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11:55:45","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":854,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時45分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。其實這件事情我們在上一次質詢的時候已經交換過意見了，因為我一直在跟農業部要我們2022年跟日本進口雞蛋的資料，中央畜產會是農業部所管轄的機關，我從2月一直要，要到上一次的時候，你們到4月說合約有保密義務，沒有辦法提供，但我們進一步深入去看，發現有保密義務的是乙方，而不是中央畜產會，所以所謂在合約負保密義務的這件事情的這個說法，當我們把合約調出來看了以後，發現根本是胡說八道，負保密義務的是廠商，而不是我們的中央畜產會。上一次詢答的時候，你們的同仁說，依照政府資訊公開法，這個合約需要廠商的同意才能夠公開，我上次已經跟部長表達過了，對這一種法規的解釋，我是感覺到匪夷所思啦！我為什麼感覺到匪夷所思？政府資訊公開法是這樣解釋的嗎？如果政府資訊公開法是按照農業部這樣解釋的話，那問題大條，我為什麼說問題大條？交通部、文化部、經濟部，我只要去調合約，統統都要交出來啊！為什麼要交出來？事情很簡單，這是用我們納稅人的錢去採購的事項，對合約行政部門可以用廠商不答應為由拒絕提供，然後依據是政府資訊公開法，這樣的法規解釋，上次部長回去有沒有再重新思考，是所有的行政單位都這樣解釋，因此提供給我這些合約的部會統統都違法，還是只有農業部做這樣的解釋？請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我想跟委員先說明一下，就是當時我所得到的訊息就是我們政府單位的資料的提供與否可能有幾個要件，包括您剛才講的政府資訊公開法，當初我們的認定是也需要兩造雙方，因為不是農業部定的，後來我也真正地開了專案會議去檢討這樣的規定，我覺得就是說當它屬於公益的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：你什麼時候開專案會議？"],["陳部長駿季：應該是在委員那時候質詢的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：那個專案會議的會議紀錄可不可以會後給我？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在討論的時候並不是一個非常正式的會議，就是我找了相關的單位來看看說……"],["黃委員國昌：不行啊！你決定這麼重大的事項，誰表達了這樣的法律見解，誰要負責任啊！因為關係重大耶！如果你們農業部上次的法律見解是正確的，那我就跟部長報告，事情大條啦！交通部、文化部、經濟部全部都違法，因為農業部是唯一一個部會用政府資訊公開法當作理由拒絕提供合約的，茲事體大，農業部到底哪一位官員做這樣的法律主張？這個有政治責任的問題嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：不過我想在法條上的解釋，基本上很多人可以有不同的見解，但是到最後我決定的……"],["黃委員國昌：很多人可以有不同的見解，但我們的政府應該只有一種立場啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，但是相對的，以農業部來講，我們平常不會隨時去問其他的部會你是怎麼做的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？現在我們的政府是各個部會一人一把號、各吹各的調？同一部法律，不同的部會有不同的解釋，情況是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想應該不會是這樣子，但是以農業……"],["黃委員國昌：如果不是這樣的話是怎麼樣？是你們解釋錯還是他們違法？"],["陳部長駿季：我想以農業部來講，我最後的決定就是它有它的但書，但書如果是屬於公益的時候可以把它公開，所以我就用了這個公益的方式……"],["黃委員國昌：好，可以把它公開。"],["陳部長駿季：所以結果就是可以公開。"],["黃委員國昌：好，可以把它公開，那合約什麼時候要交出來？"],["陳部長駿季：合約已經……那時候好像張啓楷委員有要求的時候，我們已經給了，所以合約的部分我們已經提供了。"],["黃委員國昌：問的人是我，你給張啓楷委員，那我呢？"],["陳部長駿季：很抱歉，我想……"],["黃委員國昌：因為我不是本委員會的，所以我跟你要，你不給我？"],["陳部長駿季：我非常抱歉，這件事情我想我們……會後我會立即提供，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們繼續往下看，就不要拖時間了啦！我為什麼要追這件事？2023年，當時超思這家公司被社會大眾質疑，50萬資本額的公司設在一個民宅，結果接到7億元超級的大單，社會譁然，超思是什麼樣的公司啊？非常神秘，設在一個民宅內，2022年9月設立，2023年就接到了這麼大的單子，那個時候農業部信誓旦旦地說超思不是因為要開始專案進口才成立，它2022年9月就成立了，前面還有實績，我從去年就開始一路追查它有的實績是什麼，我為什麼會開始追2022年從日本專案進口？因為我從去年就開始懷疑2022年從日本進口雞蛋的就是超思，超思就是為了從日本進口雞蛋才成立的，但我手上沒有拿到證據以前我不會隨便亂說話，結果，來吧！2022年9月成立，2022年11月曾經從日本進口雞蛋到臺灣，這個是你們農業部去年公開的資訊，在左手邊，但左手邊沒有告訴他們2022年11月進口雞蛋是哪裡的單，你們上面文過飾非寫說曾經幫日本的大企業在處理雞蛋的事情，我們再往下追，結果後來發現2022年中央畜產會進口了3,000萬顆雞蛋，裡面有2,500萬顆是交給誰做的？正是交給超思做的，超思不就是為了接你們農業部中央畜產會的大單而成立的嗎？我有沒有說錯？請教部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說，一家公司的資本額跟它有沒有能力買蛋，我想這是兩件事情，這是第一點。"],["黃委員國昌：對，但我現在質疑的是什麼？農業部去年是怎麼告訴臺灣社會大眾的？我們再來看一下，超思不是因為要專案進口才成立的，但是你們去年話講一半，它不是為了巴西才成立，它是為了什麼成立？它是為了日本進口雞蛋而成立，那個日本進口雞蛋是誰的單啊？不就是我們中央畜產會嗎？農業部在面對社會大眾的質疑，可以這樣欺騙民眾嗎？這是我的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們並沒有欺騙大眾……"],["黃委員國昌：所以只是沒有告訴大家？啊！它不是為了巴西進口。事實上在去年的時候，為了中央畜產會從日本進口的大單，3,000萬顆、2,500萬顆是給超思做的，我有說錯嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：委員，我可不可以回答？"],["黃委員國昌：請。"],["陳部長駿季：我想雞蛋本身不是一個現貨市場，它必須要熟悉整個雞蛋的產業，關於超思，如果你去問臺灣所有的蛋農，沒有一個人不認識它，所以表示它過往在雞蛋本身的進口有它的一個能力。"],["黃委員國昌：我請教一下，負責人秦語喬女士在2022年9月接你們中央畜產會的大單以前，上一次處理雞蛋買賣的事宜是什麼時候？"],["陳部長駿季：我所瞭解……"],["黃委員國昌：你現在的說法是他很有名、關係很好，可以弄得到蛋嘛！現在這是農業部的說法，我請教的是在2022年9月他成立超思公司接中央畜產會的單以前，他前一次處理雞蛋是什麼時候的事情？"],["陳部長駿季：我們不瞭解，因為最主要就是……"],["黃委員國昌：那就很奇怪囉！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，委員……"],["黃委員國昌：如果你們不瞭解的話，你們怎麼會掌握這家公司很有辦法，有辦法幫中央畜產會處理2,500萬顆日本雞蛋進口不會有問題？廠商是怎麼選的？"],["陳部長駿季：我可不可以回答？"],["黃委員國昌：可以。"],["陳部長駿季：112年是專案進口，所以農業部有直接參與……"],["黃委員國昌：112年是2023年嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對，111年就是112年之前，因為畜產會負有整個產銷調度的部分，所以我們是年度給予補助計畫，我們不會去過問整個採購的過程，所以我們在……"],["黃委員國昌：中央畜產會是……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們是它提計畫來……"],["黃委員國昌：是公設財團法人還是私的財團法人？"],["陳部長駿季：它是公設的財團法人，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我跟委員說明……"],["黃委員國昌：公設的財團法人，主管機關不管，是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是主管機關沒有錯，可是我們是根據年度的需求給它相關的計畫。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，你可能要再回去看一下，公設的財團法人跟主管機關彼此之間的關係。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我瞭解，但是我們不會去……至少對我來講，還有對我們畜牧司來講，不會去瞭解它每一筆的細節，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了啦！中央畜產會，你們現在是用自有資金在幫它解釋，但你回去看，中央畜產會從開始到現在，它的錢不是納稅人支持的嗎？要不然為什麼是公設財團法人？你們用一個公設財團法人當白手套就可以迴避監督、迴避所有的規管嗎？這是我的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：它一開始成立是由幾個單位合資成立，但是它每一年還是有自己的收入，它有自己的收入……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，時間的問題啦！我只問一個最關鍵的問題，是不是可以麻煩部長請問中央畜產會在2022年的時候是怎麼挑選廠商的？這是第一個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個問題，把合約交出來有沒有問題？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。謝謝部長。部長，你剛才回答說黃委員所提問的資料已經給張啓楷委員，因為張啓楷委員要的資料不是這個，所以你要去把它釐清楚，謝謝。","接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員。鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員。","請徐富癸委員，請做發言，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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資訊公開法這個合約需要廠商的同意才能夠公開我上次已經跟部長表達過對這種法規的解釋我是感覺到匪夷所思啦我為什麼感覺到匪夷所思政府資訊公開法是這樣解釋的嗎"},{"start":107.847,"end":125.398,"text":"那如果政府資訊公開法是按照農業部這樣解釋的話那問題大條我為什麼說問題大條交通部、文化部、經濟部我只要去調合約通通都要交出來啊為什麼要交出來事情很簡單啊這是我們納稅人的錢啊"},{"start":129.076,"end":129.096,"text":"請部長"},{"start":156.124,"end":182.372,"text":"我想跟委員先說明一下就是當時我所得到的一個訊息就是說我們政府單位的資料的提供與否可能有幾個要件包括您剛才講的政府資訊公開法那當初我們的認定是也需要兩照雙方也不是農業部訂的後來我也真正的開了專案會議去檢討這樣的一個規定那我覺得就是說當它屬於公益的時候你什麼時候開專案會議"},{"start":184.273,"end":212.61,"text":"我應該是在委員那時候質詢的時候那麼專案會議的會議記錄可不可以廢後給我我們在討論的時候並不是一個非常正式的一個會議就是我找了相關的單位來看案件不行啊你決定這麼重大的事項誰表達了這樣的法律見解誰要負責任啊因為關係重大欸如果你們農業部上次的法律見解是正確的那我就跟部長報告啊事情大條啦交通部、文化部、經濟部全部都違法"},{"start":213.49,"end":233.044,"text":"因為農業部是唯一一個部會用政府資訊公開法當作理由拒絕提供合約的知識體大農業部到底哪一位官員做這樣的法律主張這個有政治責任的問題嗎?不過我想在法條的這樣的解釋基本上"},{"start":234.09,"end":239.655,"text":"所以現在我們的政府是各個部會一人一把號各吹各的調同一部法律不同的部會有不同的解釋情況是這樣嗎?"},{"start":257.33,"end":274.56,"text":"我想應該不會是這樣子但是...那如果不是這樣的話是怎麼樣?是你們解釋錯還是他們違法?我想以農業部來講我最後的決定就是他有他的但書但書如果是屬於公益的時候可以把它公開所以我就用了這個公益的方式可以把它公開那合約什麼時候要交出來?"},{"start":278.863,"end":287.43,"text":"我們已經合約已經那時候好像張旗愷委員有要求的時候我們已經給了所以合約的部分問的人是我啊你給張旗愷委員那我呢"},{"start":290.151,"end":317.519,"text":"我很抱歉我非常抱歉這件事情我想我會立即提供因為好我們繼續往下看就不要拖時間了啦我為什麼要吹這件事2023年當時超市這家公司啊被社會大眾質疑50萬的資本額的公司啊設在一個民宅結果接到7億元啊超級的大單啊"},{"start":318.78,"end":343.59,"text":"社會華蘭阿哇超市是什麼樣的公司阿非常神秘阿設在一個民宅內2022年9月設立2023年就接到了這麼大的單子那個時候農業部信誓旦旦的說齁超市不是因為要開始專案進口才成立他2022年9月就成立了前面還有時機阿"},{"start":345.168,"end":365.295,"text":"我從去年就開始一路追查他有的時機是什麼我為什麼會開始追2022年從日本專案進口因為我從去年就開始懷疑2022年從日本進口雞蛋的就是超市超市就是為了日本進口雞蛋才成立的但我手上沒有拿到證據以前我不會隨便亂說話結果來吧2022年9月成立2022年11月"},{"start":373.191,"end":394.905,"text":"曾經從日本進口雞蛋到台灣這個是你們農業部去年公開的資訊在左手邊嘛但左手邊沒有告訴他們2022年11月進口雞蛋是哪裡的單你們上面文過是非寫說曾經幫日本的大企業在處理雞蛋的事情我們再往下追結果後來發現2022年中央續產會進口了3000萬顆雞蛋"},{"start":401.469,"end":428.473,"text":"裡面有2500萬顆是交給誰做的?正式交給超市做的啊!超市不就是為了接你們農業部中央續產會的大單而成立的嗎?我有沒有說錯?請教部長我跟委員說齁一家公司的資本額跟他有沒有能力買單我想這是兩件事情對!但我現在質疑的是什麼?農業部去年怎麼告訴台灣社會大眾的?我們再來看一下"},{"start":429.83,"end":431.711,"text":"我講我們並沒有欺騙大眾齁所以只是沒有告訴大家"},{"start":460.282,"end":469.376,"text":"他不是為了巴西進口啊事實上在去年的時候為了中央續產會從日本進口的大單3000萬顆、2500萬顆是給超市做的"},{"start":473.427,"end":500.57,"text":"我有說錯嗎?委員我可不可以回答?請請請我想超私我想雞蛋本身他不是一個現貨市場他必須要熟悉整個雞蛋的產業那超私如果說你去問臺灣的所有的蛋農沒有一個人不認識他所以表示說他過往其實在雞蛋本身的這個進口是有他的一個能力負責人秦宇喬女士在2022年9月接你們接你們"},{"start":501.471,"end":514.146,"text":"中央續產會的大單以前上一次在處理雞蛋買賣的事宜是什麼時候我所瞭解在你現在的說法是他很有名關係很好可以弄得到蛋嘛"},{"start":515.154,"end":533.68,"text":"現在這個是農業部的說法那我請教的是在2022年9月他成立了超市公司接中央續產會的單以前他前一次在處理雞蛋是什麼時候的事情我們不夠不了解因為最主要就是欸那就很奇怪囉你們如果不了解的話"},{"start":534.58,"end":550.988,"text":"你們怎麼會掌握說這家公司很有辦法有辦法幫中央續產會去處理2500萬顆日本雞蛋進口不會有問題?廠商是怎麼選擇?我可不可以回答?可以這樣子齁就是112年那是專門進口所以農業部有直接的參與112年是2023年嘛"},{"start":553.069,"end":575.983,"text":"好那111年就是112之前我們對續產會因為續產會負有整個的一個產銷調度的所以我們是年度給予補助計畫我們不會去過問他整個的一個採購的一個過程所以我們在中央續產會是對我們是他提計畫來是公社財團法人還是私的財團法人他是"},{"start":577.313,"end":595.059,"text":"公設的財團法人主管機關不管是怎麼樣是我們是主管機關沒有錯可是我們是根據年度的需求給他相關的計畫部長你可能要再回去看一下公設的財團法人跟主管機關彼此之間的關係"},{"start":595.979,"end":620.045,"text":"我想我了解但是我們不會去至少對我來講還有對我們的畜牧師來講不會去了解他們每一筆的細節我這樣說好了啦中央續產會你們現在是用自由資金在幫他解釋嘛但你回去看中央續產會從開始到現在從開始到現在他的錢不是納稅人支持的嗎要不然為什麼是公社財團發的"},{"start":621.425,"end":640.278,"text":"你們用一個公社財團法人當擺手套就可以迴避監督迴避所有的規管嗎?這是我的問題那他一開始成立是由幾個單位去合資成立的但是他每一年他還是有自己的收入時間的問題啦我只問一個最關鍵的問題是不是可以麻煩部長請問中央續產會2022年的時候是廠商他們是怎麼挑選的這第一個問題嘛是"},{"start":651.767,"end":654.255,"text":"這第一個問題第二個問題把合約交出來有沒有問題沒有問題好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}