{"error":false,"id":["153242"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153242,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153242","日期":"2024-05-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-22","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":22,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-29T11:15:11+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-29T11:24:48+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:37","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331da02f1e3e6fe375674cb636d3605ada8a3ee6acdf2d5e9871d80c1a84178aff75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:15:11 - 11:24:48","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時15分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請國安局的蔡局長。"],["主席：蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：是，你好。請問國安局有沒有派人去參加517、521、524、528，我們周邊外圍的「青鳥行動」？有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：派人沒有，我們沒有介入這種社會的活動，沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有介入？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：好奇去看一下也沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們沒有下達這樣的指示，要各單位的同仁去參加這個活動，沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：我現在擔心的是，你們說不定有人跑去，只是你不知道而已，結果你們國安人員他的年級，就是跟年紀有關係的，還有他支持的傾向都被記錄了。局長，你要不要講一下，如果國安局有人在裡面，資料都這樣子被蒐集，你感覺怎麼樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，我們沒有人過去那邊。"],["賴委員士葆：確定沒有喔？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：你有沒有管道取得基地臺的登錄訊號？"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛剛也有跟徐巧芯委員報告過，國安局假如要跟電信業者索取相關的用戶資料的話，必須遵照通訊保障及監察法的規定，要送到高等法院，然後要經過12道行政審查程序才能夠啟動，而且目的是為了國安或司法刑事案件的偵辦，這有一個非常嚴謹的法律程序。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那麼我們就知道，要監聽，其實一般的檢調系統是有滿嚴謹的規定。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我剛剛跟委員說明的就是這部分。"],["賴委員士葆：但是其中有一個是國安局長可以簽監聽。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有！沒有！我簽了之後是要送到高等法院，由高等法院來裁示可以啟動才能啟動，程序上是這樣。"],["賴委員士葆：你要經過高等法院嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：是，我們要經過高等法院。"],["賴委員士葆：我們以前瞭解，國安局長不必耶！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這個在通訊保障及監察法通過之後，程序非常地明確。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我就跟你提醒一下啦！手機定位資訊屬於個資，這個東西大家要好好去保護它，不要隨便去迫害，隨便去取得，這是侵犯個資的。","好，我們請陸委會梁副主委一起，好不好？局長先不要走。我們今天的題目就是中國大陸的「聯合利劍A」，剛才蔡局長講了好幾次，針對賴總統的就職演說，那我就很好奇啊！兩位長官，哪位可以回答？蔡英文總統也講過，中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬，為什麼蔡英文講了沒事，賴清德有事？為什麼？來，你講一下。"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛剛也跟兩位委員報告過這件事，事實上賴總統的520就職演說，他延續的還是維持兩岸現狀的基本調性。"],["賴委員士葆：奇怪，為什麼中共會有這麼大的反應呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：中共它可能在臺灣的政府換屆，它有一個反應的動作，所以委員可以注意到……"],["賴委員士葆：所以它緊張？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員可以注意到，美國國務院的第二次聲明講得很清楚，中共不應該在臺灣進行合法有序的政權交接過程當中，用武力來恫嚇臺灣的社會，我想美國也點出來這個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：上一次有嗎？上一次馬英九交給蔡英文總統，有這樣子嗎？有馬上演習嗎？沒有啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：不過時空環境可能都不太一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啊！蔡英文那時候講，也沒有啊！是不是？"],["蔡局長明彥：時空環境不太一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：2016、2020他也講，講得更露骨，也沒有啊！差在哪裡？來，副主委，你應該知道答案，你講一下，差在哪裡？差在哪裡？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我想每一個總統他用詞、用字的方式會不太一樣，但是有一些原則還是相同的，譬如說賴清德總統一開始就講說遵循中華民國憲政體制，這當然就是包括了中華民國憲法增修條文跟兩岸人民關係條例。"],["賴委員士葆：就是差這裡啦！因為蔡英文有講，處理兩岸關係是根據中華民國憲法plus兩岸人民關係條例，賴清德沒有講這個，沒有講兩岸人民關係條例，那是你梁文傑自己補充的，你把它延伸過去的。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：這個我們在上個禮拜的記者會就有講過了。"],["賴委員士葆：是你把它延伸的。問題是，這是正式的就職演說，這麼重要的就職演說，兩岸人民關係條例你們不把它講出來，他如果把這個補進來就沒事了！你瞭解賴總統嗎？他事後一定很懊惱吧？「無代無誌」就是少說一句，你的解讀是他就有包括，事實上他沒有講啊！他在公開場合正式的就職演說沒有講兩岸人民關係條例。我請教蔡局長，是不是？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想我們尊重委員的解讀，但我剛剛在提醒委員的是，也有其他的解讀，像美國官方的解讀就認為中共這個有點在無端興釁啦！並沒有挑釁對岸，但是對岸竟然有這種軍事演習的動作，所以才對中共提出示警，那這是另外一種……"],["賴委員士葆：那奇怪了，美國這樣講的話，美國應該在整個環台軍演的時候，美國應該去圍中共的軍機啊！也都沒有看到他的航母在哪裡啊！不知道在哪裡，跑去哪裡都不知道，也沒看到啊！臺灣就這樣子啊！我們面對任何中共的各種打壓，全民絕對反對、全民絕對唾棄，這樣子對臺灣人民是沒有用的，只是傷害臺灣人民的感情而已，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：我們不分黨派，不需要戴紅帽，大家當然會討厭，說奇怪了，為什麼對我們家這樣要打要壓……"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：喊打喊殺絕對反對嘛！但是問題就在於說，當家的要想辦法讓旁邊那個人不要動不動就來這裡戳我啊！就是這樣啊！對吧？我說過了啊！那再請教副主委，其實老共這樣嚇我們，我的解讀啦！賴清德總統有一點退縮了，硬的越硬、軟的越軟，開始說陸生可以來臺灣了，對吧？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：陸生來臺灣是我們一貫的政策，我們去年甚至為了歡迎陸生，我們把陸生納入健保，將常年以來的問題都解決了，所以陸生的政策其實蔡總統跟賴總統都是一貫的，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：你要不要再加一個現在嗷嗷待哺的旅遊業？旅遊業最盼望的就是6月1號開始的禁赴陸團把它取消掉，赴陸團的禁止令把它取消。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：這個部分我們都在處理中，那……"],["賴委員士葆：有機會嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：處理規劃中……"],["賴委員士葆：有機會嗎？我問你有沒有機會？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我覺得具體的部分要由交通部來回答，但是我……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼交通部，主要在你啊！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：但我必須說，中共他現在所提出來的，所謂只放福建省的人過來等等這些東西，都和我們當初疫情前的情況是完全不一樣的，他現在等於是開了一個很小的門，所以當我們在處理這個問題的時候，我們也必須要重視對等、尊嚴。"],["賴委員士葆：蔡局長，你認同不認同這時候如果把赴陸團的禁止令取消掉，對於兩岸關係的緩和有幫助，有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員這個問題涉及到兩岸政策跟觀光政策，是陸委會跟交通部的職掌，我們尊重相關政府部門的規劃。"],["賴委員士葆：最近看到一個東西，美國精準預測俄烏戰爭的智庫學者Alperovitch，他說共軍不到一個小時就可以占領臺灣，你同意嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：早上媒體也在問這個問題，我們對於各種外國政府機構或民間智庫有關臺海情勢的分析，我們都有在注意，我們國安單位本身也跟國防部，也透過聯合……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，你要講一下是不是絕不可能，你應該講一下鼓舞我們的士氣啊！絕對不可能，能不能講這個話？不可能一個小時就占領我們，不可能。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，學者有他自己的推論，我們就尊重他的推論。"],["賴委員士葆：他5月23號的演習，你什麼時候知道？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們之前在研判整個態勢就認為他應該會有一些相關……"],["賴委員士葆：對，但是那個timing，你是說5月20號前後會有，但是你沒有抓到timing，他們出動你根本不知道。"],["蔡局長明彥：不是，我剛剛也在跟馬召委做相關的說明，他的船艦一有動態的話，我們都會掌握，這部分請委員放心。"],["賴委員士葆：但是5月23號這一次，precise這一天，你沒有抓到喔！precise沒有喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有，大概有掌握。"],["賴委員士葆：確定嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我可以跟委員報告，在總統上任的第一次國安首長會議，我們都已經討論相關的情資。"],["賴委員士葆：就跟他講5月23號他們會有演習？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，日期大概都有掌握到。"],["賴委員士葆：所以5月23號你有掌握到？"],["蔡局長明彥：有掌握到。謝謝委員。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：謝謝。因為今天有美國聯邦眾議院外交委員會主席麥考爾率領的訪團，特地要來會議室跟委員們做短暫的交流，並且合影留念，所以我們也邀請我們現在在場的委員，還有希望參與的委員可以留在會場，稍微等待外賓的抵達。休息時間除主席台之外不清場，請國際事務處的同仁掌握外賓到場以及交流合影的流程，外賓離開以後，我們就結束休息繼續開會。我們現在休息。","休息（11時25分）","繼續開會（11時50分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來請沈伯洋委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-22","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","洪申翰","陳永康","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","沈伯洋","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","張啓楷","林宜瑾","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發\n展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.19971875,"end":1.7522187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.1234687500000002,"end":4.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.52284375,"end":12.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.94034375,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.93596875,"end":14.374718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.94846875,"end":20.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.46659375,"end":27.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.31784375,"end":30.726593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start"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