:03","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331dcc7949278781eaa5c2a8e696f21355c333bc5d453e1b195e0339c327a9d32f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:21:43 - 10:33:46","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":408,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時21分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請陳主計長。"],["主席：有請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：主計長早，很多委員對你必問的題目GDP、CPI，今年的GDP大概預估多少？台經院預估百分之三點二多，我看總額大概3.5%，差不多這個數字嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們本來預測的數字是3.43%。"],["賴委員士葆：3.43%？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員士葆：我還比你高估。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為第一季就6.51%，所以狀況非常好，如果以後月份不動的話，根據前面幾個數據來做調整，就有可能會超過3.5%。"],["賴委員士葆：所以今年有機會到3.5%？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有可能到4%？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我就不敢講了。"],["賴委員士葆：機會不大啦！為什麼機會不大？我跟你講，漲電價對GDP是plus還是minus？"],["陳主計長淑姿：應該是minus。"],["賴委員士葆：4月份開始漲電價了，5月份夏季電價開始實施，這對CPI都是很大的衝擊，同樣的會連帶影響到GDP。"],["陳主計長淑姿：第一，因為如果說……"],["賴委員士葆：你先回答這個問題，電價漲對GDP是加還是減？你要告訴我這一點。"],["陳主計長淑姿：應該是負面的。"],["賴委員士葆：負面的啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它會增加成本。"],["賴委員士葆：我們看總薪資7年來減少，你會發現臺灣一直講經濟成長多讚、股市又創新高2萬多點，可是造成的是富者越富、窮者越窮，主計長應該同意我的說法吧！是這樣吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，實質總薪資是正成長，因為是七萬二千多元，這是經常性薪資，如果換算物價指數的調整率，實質薪資總成長0.88%。"],["賴委員士葆：今年第一季是負成長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：經常性收支是-0.09%。"],["賴委員士葆：主計長等於卓政府的帳房，作為帳房，錢要管很緊，新任的部會首長陸陸續續上任，過去的預算是編給上一任的部長用，我問你，他能不能調整？可不可以調整？能不能，告訴我。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們4月30日有發一個函，給它一個額度。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼額度？"],["陳主計長淑姿：初步初核的額度，再來我們會請它在6月中旬針對調整的計畫要報上來。"],["賴委員士葆：現在有哪幾個部會報上來要調整？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們到6月中旬，6月20日截止。"],["賴委員士葆：目前都還沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還沒有，所以我們也給各部會……"],["賴委員士葆：本席告訴你，現在有一個單位叫數發部，或者數位部，它的國外旅費刪完了，原來編3,700萬元，立法院砍了600萬元，剩3,100萬元，但是它編的出國費用、國外旅費等於要出去2,188人次，總共283人，每一個人1年要出差7.7天，這個唐鳳前部長編的。但現在的黃部長說他不要出國了，他這個地方要砍，請問他可不可以把這個錢挪到其他單位來用，你告訴我可不可以？主計長，這是你的專業。"],["陳主計長淑姿：第一，出國計畫相關的同一個工作計畫可以調整，但是不同工作計畫不可以調整。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講，預算法第六十三條規定很清楚，經過立法院刪減的話，就不得流用，所以這裡面有一個矛盾的地方在這裡。新任部長來了，他不認同這筆的出國費用，他要把它挪到其他地方使用，他覺得不應該出國這麼多，也看到外界批評很多，說數位部等於出國部、旅遊部，所以他說我不用這麼多錢，可能砍一半或三分之一、三分之二，問題是預算法第六十三條你不能動嘛！不能流用啊！法訂在這裡啊！主計長，你旁邊的給你小抄也沒用，法在這裡，不能流用，你出不了國、你不要出國，你就乖乖繳庫，對吧！"],["陳主計長淑姿：第一，流用的規範有分用途別、不得流用的項目或者是……"],["賴委員士葆：預算法第六十三條規定刪減以後不得流用啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：刪減後的預算不會用，一般刪減後它不會用。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼意思？"],["陳主計長淑姿：就是說你被刪減的預算，本來變成3,100萬元，就是用3,100萬元去執行。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！他就用不了那麼多，他不要花3,100萬元，他只要花1,000萬元，可能啊！你知道我的意思嗎？他還是嫌多，新的部長就是這樣。"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，刪減的這個計畫裡面，依照預算法規定，他在整個計畫裡面是可以整體調整流用的。"],["賴委員士葆：預算法第六十三條講假的嗎？第六十三條規定經過立法院刪減後不得流用啊！這很清楚啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，通刪的部分依照規定是可以的。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼空單？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果是屬於通刪，通案刪減的部分。"],["賴委員士葆：這不是通刪，你搞清楚，因為那時候不分黨派，大家就很討厭唐鳳，把這個錢刪600萬元，是這個樣子，不是通刪OK？，主計長要進入狀況。你不知道喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：同仁提供給我的訊息……"],["賴委員士葆：它不是通刪，我告訴你，不是通刪，通刪是固定多少比率，這是另外再刪的，是在委員會刪掉600萬元，不是通刪，你回去查一下，把結果告訴我。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員士葆：再來，前瞻五期你們編的，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：正在審查，還沒有編，8月底。"],["賴委員士葆：前瞻剩多少錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：703億元。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以送到立法院？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上應該是8月底。"],["賴委員士葆：涵蓋的項目有哪些？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為項目原則當初都有定下來，所以現在會針對一些如需要支付的項目，例如交通。"],["賴委員士葆：賴政府、卓政府上來以後，會不會編一個前瞻2.0？"],["陳主計長淑姿：要看院裡的整個政策。"],["賴委員士葆：還沒有聽到？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員士葆：我是有聽到這個聲音，你們要編前瞻2.0喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我是沒有聽到這樣的聲音啦！"],["賴委員士葆：我希望你這個帳房管好，錢不要亂花，不要用特別預算，財政紀律要顧好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們原則是嚴謹啦！"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個問題，你第一次來備詢，奇怪你人緣很好，這都是臺南的委員，主席也是臺南的、底下也是臺南的，大家很怕你被我罵的樣子。"],["陳主計長淑姿：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：你要對我老實提供資料，opendata其實主計總處很多資料都很寶貴，但是你給的資料都不好用，Excel資料都不好用，你知道什麼叫opendata嗎？你擔任過研考會主委嘛！不是只有你，現在政府單位所提供的資料都不能檢索，都這樣給你，實在很難用，你能不能在這裡公開承諾，主計總處以後提供的資料、給委員的資料都是可以全面檢索的，這樣我們找起來就方便，一看什麼地方有閒置停車場、什麼地方浪費，一看就很清楚，可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，我們送立法院提案的相關資料庫，都有依照規定公開在機關的網站，如果要供外界加值使用，我們也是有一些資料開放，用opendata來開放，但是如果要讓民眾查詢，我們還要回去研議評估……"],["賴委員士葆：我告訴你，去年前任的朱主計長就同意了，他說今年要提供給我們的都是可以retrieval，就是可以檢索。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們有在研議。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以提供？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上大概9月底。"],["賴委員士葆：所以9月以後主計總處提供的資料都可以全文檢索，我這樣講對吧！我就問你這句話。"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為這個部分我比較不清楚，這個部分有在研議說要開放。"],["賴委員士葆：你旁邊同仁一直點頭。"],["陳主計長淑姿：同仁告訴我9月底。"],["賴委員士葆：9月底沒關係，你旁邊同仁一直點頭，你就跟我點頭就好了，這個留紀錄，9月底主計總處提供給立委的資料opendata都可以retrieval，就是可以檢索，這個非常重要，各位注意看，它們提供的資料都非常寶貴，但是不好用，9月底以後可以好用。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員質詢。現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時33分）","繼續開會（10時44分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-14","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","賴惠員","賴士葆","王鴻薇","王世堅","李彥秀","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","羅明才","鄭天財Sra 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因為如果說能不能先回答這問題是定價長對GDP是加還是減你要告訴我這點應該是負面的啦負面的啦因為第一個他會增加成本嘛是那我們看總薪是七年來開始"},{"start":116.348,"end":116.548,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":133.847,"end":150.307,"text":"應該同意我的說法嗎?報告委員,實質總薪資我是正成長啦,因為我是七萬兩千多嘛,那這是經常性的薪資,如果換算那個物價指數的一個調整率之後,他是在實質薪資總成長0.88啦"},{"start":154.758,"end":181.447,"text":"可是所有的數字都是今年第一次負責長的經常性收支是負的啦負的零點零九啦是這樣子經常性的薪資是負的來我們來看喔這個主計長是給左政府的管帳房啦自我對帳房的錢都很少喔新任的部會所長上任陸陸續續上任"},{"start":184.76,"end":211.06,"text":"過去的預算是編給他上一任的部長用的他能不能調整啊我問你可不可以調整我們現在是這樣我們4月你不能調整你告訴我我們4月30我們有發一個函就是給他一個額度但是在什麼額度就是說初步出核的額度然後再來就是說我會請他在6月中旬的時候針對調整的計畫要報上來是這樣子嘿"},{"start":214.262,"end":237.888,"text":"現在有哪幾個部會跟你報上來要調整我們到6月中旬所以都還沒有6月20目前都還沒有對還沒有所以我們也給各黨新的現在有一個單位叫速發部或者速衛部都可以是他的國外禮位啊3萬了原來編3700萬領土不算了齁我們把他立法院砍了600萬剩3100萬"},{"start":242.711,"end":271.177,"text":"但是他編的這是出國費用喔國外旅費喔這個呢等下出去2188人次他總共283個人每一個人一年要出差7點7天啊這個唐鳳原部長前部長編的現在的部長啊姓黃是不是他都說他不要出國了"},{"start":272.632,"end":272.973,"text":"一般如果說"},{"start":289.022,"end":313.615,"text":"第一個如果說出國計畫它相關的一個同一個工作計畫它是可以做調整但是不同工作計畫是不可以調整的是這樣子來我先跟你講喔預算法63條定很清楚經過立法院如果刪減的話就不得留用所以這裡面有一個矛盾地方在這裡新的部長來了他不認同這一筆的一個出國費用"},{"start":315.162,"end":330.088,"text":"他要把他挪到其他地方來用他覺得他不應該出國這麼多他還看到外界批評很多說這個數位部等於出國部、旅遊部所以他把他他說我沒這麼緊可能砍一半砍三分之一砍三分之二"},{"start":331.377,"end":348.324,"text":"好了那問題預算法63條你不能動啊不能留用啊法定在這裡啊主計長你旁邊的給你校長沒用啊這裡法在這裡不能留用你出不了國你不要出國你就乖乖講庫對吧這樣對吧"},{"start":349.825,"end":362.32,"text":"第一個流用的規範他有分第一個用途別不得流用的一個小規範我跟妳講預算法六三條三減以後不得流用阿三減以後不得流用一般三減以後他不會用"},{"start":363.055,"end":382.334,"text":"什麼意思就是說你被刪減的預算他本來三千他本來變成三千一百萬那三千一百萬的部分呢他是就三千一百萬去做執行阿對啊阿他就用不了那麼多都不要花三千一百萬阿這只要花一千萬阿可能阿你才懷疑我"},{"start":384.181,"end":403.838,"text":"他還是嫌多 現在新的部長都這樣啊不是 他是你三檢的這個計劃裡面 你在這個計劃依照預算法規定他在整個計劃裡面他是可以整體調整流用的預算法六三條講假的喔不是 他說好像六三條經過立法院三檢會不得流用啊"},{"start":405.28,"end":418.928,"text":"這很清楚的啊我刪減又不得不得留用啊不是通刪的部分它是依照規定是可以的什麼空單就是如果是屬於通刪通利刪減的部分這不是通刪欸"},{"start":422.45,"end":436.337,"text":"這不是通山你搞清楚因為那時候不分黨派大家就很討厭唐鳳把這個錢三六百萬是這樣子的不是通山不是通山主計長要進入狀況我們同仁提供給我的訊息這不是通山我告訴你不是通山"},{"start":446.9,"end":459.045,"text":"同山是固定多少這是另外再刪的在委員會裡面刪掉的刪600萬不是同山你回去查一下有結果告訴我再來看那個前瞻5期"},{"start":469.161,"end":469.922,"text":"原則上應該是八月底啦八月底吼涵蓋得像不像那些"},{"start":489.944,"end":507.05,"text":"因為項目原則上其實當初都有定下來所以現在大概就是說會針對有一些譬如說要支付的一個項目會不會左政府上來以後來政府上來左政府會不會變一個前瞻奧廷會不會"},{"start":512.628,"end":526.671,"text":"這個部分要看你的整個政策還沒有聽到我是有聽到這個聲音你們要編一個簽證要聽聽我們希望你帳門管好這個錢不要亂花不用特別預算財政紀律要顧好最後一個問題你第一次來"},{"start":539.457,"end":539.477,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":551.67,"end":569.983,"text":"那你要給我就提供老實提供資料open data其實主計處主計總處很多資料都很寶貴但是你給的資料都不好用Excel資料都不好用open data你知道什麼叫open data你硬卡會主委做過門"},{"start":574.588,"end":590.555,"text":"就現在不是不僅僅只有你政府的單位所提供的資料都不能夠解鎖都是這樣給你啊很難用的啦很難用的所以你們不能在這裡公開承諾"},{"start":592.117,"end":610.164,"text":"我們主計總處以後提供的資料給我們委的資料都是可以全面確認解鎖這樣我們找起來就方便了一看 喔 什麼地方限制這個停車場啦什麼地方有 什麼地方有喔 什麼地方浪費不太清楚可不可以來 你告訴我"},{"start":611.26,"end":639.049,"text":"那事實上呢我們送立法院提案的一個相關的一個資料庫我們都有依照規定來公開啦在機關的網站裡面那如果說我們要如果要供外界來加值使用我們也是有一些資料有做開放用open data來開放那但是如果說要有一些民眾查詢要這個我們還是要再回去研議評估啦我告訴你一個事情"},{"start":640.069,"end":653.165,"text":"在去年的時候主主計長前任的主計長是他就同意了是他說今年要給我今年要提供給我們的都是可以retrieval就是可以檢索"},{"start":655.077,"end":656.498,"text":"主計總處提供的資料都可以全文檢索"},{"start":674.395,"end":674.535,"text":"這個留記錄了"},{"start":691.887,"end":708.041,"text":"主計總處提供給立委的資料open data都可以retrieval就是可以檢索這個非常重要各位注意看他提供資料都非常寶貴但是不好用那現在9月底以後可以好用謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}