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今天是戴總經理趙鋒雷董事長 蕭總經理趙鋒商營總經理"},{"start":1605.713,"end":1626.662,"text":"第一銀行第一金控這個邱董事長陳總經理第一商營李總經理華南金控張董事長李總經理華銀黃總經理核庫董董事長"},{"start":1638.248,"end":1654.433,"text":"陳總經理 俄庫銀行林董事長 蘇總經理 彰化商營林董事長 周總經理 鍾曉慶張總經理"},{"start":1662.585,"end":1664.486,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好今天貴委員會安排本部就"},{"start":1690.232,"end":1692.037,"text":"資安疑慮頻傳．如何強化財稅機關及公股行庫資安防護與區域聯防．進行專題報告"},{"start":1698.566,"end":1713.736,"text":"請報告如下 敬請指教首先就財稅機關的資安部分做報告各個財稅機關除了要嚴格遵守《資通安全管理法》還有相關的執法規辦理各項資通安全的防護機制之外我們財稅系統的網路環境是採取內外網實體隔離那麼可以降低資料外洩還有資安攻擊的風險"},{"start":1722.102,"end":1730.505,"text":"那麼另外在於資安防護措施部分第一個就是我們110年已經建置了整合性的資安監控中心我們24小時即時的監控以及資安的預警第二個是採取多層次眾生防護網路的架構"},{"start":1738.047,"end":1761.403,"text":"並且根據行政院的政策在110年完成建制資安落點通報以及端點的防護機制。第三個對於不同業務屬性人員我們建立分權的機制嚴格控管高權賬號及限定權限的使用地點。第四個我們在105年成立的資安建檢以及數位建設團隊定期辦理財稅系統的落點掃描、滲透、測試以及資安的見證。"},{"start":1768.127,"end":1785.507,"text":"第五,對於我們不使用中國大陸廠牌的資通訊設備,委外廠商也不得有大陸籍的人士,避免資料的外洩。第六,我們每年定期辦理分散式阻斷攻擊的防護、攻防演練,因應分散式阻斷攻擊癱瘓對外的服務網站。"},{"start":1789.603,"end":1794.887,"text":"7.112年9月辦理稅務系統紅隊演練檢測系統防護措施8."},{"start":1794.887,"end":1803.613,"text":"建構本部支通安全威脅偵測管理機制提供政府領域聯防監控中心本部的監控管理資料"},{"start":1804.153,"end":1831.452,"text":"建立情資回傳還有情資分享的機制形成一個資安聯防的體系第二個部分就是公股行庫資安防護以及區域聯防的部分我們公股銀行都設置副總經理以上的資訊安全長提升資安議題的執行能力定期進行防害演練並配合強化資通安全的機制他包括了事前的聯防演練定期進行防害演練作業"},{"start":1832.733,"end":1849.967,"text":"與或者是參與主管機關、金管會以及行政院合辦或者是自己辦的資安演練以檢視系統的安全性防禦的有效性還有管理制度的落實性第二個在事中的通報應變部分我們建置多層次的防禦架構"},{"start":1851.849,"end":1864.062,"text":"偵測與攔阻惡意城市與網路威脅．搭配DDoS流量清洗防護的措施．並設置備援系統提升對外服務系統的韌性．第三個就是事後資訊的共享．"},{"start":1865.205,"end":1889.795,"text":"把資安警訊的態樣分享到金融資安資訊分享與分析中心那麼透過資安聯防分析以及回饋強化聯防監控體系以及資安的聯防功能本部將配合數位發展部的資通安全政策以及國家發展委員會的政策會持續強化資通安全管理以及各支的保護措施並且根據督導"},{"start":1890.495,"end":1890.775,"text":"好,謝謝莊部長"},{"start":1910.286,"end":1933.954,"text":"現在開始尋答做以下的宣告每位初期委員發言時間8分鐘必要得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間5分鐘必要得延長1分鐘今日上午10點截止發言登記現在我們請林德副委員稍微等一下"},{"start":1941.775,"end":1941.795,"text":"阿賴賴賴賴賴"},{"start":1982.31,"end":2008.41,"text":"謝謝主席還有莊部長與會各列席銀行的董事長總經理還有各位同仁是不是請那個莊部長莊部長委員長那個部長因為近期很多券商他們在整個交易系統裡面也爆出一些異常"},{"start":2010.495,"end":2034.131,"text":"那這回資安的專題報告是針對財稅機關與公股行庫這個不知道近期是否也有遇到這些網路攻擊的事件有沒有跟委員報告我想網路的攻擊難免會有發生但是我們的公股行庫還有我們的財稅中心在我們的資安防護上是做到"},{"start":2035.573,"end":2063.639,"text":"嚴密,然後能夠阻擋,就先做阻擋。我想這個部分,我們必須要把它當作一個最高的警覺性,然後來做處理。這樣子喔?是。我認為這個很重要。是,當然非常重要。然後我們的相關的防護措施在我們的書面報告裡面也都做,因為要有一些示警。那示警出現了以後,我們要盡快的去做一些處理。那讓這個事情不要影響到我們整個系統的正常運作以及資料的安全。"},{"start":2065.542,"end":2071.131,"text":"部長我再請教因為台青院30日公布10月的製造業景氣燈號"},{"start":2072.918,"end":2094.051,"text":"亮出了連續四顆黃藍燈那臺經院預測中心表示展望未來整個國內製造業景氣現階段已出現了回溫的這些跡象再加上第四季整個年中這個假期消費的旺季也帶來一些這個"},{"start":2096.601,"end":2121.769,"text":"被獲的需求等等有利的因素下．可望維繫整個國內製造業生產的動能那部長先前您在9月出口先前9月出口的388.1億美元中止了12個月的衰退那當時財政部已預告9月歡紅恐是是曇花一現"},{"start":2123.61,"end":2143.707,"text":"那10月恐怕因這個基期的因素再次轉為負成長那對於緊急護書仍是存在有一些疑慮那部長媒體報導臺經驗表示製造業回溫代表有揮別谷底的這些跡象那請問你怎麼來看這個事情"},{"start":2144.944,"end":2155.138,"text":"跟委員報告9月份的我們的出口由衰退轉為正成長那我覺得這是一個很好的現象那10月份我們的出口也有381億但是因為去年達到399億所以算是一個高基期所以是負成長"},{"start":2160.945,"end":2168.331,"text":"其實說那個衰退的幅度已經縮小了那另外也要跟委員報告其實今年的出口1到10月總計有3551億的美元我們預估今年也會突破4000億的美元的一個出口值那在史上來說算是最高的因為2021跟2022是最高因為在疫情期間因為我們的製造業都沒有停"},{"start":2184.125,"end":2194.43,"text":"然後我們的一個資通訊正好在那當時遠距的一個上班跟教學的一個需求所以我們的出口值非常旺都達到4464跟2022年的4794億美元是非常高所以今年也會突破4000億那11月剛剛如同委員剛剛所說的跟12月因為年底的一個備貨的需求以及新科技的一個"},{"start":2208.038,"end":2208.698,"text":"請問你認為景氣即將揮別谷底嗎"},{"start":2226.542,"end":2246.723,"text":"這個部分當然大家都各方面都有一些正面的一些看法但是我們也認為可以做審慎樂觀的看待但是我想國際間仍然有一些不確定的因素包括通膨升息的一些循環的一些後續的一些影響以及地緣政治的一些風險會不會有相關的我覺得還是要密切的一些關注"},{"start":2247.484,"end":2269.262,"text":"是不是有可能像9月10月這種狀況又是只有曇花一現經濟景氣又緩轉會不會跟委員報告就跟您剛剛報告也就是不是曇花一現是因為10月份因為去年的基期399億是非常高的所以我們雖然10月份的出口有381億但是還是成年增率上面是成了一個負成長是那個部長是"},{"start":2270.463,"end":2286.708,"text":"經濟合作發展組織上個禮拜公布最新的經濟展望由於債務水準較高而且利率的這些展望仍不明朗那全球明年經濟成長預料將稍有緩緩但避開硬著陸的風險不長上個禮拜財委會質詢的時候本席有針對"},{"start":2295.731,"end":2318.302,"text":"這個財政部認為出口黎明將至那你認為會不會有太過熱觀跟委員報告因為剛剛如同剛剛報告的其實今年我們的出口會突破4000億也是史上的第三高除了2021跟2022年最高以外我們會突破到4000億那已經比之前的幾年因為從"},{"start":2319.142,"end":2319.842,"text":"你那時候回答本席是11、12月出口,渴望轉正"},{"start":2339.929,"end":2347.031,"text":"請問你認為第4季的出口轉正可以樂觀期待的原因是不是因為你認為第4季是國內經濟成長已經確定的一個股體翻轉"},{"start":2352.938,"end":2381.012,"text":"是不是第4屆我想跟委員報告就是在國內的部分民間的消費是持續的成長不管零售業或者是餐飲這些營業額都是持續成長所以國內的消費動能是穩定的那至於出口的部分我們剛剛也已經說過就是說因年底的部分因為科技新貨的一些備貨以及AI還有雲端需求的一些等等需要的一些我們的一些產品所以在出口值的部分可以"},{"start":2382.453,"end":2386.636,"text":"對於第4屆的出國轉正的看法,針對OECD對明年整個全球經濟成長緩緩的預測,請問你認為明年開始台灣會不會也有這些經濟成長緩緩的餘力存在,會不會?"},{"start":2404.349,"end":2413.034,"text":"有關國內的經濟成長,我們組織總署會綜合國內外的最新經濟情勢做一個案記的發佈的展望,這個組總這個部分會去做他們有相關的資料收集跟有一定的專業人員在那邊做預測那所以呢根據組總11月的他所發佈的就是說今年的經濟成長率會是1.42,但是明年他們的估測是3.35的百分比部長"},{"start":2431.405,"end":2453.4,"text":"因為以OECD的預估美國和其他地區啊陷入硬著陸的這個風險緩解不過由於這個黃式的疲軟油價的高漲和民間融資的情況欠佳那經濟衰退的風險仍然沒有消失所以預測美國明年的經濟成長率將從今年的2.4%明顯的降至1.5%那部長"},{"start":2460.925,"end":2484.364,"text":"因為根據財政部的統計7月臺灣對美國出口的佔總總額是17.4%創下近10年來單月的新高那請問如果明年整個美國經濟成長成長率如OECD預測一樣的衰退你認為臺灣出口會不會受到美國的影響會不會"},{"start":2486.677,"end":2505.955,"text":"委員報告我想這個出口除了美國以外我們主計總署也綜合考量其他的主要經濟體還有全球的一個成長率那另外也考量到我們的產業他在庫存回復健康情況下那世界貿易的成長率貿易量的成長率可以渴望是可以回升的加上我們有人工"},{"start":2506.015,"end":2509.097,"text":"財政部對出口黎明將至的這些樂觀期待會不會變成又要保守的觀望會不會跟委員報告第一我們採取我們是以審慎樂觀但是還是要密切的一些關注"},{"start":2536.271,"end":2553.38,"text":"部長,上個月美國財政部把台灣列入最新的匯率操縱國觀察的名單,但是隨著美國聯準會割派的言論,外資放量大幅度的匯率下,"},{"start":2554.543,"end":2574.815,"text":"新台幣對美元不斷的狂漲後續疫料持續生生不息甚至不排除一舉衝破31元的整個大關請問部長近期新台幣的升值對出口與進口商"},{"start":2575.615,"end":2582.68,"text":"到底有什麼影響我想跟委員報告就是說出口當然也受到新台幣的匯率影響之外當然還有其他很多項因素的影響包含市場的供需狀況還有個別廠商我們出口廠商的競爭力還有產品的品質還有客戶的合作關係這些都會影響到我們的出口值那個別廠商的差異性也比較大所以不能概括而論那我想對於匯率的一個調整對於我們出口廠商的影響"},{"start":2604.915,"end":2610.676,"text":"以及提供要不要提供相關的輔導那主管機關經濟部應該會做一些密切的關注同時如果需要的話他也會應該也會對產業去做相關的輔導其實最近那個經濟部對於我們的產業做低碳化以及智慧化的一個轉型升級一直在加強的輔導也是希望在這個景氣能夠回穩的時候我們的企業能夠有一個成長的一個動能可以做更好的一些發展"},{"start":2634.722,"end":2635.122,"text":"那我請問部長"},{"start":2663.032,"end":2690.524,"text":"出口商對於新台幣升值可能產生的匯損的因應對策是不是都有萬全的準備這個部分因為第一個匯率的部分涉及到央行的一個權責以及出口商在面對匯率的變動的時候他有沒有因應的對策以及經濟部會要採取什麼樣的相關的協助或者是輔導的措施這個部分都會要去考慮的"},{"start":2691.264,"end":2706.997,"text":"為了平仰物價財政部宣布明年大宗物資降稅措施在延長再加上新台幣升值的趨勢那請問你認為對國內整個進口商是不是利多會不會反映在明年整個消費者物價指數上"},{"start":2708.678,"end":2720.802,"text":"財政部在有關降低所謂的關稅、貨物稅還有營業稅這些大宗物資還有汽柴油的一些稅的部分目的就是希望能夠減緩進口商的一個成本的壓力那我們也希望對於這些減稅的措施能夠反映在售價上讓民眾可以感受到"},{"start":2729.284,"end":2732.365,"text":"那這個是部分延長到明年的3月31號這個部分的國稅局還有我們的關區的同仁們會去持續和相關的機關去做一些查價不要變成一些囤積的情形這個部分我們會持續的關注我想降稅這個措施就是要緩和物價的一個上升的措施"},{"start":2757.409,"end":2758.17,"text":"吳秉瑞委員財政部莊部長"},{"start":2782.867,"end":2807.493,"text":"委員好部長早在去年的9月還有今年的5到7月國內有一家銀行當然是民營的啦他的65家分行都發生資料外洩有14000名客戶的資料外洩被金管會罰了1000萬這個事情你應該知道吧"},{"start":2811.793,"end":2830.742,"text":"我們公股銀行有沒有這樣的資料外泄的可能以及有沒有發生這樣的案例或許規模沒有這麼大比較小規模的有沒有我們公股銀行我們大概了解就是說有一些資安的通報的事項但是就相關的"},{"start":2831.442,"end":2833.483,"text":"所以還是有一些發生只是他的狀況可能洩漏少數的人士而不是像這樣大規模"},{"start":2860.155,"end":2884.213,"text":"在發聲我覺得一定要做一些檢討作為精進的一個警示的一個功能這個本身是資訊安全但是另外一點就是現在的詐騙的犯罪很多那詐騙的犯罪裡面有很多是透過銀行的這個系統當然銀行不是不知情那銀行其實某一個角度來講也是被害"},{"start":2885.287,"end":2904.16,"text":"但是如何配合政府的設施用銀行的角度來講能夠讓詐騙的這個狀況能夠減少呢或是讓詐騙犯他這個轉帳各方面不方便使得他不能再利用這樣的體系至少去壓抑他有沒有什麼樣比較好的方法"},{"start":2904.88,"end":2916.507,"text":"我想委員提出的很對,這個部分因為通常詐騙有時候跟金流會有關係,所以我們在銀行端一定要做到一個防詐、試詐的一個發揮這個作用,所以在客戶開戶的時候要詳細了解他開戶的目的是什麼,以及他賬戶未來的用途是什麼,對於開戶者要多加了解。"},{"start":2924.531,"end":2939.41,"text":"第2個就是說對於一些警示的帳戶要有警覺性一定要做處理同時我們要配合金管會的相關措施以及所謂的一個揮名單就是約定轉帳的揮名單也要有非常重要的一個處理還有櫃員非常重要"},{"start":2939.83,"end":2944.412,"text":"貴賓對於客戶的時候可以多問幾句那如果在這個過程當中因為貴賓的關懷所以讓這個詐騙沒有辦法進行下去我們對於這個貴賓應該要加強的管這個獎勵然後能夠讓其他的行員也都知道那我們把案例也要做分享"},{"start":2957.338,"end":2969.651,"text":"那這樣大家可以多做學習然後更精進我想這個部分銀行是絕對是責無旁貸一起來做這個工作有沒有統計過經過採取這樣的措施之後詐騙這個數量有降低了這樣的一個趨勢就是說發現了多少詐騙的減少多少這個部分的數字是不是沒有統計目前我們還沒有統計"},{"start":2980.122,"end":3008.706,"text":"11月29號你們財政部也有發現說有用釣魚的電子郵件假冒這個報稅服務然後叫退稅然後點那個系統進去有發現這樣子的案例所以這個也是一種另外一種詐騙那是利用這個報稅或是要退稅這樣的這樣的機會在詐欺這些客戶這個你有沒有什麼樣的好的宣傳因為其實一般的民眾尤其年紀稍大一點的他搞不清楚這些網站到底是誰的網站"},{"start":3010.829,"end":3033.638,"text":"這個部分發現了我們一定都有相關的處理然後截止但我想你委員這個提示是就是說我們要做什麼宣導也就是第一個宣導的目的是讓民眾不要再受騙第二個目的其實就讓這些詐騙者不要存僥倖的心理因為我們會抓得到因為我們是24小時在監控你這些偉貌的網站及釣魚網站我覺得這個具有兩方面的功能我們應該再加強這個宣導"},{"start":3035.759,"end":3037.92,"text":"其實這個議題是本席從12年前到現在還是持續一直在關心的就是曝險的問題"},{"start":3064.4,"end":3083.762,"text":"你知道中國的這個中融信託最近爆了你知道嗎他的那個基金還有利息賠付不出來那中融信託當然規模比較小但是他是一個非常大的金融機構中子集團底下的議員這個"},{"start":3086.55,"end":3107.222,"text":"因為這個中子集團做了很多中國的房貸那在中國做房貸你就說中國現在那些房子那個房子都很慘嘛爛尾樓也蓋不完各方面都很慘包括恆大啦包括碧桂園啊等等很多個大型的這個房屋的房企"},{"start":3108.505,"end":3108.525,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":3128.649,"end":3155.052,"text":"我們公股銀行9家公股銀行對中國的撲選持續減少我這個是很肯定就算持續減少現在仍然還有2000多億還不包括這個沒有被金管會監管的影子銀行這些租賃公司那中國的經濟他的財政明顯在很快速的要出問題在這樣的狀況之下有什麼好的方法讓我們這個撲選不會變成暴雷"},{"start":3157.984,"end":3180.639,"text":"您有沒有什麼樣的想法?是,跟委員報告,確實在大陸曝險的部分,我們逐年下降,目前是2143億,那佔比是12%,就是佔它的淨值比。那剛剛您提到大陸的一些經濟成長趨緩,甚至在不動產的部分,碧桂園等等的一些暴雷的情形,當然銀行都會有受到牽連。那有關,我們講,我們會持續的督請我們的公股,"},{"start":3183.661,"end":3209.655,"text":"的代表對於大陸地區的不管是徵售性或你剛剛講的相關的業務還有貸貨管理的措施要加強進行控管同時對於客戶客戶他整體曝險的進行要進行控管也就是我們在大陸的客戶對他的一個情形要加強的控管我想這個部分是應該要做的現在九家公股銀行在中國的客戶如果照以前張勝和在當財政部長的時候他是跟我回答說主要都是做台商"},{"start":3210.815,"end":3235.794,"text":"那現在呢還是主要是台商還是有一些中國那邊的企業主要當然還是台商為主對台商為主但是所謂的為主為輔是怎麼樣為主50%也可以說為主啊那比例是怎麼樣比例的部分我想這個部分我們手邊並沒有是我們是不是會後再來做一些瞭解跟委員報告我還記得在這個"},{"start":3238.196,"end":3246.651,"text":"2015年的時候還有某家我們公股銀行在大陸的時候在放貸的時候還有被錄影有這個收回扣這樣的狀況那個事情處理了嗎"},{"start":3250.369,"end":3252.471,"text":"我現在希望你們能夠統計到底做的"},{"start":3276.391,"end":3292.359,"text":"你說這個曝險兩千一百多億多少比例是台商的多少比例非台商的至少要給一個大概的數字另外我們九家公股銀行在中國的這一些都是分行不是子行吧有沒有子行的"},{"start":3294.327,"end":3320.029,"text":"有哪個紙行張瑩如果是紙行紙行是比較好你知道嗎因為紙行跟母行是不同的法人所以中間還有一個這還有一個防火牆可以隔開分行是沒辦法隔開的所以你在分行在如果在中國這邊如果將來如果踩雷爆雷了之後他整個母公司都會受到影響從分行會燒出來"},{"start":3321.71,"end":3326.112,"text":"臺商在中國的製造業也慢慢有一些在轉移了有一些移回來臺灣有一些移到東南亞"},{"start":3337.276,"end":3337.616,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3352.305,"end":3352.445,"text":"謝謝 各位請回"},{"start":3382.898,"end":3383.484,"text":"接著請賴氏寶委員"},{"start":3404.345,"end":3426.012,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請財政部的莊部長以及八大行庫的董事長莊部長跟八大行庫的是金控還是銀行金控金控如果沒有金控的話就是銀行"},{"start":3434.972,"end":3455.082,"text":"先看一下,來幾位長官先看下一頁好了,再下一頁我們今年幾乎是這幾年來金礦賺最多的一年吧,是不是?獲利,獲利不錯獲利最好嘛,造風雷董事長啊"},{"start":3456.4,"end":3477.734,"text":"聽說員工很喜歡你,說你很大方,你們賺了288億啊,在10月底,是嗎?明年加薪多少?4.5%有人在講你現在賺這麼多,4.5%是半年前預估的,現在賺這麼多,可以再加個0.5%有沒有可能?"},{"start":3478.797,"end":3480.338,"text":"這個我看到的是義營4%華營4%張營4%何苦都不加是吧何苦都不加"},{"start":3505.922,"end":3526.593,"text":"董事長報告委員我們也是4%為目標但是我們平常就是確定沒有確定沒有確定了確定了4%確定4%但是我們還有晉級加薪那個2.66%的還有一個是台企要台企多少4%4%台灣金寇跟土耳其4%是吧都4%是吧好部長有一個問題啊是"},{"start":3536.312,"end":3554.219,"text":"剛才何苦董事長講說賺這麼多錢啊你們還要扣勞工的員工的伙食費600塊600塊以前是2400塊免稅今年財政部調了3000塊就600塊是免稅變3000結果所有的要加薪的行庫都把600塊變成include內加內含應該是外加"},{"start":3566.74,"end":3569.65,"text":"這600塊我就跟你講的是這600塊應該外加不是內涵部長你知道我講什麼嗎"},{"start":3573.977,"end":3592.846,"text":"因為我們這次調2000是到3000塊那個是說在這裡面不用把它放到員工的薪水裡面去所以這個部分是不納入員工薪資所以不會載入它綜合所得的裡面去可是雷董市長你錢賺最多的"},{"start":3599.571,"end":3626.734,"text":"你們這個六百塊你們把它內涵了他給你六百塊你把它內涵了所以等於沒有加我們再加給他們extra外加可以嗎extraextra對可是臺灣金庫來來來臺灣金庫你們是內涵的喔你們內涵喔你是要內涵外加吧抱歉我剛剛沒有注意到你剛才outside沒有認真聽啊你知不知道"},{"start":3628.654,"end":3641.558,"text":"現在所有的公股行庫的金扣的員工他的伙食費加600你知道嗎你也不知道這我沒注意你董事長說什麼你現在不知道勞工的權利600塊那個國營行庫都是內涵的國營行庫內涵何苦的外交呢兆豐"},{"start":3659.418,"end":3670.167,"text":"報告委員 處理的方式不同啦 因為以前在省屬行庫的時候都是內涵 但是後來改變成現在改變外加啦 人家處理方式不同"},{"start":3677.36,"end":3696.501,"text":"張華英郎,你們的員工聲音叫很大聲喔,說你這個苛刻員工啊,這應該外加的喔,變內涵捏。你不是臺土營啊,臺土營啊,另外講。我們沒有苛刻員工啊。那你為什麼把他內涵捏,不要外加捏。照封就外加捏。"},{"start":3698.15,"end":3704.514,"text":"這個就是因為財政部有公布就是火石貨幣...我們是依照財政部的相關的規定那對員工來講的話..."},{"start":3714,"end":3732.853,"text":"不是,我們為員工的福利著想的話,我們把他加的伙食費,加了600塊之後,其實這部分是屬於他的免稅所得啦。沒有,你是include,我現在跟你們講,部長好好研究啦,大家八大行工與世同仁,你不要大家心裡不一樣,造風就外加,其他的就是內涵。"},{"start":3733.633,"end":3749.747,"text":"這件事有相對的剝奪感,部長,去研究一下吧,可以嗎?於是同仁都外加,不要內涵啦,不一樣啦,差很多啦,減六百咧,一年就差七千多喔,你知道我意思嗎?"},{"start":3750.787,"end":3775.5,"text":"我想委員您的意思應該是指火石費是不是要把它放在薪資外面對!就是你不要放在薪資裡面嘛!火石費要放在薪資外啦!對不對?不能放在加薪裡面啦!它不算加薪的那個4%裡面啦!你只要等於把他拖了600塊啦!那我們再進一步了解好不好?這個銀行我剛剛列了那個銀行每一屆都大賺錢"},{"start":3776.741,"end":3790.676,"text":"每一家都搭賺錢你跟員工績效600塊沒有道理啊沒有天亮啊了解了解委員的意思我們再進一步了解各位董事長各位董事長請回答特別那個張華英讓林董事長你回答非常"},{"start":3792.357,"end":3808.444,"text":"林董事長的回答非常的狀況外你不是土銀也不是台銀董事長你是彰化銀行不一樣你如果今天講台銀土銀還可以講你今天是彰化銀行不能這樣講你要比這兆豐比這兆豐來我們來看今天講資訊了"},{"start":3820.411,"end":3828.665,"text":"綜合所得稅可以線上報稅網頁報稅可以嘛手機驗證可是移屬稅、營業稅、醫政稅、政理稅都要用特別軟體下載"},{"start":3836.063,"end":3858.456,"text":"來,張主任,可不可以概稱啊,我知道張主任才不太會回答這問題什麼時候可以不需要下載軟體直接比照中屬稅用網頁審報、手機驗證、線上保險,可以嗎?可以嗎?我們再研究一下,因為這個稅的方式不一樣這個要做很快"},{"start":3862.366,"end":3869.921,"text":"請問你有沒有往這個努力方向?應該往這個方向努力我們會往這個方向來努力啦什麼時候會有答案?"},{"start":3872.085,"end":3881.791,"text":"我想會在更新系統之後我們預計在明年明年6月可以吧114年會有新系統目前的系統113年還是舊系統114所以我們不能講114年開始"},{"start":3894.958,"end":3908.918,"text":"可以包括銀索稅、銀頁稅、移證稅統統不需要再下載一個軟體那個像盲腸一樣啊直接我們就一樣線上進步一點啦與師同居俱進"},{"start":3910.62,"end":3910.8,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3929.429,"end":3929.449,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":3948.629,"end":3950.57,"text":"總共花多少錢?大概400萬左右400萬喔?那效果怎麼樣?"},{"start":3968.105,"end":3971.148,"text":"壓力測試你們有過關嗎?過關上線沒有上線沒有已經上線了"},{"start":3989.988,"end":3993.111,"text":"我從經濟部商業室可以找到公司的負責人姓名也可以找到個人身分證"},{"start":4019.721,"end":4046.26,"text":"我們現在不要懷疑部長你我的名字都被賣掉了我們的個資都被賣掉了在世界上都被賣掉了結果呢來我們來看下一頁我個人比如張三啊是A公司的負責人我就進去財政部點資深報教水服務網"},{"start":4048.42,"end":4070.362,"text":"裏面我就可以重新reset重新設定裏面的一些的參數等等的簡單來講就是現在我們的個資已經外洩我透過經濟部知道哪一家公司的負責人比如說這負責人叫賴某某然後我看到他的身份證我用他來"},{"start":4071.643,"end":4098.775,"text":"進到財政部裡面了報稅的資料就可以改欸可以改欸要多繳的變少繳少繳的變多繳看到的目的是什麼變這個樣子欸目前目前這個來來來我再補充一下就是經濟部的這部分因為他是營業人他登記的營業人的資料他是必須要公開的所以他是可以查到但是他查到的時候到財政部的密碼不應該會是一樣的"},{"start":4105.504,"end":4126.052,"text":"我現在告訴你已經有人進去了透過你這個電子申報繳稅服務網就進去裡面這些都可以reset把它改請問怎麼辦我剛剛特別問你紅隊演練你沒有演練到這個地方啊稅的資料如果被篡改怎麼辦"},{"start":4128.01,"end":4144.483,"text":"我想這個部分我們會針對他這個密碼的驗證的部分再做加強就要求他有雙重的兩種因子我知道你答案就在這裡啦其實你的密碼提示這個人家駭客要做很簡單他破你這個都很容易啦用幾個下去跑幾次密碼就跑出來我覺得這一部分我剛才很遺憾的聽到"},{"start":4156.011,"end":4180.184,"text":"我剛才以為你們報告很偉大紅堆引力其實大家最在意的不是只有發票啦在意的是稅啦種所稅、營所稅、營業稅最在意結果你們現在這個東西是開大門根本空空的要加強好不好先做一個我這裡就兩個重點第一個重點我們希望"},{"start":4181.164,"end":4204.291,"text":"一年以後能夠全部線上不要再下載你的軟體第二個你的這個稅的安全的資安的問題我覺得可以再強化了目前不夠目前看到是沒有沒有做這個事情了解一下就一個名字加上一個身分證號就可以進到我們報稅系統改資料我覺得這個我們再詳細了解一下一個情況謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":4210.742,"end":4227.112,"text":"好 謝謝各位請回接著請省發會委員主席請莊部長好 莊部長委員好部長早"},{"start":4237.662,"end":4261.344,"text":"這個今天第一個想跟部長探討一下有關我們現在我們鼓勵這個小規模營業人他能夠導入這個行動支付接受這個消費者使用行動支付的這樣子的我們為了這個能夠鼓勵這些小規模的營業人所以我們有一個辦法"},{"start":4262.625,"end":4272.612,"text":"有一個作業規範叫做小規模營業人導入行動支付適用租稅優惠作業規範對不對這個規範好像是107年開始實施了那108年的時候有延長了那這個"},{"start":4282.11,"end":4302.898,"text":"他大概就是說我看大意大概是這樣子這個作業規範就是說你如果來申請申請經過核准你使用這個行動支付的話你可以有一些租稅優惠"},{"start":4304.588,"end":4319.013,"text":"最主要就是按照營業稅法第32條第一項的單書他就變成營業性質特殊的營業人營業性質特殊的營業人他就不受使用統一發票的標準的限制"},{"start":4321.142,"end":4348.681,"text":"包括它的銷售平均每個月要20萬這個限制就沒有了對不對?是是,縱使超過也是還是適用它原來沒有超過但是它有一些申請要件它不是說你有用行動支付就可以享受這個租稅優惠有一些申請要件包括你要使用智慧行動載具包括你要由這個行動支付業者來提出申請"},{"start":4350.022,"end":4360.006,"text":"包括說要提供你們的銷售資料、銷售額、營業額等等相關的申請條件請問部長這個規範是從大概107年就開始了107年原本是107年到109年了108年的時候我們再延長5年我們會一直實施到114年就是2025年會實施到2025年"},{"start":4378.447,"end":4389.015,"text":"財政部長這個到目前為止的實施成效怎麼樣?到目前為止已經有核准的有1萬7099家的小規模營業人適用這一項的優惠"},{"start":4398.594,"end":4421.562,"text":"這個一萬七千零九十九家這個是從一百零七年累積到現在對不對是的是的一百零七年累積到今年一百一十二年全國才一萬七千零九十九家是用這個租稅優惠而已是來提出申請對提出申請也核准了我們跟去年比較啦齁去年一年大概增加多少家"},{"start":4422.458,"end":4449.231,"text":"去年一月到...您說說今年是不是?我跟你講今年跟去年齁我這邊幫你算了啦今年度齁大概增加三千家啦對不對一整年大概增加三千家對不對?署長對不對?今年增加三千家啦齁三千家也就平均一個月大概差不多兩百三十三家啦"},{"start":4450.914,"end":4470.211,"text":"233家我們以這個我們台灣22縣市來看每個縣市平均大概一年只增加10家左右而已部長這個我們有鼓勵到嗎?我們有推廣到嗎?這個申請是不是我們有沒有檢討我們這個"},{"start":4472.282,"end":4474.105,"text":"這個租稅優惠的規範的這個相關的規定是不是為什麼這麼多年107年到現在才全台灣才1萬家1萬7千家"},{"start":4485.749,"end":4511.001,"text":"從委員做的這張表裡面非常詳細我們可以看出來一開始的成長比較快到後來就呈現一個緩慢的一個趨勢我想這個部分我們確實應該要去了解原因在哪裡然後能夠針對這樣的一個原因去做一個解決然後達到鼓勵小規模營業人能夠導入行動支付我想這個部分是委員的提示對我現在就是要你們檢討為什麼要找原因嘛是對要找原因對"},{"start":4515.884,"end":4539.751,"text":"是,報告委員,因為所有導入行動支付,它小規模依然還是要符合一些硬體的要件,簡單講,它必要有行動支付的一些設備之類的,所以他們考量的因素很多,但是我們現在國稅局,我們請各地區國會局都加強輔導,然後其實像有一些中介業者,包含記者業者都有協助我們去宣導,怎麼樣去導入。"},{"start":4539.991,"end":4541.632,"text":"工具上面可以簡化然後再去針對他們的真正的問題然後做輔導我想這是有必要的"},{"start":4569.107,"end":4569.367,"text":"好的,我們來檢討"},{"start":4597.248,"end":4612.175,"text":"再來就是你這些小的營業人他自己本身的疑慮我想問署長我這個問署長不要問署長署長請問這些小規模營業人他如果導入這個行動支付申請這個租稅優惠他的整體賦稅會不會變重"},{"start":4615.047,"end":4635.857,"text":"應該這樣說就稅率它是維持百分之一整體負稅會不會變重但是它實際銷售額如果增加那我們根據它實際銷售額來合併它實際銷售額增加當然就增加啦我是說它如果它就是以這個要件它導入這個行動支付之後申請這個租稅優惠會不會因為這個申請而使它的負稅變重"},{"start":4636.957,"end":4637.337,"text":"這個Q&A裡面的第10點"},{"start":4660.083,"end":4671.67,"text":"第10點所問的問題Q就是我剛剛一字不漏的問你的問題但是你們的A裡面回答不是像你說不會你們回答是未必會增加"},{"start":4673.644,"end":4679.708,"text":"委員因為這是他實際銷售的增加所以你們這個Q&A到底回答了什麼人家這些小規模業人就是怕說我用這個我付稅款來增加到底會不會你們說不一定會啦"},{"start":4691.735,"end":4691.995,"text":"這個學法是..."},{"start":4712.592,"end":4738.451,"text":"報告委員他是把剛才您問我的前段實際銷售額增加的時候他說服會增加這件事情他把病到這個回答裡面去敘述了這個齁我們整個都要檢討啦包括我剛講的這些要件像你們這種Q&A你們這種要設身處地站在這些小規模營業人的立場來想想像為什麼大家申請的這個我們申請的比例這麼低啦"},{"start":4740.902,"end":4759.885,"text":"再來部長另外一個問題我們這個從這個實施清安貸款從今年我們新的這個今年安心成家購屋的優惠貸款新的制度今年8月1號上路了"},{"start":4761.027,"end":4786.498,"text":"是這個我們的額度提高嘛我們的這個年限也延長嘛那我們的利率補貼也增加嘛所以這個看起來從8月到現在從今年我們看今年8月到10月我看這個我們的這個成效是爆量了申請是爆量是增加倍數增加對跟去年的同期是倍數增加對跟去年同期是倍數增加"},{"start":4787.964,"end":4816.293,"text":"我這裡有這個一個比較在去年包括不管是我們的這個申請的戶數或核貸的戶數或核貸的金額或者是我們受理的戶數受理的金額都幾乎幾乎這個都是倍數成長了都倍數成長所以這個政策齁這個政策我們應該要多多宣導我們要讓大家青年知道說我們現在這個優惠我們看我們這樣子增加之後我們"},{"start":4817.473,"end":4835.448,"text":"這個新的制度之後就增加這麼多人來申請我們的親安貸款所以我們應該更應該財政部應該加強宣導說我們有這樣子的方案對不對我想這個因為我們親安貸款是對於首購主所以這些應該都是第一次買房子對他們來說有很大的一個幫助"},{"start":4836.649,"end":4862.044,"text":"讓他減輕初期的貸款負擔我現在這樣爆量但是我看這個我們現在這個新興貸款上路8月上路以後我們公股的辦理的情形在我們公股來講看起來還集中在台銀跟土銀台銀跟土銀加起來大概就差不多45%了將近快要一半其他的公股行戶他所佔的相關的這些業務量其實都還蠻低他們都還有宣導的空間對不對"},{"start":4865.941,"end":4886.574,"text":"因為這裡看起來台銀跟土銀的比例都佔到26%跟25%可是我們做一個宣導齁有一個前幾天叫里長買票被抓的這個立委候選人說說我們這個這個我們強制說我們這個財政部強迫公股做宣導他說這個是大內宣這個是洗腦"},{"start":4892.145,"end":4908.183,"text":"部長這樣子的政策對於首次購屋的青年來講是有這樣子的優惠而且有這麼大的幫助我們從這個新的制度8月到10月我們就看到它所爆出來的量跟成效我們就知道幫助很大應該要加強宣導"},{"start":4909.344,"end":4928.814,"text":"他不是什麼洗腦也不是什麼大內宣他就是一個加強宣導也是我們除了台銀、土銀以外其他公股行戶彰化銀行等公股行戶應該要加強宣導的對不對是的我們希望首購族都能夠享受到這個政府優惠的一個措施"},{"start":4929.674,"end":4951.026,"text":"所以部長這部分我希望說我們能夠讓更多更多的這些手夠的青年能夠了解到我們政府現在有這樣子的貸款方式然後有我們所有這些行庫大家都可以做這樣子的貸款這個部分請我們要加強宣導要加強這個宣傳好不好是謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝各位請會接著請郭國文委員"},{"start":4961.83,"end":4989.646,"text":"主席有請莊部長莊部長委員好部長好我想今天針對今天主席所安排這個專題報告的內容來說的話洋洋灑灑你們寫了好幾頁不論是項目跟內容羅列了許多但是本席想要知道的是說到底這些惡意的這個治安的攻擊他的目標"},{"start":4991.428,"end":4991.708,"text":"哪個財啊?"},{"start":5017.745,"end":5036.894,"text":"就是從個人資料取得資訊的財可以拿到個人資料然後還有機會拿到取到金錢或者是拿去賣還有包括惡意阻斷他也不是要什麼他就是把你癱瘓而已那你們哪幾個單位這種現象最嚴重哪個單位最有財啊"},{"start":5043.621,"end":5045.723,"text":"財經中心最嚴重對不對?那最嚴重大概多少筆?都沒有看到你寫啊!像那個官茂就有五萬多筆啊!"},{"start":5061.952,"end":5080.676,"text":"我們並沒有洩漏個人資料我不是說你洩漏個人資料我說那被攻擊的次數因為台灣是被被網軍攻擊被駭客入侵最嚴重我就想要知道到底財政部是哪幾個部門或哪幾個公股銀行受到這一個網軍最大的興趣我要知道的是這一個啊"},{"start":5081.596,"end":5107.351,"text":"這才知道你的目標對象是誰他背後的目的是什麼然後你重點要防範的是什麼我都看不出來我就看到你這寫了一大堆啷啷洋洋灑灑的一個措施內容但是我是覺得你應該從目標導向來倒推回來才對啊處長是嗎你有沒有會診過我本席就問你這一點就好這當然有當然有有我想要看的報告我都看不到啊你有的都沒有寫出來"},{"start":5108.791,"end":5133.427,"text":"是不方便透露還是實體下可以給我還是給主席也一份好了我先跟委員報告就是攻擊次數跟攻擊成功是不一樣的那我們只知道目前的現況到底多嚴重哪些受到攻擊最嚴重這份報告當中沒有看到這個所以我們可以會後補充攻擊的數字接下來我想請部長"},{"start":5135.555,"end":5141.805,"text":"財政部知道這個手法之後馬上就會立即通知交給165警政署處理是不是165專線"},{"start":5149.407,"end":5167.647,"text":"那這跟民間的報案有什麼不一樣我們是官方機構欸對啊難道沒有一個斷然的措施嗎通知數位部立即斷網嗎啊任由那個網路上還有人拿著財政部的名號在那邊招搖撞騙這有損政府名譽欸沒有這種方式嗎"},{"start":5168.788,"end":5192.638,"text":"方式裡面沒有這個就是第一個我們給165第二個就是你通報程序就一般民眾有什麼不一樣他們去判斷以後就可以去做下架對啊要立即斷網嘛你還在通報程序讓他再繼續招搖撞騙然後另外一個時機點也不對嘛他那個時機點你們一般退稅是7月10月跟隔年的1月嘛而且詐騙時機點也不對啊不是嗎"},{"start":5195.197,"end":5223.651,"text":"這民眾不清楚你在通報退稅的時間點嘛不是嗎跟委員報告就是因為入口進去的話繳稅的部分就會到財經公司那財經公司這邊的這個合作方式就是直接透過165詐騙那165他這邊因為有行事警察局有做協詢跟切斷的這個作業我是那個處長這種方式他要留於流程啦程序啦"},{"start":5224.13,"end":5242.65,"text":"我意思是說要有一個斷然的處理方式啦政府機關跟這個不一樣而且跟民眾的宣導也要有那個時間點的概念根本不太可能現在有11月有退稅的事情發生嘛好我再拉回來跟你講一樣是詐騙的齁那處長就上來了我拉回來講那CRS的部分查稅又查詔的部分齁"},{"start":5243.871,"end":5267.206,"text":"你知道那個部長我們跟澳洲跟日本英國有簽訂這個CRS共同申報準則這所謂的台版肥咖條款我今天先不問你說你現在找到多少肥咖那麻煩你回去稍微找一下但是這個肥咖的部分找到之後你有可能會揪出犯罪集團的海外資產嗎有沒有可能"},{"start":5268.339,"end":5287.733,"text":"我想這個部分是一個互相通報的一個對阿互相通報也就是說這個詐騙集團他也可能是肥咖阿只是怎麼肥的方式不一樣而已阿有的是用騙來變肥的阿有的是用賺來變肥的阿只是不同樣的肥咖的肥咖那有沒有可能透過同樣的一個機制裡頭把它查到"},{"start":5290.858,"end":5312.257,"text":"這兩個應該功能上不太一樣第一個我們就是要知道就是說因為他把錢存在海外的帳戶突然暴增的時候你們兩國之間互相通報你也可以看得出來啊對不對重點是核對嘛對不對共同申報核對嘛怎麼突然他的帳戶突然增加了增加的時候你可能就去查"},{"start":5312.978,"end":5335.487,"text":"查後面可能就查出來可能是詐騙集團所以你可以一兼兩顧這個主要是基於稅務用途需要的一個金融資訊的一個教材你就是想只有想到稅務而已本期想到的不止稅務主管機關在查緝的時候如果發現有當然有其他的方法或是細節的方法可以的既能查稅又能查詐"},{"start":5337.308,"end":5358.382,"text":"對不對?是有這種功能啊!我一直說你要注意到有這種功能那既然有這種功能的話你就不應該澳洲、日本、英國之外那我就要問啊那我們在海外所得比較多的國家是這三個國家難道沒有其他的國家嗎?還有吧歐盟啊、美國啊或中國啊我們一個一個逐步在推動那下一個是哪一個?"},{"start":5359.082,"end":5375.019,"text":"下一個這個可能我們還在努力這個加商當中媒體都透露出來說你要找歐盟了你還這麼含蓄你就不能跟我本席透露一下跟委員會透露一下嗎這個我想我們在努力當中是是是"},{"start":5378.462,"end":5397.558,"text":"不要這麼含蓄部長已經提醒好幾遍了有就說我是覺得你這個通報的準則來說這個台版的肥咖條款不是找到肥咖而是找到壞咖這個要把它找出來保證功能性增加最近部長有跑出去演講"},{"start":5399.64,"end":5427.634,"text":"演講有提到那個促餐的部分你說促餐的部分國內今年度會增加2000億那也標示了有五大的這個公共設施的商業模式出來那其中連政府吞輸都搬出來了這個我覺得這個實在沒有什麼太多的討論的意義自償性我是覺得不知道從哪邊來那農業設施的能力我知道政府部門的預算已經投入非常多本身要就教於你的是說"},{"start":5429.185,"end":5452.241,"text":"難道國家已經投入這麼多農業設施的能源你還有標的還有可能有空間來進行那個BOT嗎你們到底有沒有對照過我現在看到的一般BOT是補預算之不足我們才需要把這個項目之補上去既然國家預算已經投入這麼多了你還有剩餘的空間來做這部分的一個補位嗎這是第一啦"},{"start":5452.861,"end":5470.388,"text":"第一我覺得五大項目我懷疑的地方是在這個你到底有沒有跟國家預算裡頭對照過有沒有對照過第二就我的理解的部分現在國家預算裡頭最缺的就是軌道建設的部分反而軌道建設之後就沒有過去的BOT的部分你們只要舉凡到交通了就是停車場"},{"start":5471.621,"end":5490.523,"text":"就是停車場還是停車場全部都是停車場的投資就從來沒有真正的所謂大家期待的軌道運輸的一個投資而且是停車場還是在車站附近的停車場那都是罵的罵罵罵的而且不是一般民眾所需求的就很奇怪部長要回答一下本席"},{"start":5491.465,"end":5513.859,"text":"委員您提到有關促餐2.0的部分除了公務預算的編列之外我們希望其他的重要的一個設施也能夠用促餐來做部長有些是太多有些是不足我們重點是要彌補不足吧對沒有錯不是為了做而做"},{"start":5514.819,"end":5542.51,"text":"主辦機關的一個動能很重要如果主辦機關他要採取促參我們絕對是財政部是一定會去做協助跟告訴他們什麼做對那當然是的我們知道認為說哪一些是很重要的基礎建設以及最需要的國家的建設那您提到我們有說冷鏈不重要但是你有沒有通盤檢討過到底國家投入的冷鏈的普及度到哪裡是"},{"start":5543.55,"end":5565.957,"text":"那這裡面對這裡面很重要是提到是新設的一些今這次2.0裡面增加的一些項目那您提到的一個軌道建設軌道建設依促參來說是可以做依照促參法可以做但是它的投資金額很高那所以在促參法這個部分我們其實今年也修正後也增加了有償提供那個公共服務的機制這個目的就是讓"},{"start":5568.078,"end":5576.805,"text":"本席最後問你一個問題啊5月17號的時候我就就教於你最近你們消息放出來有關於這個入境旅客攜帶行李免稅額度你們在討論所以到底是多少兩萬三萬四萬聽說三萬跟四萬之間好像在報名牌"},{"start":5597.822,"end":5612.91,"text":"沒有,這個部分一定是會比兩萬多啦那這個部分我們也參考到國際的一些案例還有另外也請相關的機關再表示意見你有沒有參考本席的建議從78年全年物價指數那時候60.99到現在111年現在已經102.95那加成起來的話算起來是33760有沒有可能用一個比較公式化的方式組長來發揮一下"},{"start":5622.414,"end":5649.765,"text":"是 報告委員 我們的確有參考委員的建議啦用這個物價指數 從78年到現在的一個飆漲當然我們會參考其他國際的一些做法 會綜合一些考量啦對 你們參考 我看你列舉了日本或那個新加坡 韓國都是低的啊你要列舉高的啊沒有 日本現在是全世界最高對啊 日本是相對高的啊 其他兩個都低的啊所以三萬四算是合理的是不是對好 謝謝你好 謝謝"},{"start":5651.785,"end":5654.447,"text":"臺銀董事長總經理臺銀董事長總經理然後土銀的董事長總經理兆豐金控董事長總經理"},{"start":5680.939,"end":5704.378,"text":"趙峰銀,總經理台灣銀行的總經理因為身體不太舒服沒關係,今天有出席的還有第一金控的董事長總經理第一銀行的總經理華南金控董事長總經理華南銀行總經理合作金庫董事長總經理合營的董事長總經理張營董事長總經理"},{"start":5713.442,"end":5736.452,"text":"總經理不好意思只有第一題要請教大家而已所以第一題完之後大家就可以入座第一個我要請問我們看到有用大內宣的情形我要請問一下大家有收到張瑩的這封函的請舉手知道這件事情的請舉手"},{"start":5738.476,"end":5762.927,"text":"沒有人?好那張瑩董事長這封函是不是張瑩發的?張瑩有沒有發給這個各個公股銀行就是要求他們要這個一起來共襄盛舉然後要這個要有這個脫波的這個費用然後這個各家銀行出資一千萬然後金控是兩千萬有這樣訊息的請舉手沒有沒有這樣訊息的請舉手"},{"start":5769.124,"end":5792.232,"text":"好,那個是哪一位舉手,沒有這樣的訊息的,是不是後面的,哪一位?哪個銀行,請說一下,好吧?啊?第一金控沒有這樣的情形,然後其他的不舉手是什麼意思?就是有也不舉手,沒有也不舉手,你知道我在這個學校任教EMBA呢,就是如果"},{"start":5793.55,"end":5800.74,"text":"回答問問題不回答的話就是有公積金出來你們這個有也不是沒有也不是這個態度是什麼意思"},{"start":5803.603,"end":5830.115,"text":"來請回答一下那個張瑩你有沒有要求不是不是我跟委員報告一下其實這個就是所有的這些所謂對我們一些公股的一些績效的一些呈現我們平常其實也會拍攝一些廣告啊短片金額是不是像你所要求的你的意思是說這個不是第一次你每一年都會要求各個公股銀行然後要來做這個拍攝的廣告每一年都有的"},{"start":5833.116,"end":5850.883,"text":"每一年都有嗎?你報告要針對我的問題嗎?我沒有問你今年,你每一年都有嗎?我每一年都會有拍攝一些形象的廣告你每一年都會邀請八大行庫要脫波?不會,只有今年邀請八大行庫脫波?"},{"start":5851.903,"end":5852.223,"text":"財政部部長"},{"start":5882.764,"end":5905.32,"text":"有沒有給這個函或收到類似這樣子怎麼樣子有效宣傳提升公股行庫企業形象這個函張瑩有沒有發或者你們現在上台的各個公股銀行金控你們有沒有收到這樣的函或者是你們有沒有做類似這樣的一個事情有的我再給你一次機會有的請舉手"},{"start":5907.169,"end":5933.789,"text":"等一下在後面的各位董事長總經理有知道這件事情的請舉手不知道的請舉手這什麼狀況啊主席我先暫停一下這個他們可以這個不回答嗎有也沒有舉手沒有也不舉手那是什麼意思呢是上台當布警嗎還是是什麼意思呢"},{"start":5935.68,"end":5961.676,"text":"你們不是憲法有備詢的義務嗎?部長 這個怎麼是 李委員問的 有舉手 沒有舉手 兩個都沒有還是你們規定他們通通都不可以回答沒有 沒有規定不是 你有收到這個函件或者是你知道這件事情的舉手啊?"},{"start":5962.847,"end":5963.307,"text":"委員問的問題我們從來都是如實回答"},{"start":5991.297,"end":6018.897,"text":"好,如實回答,但你的八大公股行庫的,他們不回答啊,剛剛只有一個,那個第一銀行的請回,因為你已經回答了,第一銀行的請回,剛才第一銀行的請回,就是說,你知道,就你所知沒有這樣的情形請回,其他的這個八大行庫的這個董事長總經理,再給你一次機會,你知道這樣的事情的請舉手。好,現在巡查開始。請舉手,知道的請舉手。"},{"start":6021.092,"end":6022.573,"text":"不知道的請舉手好 暫停休息五分鐘厲害了現在我們的國會等同虛設啊厲害了還是部長你既然找了這些董事長總經理他們什麼都不知道也拒絕按照憲法的義務履行是不是全部換掉啊"},{"start":6050.225,"end":6069.825,"text":"我想財政部也不是說全部換掉就可以換掉跟委員報告為什麼呢因為我們需要養這麼多人你要開始還是沒有辦法你可以停五分鐘我沒問題我只是提醒他們憲法還有備詢的義務休息五分鐘我要離開主席台了好休息五分鐘"},{"start":6130.033,"end":6130.053,"text":"啊"},{"start":6448.238,"end":6471.503,"text":"我要跟財委會報告立法委員代表人民行使對行政單位的監督立法委員問的問題各位官員必須得回答必須得回答至於你要怎麼回答那要負法律責任"},{"start":6473.08,"end":6473.2,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6496.445,"end":6508.212,"text":"我們再來一次各位董事長、總經理知道這件事情也就是說如何有效宣傳公股行庫企業形象這個張瑩發起的請舉手都知道有這件事情所以也配合辦理是不是配合辦理的舉手"},{"start":6520.418,"end":6521.599,"text":"總預算額度的部分在八大行庫配合之下總預算的額度是多少?"},{"start":6541.109,"end":6550.211,"text":"這個是不是的確就是銀行的部分是每一家一千萬然後金控是兩千萬金控的部分拜託確認一下是兩千萬左右的舉手然後不知道金額的舉手好那你們不知道金額你們是授權什麼部門去辦理來我們拜託那個那個趙峰金控董事長來先來講一下代表講一下"},{"start":6566.768,"end":6586.935,"text":"謝謝李委員事情確實是知道當然只要回答我的問題就好了當然多少金額我不知道你不知道然後就授權授權他們要去做要配合那你是配合張瑩就張瑩發起之後不是配合張瑩她也沒有跟我說張瑩但是就是有這樣的事情要做宣傳因為我們做清安貸款是"},{"start":6587.895,"end":6600.803,"text":"那我現在要請問,因為你們拖延的關係把我的時間用掉了,那我要請問一下,你可以在今天的會後把你們派何辦理的金額出來給本席嗎?"},{"start":6601.65,"end":6627.328,"text":"我的了解是還沒有但是對我說要做這件事情但是沒有金額好像連發包都沒有沒有我現在沒有跟你講發包你這是拖播啊廣告拖不要閃不要閃這是壞習慣好不好你剛剛已經閃了我現在講說不要閃你今天在會後告訴我你內部的查證沒關係今天不要今天也可以我們就說禮拜三下班前可以嗎"},{"start":6628.249,"end":6642.975,"text":"禮拜三下班前查了之後把你們各個銀行你們要辦理配合廣告脫波的金額各個銀行麻煩回覆給我好不好我只就我的兆豐了好不好你只就兆豐我說各個銀行可以齁部長可以嗎那如果他們還不知道的話我建議就是換啦"},{"start":6649.898,"end":6671.527,"text":"這個董事長總經理就換掉就是了好第二個問題各位請回謝謝感恩不盡總算在主席財事之後有把人民放在眼裡沒有拒絕行使拒絕履行你憲法上面備詢的義務感激不盡我第二個問題要請教就是說特別預算呢變成了財政紀律的破口啊部長"},{"start":6672.347,"end":6678.694,"text":"我們看到這個在特別預算的時候你說這個特別預算並沒有是財政機率破口我舉個例給部長部長你記得我當時在詢問你的時候本來這個問題其實應該問主計長但主計長就甩鍋他甩到你身上你記不記得我們在302的時候他甩鍋甩你身上那我只好問你"},{"start":6693.311,"end":6696.493,"text":"財政特別預算的部分在這7年多編了13個特別預算,裡面就算是還稅餘名的部分都還要編給台電500億,這個是事實吧?對不對?部長?是的是的,條例有三條。那我們再看一下為什麼我說"},{"start":6712.145,"end":6712.465,"text":"財政部莊部長翠雲"},{"start":6732.705,"end":6761.191,"text":"特別預算它也要分年編列的對沒有錯那不是我問的我說如果你年度預算的東西你把它塞到特別預算裡面就不對嘛對不對是不是還是你不知道我是覺得要看那個沒有我現在不用看我現在就講說年度預算是年度預算嘛特別預算是特別預算嘛總預算是總預算特別預算是特別預算總預算是每一年都編列的對你把它塞到特別預算裡面來是對還是不對"},{"start":6762.551,"end":6779.372,"text":"我問了第三次了特別預算有特別預算的條例沒錯我就在講了是第四次詢問把總預算的內項目塞到特別預算是可以還是不行這個我想還是要看那個預算法然後主計總處那些我現在講說按照預算法的規定"},{"start":6781.274,"end":6783.176,"text":"現在我們的行政官員也好或者是我們這個相關的這個公股銀行也好顯然"},{"start":6800.892,"end":6813.059,"text":"是沒把人民沒把憲法沒把法律當回事所以我現在問的就是說如果你可以編你應該編在總預算裡面我們講年度預算嘛你硬要把它編到特別預算那特別預算就成了巧門嘛那特別預算成了巧門之後它當然是財政紀律的破口啊你算這個是不能夠光純的去你違法就是違法嘛"},{"start":6828.027,"end":6853.046,"text":"另外我一個跟部長報告的一點就是說在一般的民間有訊息像我剛剛問的那個問題的訊息你們剛剛是拒絕回答在主席財事之前你們是拒絕回答的一般的民間企業當有訊息出來的時候你要釐清沒這回事情你是在你的公告的訊息上面說沒這回事情但你不敢為什麼你不敢就是因為有"},{"start":6853.706,"end":6858.249,"text":"委員我們有說明有說明是沒有說明啊這個問題需要浪費我們這麼多的時間嗎好第三個呢其實我很想問的是財政部又被冒名了嘛對不對現在詐騙猖狂我們看到國家這個打詐打詐國家隊是完全沒有任何的功能他的唯一的功能在哪裡唯一的功能在編預算而已除了編預算之外他沒有任何功能"},{"start":6881.342,"end":6883.765,"text":"所以稅務的詐騙變成常態我想請問部長您除了在您的臉書上面講說你要看到這個有gov.tw的它才是真的其他是假的我要請問就是說為什麼"},{"start":6899.198,"end":6901.32,"text":"財政部需要收集民間資料"},{"start":6918.254,"end":6918.935,"text":"關於各自外流的情況"},{"start":6944.514,"end":6950.876,"text":"你像看公司行號的統一編號你現在Google打上去的時候你只要打公司行號或者打統編它全部的資料都出來你的檢疫密碼設定是這樣子你其實是等同要把全部其他私人企業的訊息讓全部都公開以這樣的一個情況來講你設定的部分你對於各支你有任何的尊重嗎這就是我講說今天的我們的行政單位"},{"start":6973.784,"end":6996.721,"text":"所有的東西完全不在乎老百姓的一個權益你自己設計的東西為了你的行政效率方便但問題你完全不在乎老百姓的權益你另外的講說登記密碼的提示統一編號統一編號你現在公開的訊息上面就可以找到了那我請教你等到裡面的資料被篡改的時候你要誰負責啊"},{"start":6997.842,"end":7008.288,"text":"民間要負責啊,他實在有夠衰欸他什麼事情都沒做,然後就為了你們行政官員的方便然後民間就要承受所有的一個責任,這樣對嗎?部長,這樣對嗎?跟委員報告,您剛剛提的這個營業人的資料,他是公開資料"},{"start":7014.451,"end":7017.094,"text":"但是你的密碼你在設定密碼的時候你要的這些的資料是非常非常容易的你現在根本不要講說多厲害的駭客"},{"start":7031.232,"end":7045.229,"text":"一般的人他就可以進去啊我知道委員您提的就是說落密碼的部分我們已經強化了一定要求他加強這個密碼而且對原來給他的密碼已經更改了我最後一句話你還要注意另外一件事情因為有很多公司行號是透過會計師對不對會計師他很可能是他習慣的一個密碼"},{"start":7050.836,"end":7069.123,"text":"所以所有人通通都是一樣對現在已經不可以了所以他只要查出來是哪個會計師他所有的資料一樣出去啊不是這樣子嗎現在不可以了原來是這樣子因為原來計帳室也好會計師也好他為了減變就用了這個弱密碼現在都要去做變更了而且定期要變更這個部分我們會加強的好再拜託謝謝委員提示"},{"start":7074.264,"end":7081.409,"text":"跟委員會報告,待會兒鍾嘉斌委員巡拿完以後,我們就休息10分鐘,現在請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":7091.972,"end":7109.066,"text":"主席．在場的委員先進．列席的政府機關事務長．官員．會長．工作夥伴．媒體記者女士先生有請財政部莊部長．那另外請關務署的彭署長．國庫署的蕭署長．以及財政資訊中心的張主任．聽到問題的時候就自動上來施惠詢"},{"start":7112.472,"end":7130.611,"text":"委員好部長好部長考你一個國文什麼叫做備詢備詢是不是我問你答叫做備詢對啊那你回答詢問你是用嘴巴講還是用字體語言告訴我還是打手語告訴我當然是用嘴巴講嘴巴講在本委員會在國會的備詢要對著麥克風講才算數對不對"},{"start":7134.471,"end":7145.426,"text":"是不是?我沒有記錄嘛那請問一下,如果問你yes or no的問題,要你蹲下表示是,要你站著表示不是,你會照做嗎?"},{"start":7146.386,"end":7164.978,"text":"我想我會對著跟委員用明確的表示就是說對著麥克風講對不對今天剛剛表現的叫大家舉手那叫表決今天列席的官員不是本委員的委員沒有表決的權利你們是來備詢的不是來舉手表決的有問題直接對著麥克風講會不會"},{"start":7167.244,"end":7173.726,"text":"對著麥克風講這裡不是小學堂這裡是國會殿堂如果有委員要把自己當作幼兒園的教師那是他的事情請你不要表現出像幼兒園的小朋友一樣好不好"},{"start":7197.298,"end":7197.418,"text":"入境免稅額"},{"start":7215.127,"end":7220.775,"text":"18年到現在 34年了 物價調了多少當然 物價成長1.7倍 要不要調 會調調1.7倍可以嗎 1.7倍啊 我們現在數字還在算 給大家一個承諾"},{"start":7232.509,"end":7233.77,"text":"社會怎麼疑慮?會不會衝擊我們台灣年輕人的就業?"},{"start":7251.833,"end":7269.347,"text":"會不會我想這個來台就業這個勞動部應該會回去思考吧好我來告訴你除了怕金正強公出來但有任務啊中國學生到外國的就學就業有特殊任務有沒有聽過我告訴你啦往下看中國學生到我國外啊間諜活動看到媒體報導美國"},{"start":7271.46,"end":7281.332,"text":"他計畫加入陸軍,獲得快速的共鳴身份,然後進入這些情報敏感單位法國中國學生因為重置間諜活動被遣返德國因為中國學生參與間諜活動,他認為有風險你有沒有看過這個報告?"},{"start":7286.038,"end":7313.566,"text":"在媒體上有看到往下看那麼陸生來台中生來台就學的領域很特別在2019年之前他們來台灣會念什麼?商業跟管理還有藝術還有工程你知道嗎?今年陸生最夢的領域是什麼?軟體應用及管理開發管理行政電子電機為什麼?有沒有覺得他們的領域的變化?我來告訴你什麼原因來"},{"start":7315.253,"end":7332.639,"text":"以美國的軍事機密為例要竊取資訊不需要很核心只要一個一等兵他接觸到網路系統就可以接觸機密就可以洩密還有一個中國華裔的美國的海軍現役士兵因為母親鼓勵他洩密可以跟中國求關這個新聞對你有什麼啟發"},{"start":7337.39,"end":7362.628,"text":"我覺得這個來幹嘛就幹嘛不要做一些不應該做的事沒有錯不能從事與入境目的不合的行為往下看不只如此現在的財經詐騙層層不從啊網站都設在外國啊有收到什麼臺北國家稅務局的還稱呼你叫做尊敬的客戶請問主任你認為這些網站是來自哪裡因為我們的資料主要都是來自香港香港財資中心揪出了205個偽造"},{"start":7366.357,"end":7374.243,"text":"公股行庫有沒有完善建立確實內部集合?內積內控有沒有?有那不是公股行庫的上海銀行1.4萬個1萬4千個各自外洩是什麼原因?沒有建立也沒有確實執行找這客戶資料外洩是不是這樣?有沒有懲處?"},{"start":7396.773,"end":7402.439,"text":"公股行庫有沒有統整出這些資訊安全的敏感職務加強資安及背景審查以降資安教育有沒有做"},{"start":7416.245,"end":7442.028,"text":"有沒有定位什麼叫敏感職務?有沒有?有沒有定位什麼叫敏感職務?沒有啊!如果沒有定位敏感職務,你如何加強資安的訓練跟教育呢?所以呢,請注意,你們如果要重視資安,要對銀行端"},{"start":7443.052,"end":7446.419,"text":"敏感植物先定位,哪些植物有可能接觸到機密,可以嗎?"},{"start":7448.216,"end":7474.013,"text":"我們可以了解參考一下這個叫做加強關鍵基礎保護設施的法案這定出來的對不對在今年的5月30號通過的關鍵基礎設施的法律修正案其中包括政交法銀行法期貨交易法都有明白說什麼核心設備及核心資訊之通的系統對不對如果竊取破壞違反怎樣要罰一年以上七年以下有什麼重不重"},{"start":7474.983,"end":7501.297,"text":"重對不對但是如果你們沒有把這些敏感之物定位清楚你根本不曉得核心的設備在哪裡什麼人會接觸到是不是這樣子對核心的設備核心的資訊系統一定要先把它羅列出來那我們才知道是關鍵基礎設施的重要性知道了齁好那最後呢我來問你齁除了應起設備之外呢人員的審查更重要你們呢有沒有對這些接觸這些關鍵核心知名設備"},{"start":7502.638,"end":7517.007,"text":"還有這些業務的人有沒有進行審查這個部分因為有一些有保密責任的話一定要要求他們要簽署保密的協定要簽署保密協定我先問一個保密協定這是行政院的願函他說111年盤點來自大陸地區的廠牌的資訊設備還有委外營運的公共場所的契約評估結果要說明什麼要說明辦理事項轉資格公共機關我們銀行都有沒有收到"},{"start":7532.097,"end":7557.883,"text":"這個部分我們全部完成清查跟盤點有沒有要求廠商在執行你們的執行案的時候成員不得有中級入籍的人士有沒有?有,有要求有沒有說不可以提供中國製的自通設備?也有要求有沒有做到?有啊,都有做到設備你們有做到嗎?都做你們外包的廠商的成員的身份有做控管了嗎?有控管,對,我們會對資安人員也會做真性調查好,那我來告訴你"},{"start":7559.013,"end":7560.615,"text":"我們沒有外籍人士啊"},{"start":7574.548,"end":7597.378,"text":"公股行庫沒有人有台灣以外的國籍你確定嗎這個問題很敏感喔中華民國國籍你們的工作人員當中除了高階的主管我們有要求有雙重國籍的要求之外你能確定公股行庫的人沒有台灣以外的國籍嗎當然我們沒有對全體同仁去做過清查你們有什麼你們延攬外籍優秀的人才有沒有"},{"start":7598.408,"end":7609.189,"text":"這個部分有過對 你們延南他是外籍人才的時候有沒有去了解他是哪個國籍的背景他是來自香港的你確定他有沒有中國的背景"},{"start":7610.611,"end":7635.92,"text":"這個部分齁對香港的不是中國人喔來自香港香港國際人士很多啊從香港的銀行被你們延攬來到台灣公股行庫的有沒有目前沒有啊你們目前公股行庫完全沒有延攬從香港來的外籍人士完全沒有完全沒有確定喔要不要我一個一個請教我不會叫你們蹲或跪或者舉手叫你們一個一個對在麥克風講有沒有"},{"start":7636.789,"end":7641.95,"text":"今天我們在談資安今天我們在談金融的資安今天我們在談公股行庫的金融資安首先第一步你們要把機敏的職務列出來可以嗎?"},{"start":7665.892,"end":7671.27,"text":"我們去查一下雞米食物去分類好 第二個從事這些職務的委員要不要加強訓練"},{"start":7673.119,"end":7700.459,"text":"當然應該要訓練要教育訓練對不對最後哪些人擔任這個職務你們公股行庫跟你所屬的證券公司或保險公司或者執行的廠商團隊當中在有非本國籍或是他同時擁有其他國籍的人士以及資通訊的產品都要加強資安以及背景審查可以做到嗎我想這部分我們會後再來做研議什麼時候可以結束後調查完畢後給本委員會一個說明"},{"start":7701.61,"end":7721.292,"text":"一個月內請你們加上調查尤其第二項你們要先盤點定位哪些是機敏的植物第二個這些機敏的都不見得是核心不見得只有後台的鑰匙它可能只是一個基層的能源就像一個一等兵一樣這些植物只要被列為機敏的你們要進行在職能源的在職教育訓練"},{"start":7722.389,"end":7723.349,"text":"請對著麥克風講,不要舉手或蹲下"},{"start":7749.193,"end":7762.621,"text":"我跟蔡委員報告,主席有決定權。站在備詢台,他用舉手或不舉手也是一種表達。"},{"start":7778.452,"end":7778.472,"text":"展開會議"},{"start":8418.587,"end":8422.111,"text":"好 我們繼續開始開會 接著請高嘉瑜委員謝謝主席 請財政部部長還有八家公股行庫的董事長好 各位請出列"},{"start":8438.072,"end":8461.087,"text":"委員好部長好首先有第一個問題就是之前我們也有問過公股行庫在存庫死亡後辦理定存的轉存情形那有四家公股行庫是跟民營一樣會依約自動轉期但是有四家是不轉期改活存其中包括台銀、土銀、合庫跟華銀那我們認為說這四家的這個存庫的權益明顯受到影響"},{"start":8464.889,"end":8486.445,"text":"所以我們要求金管會能夠競速的處理也要求銀行公會還有財政部能夠先來做那就這個部分到底我們在等什麼為什麼其他的行庫都可以站在存戶的立場一約自動轉期唯獨這四家行庫它不能轉期而改活期呢這部分能不能跟其他行庫一樣來做呢"},{"start":8488.004,"end":8489.266,"text":"可不可以回覆一下臺銀、土銀、和庫跟華銀?"},{"start":8497.742,"end":8519.478,"text":"我想這沒有違反任何法律的問題啦對 但是對於存戶的權益受到影響明顯在其他的民營的行庫還有我們其他四家公國行庫都會站在存戶的立場協助他們但是只有這四家行庫雖然沒有違反法令但是問題是這四家的這個存戶明顯在權益上是矮人一截的"},{"start":8519.878,"end":8531.113,"text":"那如果讓這些存戶知道是不是會去轉存到其他的公股行庫或民營行庫那對這四家存戶的利益或權益其實也受到影響所以我們認為應該要站在存戶的立場上能夠一視同仁的處理這個對於銀行來講有什麼困難嗎"},{"start":8537.501,"end":8550.208,"text":"我想這個部分我們可以來研議因為事實上過去在高利率的時候也發生過這個定存但是現在全台灣就只剩你們四家臺銀、土銀、核酷跟華銀這個我說明一下可以嗎因為這個過去也有這個如果"},{"start":8558.786,"end":8585.701,"text":"他變成繼續做電存後來如果中途做什麼處理的時候就有利息打折甚至不支付利息的問題所以這要全盤考量不只是為銀行是站在存戶他的立場那至少可以讓存戶有一個選擇的權利或者是怎麼樣我不知道但是目前現在全戶應該是以全戶的利益為優先的考量那當然我贊成但是這裡面涉及到因為前提是死亡後"},{"start":8586.661,"end":8594.047,"text":"他如何選擇這是一個問題所以這個部分我們希望說能夠有一致性的規範來處理那所以這個最快到底什麼時候因為我們已經問了一個多月了目前你們有討論過內部上對這個有沒有一致的共識呢我想這一個我們會來討論所以大概還要多久的時間因為這裡涉及到整體法尊種種甚至裡面系統給我們一個月好嗎"},{"start":8612.381,"end":8617.106,"text":"等下再一個月這已經夠多月了阿全台灣就只有你們四家捏"},{"start":8618.186,"end":8621.789,"text":"另外同樣是公股行庫但是生育津貼的福利差一大截我們接到這個員工的投訴同樣都是公股行庫但是呢華南銀行他生一胎可以補助10萬第二胎是20萬"},{"start":8646.689,"end":8667.106,"text":"異營是產價最多有58天產檢價、賠產檢價都有8天但是一胎是10萬、第二胎是15萬那依序下來最糟糕的就是台營跟土營喔台營跟土營不僅沒有補助而且只有留職停薪、復職率百分百相較其他的行庫來講真的是落差非常的大"},{"start":8667.546,"end":8681.442,"text":"那台企銀是第一胎只有五千第二胎一萬那為什麼其他的行庫可以補助到最高十萬甚至八萬有的變成三萬是張銀那越來越差為什麼有這樣子的落差呢這個部長可以跟我們說明一下"},{"start":8682.623,"end":8702.246,"text":"先跟委員報告對於飯工股的部分那是公司的治理那他們怎麼樣去訂定這個相關的補助我想這是公司內部的一個規則那至於國營行庫部分臺營跟土營這個部分因為我們也知道委員很關心這件事情我們也請因為涉及到那個薪資的問題"},{"start":8703.627,"end":8707.07,"text":"韓巡行政院人事行政總署可不可以也像這樣犯公股一樣給予我們生育的一個補助答覆的是第一個是單一興奉所以在興奉裡面不能有這一個項目但是可以從職工福利金裡面去辦理"},{"start":8723.843,"end":8731.226,"text":"也就是職工福利金可以因為職工福利金是從他們的營業的一個獲益裡面去抽去提撥一個所以可以在這裡面辦理那這裡面的職工福利由他們委員會來做這個決定我想這個部分財政部基本上是支持我們各公股行庫對於員工的生育的部分都給予補助因為這件事情已經討論很久了那之前也有曾經"},{"start":8747.711,"end":8767.299,"text":"承諾說要提供一台10萬元的育兒津貼但後來一直都卡在財政部還有人事行政總署那既然現在已經有可以從職工福利金等等去做移撥請問最快什麼時候可以讓員工有這樣子的好消息我們當然希望盡快那當然要看財銀跟土銀在職工福利金裡面去做討論"},{"start":8768.86,"end":8773.282,"text":"我想這個要讓台銀跟劉銀在台銀是不是董事長 呂董事長因為這個我想我也贊成有這一些但是誠如剛剛部長所說我們是單一信奉心知明定不含在裡面但是如果用職工福利金我們也內部討論過那這個公會會表達說這是大家的錢所以這裡面目前還沒有答案如果有答案我們一定很樂意"},{"start":8795.271,"end":8812.213,"text":"政府鼓勵生育、少子化的問題等等我們公股銀行真的要帶頭作棋結果你看我們公股銀行的福利是完全沒有完全沒有,國銀行庫更是真的是只有柳子亭、新聯課補助都沒有台積銀也只有五千、彰銀只有三萬"},{"start":8813.154,"end":8834.241,"text":"那矮人一截說實話對於我們同樣是公股銀行的員工來講那個落差相對剝奪感真的很大所以這些理由跟藉口我想對於這些銀行的員工來講我覺得也聽不下去所以我覺得若有誠意競速的協助財政部跟人事行政總處應該要站在鼓勵生育的立場能夠盡量的能夠撥補這樣子的經費那也討論非常久之前也曾經承諾過員工10萬塊一胎"},{"start":8842.403,"end":8862.76,"text":"只有到現在還說還在研議討論那我覺得這樣子的一個誠意真的是大打折扣耶方式上是我們絕對是支持對鼓勵員工來生育養育子女但是呢因為涉及到這個信奉以及職工福利金的運用那我想這個職工福利金運用他們有一個委員會可以去做討論"},{"start":8864.121,"end":8864.702,"text":"這部分是不是也一個月的時間"},{"start":8881.084,"end":8881.544,"text":"員工福利委員會加速討論"},{"start":8902.95,"end":8926.73,"text":"那另外今天討論這個資安的議題我們也同樣要來問就是說公股行庫目前定期所謂的資安查核到底有多少家在做都有在做總共查核多少家查核這個是第一個公股行庫這個部分的資安的查核這個是金管會的是中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":8928.74,"end":8932.308,"text":"你們現在就是要強化財稅機關跟公股行庫的資安防護嘛那你們這些財稅機關公股行庫總共有幾家"},{"start":8938.857,"end":8939.478,"text":"財政部所屬的機關"},{"start":8968.237,"end":8968.777,"text":"資安平台的漏洞"},{"start":8985.265,"end":9010.322,"text":"包括財資中心自己的財政部發票平台就爆出資安漏洞七成的企業沿用預設的密碼這個是被白茂駭客在今年五月所揭露出來的資安缺失那如果你說五年做三次或是五年做一次為什麼自己財資中心這麼大的漏洞自己都完全不知道那所謂的資安積合到底在積合什麼有沒有積合到自己"},{"start":9010.742,"end":9011.482,"text":"委員您提的這個弱密碼這個事情確實是我們這個部分已經做了"},{"start":9037.699,"end":9040.24,"text":"所以這個也是大家請說我們的資安集合有沒有落實然後包括我們的報稅資料也曾經外洩等等的狀況"},{"start":9056.164,"end":9065.769,"text":"所以大家對於財政部所謂的資安疑慮如何能夠進一步讓人民安心是有很多的質疑就這個部分今天的報告其實說明的還不夠清楚我們也希望財政部就這些問題能夠具體的能夠再跟我們做相關的檢討"},{"start":9073.874,"end":9095.567,"text":"所以到目前為止呢我們所看到除了告訴我們會定期的集合但是其他都是照本宣科那明顯的資安的問題沒有改善那我們也認為說財政部應該要跟相關的單位就現在大家對資安的要求非常的高的情況之下如何能夠確實的去做相關的這個資安漏洞的防堵是非常的重要"},{"start":9096.647,"end":9125.587,"text":"數發部來講數發部的量能也非常的有限對於我們所謂的政府機關的資安集合到底是誰要來做統籌誰要來負責還是最後大家各踢皮球這個是我們所擔心的那最後關於這個新清安的貸款因為很多人在質疑現在雖然傳出說三個月已經撥款了這個將近800多億然後有1.2萬首個族多少人在排隊但是被外界質疑的就是所謂的新清安"},{"start":9126.527,"end":9127.427,"text":"這部分部長是不是也可以說明一下"},{"start":9155.536,"end":9156.277,"text":"所以這個漏洞就是我剛剛所講的嗎?"},{"start":9178.894,"end":9205.626,"text":"年滿18歲就可以沒有限制最高年齡的上限第二個你所謂的首購只要名下沒有自有住宅就是所謂的首購不管他曾經買過或者是剛賣出或是等等只要名下現在沒有都算所以這個就變成說對於那些真正的首購族真正的年輕人來講有沒有更優惠的方案還是說這個所謂的新清安美其名是青年安心成家但其實這個青年其實就是一個"},{"start":9210.063,"end":9229.328,"text":"民意上的青年但是他是要一個沒有房子而且沒有其他的房貸才可以啊然後雖然我們像青安但是我覺得如果他需要自有的房屋來居住的話其實政府給予相關的一些協助跟補助我覺得是有必要讓這個沒有房子的人能夠買到他想要買的房子"},{"start":9229.708,"end":9245.471,"text":"對因為最近有一個這個副總統候選人他也是在教年輕人買房的訣竅就是買一間賣一間買一間賣一間房價一直在漲利用這樣的方式就可以去不斷的貸款不斷的買房那如果你這個心清安再加上這個副總統候選人這樣子的言論"},{"start":9246.132,"end":9263.146,"text":"是不是就是讓投機客成為一個投資的工具他不斷的鑽這個漏洞去買房去貸款然後去賣房子去炒高房價這個就是我們所擔心的啊類似這樣子的狀況會不會不斷的重複生態成為另外炒房投機客的工具如何來防堵"},{"start":9263.706,"end":9280.622,"text":"不要變成這些有心人利用炒房的工具而讓真正想要買房子沒有錢的年輕人他貸不到款買不到房子這個是我們最擔心質疑的你在這個政策裡面的這些漏洞大家都看到了但是你怎麼去防堵怎麼樣去防止投機客的炒房"},{"start":9281.503,"end":9285.926,"text":"委員,房屋是一個高價的資產,買進賣出買進賣出其實並不是這麼容易,然後還有稅的問題,其實短期交易在我們來說,房屋2.0的課稅是重稅的,所以不是這麼容易買進賣出買進賣出,另外我們新簽案貸款的人他必須沒有身上其他的貸款啊"},{"start":9301.235,"end":9302.175,"text":"各位請回謝謝部長代委員改書面質詢接著請林楚英委員"},{"start":9335.001,"end":9343.008,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請張翠雲莊部長還有我們財政資訊中心的張文希張主任兩位請"},{"start":9347.998,"end":9348.118,"text":"財政部委員"},{"start":9365.836,"end":9374.28,"text":"找了一些內部相關的這些原則財政部的資安的防護措施的話那麼成立資安見檢跟數位鑑定團隊會每年來定期來辦理這個相關的財稅的弱點掃描跟滲透測試還有資安見證那麼我們知道如果說財政部是希望逐年來做一個審定的話"},{"start":9391.127,"end":9406.965,"text":"但是如果根據財資中心的資通安全集合的原則的話是另外一個部分等於財政部希望是每年定期但是在財政部的這個部分有關於資安的部分就是委由財資中心來處理對嗎部長"},{"start":9409.215,"end":9435.885,"text":"是是但是我們基本上還是有一些審定的原則包括比如說三年內如果你都沒有被進行過資通安全的集合的那這是第一個可能容易被抽到那第二個就是兩年內如果你有發生一些資安案件的那你可能要再進行再來就是沒有完成資安責任等級的辦理事項的就會需要所以原則上會變成是三年才集合一次嗎"},{"start":9438.546,"end":9462.603,"text":"張主任報委員主要是因為那個資安健檢的人力跟時程就是沒有辦法每年每個機關都完成健檢所以我們就按照這個列選的原則去挑選最重要的先做比如說近兩年有發生資安事件就會優先那如果這幾年都表現良好那我們可能採取書面的審查"},{"start":9463.163,"end":9490.411,"text":"所以在人力的部分現在整體來做資通安全集合的人力一共是多少然後他們的量能比如說以一年來說的話大概能夠完成多少的這麼多的比如說包括以公股行庫啦或者是我們的這些各個區的這個所謂稅務單位啦就以你們現有的人力跟你一年能夠處理的量能大概是多少"},{"start":9491.591,"end":9509.76,"text":"這跟委員報告,因為我們現有正式的資安人員是4位只有4位對,那其他的都是兼職的職員大概是21位左右所以這樣加起來就是25位然後你們一年的量能可以查多少的單位或是多少的部門"},{"start":9510.991,"end":9540.391,"text":"若點掃描這部分剛才大概是22個機關若點掃描那見證是在集合前我們前一個禮拜會做見證的作業那通常一次見證大概要花一個禮拜那因為他們這些兼職人員平常還有其他的行政業務所以目前他們安排的這個量能是很滿的所以我們除了財政部自己的見證團隊去見證之外另外我們在各機關都會都有委外的"},{"start":9547.477,"end":9559.549,"text":"財政部當然是希望每年要來做一個見證但是顯然的以這個現有的人力比如說就是專職4位然後兼職25位那麼要做到每年是不可能"},{"start":9559.989,"end":9583.456,"text":"最多就是說這三年內被抽一次然後或是你兩年內發生事情所以我這樣講吧一年以一年內我們本身財資中心能夠健檢或者是弱點掃描幾個單位最資安集合的部分健檢大概就是三到五個三到五個然後"},{"start":9584.625,"end":9600.627,"text":"若點掃描若點掃描幾乎就是都會全部做因為若點掃描有範圍那大概是總共是22個機關機關購包括這個公股的台圖書研究公司等等好"},{"start":9601.568,"end":9627.048,"text":"本席會這樣問是因為我們這個資安定期集合到底有沒有確實呢我特別製作了這個表那也是跟財經中心你們所做的資料就是說現在其實只有關務署跟土銀有達到定期集合的標準為什麼我抓這近五年是因為我們從108年之後我們開始專注於資安集合的這個部分然後除了"},{"start":9628.289,"end":9638.246,"text":"這個關務署是A等級之外然後土營是有機會在我們所定的標準3年以內有機會被做到一次之外其實包括像你看"},{"start":9639.332,"end":9656.806,"text":"高雄國稅局這五年來都沒有然後你自己財資中心等一下這個委員會問就是是不是財資中心集合別人那誰集合你們呢再來包括我們看比如說臺銀人壽啊臺銀的綜合證券啊臺銀的這個保金等等"},{"start":9657.907,"end":9674.099,"text":"那等於是說其實我們希望達到但是卻沒有辦法實質的做可能連三年都沒辦法五年內都會有人沒有被集合到那像這個部分的時候是因為人力不足還是認為說有其他的方式來做填補就夠了"},{"start":9675.513,"end":9691.742,"text":"我想我們目前填補的方式就是由委外的集合的部分那就是各機關他們比如說他會選那個英國標準協會或其他的這個集合機關來進行委外的集合來補充內部集合的不足"},{"start":9692.422,"end":9710.883,"text":"一方面是由外部的機關來集合的角度會比較不一樣那如果同一年會有兩組以上的集合的人員進駐的時候那對機關來講其實壓力也比較大那像高雄國稅局這個案例是比較特殊的因為第一方面他之前沒有"},{"start":9712.204,"end":9722.312,"text":"所以最近會補上嗎?因為過去都沒有這五年如果發生什麼事情的時候滲透都已成啊五年要部件滲透都會完成我列出這個表我只是來提醒就是說確實你們從一年已經退到變三年"},{"start":9739.005,"end":9766.345,"text":"三年之後又有一些單位是完全這五年來都沒有來進行所謂資安定期的集合問題很可能就在這樣的過程當中出現資安的危機那麼另外當然就是部長如果財資中心是負責來集合大家但是他們卻在五年內沒有被集合到那這個部分到底是歸誰呢本席去了解的時候發現是屬於速發部要來進行所謂更高層級的資安的合併那麼"},{"start":9767.606,"end":9788.057,"text":"如果是這樣的話財政部跟速發部跟資安中心在彼此財資中心它的集合的部分有跟上速發部的腳步嗎那麼速發部到底有沒有針對這些二級或是獨立機關的集合是兩年來一次那以本席所了解是這五年都沒有"},{"start":9788.877,"end":9804.076,"text":"那這個部分財資中心前一陣子還有這個所謂電子發票服務平台登錄系統就出現了一些危機所以這到底是沒有接合到還是沒有配合到因為這很有可能問題就出在這裡啊"},{"start":9805.257,"end":9829.698,"text":"報告委員就是財政中心的集合外部的集合是行政院會委書發部來集合我們目前從最近5年內有3次已經接受過3次集合那另外他除了你最近有接受過3次對107年111年還有109年都有接受過行政院的集合那結果呢"},{"start":9831.379,"end":9856.609,"text":"結果都還不錯,都有符合標準那電子發票那個部分因為它主要跟使用者的習慣有關係所以在這個集合的部分它沒有辦法透過系統直接判讀那這部分我們在未來的集合技術裡面會增加對這個使用者這些習慣的考核那來補充彌補"},{"start":9859.17,"end":9882.868,"text":"那除了外部集合我們自己內部也我們自己中興自己的同仁也會自己集然後每年會做自己集兩次那我們自己有資安科那會集合其他的像國稅跟地稅發票的一些組織一年至少集兩次那同時我們每年會請第三方的集合公司那像中興是以英國標準協會來幫我們在做整體的檢核好"},{"start":9887.992,"end":9916.115,"text":"因為集合的部分就是財資中心要來負責那麼你也說到了會有人力的部分的問題但是就像本席整理出來這個表我想要更明確的了解為什麼會有些單位他們完全沒有在五年內做到這個集合我希望你們給我一份報告重點其實我很希望的是資訊安全、資通安全這些部分是現在其實最要面臨的問題那麼不要變成是好像變成是作文比賽"},{"start":9916.775,"end":9917.396,"text":"接著請羅明財委員"},{"start":9941.787,"end":9942.968,"text":"很快就是12月了喔12月25號是什麼日子"},{"start":9960.27,"end":9976.823,"text":"自行限紀念日也是大家的聖誕節聖誕節是開心的時刻我覺得去年的時候前任的部長蘇部長曾經在這裡答應我說在去年的Christmas我特別還說這個祭祝聖誕節這個是歡樂的季節我特別還質詢了"},{"start":9983.448,"end":10009.063,"text":"蘇部長答應我兩件事一個就是要廢除印花稅另外一個就是要廢除娛樂稅相關至少要修正請問一年過得很快要過去了不曉得新任的莊部長對於前任的蘇部長的承諾有沒有買單有沒有繼續來執行廢除不合時宜的印花稅"},{"start":10010.64,"end":10031.931,"text":"跟委員報告硬花稅的部分在上個會期吧應該我們委員是召委的時候也召開過那硬花稅因為是也是地方稅而且金額也不小涉及到地方的財政所以各地方政府都反對要廢除硬花稅這個是這一部分那另外就是娛樂稅的部分那娛樂稅當然因為年代也久遠"},{"start":10033.191,"end":10048.316,"text":"根據社會經濟環境的一些轉變也許有一些項目可以值得討論或者稅率也值得討論所以在這個部分上一次也要求也指示或做成決議要財政部再邀請地方政府來做討論財政部也在今年的8月邀請了各地方政府來做討論那22縣市裡面除了台東縣以外其他各縣市都反對廢除娛樂稅但是項目也好還有稅率的最高限"},{"start":10060.619,"end":10072.708,"text":"以及相關的內容部分那地方政府都認為也可以做一些調整我想這個部分我們上次也做了一個說明是所以部長如果地方大家都贊成的話部長就會從善如流囉"},{"start":10074.528,"end":10080.51,"text":"贊成哪個?贊成這兩個稅都把它廢掉?沒有,他們都沒有贊成啊。對,邏輯上,如果地方都贊成的話,那是不是你就會來執行?地方如果要贊成的話,可能他們希望的是財政自主。他們也許,譬如說娛樂稅來說,金額其實不高,大概一年就是16億到17億之間,但是他們希望這是地方稅是財政自主。"},{"start":10099.497,"end":10100.098,"text":"是,如果他們要贊成的時候呢"},{"start":10119.299,"end":10145.352,"text":"你這樣在邏輯上應該要找到一個平衡點就以你的聰明才智你的智慧應該要對所有的事情要迎熱而解您的意思是說如果他們都贊成的話我的意思是說你不想推的都推給地方說大家不贊成"},{"start":10146.926,"end":10151.569,"text":"現在所有全國地方針對統籌分配稅款都是希望這個要增加多一點那部長是什麼時候來配合地方來全部營造他們的意識來推動呢"},{"start":10178.701,"end":10187.984,"text":"統籌分配稅款這個部分涉及到財化法的修正因為目前都是按照財化法的規定還有計算的公式來算出來的地方有人反對說統籌分配稅款要減少嗎"},{"start":10193.085,"end":10207.761,"text":"那當然他們都希望要增加嘛他們不會希望把這個部分減少嘛希望能夠增加那就對了 依你的邏輯當地方都說贊成要增加的時候那你就趕快增加那這個涉及到財化法的修正那財化法的修正涉及到要有共識"},{"start":10208.722,"end":10231.984,"text":"您也知道這個財務法修正涉及到每個地方政府都就自己有利的條件提出來那目前來說財政部也已經有擬定了六個一個原則那六個原則也就根據這個六個原則我們也分別在含詢地方政府的意見當中我們會會診這個地方政府的意見來找到共識點部長那一天會診十幾年了我們那邊開會不是第一天對"},{"start":10233.866,"end":10252.123,"text":"對,所以,如果是這樣的話,那換任何人都可以來當部長啦您知道這個共識是很難取得,沒有共識的話要修法也推動上會有它的障礙所以你要展現你的魄力跟魅力啊你怎麼樣來說服大家,你怎麼樣來站出來做對的事啊"},{"start":10252.503,"end":10252.523,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":10278.598,"end":10304.218,"text":"一年多前就聖誕節快樂的他就很愉快的答應本席的廢除印花稅的部分那你什麼時候做你不會在那邊講又說那明年聖誕節再說吧我不會這樣說啦那是印花稅的部分印花稅的部分還是跟委員報告因為是地方的財政還是要地方政府大家要有共識全世界還有哪個地方收印花稅"},{"start":10304.998,"end":10308.519,"text":"美國有收印花稅嗎?美國有沒有收印花稅?日本有沒有收"},{"start":10333.059,"end":10345.157,"text":"這個是不合時宜的嘛,你想,裡面的基深成本又高,所有的部長,包括前書部長,院長,他也說贊成要廢除,可是就是沒完成啊。"},{"start":10346.104,"end":10374.631,"text":"可是這樣是地方政府非常重要的財源這個可以說是都沒有往前進相當的可惜是對的就要堅持對不對是要努力去做好好不好另外一個請教一下國有財產署最近有很多地的問題那聽說要標大概總金額是100多億要提供種樹來減碳那不曉得內容是怎麼樣"},{"start":10378.666,"end":10401.925,"text":"我們目前大概先篩選出大概100公頃來試辦這100公頃的土地大概農作生產都有問題所以是用種樹的方式那給民間大概有20年以上那甚至未來能夠取得碳錢那合作的問題那請問這個100多公頃國家稅收可以增加多少"},{"start":10402.585,"end":10430.446,"text":"因為我們以前農業用地都是用這個所謂的農作的生產價格那我們這一次是用一些用公告公告地價的方式來收這不多啦因為這個可以去種樹的地方都比較偏遠那地價也都比較不高所以他的目的並不在於說收取多少國家的稅收而是能夠透過這樣一個機制來引進這個大家多種樹"},{"start":10431.947,"end":10455.024,"text":"那你要100公頃大概一年可以收多少?幾十萬而已,不到百萬那請問國有地一共有幾公頃?國有地,國產署現在監管的有22萬公頃假設20萬公頃都租出去,國庫的稅收可以增加多少?22萬全部都租出去,因為每個地方的地價不一樣沒關係,你剛剛舉最爛的就是十幾萬"},{"start":10456.219,"end":10472.026,"text":"跟委員報告不能這樣子算啦因為我22萬公頃裡面有一些是建築用地有一些是可以建築用地有一些是要做生態保育的大概也有一些像濕地啊這些等等是不可以做其他的活化處分的"},{"start":10472.746,"end":10495.737,"text":"那請你盤點一下,過去國有財產署的地非常多,閒置在那邊,殊為可惜,應該做最好的利用。是的,每一塊土地我們都會尋找最好的利用方式。好,謝謝。那另外部長再請教一下,對於我們所有的銀行的經營,年底又到了,你覺得在公股銀行裡面做比較好的是哪一家?"},{"start":10497.252,"end":10519.781,"text":"每一家都在他們的一個專業領域裡面都努力做最爛的是哪一家最爛的沒有最爛的沒有最爛的所以你都滿意他們的當然要努力可以做得更好當然應該就要做得更好我們看到公營的所有的試戰以及獲利的情況可以說是節節敗退"},{"start":10521.334,"end":10521.474,"text":"請合庫蘇總經理"},{"start":10562.372,"end":10586.107,"text":"蘇總以你的專業來說那你們現在對於這個美債的部分會不會加持我們會會手上還有多少的美債我們要回查一下目前因為它每個月在變動大概美債我不確定你會加持美債的原因是什麼"},{"start":10589.569,"end":10612.519,"text":"貴嘉是因為主要是我們財務部分析大概美國可能會降息對 這個很簡單啊那我們看到國內很多授權公司啊手上持有的美債大概超過20幾兆啊為什麼別人都在做公股行庫裡面卻對這個沒有任何的積極的動作"},{"start":10615.609,"end":10637.629,"text":"我記得裡面做的比較好大概是兆豐吧兆豐大概前幾年他們買的非常多大概賺了好幾百億然後裡面我們現場的一些董事長私底下跟我講跟操盤的人講他們都不理他"},{"start":10639.093,"end":10657.478,"text":"因為公股的行庫的管理誰也不怕誰因為他們心裡只有一個管理的就是部長所以講這個就是說裡面公司的治理以及專業的經營事實上是需要加強的"},{"start":10659.468,"end":10686.13,"text":"所以你看我們這個公股的模範生大概是趙鋒吧希望有空趙鋒應該要開開課幫這些董總多多來溝通灌輸一些新的理念好不好 部長可以這麼做嗎好 委員的 謝謝委員的指教好 謝謝好 謝謝 各位請回接著請曾明忠委員曾明忠 曾明忠委員不在我們請張綺路委員"},{"start":10696.357,"end":10696.577,"text":"財政部莊部長"},{"start":10713.837,"end":10737.187,"text":"那這個資安這個問題其實說實話我們黨團在去年的時候我們就已經開過這個記者會當時也就是希望說甚至應該這個包括你看現在很多的資訊從對岸的問題來這個攻擊我們當時也希望說金融也應該要有個所謂這個金融的汗光沿襲這個金融的兵推"},{"start":10738.087,"end":10744.906,"text":"那其實當時苔穎跟昭峰就被整個誠心攻擊過那現在是這樣講其實這件事根本不是"},{"start":10746.431,"end":10776.151,"text":"就是今天的新聞這個根本就是一個我們講的就是灰犀牛他本來就存在那裡而且始終都在我先請教部長一個問題雖然但今天有點可惜訴發部沒來我們訴發部我們唐部長一直說他要當這個資安的教練我不知道這個訴發部當教練這件事對我們財政部有沒有什麼或者公股行庫等等他有沒有把這教練這個做好啊現在到底有沒有告訴大家怎麼做啊"},{"start":10777.732,"end":10793.362,"text":"謝謝委員對這個資安的重視 資安也是國安那抒發不因為是我們國家的一個數位發展的一個專業機構那當然如果唐部長要做教練的話當然我們應該都要配合這個政策去做都應該要的我覺得"},{"start":10796.467,"end":10817.076,"text":"請教一下,從他們開始書發部成立之後到今天,你看我們今天早午有安排這樣的專訪那到底在這個過程中,到底書發部協力了多少?有沒有什麼行政的指導啊?還是做了什麼幫協助我們那麼多董做在場,對不對?到底做了多少啦?"},{"start":10818.556,"end":10833.664,"text":"我們知道數位部他其實做了相當多的一些規範跟一些指引要我們來去做遵守那至於說後續的一些怎麼樣去落實就是委員最重視的是怎麼樣去落實以及他怎麼去指導這個機關的意見相關規範都有定有關政府機關的部分 蘇巴部這邊他有"},{"start":10842.748,"end":10861.166,"text":"是同安全研究院來提供的技術的諮詢跟指導,包括教育訓練,金融的部分有經過你們覺得夠不夠用,或者是說他們這些給你們的指引或什麼,真的有幫這件事做好嗎?你們覺得說這樣子"},{"start":10864.969,"end":10886.014,"text":"至少他們在人力跟資源上比我們充裕,我們也從這邊得到很多訊息交換的部分,對我們是有用的我坦白講是覺得今天也沒辦法,抱歉部長你們是後端的,但是前端他這個訓練的結果我真的還是看不太到,因為才會有今天這個問題,我們就直接往下"},{"start":10888.054,"end":10903.778,"text":"這個坦白說我們為什麼一直有這個問題其實上次去年5月,不今年5月這個電子發票整個平台這個地方的這個漏洞而且我們也看得到它這個問題是什麼就是說你看在1789間這個公發公司上市櫃的這些有7%的這個企業它就是沿用這個預設的這個密碼"},{"start":10914.422,"end":10924.115,"text":"這也就是個問題就是說甚至你看這個包括中華郵政臺鐵這些也甚至自己還出現這種問題這個問題就是這樣講我們再往下我先講就是部長您看就是說我們雖然財政部"},{"start":10931.277,"end":10947.054,"text":"立議也良善我們希望說你要強制更換密碼啟動雙認證模式可是現在是這個問題是這樣就是說我們財政部我們現在主動希望他們要幹嘛幹嘛可是現在的問題是他們自己願不願意就不會 如果他們自己要是"},{"start":10951.638,"end":10963.329,"text":"反正也不以為意那才會出這個漏洞我們現在雖然在政策指導上是說你要這樣這樣子甚至你要演練甚至我們還說我們每兩年要最好進行一次紅隊演練等等"},{"start":10964.85,"end":10982.667,"text":"可是配合端那裡這個就有點像剛才前面一個層次事務發布到底有沒有教會大家那大家有沒有做到那再來就是你們現在正在落實的這個過程中那到底我們的公股行庫或者是誰他是自己也沒有辦法去落實那這怎麼辦部長"},{"start":10984.803,"end":11009.845,"text":"對於有關您剛剛提到那個我們的落密碼這個部分就是預設密碼大家都還在用預設密碼這個是不可以就像我們銀行拿到金融卡以後他給你一個密碼你一定要去換所以我們這次是要求這個使用者我給你預設密碼你強制要去變更如果你不變更我就會不讓你進來這個然後也定期要去變更這一定要做的不做的話他就不能進來這個系統就是落實的一個做法"},{"start":11011.447,"end":11026.58,"text":"對,謝謝部長其實就是希望說因為一開始我們是等於沒這個防賴機制所以大概就是說反正你給我譽證密碼我就用了反正我也不想動了那但是現在就是說可能現在我們應該是說在這個防賴機制上應該是先等於說我大概只給你這個時間"},{"start":11027.261,"end":11030.463,"text":"主要是因為紅隊演練的時間比較長那這樣大概會超過五個月的時間因為它模擬供給那另外還有就是"},{"start":11056.056,"end":11070.516,"text":"預算經費也比較高啦那這個如果每年做對對這個防守方向我們是防守方壓力其實可能在人力上的調配目前有一些困難"},{"start":11071.357,"end":11071.477,"text":"主席"},{"start":11092.751,"end":11119.465,"text":"要去設想一下,更前瞻一點,因為不然你兩年一次才做一次,這個頻率是真的太低了,甚至我覺得沒有辦法及時因應。那另外的話,這個演練的這個對象最後一句話,就是說當然我們現在是希望說是國營事業,上市貴公司,那這些是不是也應該要把它放進去,就是再擴大一點,因為我們現在主要都是在擺在我們自己納管的嘛,那你這個有沒有可能?"},{"start":11122.146,"end":11144.713,"text":"技術上可能跟財政部納管的系統範圍有關那上市櫃會員目前不在我們系統納管這個跟金管會那邊也談一談嘛就是大家協力一下嘛比如說我覺得說坦白講就是說我們常常看這個問題部會設了很多回到我最終剛才講的部會設了很多但是大家好像就是各踢了皮球"},{"start":11147.534,"end":11166.482,"text":"蘇發布說我當教練反正你們自己做不做是你家的事那我們現在承接我們也有我們的這個限制我們管我們的公股等等但是它每次牽連到的又可能跟直接的很多的上市櫃又有直接關係所以我覺得我們還是這個協力也要做好啦反正行政是一體的嘛應該有一個彼此那另外的話我覺得說"},{"start":11167.262,"end":11167.382,"text":"陳昭華委員"},{"start":11195.862,"end":11197.443,"text":"謝謝主席 請部長好 莊部長來委員好 部長好部長 我們國有地 國產署所管理的土地我們是不是每年都會編訴訟 訴訟費用"},{"start":11218.294,"end":11237.756,"text":"在我們的經費裡面當然會有編一些訴訟費用訴訟費用編得很多嗎?多,大概有一定的金額吧一定金額嘛,可是國有地被不當的使用我們必須透過訴訟去解決但是我們可以濫訴嗎?"},{"start":11240.134,"end":11242.155,"text":"在上個禮拜本席剛好有一個案子就是去跟監察院監委去討論討論有關那個間界的"},{"start":11263.638,"end":11288.701,"text":"那是一個私有地跟公有地的地界的爭議那就是竹北地震那時候的一個處理有爭議那爭議就是說土地的負障成果圖不拿出來"},{"start":11289.653,"end":11316.733,"text":"那沒有拿出來導致法院就判了錯判錯判就是私有地這邊的地主的土地就被移了5公尺那後來監察院監委這邊是地政的專業他接受本席協助這個說明的理由所以他願意再重新調查那我覺得監察院有熟悉地政"},{"start":11317.373,"end":11317.393,"text":"法規確認"},{"start":11347.125,"end":11348.487,"text":"以實際見解還是最優先"},{"start":11355.684,"end":11374.397,"text":"今天就是說因為國參署我們是用參考圖去告這個當事人那這個土地是在新店的一個有相含的一個道路那這個道路根據水保局103年的資料還有根據新店90年"},{"start":11380.429,"end":11400.636,"text":"的土地的這個證明都是證明這個湘寒是在國有地國產署管理的土地上面但是因為參考圖的這個界移動了所以讓那個湘寒地下的湘寒就跑到民地去了"},{"start":11401.124,"end":11402.244,"text":"本席認為新電地震的爭議可能是他們在數位化數值化的時候數值化的時候讓這個地界移動了"},{"start":11428.495,"end":11456.383,"text":"所以我不認為是國產署的事不過現在因為是國產署去提告那一審是敗訴然後又要上訴本席還是建議國產署要撤銷這個上訴那這個部分也不希望就是說還要走到監察院去讓國產署的這個訴訟這個濫訴成立本席也是建議這樣不知道我們財政部這邊看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":11457.264,"end":11467.399,"text":"財政委員報告,土地戒指的鑑定,它的權責機關在地政機關所以就國產署也好,就市人也好,都是一個地主的身份,戒指鑑定的權責都在地政事務所"},{"start":11471.413,"end":11496.517,"text":"問題就在這裡求員兼裁判就是說今天建界也是他作證也是他都是他所以他要怎麼亂講或者是說對當事人不利我們國參署不能跟著他們這樣子因為他也是公務員地震事故的同仁也是公務員但是我剛剛已經跟你講了竹北的那個案例竹北的那個案例就是明顯竹北地震有"},{"start":11497.657,"end":11520.125,"text":"您這個個案這個心電是不是可以署長也做一個說明可以嗎好那署長可不可以撤銷這個上述跟委員報告因為大概國產署都會陸陸續續收到一些民眾的懲請那因為目前有些在辦那個土地重測的時候這裡沒有土地重測不管是重測或是"},{"start":11520.965,"end":11536.916,"text":"不同的時代因為所有的設備儀器測量的結果可能會有一些差異如果今天不是因為他故意來佔用的部分我想我們會以輔導他取得合法化的使用為前提但不會以訴訟為標的"},{"start":11539.818,"end":11558.471,"text":"剛剛這個個案的部分因為是他是判決說地政事務所的間接結果是有所謂的錯誤不應該講錯誤啦就前後兩次的差異那當然這個個案的部分我們是比較形象說由內政部國土策略中心來做一次的重測"},{"start":11559.372,"end":11559.572,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11578.166,"end":11581.849,"text":"我跟委員報告很多的這些人都說他沒有佔用國有土地包括委員有一些農地工廠這些等等那也都是透過實際的一個見解的結果才可以作為一個處分點"},{"start":11604.125,"end":11605.265,"text":"本席剛剛已經說了像這個案子就是"},{"start":11630.592,"end":11644.304,"text":"陳清仁已經提出幾十次的實際上的土地間接成果圖所以我們國產署的判斷應該不以訴訟為主要的解決方法"},{"start":11646.277,"end":11675.644,"text":"瞭解嗎?那你跟我扯別的,所以我才會說,你們不要爛數嘛!政府預算編列不要用在爛數上面啊!因為所有的訴訟的費用也是政府的預算,事實上一定有它的需要啦!好啦,那如果真的有必要本席也可以代向監察院陳情。我們國產署的那個解決土地紛爭,沒有以實際見解為主要的依據,而是以訴訟為依據,我覺得真的是不妥啦!"},{"start":11676.683,"end":11677.804,"text":"本次會議做如下的決定"},{"start":11706.623,"end":11725.722,"text":"委員費煌泰所提書面質詢已列入記錄．刊登公報．並請財政部以書面答覆今日會議議程已進行完畢．堂友不在場委員補提書面質詢．亦必列入記錄．刊登公報．並請議事人員協助處理好謝謝各位散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}