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案。」現在介紹現場的委員以及列席官員。"},{"start":2194.281,"end":2203.765,"text":"委員吳逸勤委員（溫玉霞溫委員現在的列席官員名單是衛福部薛部長早法務部汪參事內政部護政司蘇檢任視察"},{"start":2224.54,"end":2250.355,"text":"司法院少年級家事廳徐法官行政院消費者保護會陳副處長行政院性別平等會鄧副處長謝謝蘇巧慧、蘇偉文也到現場了謝謝你們林楚茵、林委員也到現場了謝謝"},{"start":2255.852,"end":2269.919,"text":"現在請提案委員及黨團代表說明提案要址每位委員兩分鐘先以林楚茵林委員說明請"},{"start":2287.462,"end":2308.127,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁大家早安生育自由是聯合國人權公約所賦予的健康權之一也就是說自己有權來決定是否要生育繁衍後代不應受到法律的干預而這也是今天我們在這裡討論人工生殖法修法的價值那麼本人其實除了自己之前所提出的版本之外"},{"start":2308.607,"end":2324.269,"text":"也跟紅色漢委員有一個共同聯署的版本那麼有關於人工生殖法的修正希望在所有的人工生殖的技術底下加以保障同性配偶擁有人工生殖的權益這是本席一開始所提出來的修正案那麼同時在"},{"start":2325.61,"end":2347.913,"text":"紅身案的共同連署的版本底下我則主張也要增加單身女性享有生育自主權。司法院大法官解釋第748號解釋文施行在2019年就已經上路了。那麼已經明確的規範同性配偶締結婚姻的權益這是基於憲法平等權及婚姻自由權的保障。那麼如今施行"},{"start":2348.954,"end":2365.125,"text":"法律上路了三年多那麼同性配偶的升職權還在原地踏步那麼讓同性配偶必須忍受高成本、高風險到國外進行人工升職才能一元成家的夢想這是對同性配偶的歧視因此就是本席一開始在"},{"start":2365.885,"end":2389.871,"text":"而這個會期開始我就所提出的版本那麼當然另外有關於跟紅生漢委員在共同召開了公聽會之後我們也認為現在面臨少子化許多單身但是有能力的女性其實他們也可以擁有生育的自主權因此本席也提出了跟紅生漢共同連署的版本那麼希望在今天討論的時候能夠看到的不只是同性配偶"},{"start":2390.251,"end":2396.274,"text":"也可以讓單身的女性在求子之路不再備受艱辛而且感到遙遠。謝謝。有謝。謝謝。有請。現在先介紹剛剛出席的委員。謝一鳳謝委員、高嘉宇高委員。現在有請謝一鳳委員說明。"},{"start":2421.4,"end":2443.685,"text":"主席所有與會的委員我代表國民黨團以及本人的提案來做一個說明其實根據世界衛生組織的資料顯示育齡的女性發生不孕的比例是在8到12%但是我們國內生殖專家表示台灣不孕症的比例高達10到15%"},{"start":2446.285,"end":2463.874,"text":"當餘七對夫妻就有一對是不孕。多數不孕的家庭對於自然懷孕的機率過於高估而拖延了求助於生殖醫學的時間。所以根據我們衛福部的國建署110年對於人工生殖個案不孕的統計來講第一"},{"start":2466.215,"end":2494.369,"text":"就是因為女性的生理因素不孕症者合計為55.3%第二種是多種因素占32.2%第三就是男性不孕症占8.3%所以不管是試管嬰兒或者是人工受精都是透過醫學手段來幫助夫妻生育這都是那所以我們也希望說代理孕母是要圓滿不孕夫妻的天倫之樂的途徑之一那一直沒有受到重視但是"},{"start":2495.169,"end":2515.964,"text":"其實我們可以知道國際上其實有33個國家已經立法來規範並且沒有禁止代理育母的這個情況所以台灣目前的少子化的情況嚴重那我們近10年來的生育率都徘徊在1.1到1.2之間遠遠低於平均值那今年1月的時候尤其是已經跌破萬人"},{"start":2517.385,"end":2519.146,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":2542.25,"end":2564.022,"text":"本席從上任以來就十分關心人工生殖法的修法進度那這一次提出的版本裡面也確實注意到了在現行的人工生殖法裡面只有異性配偶能夠適用所以我的提案是希望能夠放寬實施人工生殖法的資格把同性配偶還有單身女性也能夠納入其中同時本席的版本"},{"start":2564.602,"end":2565.922,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":2588.749,"end":2607.541,"text":"另外就於這次草案放寬代理育母的議題本席也認為目前法律不明確的狀況下我國民眾如果要透過代理育母來生育只能到其他的國家尋求幫忙而且必須承受很大的風險如果國內想要放寬代理育母的限制也必須要有完善的法律規定謹慎的規劃管理還有監督的機制"},{"start":2610.503,"end":2613.764,"text":"而目前排審的草案沒有任何的制度設計如何去避免代孕者身體自主權遭剝削例如說代孕機構的管理規範如何設計治理結構是否平衡各方權利關係規範如何落實等等"},{"start":2629.651,"end":2630.231,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":2662.132,"end":2685.237,"text":"好,謝謝。下一位請吳信穎委員本席,我代表民眾黨在台上說明民眾黨黨團。台灣的總生殖率2020年起跌落低於1%以下,在全球排名倒數已經成為國安危機,若無法改善並嚴重影響台灣的未來人口以及產業結構,"},{"start":2687.298,"end":2708.108,"text":"一具歐洲人人權法院判決指出,歐洲人人權條約第8條私人生活的保障範圍內有包含想成為父母的意願。在台灣的司法院解釋第748號的實施法通過多年之後,去年也正式承認共同"},{"start":2709.375,"end":2711.376,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":2737.984,"end":2758.816,"text":"以無法反映現實社會的真實面貌也被傳統的道德理念限制現行法規以結婚與不孕作為人工生殖的前提限制了未婚婦女、不孕婦女願意付出以及同志家庭的生育可能不但與人權保障與身體自主的權利違背也無法阻止少子化"},{"start":2759.716,"end":2772.683,"text":"因此本席認為我們必須應對人工生殖法全面的討論檢視單身婦女及代理育母的問題所以提出以上人工生殖法條文修正草案。以上。現在介紹飛鴻泰委員"},{"start":2785.233,"end":2792.638,"text":"現在沒有其他的提案委員說明因列席部分部會眾多本次會議以衛福部、法務部、司法院以及行政院姓平會代表在台上說明"},{"start":2811.809,"end":2817.03,"text":"先有請衛福部薛部長說明現時間5分鐘其他3個機構各3分鐘謝謝主席、各位委員、女士先生今天是大院第10屆第8會期的社會福利及衛生環境委員會司法及法制委員會全體委員會會議召開的聯席會議"},{"start":2839.454,"end":2866.549,"text":"那審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。中國國民黨擬具的〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。委員吳秉叡等24人擬具的〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。委員林楚茵等19人擬具的〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具的〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":2867.289,"end":2887.266,"text":"委員洪聖翰等20人擬具的（人工生殖法部分條文修正草案（委員謝玉鳳等17人擬具的（人工生殖法部分條文修正草案等8案。本部呈要列舉來報告深感榮幸提出本部的意見,敬請各位委員不吝會議指教。"},{"start":2888.367,"end":2909.313,"text":"首先要說明一下衛福部對於這一個人工生殖法的一個修正秉持的態度是第一個我們是開放各種討論也就是說目前我們雖然還沒有提出這一個願板這一個"},{"start":2914.599,"end":2944.155,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":2944.675,"end":2969.171,"text":"議員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第11屆議員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆議員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆議員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆議員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第11屆議員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖"},{"start":2972.314,"end":2993.676,"text":"不孕夫妻因為缺乏子宮或子宮不能生育的那這一些要開放代理孕母這樣的議題我們都會提出一個版本的內容供各界來討論但是並不表示說衛福部會有這樣子的一個既定的立場說要開放哪一個或不開放哪一個"},{"start":2995.278,"end":3019.691,"text":"現在這一個版本還在程序當中我們會秉持著非常謹慎的態度去擬定這個內容因為這裡面涉及的倫理、法律、對於第三人、對於兒童的權益的保障、兒童法律地位的保障這些都非常的複雜而且需要謹慎的去面對"},{"start":3020.872,"end":3039.336,"text":"對於今天所提出的修正公法案,修正的內容也包括了代孕生殖的合法化以及放寬人工生殖法適用的對象。本部的意見綜合說明如下,請各位委員考量。第一個有關台灣民眾黨112年"},{"start":3042.697,"end":3063.342,"text":"十月十八日所提的這一個人工生殖法部分條文修正草案那其中第十一條草案的第十一條開放夫妻單身者及成立司法院釋制第七四八號解釋施行法第二條關係的雙方當事人以下簡稱同分者施行人工生殖"},{"start":3064.722,"end":3066.904,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":3087.904,"end":3109.929,"text":"法院的認可作業會有一億。法院的認可程序也極為耗時。還是需要再進一步的討論。草案第18條之一委託大運生殖者的資格要件除了符合第11條一般受試者資格要件之外,僅需要至少的一方具我國國籍。"},{"start":3110.529,"end":3128.07,"text":"那跟93代理姻母公民公事會議及101年代孕制度公民審議會議達成的有條件開放先語,這個後天缺乏子宮或因病無法懷孕等人的共識有所不同,這部分也是有意義的。"},{"start":3128.63,"end":3149.583,"text":"那有關民眾黨黨團、國民黨黨團、委員吳秉叡等以及委員謝玉鳳等擬具的這個部分條文修正草案的第18條之五那代孕者代孕以婦制為原則得對代孕者提供酬金恐導致代孕的商業化這個也是婦女團體所擔心的"},{"start":3152.344,"end":3174.518,"text":"會剝削弱勢婦女指工工具化或商品化及助長女性傳送接待的壓力等問題。就民眾黨黨團委員林楚茵等19人以及高嘉宇委員分別擬具的這個部分條文修正草案方寬成立擬同分者適用人工生殖"},{"start":3175.539,"end":3189.911,"text":"再二、三條人工生殖子女法律地位規定將修正為配偶一屆。如果依照司法院釋字第七四八號解釋施行法第二條規定同性的當事人"},{"start":3191.232,"end":3219.175,"text":"那是成立具有親密性及排他性之永久結合關係那該條及24條之一婚姻關係是否涵蓋女同婚者恐有疑義所以該法也沒有使用配偶值用語且依該法系準用民法上配偶值相關規定故以配偶稱之是否就能夠涵蓋成立上開私性法第二條關係的女同婚者恐會有疑義"},{"start":3220.015,"end":3246.109,"text":"所以將導致人工生殖子女及代孕生殖子女的法律地位未明。最後我結語是本部針對修法開放的人工生殖法的適用對象包括單身女性、同性配偶、代孕生殖議題沒有這一個預設的立場所以我們會持續關注各界對此議題的看法採開放的態度"},{"start":3248.29,"end":3264.195,"text":"將就國際作法、我國民情、社會期待及兒童最佳利益等綜合評估。未來還會持續邀請醫療、父權、兒權、倫理、法律等相關領域的專家審慎研議人工生殖法的修正草案。"},{"start":3265.375,"end":3285.09,"text":"並收集各界的看法尋求共識以及依法制作業程序將修正草案報行政院審查最後才會送大院來審查本部曾答應各委員的指教監督在此精緻謝誠並請各位委員繼續予以支持謝謝謝謝部長下一位請法務部代表說明"},{"start":3302.129,"end":3323.118,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好今天奉邀列席貴委員會聯席會議就審查吳秉瑞委員等24人台灣民眾黨黨團以及林楚茵委員等19人委員高嘉瑜等24人洪勝翰委員等20人以及國民黨黨團"},{"start":3324.933,"end":3338.079,"text":"還有謝一鳳委員等17人（台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的（人工生殖法部分條文修正草案等8案（僅代表法務部列席（自提出報告進行指教。"},{"start":3339.79,"end":3356.04,"text":"大運委員、黨團分別擬具的（人工生殖法部分條文修正草案（內容涉及待運生殖的施行（待運者的權益保障（還有（待運者及待運生殖用詞（實施人工生殖的要件（"},{"start":3357.233,"end":3377.364,"text":"代孕者醫療紀錄以及通報規範還有瘦數者與代孕者的親等限制居間代孕規範單身者人工生殖子女之法律地位代孕子女的法律地位違反實施代孕生殖相關的法則等內容僅就涉及本部主管法律的部分提供意見"},{"start":3379.576,"end":3405.087,"text":"現行的人工生殖法第五章人工生殖子女之地位有相關規定已經明列各種人工生殖子女視為婚生子女的情形因此他的地位以及得視為婚生子女的情形都是依照人工生殖法的相關規定如果我國允許代孕生殖合法這個是政策決定本部競表尊重"},{"start":3406.877,"end":3433.888,"text":"至於如果相關修正草案擬納入同性配偶的人工生殖草案條文中如果有涉及配偶雙方包含同性以及異性在關係程序中所進行的人工生殖本部建議用語為婚姻或司法院釋字第748號解釋施行法第二條關係以致明確"},{"start":3436.673,"end":3462.875,"text":"至於人工生殖法適用範圍這個部分是涉及到醫學倫理、兒童權益、童性平權、父女權益等面向這個都需要相關領域的專家綜合評估我國的民情、社會期待以及兒童的身心發展以尋求最大共識但是這個都涉及到人工生殖政策的方向決定市社主管機關與大院的職權與決定"},{"start":3464.383,"end":3482.362,"text":"本部尊重主管機關的政策決定以及大院審議的結果。未來如果確立立法政策方向,本部將協助提供法治意見。以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教。謝謝。謝謝。有請司法院代表說明。"},{"start":3489.284,"end":3502.196,"text":"主席各位委員好司法院代表參加立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境司法法制委員會第3次聯席會議審查委員吳秉瑞等24人台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":3507.381,"end":3523.811,"text":"委員林楚茵等19人擬具委員高嘉瑜等24人擬具委員洪生翰等20人擬具國民黨黨團擬具委員謝依鳳等17人擬具台灣民眾黨擬具人工生殖法部分條文修正草案等8案"},{"start":3526.962,"end":3549.978,"text":"本院的意見如下那關於這個第8案的台灣民眾黨版草案第11條第一款的部分規定人工生殖契約應該要經過法院的認可那立法的理由是要參考民法親屬篇的收養規定但是這個未成年子女的收養是涉及子女的身份關係的改變"},{"start":3551.339,"end":3569.851,"text":"與養父母是發生法律上的親子關係而終止與他本身父母的權利義務關係那為了要保障他的最佳利益所以需要法院認可才生效力但是人工生殖他不同的是他是利用人工生殖的醫學方法是沒有辦法自然生育的"},{"start":3570.311,"end":3572.712,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":3597.29,"end":3611.989,"text":"至於代孕子女他出生後的相關權益本來是應該要在人工生殖法會有明文的規範以保障代孕子女的最佳利益但是不是以在當事人之間他沒有相關的增值之前就有法院介入"},{"start":3612.91,"end":3627.691,"text":"而且這個法院他在人工生殖契約訂令的時候就介入審查但是這個時候代孕子女他還沒有出生而且甚至沒有受胎他在法律上是沒有權利能力的沒有辦法確保代孕子女出生之後的權益"},{"start":3630.593,"end":3648.706,"text":"那至於代孕子女他出生了之後呢就依照本法的規定是為婚生子女依照民法親屬篇的規定就會發生權利義務的行使跟負擔他當然就會受有未成年子女最佳利益的保障跟自然生殖的子女是完全沒有不同的"},{"start":3650.017,"end":3665.653,"text":"况且我們依照這個草案第一條他增訂為了要使國民可以自由經營他家庭生活的權利那是這個本法制定的宗旨那修正理由是說要納入保障家庭權作為本法的意旨"},{"start":3666.454,"end":3689.589,"text":"那但是如果說現在就瘦數者他施行人工生殖增加了要向法院申請認可的這個要件的時候那這樣子其實會反而是增加了施行人工生殖的單身者異性婚姻夫妻還有同性有酒結合關係者他們自由去經營家庭權的不必要的限制而且創造了這些人"},{"start":3691.59,"end":3694.092,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":3710.512,"end":3725.612,"text":"待運契約是否以公證人作成公證書為成立要件?待運契約成立之後,堂友契約變更的需要是否要經過公證才能生法效?還有待運契約公證的時候,當事人是否親自到場?得否由代理人代為?這些事項。"},{"start":3727.093,"end":3745.7,"text":"至於關於提起受詐欺或脅迫的配偶,他可以提起代孕子女婚生否認之訴,還有他的除赤期間的部分。因為現行法已經有規定了,委員草案的部分有部分是跟現行法的規定有重疊,建起可能還要重新再整理一下。"},{"start":3747.028,"end":3749.951,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":3768.117,"end":3793.705,"text":"那至於這個法院依照瘦素夫妻或其他關係人請求依職權變更這個代孕子女探視權的部分那這個部分屬於契約自由原則本院是尊重的那只是說這個可以提起請求的利害關係人的範圍呢有到哪裡是不是有包括代孕者那還有約定代孕子女的利益是在指什麼利益的內涵呢我們還是要請見請釐清以上報告謝謝"},{"start":3800.895,"end":3802.785,"text":"謝謝,請行政院信評會代表說明。"},{"start":3815.579,"end":3838.838,"text":"主席、各位委員以及各位在場的先進,大家好。今天的會議審查有關委員及各黨團所提的人工生殖法部分條文修正草案共八案。法案的內容跟代孕女性與代孕子女的權益密切相關,一直以來都是行政院性別平等會委員關切的重要議題。"},{"start":3840.799,"end":3864.209,"text":"那僅就委員在立次會議討論時提醒幾點的一個注意事項首先針對實施代孕之醫療機構以及居間機構應該有適切的管制跟管理的機制例如禁止廣告跟罰則等等以避免代孕行為商品化若是婦女"},{"start":3865.009,"end":3866.53,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":3882.29,"end":3894.194,"text":"由於本案涉及醫療侵權倫理、代孕契約法律關係以及社會層面等等問題,行政院已經請貴府部徵詢各界意見周圍處理,薛部長剛剛也已經說明辦理情形。針對貴院委員及黨團所提的草案也分別針對以上的相關議題也徵定了規範處理,我們都敬表尊重。"},{"start":3911.46,"end":3929.661,"text":"以上簡要說明進行自教。謝謝。謝謝本會議各項相關書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報。現在開始詢答做以下宣告。"},{"start":3930.899,"end":3943.448,"text":"本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於散會前提出與其不受理沒有休息時間預定預定中午休息然後一往列"},{"start":3959.392,"end":3966.235,"text":"審查法案不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員賴慧恩賴委員發言謝謝主席那個有請那個法務部部長、薛部長還有國建署那個"},{"start":3982.643,"end":3999.857,"text":"規務部有請行政單位,謝謝。是,還有法務部參事。有請法務部參事,謝謝。我先有一個問題請教法務部參事。這參事,這從你的書面報告裡頭,你特別有提出來就是說"},{"start":4012.56,"end":4013.4,"text":"﹐提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4033.57,"end":4033.93,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4061.127,"end":4061.667,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":4081.891,"end":4107.726,"text":"現在是必須政策先決定我們才有辦法做通盤的全盤的考量好所以現在政策還沒有決定嗎所以就是說法務部也沒有辦法去做一個全盤的考量是不是這個意思應該可以這麼說是不是應該是應該還是是還是不是你要回答的非常的正確"},{"start":4108.976,"end":4133.514,"text":"因為你是法務部啊。是。是嘛。好,謝謝。那接著就是說部長,再請教你,就是其實代理義母已經會籍了一個社會的公司,部長。那這個人工生殖法的一個修正案的在今天的排審,其實我想在社會大界、社會各界裡頭有那個支持的也有反對的。"},{"start":4134.395,"end":4134.635,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4152.523,"end":4153.084,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4177.008,"end":4177.509,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4193.464,"end":4194.245,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4211.335,"end":4237.042,"text":"還有就是擬性的身體會不會變成是一個工具的遺歷?針對的這一個部分部長請你說明你目前嚴厲的狀況是怎麼樣?那你怎麼消除民眾的這些遺歷呢?的確在大理運母這邊我必須要說目前社會還沒有共識而且是有非常尖銳的這個意見上面的一些對立"},{"start":4239.242,"end":4253.498,"text":"但是他是一個應該被討論的議題所以我們會提出將來如果說這一個版本我們也會提出有關於代孕的一個版本的內容供社會來討論"},{"start":4254.999,"end":4282.47,"text":"但是這並不代表說這個是衛福部的或者是行政院的最後的立場那因為這裡面涉及到的問題其實是蠻多的比方說剛剛委員提到的究竟這個代孕他是要有有償的還是公益的那這是一個問題第二個那剛剛委員也提也問到法務部"},{"start":4283.81,"end":4302.797,"text":"現在代孕在國外去做在國內是不合法但是有的就到國外去做他把小孩子生下來之後這小孩子的地位是怎麼樣?因為我們國內因為不承認有代孕是一個合法的所以這小孩子出來之後要怎麼樣變成"},{"start":4304.699,"end":4319.14,"text":"這一個當初去委託的這一對夫妻,他的這一個小孩。那我們目前走的是用民法,也就是說三人生那算三人的,還在那裡去收養。"},{"start":4322.45,"end":4345.276,"text":"幾乎現在只有這樣一條路。那國內就是沒有這個代理義母的一個法律性。就是說他在法律上的位階其實是沒有一個位階上的一個那個被承認的。那我再請教部長,那現在的一個狀況就是說在代理義母這一個修法裡頭有沒有辦過公聽會?"},{"start":4347.861,"end":4368.204,"text":"這個很久以前了,差不多也將近十幾二十年前,那時候有省議室的民主有辦過這樣子的一個公聽會。是,好,那部長謝謝,我想就是說其實在這整體的一個修法裡頭,我們面臨到了很多面向的一個困境,今天"},{"start":4368.704,"end":4369.784,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4396.573,"end":4406.764,"text":"﹑一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「"},{"start":4417.876,"end":4436,"text":"應該是說每一種,真的剛剛委員提到單身女性、同性的伴侶、代理母這些都各自有各自要去解決的問題。所以他必須要有一連串的配套各自去做配合才有可能。"},{"start":4439.341,"end":4444.385,"text":"講來講去都講不清楚,因為問題太多。那我接著請問署長,那個署長就是說你在補助那個試管嬰兒這個的費用的一個補助,那就是說我們增加了就是這兩年我們增加了1.3萬的新生兒,這個其實是一個非常正確的一個政策。"},{"start":4462.8,"end":4486.399,"text":"﹑一、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法�"},{"start":4487.6,"end":4511.892,"text":"他就是他的機率高達八成那在臨床上補孕夫婦進行的一個生殖其實平均都要三次以上才能成功那你這樣子如果我們有很多醫學上的數據裡頭告訴我們那是不是40歲到45歲這個補助了三次這個是不是不夠呢有沒有辦法在研擬多加個兩次呢"},{"start":4513.939,"end":4530.351,"text":"應該這樣說啦齁 這個我們會一直在評估當中一直在因為根據這個醫學的進步齁那過去會定這個是跟大家跟生殖醫學會互談一些以專業的討論跟國際的他們的做法但是剛剛委員提到了那醫學的進步以後可能未來我們考量的是還是成功率跟風險的問題齁那這個東西都可以拿入未來所以還是要再跟雙方團體再討論評估"},{"start":4542.219,"end":4544.259,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4586.541,"end":4586.982,"text":"請部長。謝謝主席。"},{"start":4591.454,"end":4591.654,"text":"委員好"},{"start":4622.194,"end":4650.56,"text":"很多媒體也有報導,他說不少案例,甚至有很多的名人,經濟可以,他們都會到國外去尋求代理任務。實際上很多國家,剛剛有談到33個國家,他們都可以實行合法化。我們的民調幾乎也差不多有60幾個%,有六成,都是基期,但是我們的政府好像是比較保守一點,到目前為止,"},{"start":4651.523,"end":4661.751,"text":"三、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4669.705,"end":4684.51,"text":"現在現在的一個障礙當然就是最大的就是對於代孕者也就是說這孕母本身那因為他要承受這個懷孕的風險那所以說對他的保護是不是足夠這是一個那第二個"},{"start":4685.87,"end":4709.907,"text":"會變成說女人的子宮被用來當成一種工具這種倫理道德上面的一個考量那第三個就是子女的這一個法律地位的問題那我剛剛回答那個賴委員的回答的時候我有提到說現在的狀況大概就是變成是這樣你請代孕者生下來在國外阿姊拿他回來拼這個來收養但是"},{"start":4712.048,"end":4737.327,"text":"很多的這個這種修法的版本或者是說國外的例子是他是用契約契約去解決這個問題然後代孕者跟這個夫妻這委託夫妻兩個去簽好這個契約但是這個契約本身是有一些問題的因為他是一個民事的契約民事的契約通常"},{"start":4738.408,"end":4740.891,"text":"委員林楚茵等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":4755.228,"end":4757.65,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":4781.105,"end":4800.377,"text":"安全和合法的路他們走,我們不想想這條,只有說擔心這個擔心那個,外國也可以做啊,為什麼我們台灣就不可以做?我們不可以做,我們可以借助外國,他們是怎麼樣怎麼樣規範,那我們也來怎麼樣怎麼樣規範,我們把它定一個條法條,把它定規範,這樣不是好嗎?這樣不是可以幫助他們嗎?所以我委員報告就是這樣,我們綜合這一些我們收集到國際的資料,"},{"start":4807.881,"end":4824.562,"text":"你剛才說,二十幾年前開過公聽會,二十幾年到現在還要訂,還要開來開去,花太久了啦。這個社會,其實二十年來社會的狀況是有改變的。所以說,這個我覺得...現在大部分的六成人民都可以接受的啊,不是嗎?"},{"start":4826.865,"end":4847.56,"text":"我不敢講這麼武斷的話,說大部分都可以接受,這個還是需要民眾再來做,因為很多民眾其實並不太清楚這裏面的爭議點在哪裡,這並沒有那麼清楚,所以說我們覺得說﹖其實他們要人做代理義務,他自己也有心理準備,也不會說什麼"},{"start":4851.581,"end":4853.202,"text":"所以今天我們不提版本就是我們也不贊成"},{"start":4869.83,"end":4899.301,"text":"不是,我們還在討論在收集資料。哦,收集,要到30年還在收集啦。沒有啦,社會已經不一樣啦,所以你要處理的issue是不一樣的啦。我們更沒辦法像今天在這裡委員提的提案來去加以修正,就出言了,沒辦法。今天晚上,今天很多委員...委員提出來的案,老實說都是有他的不完整的地方啦,所以這也要坦白講啦。"},{"start":4899.781,"end":4901.863,"text":"人工生殖法的第21條,夫妻如果離婚的話,那麼人工形成的胚胎我們要把它銷毀,是不是這樣?"},{"start":4927.21,"end":4942.613,"text":"我請問,如果夫妻雙方都同意保留這個胚胎的話,為什麼一定要銷毀?這當然可以討論,如果雙方都同意,可以來討論。這個是可以考慮的,如果雙方都同意保留這個胚胎的話。第二個問題,"},{"start":4954.181,"end":4958.915,"text":"如果一方一方死亡的話那也是要強制銷毀對不對"},{"start":4960.987,"end":4967.25,"text":"現在可以改變嗎?因為現在你未婚還是同性,你都可以同意說可以人工啊,為什麼這個問題不發生改革?這個部分其實可以討論,因為已經有發生過幾個案子就是這樣,一方的死亡,也就是夫那邊的死亡了,那其他願意﹖有時候比如講啊,"},{"start":4987.8,"end":4990.909,"text":"三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":4995.37,"end":4996.831,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5017.691,"end":5019.332,"text":"五月份的時候我們說要去考察嘛,我們的九書中"},{"start":5045.844,"end":5053.468,"text":"一、委員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案．事由．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．"},{"start":5075.359,"end":5084.067,"text":"三、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．"},{"start":5095.798,"end":5117.806,"text":"對他們好嗎?這要跟委員報告,有兩點要澄清一下。第一點,辦公室要成立,這已經確定了,過幾天就會成立。基金呢?這基金將來,我們預定是要擴大到百億,但是今年是只有21億。"},{"start":5118.866,"end":5138.163,"text":"那這20億的話就是參照的就是英國的這種做法,在我們這邊叫做那個暫時性的支付。其實英國也是這樣,你是一隊,你先遊啊,讓你先用。用完,你如果好過好,他就併入他們的健保裡面。"},{"start":5140.905,"end":5141.845,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5159.15,"end":5161.491,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5186.724,"end":5200.271,"text":"那入到健保給付的項目的話,那還有一筆錢。那一筆錢明年的話是40幾億。但是咱的陳院長一說癌症基金明年5、20之前要法治化,結果現在是怎樣?消風又出現了。現在就先放...先放...沒問題,就是先放在健保裡面。"},{"start":5205.494,"end":5219.978,"text":"對,每年就是擬具在現場擬具就是擬具在現場就是擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在現場擬具在"},{"start":5232.222,"end":5233.502,"text":"下一位有請蘇喬惠、蘇偉仁"},{"start":5264.775,"end":5269.297,"text":"好,謝謝主席。請學部長,等你去處理門。就請部長,我做貼心的。謝謝委員"},{"start":5275.401,"end":5294.418,"text":"好部長好部長欸我覺得剛剛齁這個欸吳委員在質詢的這個包括像癌症新藥的題目我也非常非常的關心跟您就教過很多次了但是其實我覺得欸我們其實在這個明年齁上一次你說到政府要擴大醫療投資的這個部分其實我們"},{"start":5295.319,"end":5296.22,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5310.937,"end":5328.38,"text":"提高護理人員的診察費、津貼等相關的勞務費用就有46.59億。兒童急重症的照護、診察相關勞務費用也共4.61億。這就是持續投資醫事人員嘛。那在這個癌症新藥的部分其實也有在裡面啊不是嗎部長?"},{"start":5329.201,"end":5349.098,"text":"有嘛對不對所以這麼多的一直大家在主張的要照顧醫事人員投資醫護人員就是投資台灣健康這端子也在講的嘛你都有做到政府都有做到但我覺得宣傳實在太少啦宣傳實在太少我們投注了資本讓"},{"start":5350.759,"end":5374.426,"text":"醫護人員醫事人員可以更得到更多的照顧那以及大家關心的面向這個實在是應該多做宣傳不然的話齁你看連國會議員都沒什麼情策這我覺得很可笑的啦博長你覺得呢?對啦這其實齁我剛才講20個那些是新要的戰士性支付但是如果包括這些被核准已經放到了齁"},{"start":5375.126,"end":5375.166,"text":"對阿﹗對阿﹗"},{"start":5391.61,"end":5393.471,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5413.003,"end":5441.442,"text":"護理師人員的出走潮已經大幅減緩明明內文是這樣可是標題還是跟你寫說護理師還在出走啦這樣我覺得真的是標題殺人我覺得這很可惜啦所以第一個我是延續著前面我是希望說衛福部在社會關注的重大議題的這些事情你做到的部分應該要再加強宣傳這是第一點好那第二我們回來今天的人工生殖法的這個部分我也是跟部長就教啦"},{"start":5442.383,"end":5444.043,"text":"提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5470.748,"end":5484.858,"text":"兩十年來的社會變遷讓現在適合生育年齡的單身女性其實是比例增高非常的多這是事實嘛大家都必須承認社會現況就是是這樣所以我們"},{"start":5485.598,"end":5507.621,"text":"要討論人工生殖法裡面剛剛相關的不管是代理孕母也好或者是這種單身女性是不是可以這種做人工生殖的這些部分確實它有越來越高的迫切性這個部長你應該也同意吧的確啦因為現在很多婚姻那在離婚率上面也是"},{"start":5508.829,"end":5509.269,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5527.466,"end":5542.455,"text":"那這兩者在現在的社會上面其實是佔了人數蠻高的但是如果他們想要有小孩自己的小孩我是覺得這個也沒有什麼太大的理由去"},{"start":5544.276,"end":5547.557,"text":"一、委員林楚茵等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":5565.282,"end":5567.183,"text":"三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":5574.528,"end":5575.729,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5595.822,"end":5616.405,"text":"是啦!所以你如果從這個面向來講你會覺得欸這個我們為什麼要禁止你會覺得欸好像哪裡就卡住了嘛對不對這是第一個狀態不過我們也承認啦齁就是以剛剛前面幾位委員提出來的例子就是說如果是一個呃一個受胚胎一個胚胎了啦不是卵胚胎那"},{"start":5617.266,"end":5635.512,"text":"離婚之後那他是否還適合成長成為一個生命如果夫妻兩方之間有人不同意的話那他還適合嗎那適不適合的原因是在於因為這個生命誕生之後在社會上他有非常多的法律關係存在這就不是只是給予他生命這樣子的一個簡單的狀況了嘛"},{"start":5636.812,"end":5637.233,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5657.274,"end":5665.736,"text":"倫理、法律對第三人權益、對兒童的權益保護都非常複雜且需慎重處理所以衛福部沒有預設立場開放討論我把你逐字抄錄下來這就是現在衛福部的態度嘛對不對所以我認為是這樣我認為今天只有這幾個部會其實完全不夠"},{"start":5677.839,"end":5699.929,"text":"因為這件事情真的牽涉的面向太多了。它不是只是一個製造生命的過程。它是這個生命誕生之後還牽涉到不只是這個個體甚至是兩個家族嗎?它是不是需要有家族甚至是第三方等等有太多的問題。所以我贊成你說應該要慎重考慮啦。但是這個考慮到底要考慮多久?"},{"start":5701.248,"end":5723.721,"text":"我是覺得至少你要有一些對外的一些收集意見的機制比方說比較正式的是由委員會來開公聽會那可能一次還不夠因為這裡面的issue太多了可能要幾次分別對不同的issue去做處理"},{"start":5724.381,"end":5747.153,"text":"那把這些各界的這一個意見收集過來之後的話而且它是一個正式的一個管道那出來的這一個不然有沒有共識才可以說在我們審查這一個法案的時候作為比較好的一個參考的"},{"start":5747.433,"end":5769.514,"text":"對阿我是肯定你今天願意採這樣開放的態度啦因為表示你這樣其實能夠回應到社會的需求啦不過我是認為齁真的這個需求的聲音是蠻大的那我也希望這樣你剛剛說的這個步驟如果真的是需要這樣的一個步驟我也同意要有個正式的全面的收集管道但這個期程一定要加快阿這是本席的意見啦當然是這樣子好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":5777.222,"end":5778.303,"text":"有請吳益勤委員有請部長"},{"start":5794.744,"end":5820.203,"text":"委員好部長早今天有兩個等於是有三個議題要跟您再做一個討論有關下一個就是特需兒少的一個視覺互能的這個部分要特別謝謝衛福部因為這個部分在上個禮拜一我們臺大兒童醫院我們舉辦的這個特殊兒童及青少年的視覺互能計畫的成果發表"},{"start":5820.863,"end":5846.922,"text":"那在這個特殊需求遠科的部分我們真的是過去又努力了6年來推動這個有關這個視覺負能的一個包括一個管理中心4個據點那希望在北中南東都有那現在就是已經有台大來協助我們當這個管理中心那那天的一個成果發表也提到有超過600個家庭受益"},{"start":5849.324,"end":5849.584,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5876.398,"end":5876.738,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5898.155,"end":5911.204,"text":"三、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":5927.415,"end":5928.376,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":5944.99,"end":5967.002,"text":"對一些特殊的孩子或是智能障礙的孩子他有時候你根本搞不清楚他到底發生了什麼事是因為視覺的問題還是智力的問題後來經過眼科的特殊眼科的協助去幫他解決問題解決摘出問題之後還可以幫忙他復能我覺得這非常非常重要所以"},{"start":5967.382,"end":5982.573,"text":"要來跟部長拜託的是說有關這樣的一個特需兒少的視覺賦能計畫我們可不可以加倍?報委員這一個本來今年是5家嘛明年我們會增加到10家那本來收案是750名明年會到1600名門診會從350診增加到800診"},{"start":5995.987,"end":5996.668,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":6016.283,"end":6016.823,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":6035.116,"end":6060.552,"text":"表示說一整只能看兩個所以你如果要做外展服務的話從這邊去抽掉人力出去的話可能會有問題所以如果要做外展服務可能要另外有計劃所以這是不是也一併來考慮因為我們看到那天的報告裡面其實在偏鄉上台東地區他們是做了蠻多外展的服務甚至到綠島去做篩檢所以我覺得他有一些"},{"start":6061.292,"end":6061.913,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":6079.775,"end":6086.376,"text":"好謝謝那下一頁我上上禮11月24號謝謝部長我在詢問就有關營養餐飲服務的部分那謝謝終於在11月28號部長有回應了我們營養餐飲的部分對於1.5倍到2.5倍的施養者中低收入戶的一個補助這個謝謝部長回應不然我們當時整個這大概很多服務團體都要"},{"start":6107.12,"end":6107.78,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":6135.489,"end":6135.829,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":6166.045,"end":6192.558,"text":"接下來要跟部長討論的是今天的一個主題人工生殖法我想這個我看到這個新聞的時候大概就是我們吳昭君吳處長在說要修這個人工生殖法的時候當然團體就有人出來有些不同的意見那我其實在看剛剛部長的一個報告裡面其實93年就有代理孕母的公民共識會議"},{"start":6193.899,"end":6215.129,"text":"一百零一年待運制度公民審議會議都有已經十年二十年前了那整個次代或所謂的這個環境應該要再改變你們最近有開公聽會嗎還沒有對吧署長就立刻說要修法這十年來的變化有掌握嗎"},{"start":6216.537,"end":6228.671,"text":"跟委員報告,其實修法跟公聽會這兩個的先後次序都是可以的,並沒有說必須啦。你先有一個草案的出稿出來,公聽會是會比較好討論啦。"},{"start":6231.835,"end":6258.434,"text":"好,因為部長您也是學法的所以我要問你,剛其實法務部的報告裡面就有提到嘛一、我們人工生殖法裡面規定那個當然就是我們人工生殖法裡面出生的孩子當然就是視為分生子女嘛但民法裡面有規定嘛這個親子關係是以生母與子女有自然之分娩逝死的血緣關係"},{"start":6259.915,"end":6260.796,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":6275.094,"end":6276.596,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":6298.177,"end":6318.831,"text":"是否需要配合修法這要看最後採的是什麼樣的一個方式目前世界上大概有兩種方式去認定這個子女代孕的子女的身份第一個像德國那邊的話他就是仍然代孕者即生所重出"},{"start":6319.491,"end":6341.427,"text":"他生的那個是媽媽然後這個委託的夫妻再去再去收養用收養的方式但是大部分可能都是用契約就是先訂好那這個未來的話那這個就是我的小孩是那像這樣的契約我們政府要不要相當的規範"},{"start":6342.668,"end":6364.682,"text":"這個契約的規範是非常非常複雜的一件事情我剛剛提到的這裡面是這個契約到底他的對行為的強制到什麼樣的程度比方說這個契約裡面就可能會談到說你在這個代孕者在這個代孕這一個懷孕期間"},{"start":6365.182,"end":6365.502,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":6380.509,"end":6381.089,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":6395.898,"end":6415.21,"text":"還是有一些他可能還不夠周延的部分。聽起來是需要更周延的一個相關法律還有整個可能有相關的配套措施要一併來思考。不是只有說我們人工生殖法這麼單一的一個。我們同意代理孕母就好。因為如果真的要同意代理孕母的話後面有許多的配套必須要去處理。"},{"start":6416.371,"end":6435.542,"text":"所以最後還是我相信這個人工生殖法不只是當然也不只是代理義母這個議題而已其實還有單身女性還有同婚的議題那這個有點程式上是不太一樣所以也有很多不同的聲音所以我想我們還是很期望說我們立法院有沒有機會開公聽會讓這個事情10年了應該要再10年應該要再重新開公聽會讓大家有一個"},{"start":6443.447,"end":6443.627,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":6473.59,"end":6478.592,"text":"下一位請飛鴻太妃﹑秋泰元﹑秋泰元﹑秋委員趙偉拍攝﹑好﹑我們"},{"start":6503.128,"end":6531.492,"text":"呃那個請部長好了來我們謝謝主席齁那個有請部長辛苦了阿文好這表示咖啡不夠好齁用剛剛那一張好了齁先前面那一張部長我兩在進入今天的主題之前有兩個事情跟你請教跟你請教"},{"start":6533.55,"end":6545.733,"text":"昨天早上有兩個記者會在進行一個是台灣醫院協會發起的還有醫師公會前年會、私立醫院協會、台灣醫務管理協會聯絡人是洪子仁理事長、吳明彥律師長等等"},{"start":6562.203,"end":6578.486,"text":"針對我們行政院核定健保的點子比較低落一點為了提高醫療機構的韌性、優化醫療環境用公務預算來補我們健保會"},{"start":6591.078,"end":6618.556,"text":"非醫療代表也是有抗議我想站在我是要重申,感覺上其實這是一個制度上讓我們一直很心痛的地方為什麼我們共同在關心台灣人民的健康會有這樣的制度涉及到美式從健保會站到社會一定要這樣子嗎?"},{"start":6621.932,"end":6650.365,"text":"那站在因為我也是醫學院的教授我至少教過一兩千個以幾千個那個台大醫學系的學生當然還有其他醫學院學生我們都要去上課我們期待的就是他能夠堅守醫療核心價值發揮專業然後醫療環境未來工作環境有一個可以給他發揮的我想他們的心就是這樣子在做那"},{"start":6651.604,"end":6678.417,"text":"在健保的制度之下,當他們做一塊可能只有0.7、0.8。這是一回事,如果影響到醫療院所沒辦法運作下去,到底是誰的損失?人民有沒有知道說我們健保的保惠是怎麼樣的一個組成?他其實也是有不管政府也有補助等等的這些。"},{"start":6679.209,"end":6693.621,"text":"那其實最終也是政府在照顧人民,政府也很用心,所以政府是有責任來把這件事情做好。那這一次非常有爭議的一個舉動來挽救我們醫療院所的一個運作,這是對人民的幸福。"},{"start":6701.436,"end":6715.554,"text":"我覺得未來怎麼樣應該要研究因為我看過兩個月的憲法委員我當了委員好像我當了立委以後就辭掉但是那兩三個月可以說是憲法會是回頭回頭的"},{"start":6720.034,"end":6749.063,"text":"我想我們所有的代表美術區都真的可能是幾天睡不著覺何必這樣子一個好好的來談說到底要給我們有多少經費啊人民的需求是在哪裡我們共同來meet這樣來做不是很好的事情嗎這部分我個人還是覺得當然站在不同的角度來思考有不同的想法我這個我都知道但是最終是人民的健康有沒有得到好的啊你說好吧醫療體系有浪費"},{"start":6750.134,"end":6779.654,"text":"那你健保會不是督促很久了嗎?健保署也督促很久了嗎?那為什麼這個還會浪費?那是不是都是待夫指手?對不對?不能用這個理由說醫療體系在浪費,浪費是制度不好啊。我們剛才講你把安寧療護做好一點,你把居家醫療做好一點,可以節省多少不必要的那個才是真正不需要的醫療費用。那個這才是制度的改善,這幾年改善的非常好啊。"},{"start":6780.345,"end":6798.576,"text":"所以我們的制度已經是世界國際級的,可是我們的糧草卻不夠。我想這個部分可能,我想社會各界要去了解醫師、醫療團體是絕對每天日日一日用心要照顧民眾,但是總不能讓他"},{"start":6803.524,"end":6826.596,"text":"吃不飽醫療院所沒有辦法請足夠的專業人力,最後是不好的。布小副長你可不可以簡單回應一下?因為時間有關係。其實是這一次當然有兩件事情是同時我們做了處理。第一個就是因為這個COVID由法定傳染病降為這個第5級變成第4級。"},{"start":6830.638,"end":6857.318,"text":"那變成這個他的醫療費用就不再由公務預算來支出而回到健保那造成了點子的滑落這是一件事情那第二件事情當然就明年的總額那我們這個合定那成長到4.7%這兩件事情那這兩件事情第一件事情那個是非預期的法律的改變造成的那這個風險本來就是有"},{"start":6859.56,"end":6879.253,"text":"有這樣子的一個制度設計,但是裡面的預算太少,因為只有8億,所以不足。所以才動之到這一個公務預算注入、預注到這個健保基金的這一個部分。那這個部分的話,會引起爭議的原因是"},{"start":6880.854,"end":6901.67,"text":"我們平常以往沒有說公務預算直接去預註健保基金這種事情是從今年240億才開始的那往後可能每年都還有這一個200億那這些其實這個行政院預註進來的時候並沒有指定說他只能放在安全準備"},{"start":6903.291,"end":6928.054,"text":"也就是說它的用途並沒有特別去做設計。那這時候我們...市長,你簡單講一下,我出幾分錢了。我們剛才這個問題是拿來用應該是不算違法的問題,而且是合情合理啦。我想非常支持鋪長所說的啦,以及我也敬佩我們政府有膽量,有魄力。"},{"start":6929.556,"end":6955.825,"text":"來維護我們人民的健康,我想這個要給他們最大的掌聲。至於各個意見,我們也應該都來聽。那聽了以後,就是改善未來的一個制度跟協商相關的機制。真的讓人民的健康、權益不要受到損傷。好,那第二個張圖好了。這個謝謝部長。第二個我還是謝謝部長,前兩天跟我們衛環團隊,到埔統去做了非常詳盡的"},{"start":6957.645,"end":6975.616,"text":"不管是在衛福部的領域、環境部的領域我們在那邊也感謝我跟部長都一起共同來感謝我們有醫療的同仁願意在偏鄉當然不只澎湖島在離島各方面都很辛苦部長也在那邊充分的表達對他們的支持"},{"start":6976.55,"end":6992.547,"text":"那這個給他們鼓勵,那將來當然看起來集中症的一個硬體一直在增加,軟體怎麼增加這個部長承受很大的壓力,尤其我們楊耀維督促得非常急迫"},{"start":6994.553,"end":7011.244,"text":"另外我還是要提醒我們在山地離島還是不要只有集中症,怎麼樣讓他在每一個年齡層,我們禮拜三要審國民營養,每一個年齡層的營養要怎麼去處理,以及預防保健。"},{"start":7012.972,"end":7038.852,"text":"那個推廣,像我自己的小孩,我也沒有走長得很高,我的男生小孩都是180,女生174,走水都大家走到,我說要吃,我就吃得比較好,住在河口旁邊,就鈴聲響趕快衝過去,睡到很飽,吃到飽睡到飽,睡到大汗,那個預防保健推廣,"},{"start":7040.113,"end":7068.246,"text":"也是每個年齡層都要做的。我想阿伯要把各個地方、每個鄉鎮、每個鄉鎮都要集中症,可是人員他的片段性他是需要。但是讓他預防保健,讓他不要生病才是重要。這也是新加坡的總理李昇龍有一次在對全國的醫政會、國政會特別強調希望每一個人都要去做預防保健,都要把營養照顧好,不要讓家人擔心。"},{"start":7069.451,"end":7095.636,"text":"你會生病這樣子啦齁那我們感謝部長啦齁好那因為時間關係我們快的帶過去今天的主題齁那個有關於少子化的一個問題齁我想今天要台灣的主題跟少子化有一點關係我們都希望要生的人可以可以社會做好的環境生的啦啊即使我們每一個人都旁邊都有很多因為生不出小孩那種痛苦的經歷"},{"start":7097.028,"end":7124.999,"text":"那個真的是已經就是會加破了不是一道人亡但是真的會加破我覺得站在醫療立場我們絕對一定要全力來幫忙要生的人怎麼樣要生那整體國家來講就是一個少子化的一個困境的話大家過去幾天一直在努力我今天沒時間我就請衛福部就回答我這一張用書面回答我這一張好不好因為這是婦產科的建議我想蠻詳盡的蠻周全的來解決少子化的問題請問下一張"},{"start":7127.588,"end":7156.117,"text":"那這個部分,今天的部分齁,大概婦產科醫學會也有他的建議啦齁當然我也那個,婦產科也有提到一些修齁,一些修法的一個擔心齁,那這個修法的擔心我想今天都有討論我就不請教了齁,右邊這個啊,我只是表達說婦產科醫學會他們的專家齁當然都是整天在處理這些事情的嘛齁,他們也了解到社會有期待"},{"start":7157.148,"end":7182.59,"text":"但是分委怎麼樣一步一步來推展,是不是能夠分階段大家來努力。我想真的很感佩我們召委跟各位委員、行政部門共同來討論,這個真的很重要,也是人所需要的事情。但是我們怎麼樣讓他做得更有共識、更合乎倫理、更合乎法律怎麼樣來配合,我想未來我會支持。"},{"start":7183.371,"end":7203.974,"text":"我們都趕快來做公聽會,趕快把這件事情做一個很積極的來看看討論進行。這樣部長,這是,這個不用那個人,你給他回答,那個頭上那個梳子花,那就是我的分享跟建議。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席,謝謝。謝謝邱太元學委員,下一位請徐志勇學委員。"},{"start":7215.084,"end":7228.03,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請謝部長。有請部長,謝謝。這個上上禮拜跟邱委員,邱少偉講的,你還是讓副總統候選人站起來了。"},{"start":7231.749,"end":7255.356,"text":"不管如何,我們未完委員會有個召委在這次的選舉當這個副總統的候選人我們所有的未完委員會的成員應該被感激又濃煙不管選舉如何特別剩下40天還是41天左右召委還可以在這麼繁忙的選舉"},{"start":7257.273,"end":7270.242,"text":"行程當中可以在這邊主持會議對他的敬業應該也表示非常高的肯定。部長今天我們審查這個人工生殖法"},{"start":7273.151,"end":7296.93,"text":"如果通過的話當然我想對於這個少子化多多少少都會有幫助啦應該新的baby都會出來但是我們也不能因為對少子化有所注意我們就草草通過這個案子這應該是基本上的這個立場提到這個少子化我們在"},{"start":7298.271,"end":7322.01,"text":"一百零六年以來幾乎我們的新生兒的出生人數可以說幾乎都低於二十萬人差不多每年都一萬一萬的在減少我們就舉這個今年來講可能不到十四萬人明年也有可能不到十三萬人可能啦當然"},{"start":7323.12,"end":7343.369,"text":"明年農年也許會。也可能啦,農年可能會。但是都是,趨勢都是比較往下啦。當然少子化都會帶來很多的影響,我們也不必在這邊討論啦。各行各業的切工啊,譬如說阿兵哥兵員的短缺啊,大學都要關門啊,勞保健保。"},{"start":7343.849,"end":7346.993,"text":"三、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":7362.421,"end":7379.324,"text":"人工生殖技術的經費在112年是有27億多113年變成減少了乘下26億多但是在我們的成果看起來確實是有成果的有效的"},{"start":7381.062,"end":7404.844,"text":"眾統在這邊是疑問是說,既然我們這個計畫是有成果有效的,為什麼我們明年的預算反而比今年的少,113年的比將近少了快一億元?是因為111、112的執行上面執行率的關係還是怎麼樣才會變成比較少?"},{"start":7407.261,"end":7422.91,"text":"應該不是執行率的關係,因為執行率一直都不錯,而是說我們去做退估的時候是用之前的那幾年的這個試管嬰兒的人數去推的啦,那所以退估起來的話大概"},{"start":7425.736,"end":7448.267,"text":"我們還是算每年是補助差不多4萬2千人,這樣去做推估了。實際上會來接受這個補助的,那當然是情況而定。那我也是有一點擔心,剛剛委員提到明年如果是農年的話,也許他退休會比較高一點。"},{"start":7450.348,"end":7476.628,"text":"不過如果是明年要生的可能有一半以上是今年就已經補了已經做出了所以等到明年才會出生的那年初的時候也許也會有不少所以我們會評估然後就滾動式的去做檢討如果有需要那增加預算的話我們循這個預算程序我們是認為說對於解決少子化的問題我們應該"},{"start":7478.209,"end":7503.016,"text":"無所不用其極的這些種種的方式比如說就是我們沒有把預算減少的話我們還是保持原來的預算的話甚至於對補助的經費怎麼樣提高還是怎麼樣更去鼓勵讓一些不能自然懷孕的一些夫妻也可以有他們心愛的這個小baby這是應該我們大家一起來努力的"},{"start":7504.296,"end":7519.357,"text":"還有第二個問題就是說這個報紙前幾天也登的蠻大的就是我們台北市醫學中心洗牌好像說從來以前都沒有這個這個把誰哪家醫院擠下來的"},{"start":7520.919,"end":7535.414,"text":"部長您知道這個結果公告了嗎?還沒。我還沒有看到正式的這個公告。所以部長您也還不知道結果?一方面還沒有公布,一方面您也還不知道這個結果?對。"},{"start":7536.835,"end":7556.25,"text":"但是消息外面都知道了所以我們現在要請醫車會進入去做這個查查因為這些委員都有簽保密協定所以訊息怎麼樣漏出去的這個我們還是必須要做調查"},{"start":7557.392,"end":7577.184,"text":"對,應該要做調查,甚至於應該怎麼樣去懲處,應該都要這樣子。這個好像就是這個通風報信,這個報好消息啦。如果說沒有去影響到結果的話,影響到評鑑的這個過程的話,我是覺得還OK啦。"},{"start":7577.924,"end":7601.407,"text":"但是已經說公平評鑑出來了,你就提早去報這個假消息,台北慈濟他又很高興,他又講說他接到很多電話,這會不會到時候曝光死啊?這個是評鑑的分數怎麼樣就怎麼樣,我們也不會再去做一個更動,但是這還有其他的參考的那個"},{"start":7605.794,"end":7617.34,"text":"這個我還沒有接到那個最後的這一個結果的這種公文我還沒有接到這一個不過就是說我們從"},{"start":7619.896,"end":7642.933,"text":"從另外一個角度去看這個平建的改革是在SARS之後那時候我是當醫事處長所以我大概全盤都了解說當時是怎麼樣去做設計的那現在已經又過了20年了其實這些平建的制度裡面有一些可能不是很合時代"},{"start":7643.833,"end":7666.759,"text":"在當時認為是比較重要的政策要去推,現在可能沒有了。我瞭解,我不希望副總統何顯然站起來。公務員跟非公務員他這個洩密罪大家都知道了,也規範的在刑法132條都規定的很清楚了。那個也是蠻嚴重的。我是想說,我們一定就是要"},{"start":7667.419,"end":7668.86,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":7682.788,"end":7699.204,"text":"何必要擠下哪一家呢?讓它變成9家不行嗎?我的自己的疑惑是這樣子。該委員報告齁,這也是我們我剛剛在提的說我們即將啟動的這個醫學這個評鑑的改革的部分的話我們會考慮這一點。因為事實上從當時去訂說200萬人口有一家醫學中心,剛開始訂的時候"},{"start":7707.572,"end":7719.541,"text":"臺北區就超過了。臺北區一直是8家,但是臺北區的人口現在7、8百萬。所以一開始就超過了。那未來還需不需要有這樣的限制,我們是會去做檢討。謝謝徐委員。下一位請洪森和洪委員。"},{"start":7744.753,"end":7746.654,"text":"學部長有請部長委員好部長我們今天委員會的主題是這個人工生殖法的修法那我想這部法其實從2007年到現在其實已經算起來已經有16年其實沒有好好的來討論"},{"start":7770.786,"end":7778.332,"text":"三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":7791.903,"end":7792.763,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":7814.671,"end":7841.191,"text":"那一直到今天其實我們看到衛福部的布板的草案其實一直都沒有我必須認真說我認為這個進度真的是太慢了不想今年在我在今年的10月3號的時候其實就已經針對單身女性跟女同志的配偶使用人工生殖的技術的議題我們其實就已經開過公聽會那很可惜當時其實國建署其實也是沒有給出一個明確的修法的時程"},{"start":7842.312,"end":7842.913,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":7859.369,"end":7860.49,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":7884.301,"end":7906.836,"text":"所以部長其實我們都知道其實台灣的試管的那個著床成功率是世界數一數二的可是我們本國級的年輕人想生小孩的年輕人卻還是要因為性傾向跟婚姻狀態被排除在外我自己認為這是一件蠻不合理的事情所以部長我想跟部長分享"},{"start":7907.757,"end":7931.593,"text":"其實現在我們有很多人的觀念真的跟過去真的已經有很多不同了那異性戀雙方合意結婚生下的小孩我說實話在很多案例裡面也沒有辦法保證一定都健康快樂幸福快樂但單親家庭的小孩同志配偶收養的小孩看起來也是有機會可以幸福美滿部長你覺得?"},{"start":7933.592,"end":7961.31,"text":"沒有錯啦,這其實是小孩子他成長過程是否可以這個非常快樂的成長即使跟這個是否為單親或者是這個有父母的或者是同性是否同性的不一定有這樣子完全的一個關係部長我完全同意在這方面當然我們如果可以把配套做得更周全更好"},{"start":7961.85,"end":7962.55,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":7981.517,"end":8002.297,"text":"第二部長,我想跟你再分享幾個數據這幾個數據是衛福部在2021年公布的婦女生活狀況調查裡面我們看到的數據有同居伴侶的婦女其實高達41.2%表達不想進入婚姻關係但想要有固定伴侶離過婚的婦女有31%"},{"start":8007.307,"end":8024.794,"text":"三十點一不想進入婚姻關係但是想要有固定伴侶這代表什麼呢這些女性其實在法律上面目前都被視為叫做單身女性也就是她們是直接被人工生殖法排除在外的那這些她們可能跟我同鄉"},{"start":8026.115,"end":8027.937,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":8048.991,"end":8078.491,"text":"那包括我們看到這個國際的生育聯合會裡面他們的調查報告90個國家裡面在77個回報的國家有49個國家已經允許單身女性實施人工生殖那我就不一一講哪些國家但是我們現在我們的人工生殖法真的應該要進一步的去思考要怎麼讓可以想生的人能夠生而不是僅限於在異性戀價值的夫妻裡面也可能不只是限於在醫學上的不孕症部長你同意嗎?"},{"start":8080.032,"end":8090.686,"text":"我跟委員報告這一個部分的方向上面的話是比較沒有太多社會的爭議不是完全沒有是他的這一個爭議是比較小的"},{"start":8091.243,"end":8119.838,"text":"那他的問題會是出現在這個整個的管制的措施方面。比方說剛剛委員提到的這一些不想結婚但是有固定伴侶的。對。當他如果要做人工生殖的時候,他不會是匿名捐精。是。因為他有固定伴侶,他一定是要那一個人的這個捐精。照理來說是。對。照理來說是應該是這個樣子的。所以"},{"start":8120.498,"end":8145.746,"text":"跟這一個像是最左邊這個所謂的未婚就他從來沒有婚姻也不想進入婚姻這個時候他如果想要懷孕他可能需要的是匿名的捐贈部長我其實在幾次跟你的討論裡面我都有感覺到其實你對這方面你的認識是很深的你的討論我覺得也進入到很深的層次但我覺得現在比較可惜的一直是"},{"start":8146.846,"end":8148.908,"text":"提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":8174.748,"end":8191.158,"text":"我覺得我們在討論上都會出現很大的困難。我在我自己的提案裡面我們確實沒有提到代理孕母的制度。當然這部分的原因是因為我們看到還有部分的民間團尤其婦女團體在這邊還有疑慮。但我自己也同意"},{"start":8192.319,"end":8216.456,"text":"到底在保障女性權益跟代孕者健康跟自主權的前提之下我覺得這個部分也還是可以開放討論但如果開放的話重點是放在要有哪些管理的原則跟具體的做法那可以來減少大家對倫理上面的疑慮但我也可以想像其實如果要開放代孕母的配號的細緻的做法如果要討論這方面"},{"start":8217.276,"end":8244.865,"text":"我自己覺得可能我覺得可能沒有辦法短時間就能夠有共識了所以現在我必須說現在包括代孕單身女性女同事配偶這幾個不同的生育不平等的議題裡面我覺得真的剛才說很難一時半刻在沒有衛福部的版本下面討論這是我們看到現在在修法會討論上面一個很大的困境這是為什麼一直要跟衛福部表達需要有布板"},{"start":8245.165,"end":8246.126,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":8261.923,"end":8277.331,"text":"我個人比較自己先從有共識的議題先處理如果我們只是一直把議題一直放在過去爭議比較大的那幾個問題的話我認為可能會拖累所有的內容剛才講的這幾個議題都無法前進或都難以前進那這是大家不樂見看到的狀況"},{"start":8278.591,"end":8278.971,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":8309.272,"end":8337.267,"text":"其實很多女性其實想生的女性其實她們都來表達她們自己覺得時間上的壓力很大這是來自於生理上面的限制所以她們當看到衛福部的版本一直沒有很明確的前進或者有點停滯不全的時候那種心理的壓力感是很大的我自己很希望不管是部長或者署長在這邊吳署長在這邊我覺得應該要把大家的這個時間上面的壓力感真的應該要納入"},{"start":8337.887,"end":8344.272,"text":"三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":8367.689,"end":8395.142,"text":"要比過去更積極,沒有問題吧?這也是我們要努力的方向。那這一個部分的話,我們會來讓院板先趕快能夠出來。但是我還是要聲明,衛福部如果提出這個院板,並不表示說裡面所有的內容都是我們的主張。而是把這一個會牽涉到的問題通通是把它拿出來。"},{"start":8396.222,"end":8420.076,"text":"至於說價值判斷的部分我覺得是需要有社會共識的也許在立法院這邊是可以來形成部長你最後這一段話我可以說我是同意的而且我也支持我自己也很希望到時候討論的時候不要又有那種民粹的無限上綱好像哪一個局部的做法就要怎麼樣發揮貼上一個很可怕的扭曲的標籤這會讓事情沒辦法討論"},{"start":8420.876,"end":8439.223,"text":"我覺得這件事情確實也會考驗立法院裡面討論這件事情的品質跟素養。我同意你講這件事情。但是確實沒有一個具體的版本。我覺得這件事情的討論就常常還是會留在原地。這就會是大家覺得比較可惜的地方。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝洪文。有請王宇,王委員。"},{"start":8451.293,"end":8453.369,"text":"有請衛福部學部長有請部長"},{"start":8458.942,"end":8488.204,"text":"委員好部長其實剛剛關於這個人工生殖法相關的不同的面向和不同的議題剛剛前面洪委員其實分析的蠻多的部分了那的確我也認為說我們的確不應該因為一次希望能夠全部都涵蓋進去反而停滯不前我們是不是能夠來思考一些從比較有共識的沒有爭議的部分優先來做處理和討論其中我認為說我們看到衛福部當時為了要因應少子女化的趨勢從2021年就開始了擴大捕孕症試管嬰兒的補助方案"},{"start":8488.604,"end":8510.914,"text":"希望能夠透過補助來鼓勵以及幫助不孕症的夫妻可以生育到孩子。實際上的數據我們也看到這是2022年到6月的情況。那申請的人數相當多也成功地產下了2000多位孩子。如果以台灣一年只有13萬6000多的孩子來說的話,多能夠多出生2000個孩子其實就高達了大概1.5%左右的比例了。"},{"start":8511.274,"end":8512.335,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":8541.098,"end":8561.736,"text":"第二個部分就是女同志的配偶而我們也看到在2018年的2月公共政策的參與平台就有超過5000人聯署希望能夠開放單身女性可以合法使用人工受孕及事管嬰兒議案訴求很清楚的提到希望能夠建議放寬人工生殖法的適用對象與單身女性以及同性伴侶的建議"},{"start":8562.957,"end":8587.157,"text":"當時衛福部有召開會議,然後仍然認為應該要以兒童的最佳利益為評估的原則來研議,但是後續我們就沒有看到具體的推進和作為了。但我首先想要再次的澄清和再次的跟部長報告就是,兒童權利公約裡面有提到說每一個孩子不論父母不論孩子的身份地位不同都享有不受歧視的權利,同時兒童的事務也應該以兒童的最佳利益為優先考量。"},{"start":8587.637,"end":8612.937,"text":"所以衛福部那時候的確有提到說應該要以兒童的最佳利益來做評估但是我們認為這樣子的兒童最佳利益的評估不應該預先適用家長的婚姻狀態而排除了這些孩子獲得幸福的可能又或者現在的人工生殖法因為有這樣子的對象適用的限縮所以讓這些同志配偶們他們即便已經通過同婚多年了但是卻沒有辦法能夠合法地擁有一個孩子"},{"start":8613.297,"end":8626.7,"text":"所以想請教第一個部分是在各公共參與的平台之下聯署之後當時說要來評估現在有沒有一個具體的作為又或者是從當時到現在我們總共進行了哪些面向的評估來重新思考兒童的最佳利益涵蓋的範圍"},{"start":8627.659,"end":8648.753,"text":"有,那跟委員報告,其實這國建署這邊一直都是召集各方面的代表跟專家齁,在討論這個法案的內容。我們能不能具體跟大家說明一下,召開了幾次說明,幾次會議又或者是每次會議大概有什麼樣的方向和結論。請那個署長來說。好,謝謝。那我們這三年多來我們總共"},{"start":8650.539,"end":8679.164,"text":"總共召開了13次的會議那也朝你的相關的這樣的一個法條那我們後續還會持續在召開這樣的一個會議那也會配合如果說未來召開公聽會也收集更多的意見來凝聚更大的所以現在目前開過13次會議之後認為這個單身女性又或者是女同志配偶有沒有影響到兒童的最佳利益要用一些法條或者是規範來保障這些兒童的潛力的問題"},{"start":8680.354,"end":8695.16,"text":"對,所以我覺得那應該是配套的部分嘛,不應該是用婚姻的狀態來評估兒童的最佳例。所以這部分我們還是很希望說能夠來評估相對比較沒有爭議的範圍,我們是不是應該來優先處理並且達到社會共識。這是我們在人工生殖法裡面希望能夠具體往前推進的部分。"},{"start":8696.345,"end":8711.39,"text":"這部分的話其實還是需要立法院的一個大家的共識啦。當然當然。就是說這個法是不是可以把它切成兩個階段。那這個需要我想委員們的一個共識才能夠做得到。那衛福部這邊"},{"start":8713.237,"end":8729.666,"text":"第一、現階段我們如果擬出來的法案我們是不會切兩個階段因為我們怕說外界誤以為說我們對於第二階段的代理運母我們是有什麼樣特定的立場的所以我們在設計這個法案的時候會把它通通包進來"},{"start":8730.686,"end":8745.523,"text":"那至於說立法院這邊決定是要分兩階段這個說是沒有比較沒有爭議的單身女性女同志配偶的這個部分的話衛福部也尊重這樣的方向要先上路我們就尊重了解好那接下來"},{"start":8745.723,"end":8746.504,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":8764.554,"end":8786.787,"text":"我認為作為主管機關應該要面對他們所提出來的人力不足、地心的結構、病戶比還有總量管制等等的問題一起來具體的來思考和回應。其中一個我們也看到的是民間團體多次的來針對醫院裡面普遍存在的跨科資源的狀況,也提出了許多的改善建議。所以今天首先想要請教一下這個跨科資源的部分有沒有一個比較具體推動的方向或是改善的方向?"},{"start":8788.189,"end":8811.105,"text":"這個部分的話我們會開始來朝你一個所謂的跨科資源的這個指引讓醫院能夠去遵守這預計呈現的時間或是說什麼時候會有這樣的指引嗎?我先跟部長這邊報告一下就是說依照我們現在看到的這些民團的問卷調查裡面顯示跨科資源可以理解有時候人類有需求必須要跨科資源大家也可以願意一起來共體實踐但是呢"},{"start":8811.465,"end":8834.658,"text":"但這些醫事人員被調離他自己原本的科別或單位到其他單位來做替補人力的情況之下就會擔心的是並沒有之前的教育信念又或者是並沒有辦法讓他們能夠充足的認知到不同科別所需要的協助是什麼所以並不是說他們反對跨科資源而是認為說跨科資源應該要給他們充足的教育信念而實際上以民團的調查結果也看到有九成以上的受訪人員認為"},{"start":8835.678,"end":8864.653,"text":"必須要有教育訓練但是有超過五成的人員表示實際上沒有教育訓練那同時也有八成的田打者認為他們去其他單位支援的時候會呈現出來因為包括環境的不熟悉因為科別的不熟悉而呈現出來可能表現比較不好又或者是工作意願而工作壓力比較大甚至是可能會增加了離職的意願所以我們希望剛剛指引有方向我覺得很好但是我們也很希望能夠具體的告訴他們指引的內容可能包含哪幾個面向以及指引什麼時候能夠出現"},{"start":8865.433,"end":8884.069,"text":"好,那我們在28號會召開這一個跟一些工會的聯合會啦那護理師的全聯會啦等等這些一起來做討論,28號。第一次會議?對,那還有當然包括醫院協會跟勞動部都會一起來。"},{"start":8885.39,"end":8911.456,"text":"那這一個方向上面其實它的需求是這樣子的有兩類的狀況第一個比方說那個兒科的照顧那從新生兒到兒童家務病房到兒科的病房這些因為第一大部分的醫院它的個案數不會多而且是那個床數也不多這時候你沒有齁把它做跨科的訓練其實它也不算跨科就是說"},{"start":8912.616,"end":8936.677,"text":"總和的一個訓練的話,到時候要調度就會非常困難。這是一個。第二個是經常會看到的是過年。過年因為有些病房會關掉,讓護理人員可以來休假。但是急診就會,那個病人就會很多。這個時候關掉病房的可能有一些就休假了,有一些可能變成要去支援急診。這個是比較常見的。"},{"start":8937.398,"end":8954.499,"text":"但我想其實史詩潔說並不是是這樣而已因為報告去年我們的台灣醫療工會聯合會就提出來這些病房的護理師有高達九成都有被要求跨課資源所以可能並不是集中在兒科或者是這些醫科如果太腐爛的話那的確會造成那個人員適應的不良"},{"start":8955.72,"end":8982.674,"text":"沒錯 所以這部分就是希望能夠具體了解問題和現狀之後能夠朝這個方式來做努力因為我們看到是如果當我們看到這樣子常態性的人力不足包括我們2022年的數據也呈現出來護理人員的總離職率是攀升到11.73而總空缺率是6.53這是創下了5年的新高所以大家很希望能夠盡快有這樣的規範因為如果是常態性的人力不足導致有一些低薪又或者是不合理的輪班以及跨科資源"},{"start":8983.214,"end":8983.895,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9007.512,"end":9029.717,"text":"第二個部分是針對做方式的跨科資源能夠清楚的告訴他們資源的時間的上限因為我覺得跨科對他們來說可能還有一個認同感以及專業能力能不能累積的問題所以他們很希望能夠有這兩個明確的指引放在我們的規範裡面是不是能夠朝這幾個方向來做努力對這就是我們要跟大家談的那這一個主要的方向就是這個"},{"start":9030.317,"end":9043.747,"text":"所以剛才提到12月底會有第4的會議那有沒有預計可能在明年的上半年就有機會能夠出現因為我想我們大家最擔心的就是研議研議再研議然後可能研議就好幾年明年上半年應該是可以的好 了解 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝下一位請張玉美張委員謝謝主席請衛福部部長有請薛部長"},{"start":9064.912,"end":9083.099,"text":"委員好部長好部長這幾天在檢驗人工生殖法相關的資料的時候我看到媒體報導的一段描述指出人工生殖法涉及的生物科技、女性主義、生命倫理的交纏"},{"start":9084.64,"end":9101.471,"text":"或許遠比DNA的雙股螺旋複雜得多了相當深刻地描述人工生殖法討論過程所面臨的困難但回首過去衛福部就在93年到現在分別在93年"},{"start":9103.012,"end":9104.253,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9130.69,"end":9146.284,"text":"則疑是否選舉前有倉促的決定。所以要請問國建署第一部是否有踏出把人工生殖法草案送到衛福部。請問。"},{"start":9149.771,"end":9161.201,"text":"我們這三年多就一直在討論那我們總共開了13次的專家相關的會議那你定了相關的草案那目前這個法案還在國建署"},{"start":9162.12,"end":9184.477,"text":"會不會還是說說而已選前又拿出來所以會不會說說又再沒有進行所以第一步對啊跟選舉沒有關係我們就一直在進行當中我說過開了13次了3年半開了13次對剛剛王婉玉委員就說不要一直開會而已啊沒有結果啊對不對這個內容恐怕不是那麼容易就能夠確認"},{"start":9186.46,"end":9202.231,"text":"所以有第一步齁?我強調的是第一步嘛?就是生殖法...因為現在那個...其實是國建署的版本還缺一塊就是那個未婚或單身女性的這一塊啦你說什麼單身..."},{"start":9204.592,"end":9233.675,"text":"單身或者是未婚女性的這一個部分的話因為我們有委託研究案在這個委託出去那這個報告還沒有回來了所以在這一個部分的話是會比較delay一點但是我們的草案其實可以一邊就來進行剛剛部長講到單身女性嘛那有沒有規劃如何保障避免女性身體成為工具而遭受到商業的剝削呢"},{"start":9235.11,"end":9255.15,"text":"這個大部分在提到這一個都是指的是代理運母,那這個的話如果要讓代理運母變成是一個選項的話那就必須要對剛剛委員提到這些要有很好的配套措施所以這一個部分的話當然規劃會更為複雜"},{"start":9257.746,"end":9278.914,"text":"對,所以部長你知道美國嘛美國加州這個人工生殖規範是很寬鬆的帶動了當地這個人工生殖產業的發展而且強進了卵子市場的需求那就有人力仲介會在台灣招募女性遠赴美國捐卵"},{"start":9279.614,"end":9306.048,"text":"但這樣做法不僅涉及違反美國入境法規美國他可能是觀光簽證違反法規簽證是不能去捐卵的那也違反了我國人工生殖法禁止居間仲介的規定事後這還可能遭遇健康風險所謂健康風險我們一直要去打排卵針可能負壓會增加"},{"start":9307.849,"end":9323.237,"text":"還有甚至可能遭受不屑商人的剝削報酬。這些赴美捐卵的這些案例都明目張膽的出現在社群網路中。請問國建署一事司分別有什麼查處的作為啊?"},{"start":9324.537,"end":9325.858,"text":"五、委員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案 案。׳"},{"start":9344.252,"end":9366.282,"text":"好,接著我剛剛提到代孕者權益的保護之外,接著部長討論目前面臨少子化的問題。目前衛福部提供一般不孕症的夫妻首先申請不孕症治療,就是私管嬰兒,最高補助10萬,再次申請最高補助是6萬。"},{"start":9367.703,"end":9387.804,"text":"不過對於已達適婚年齡但尚未準備懷孕﹑也就是未婚﹑或者是不準備懷孕的這些而先採取肚腩的女性﹑就缺乏了這個政策的協助。每年6000元到1萬元不等的冷凍保存費。"},{"start":9390.119,"end":9406.691,"text":"據我所知我住在桃園市桃園市已經實施然後新竹已經分別提供每人總計最高2.2萬桃園2.2萬為什麼呢是桃園第一年冷凍費用1萬第二年6000第三年6000那就2.2萬那新竹3.1萬凍卵補助台北呢就規劃"},{"start":9412.688,"end":9435.256,"text":"﹑立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文�"},{"start":9439.598,"end":9464.254,"text":"對,需要先凍卵對,去卵對,卵細胞會有影響但是其他的部分你看看像桃園新竹他補助的就三年的凍卵三年以後就沒有了一般第五年會自己去就自己去如果說以現在的規定的話自己去懷孕就好了"},{"start":9464.494,"end":9476.981,"text":"自己去取回來就8%啊,到第5年一般就動亂就...對,所以事實上他的利用率是非常低的。到第3年,他給他第3年就好。你補助這3年,讓他3年可以動亂,3年之後呢?"},{"start":9477.945,"end":9478.666,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9496.448,"end":9508.259,"text":"二、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．委員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":9509.903,"end":9536.979,"text":"最後呢我要請問的就是我們兒科的醫師招募這四年間從98%降低到七成所以呢很擔心將來重症兒童無一可醫啦那我要剛提醒國民黨在106年是曾將少子化這個對策納入前瞻基礎建設所以呢這個少子化不是一夕之間嘛但是一陣子嘛所以我請問你"},{"start":9538.199,"end":9562.581,"text":"過去6年之間呢,少子化的政策我們衛福部有成效嗎?少子化的政策主要在過去的話都一直是在處理的那對於托育托嬰的這個需求那我們讓他有一個高額的補助然後讓他這些年輕的大媽們無後顧之憂大概是這樣子"},{"start":9563.442,"end":9587.019,"text":"那至於說對於小兒科醫師的缺對這個是在最近的我們推出的一個優化兒童醫療照護計畫才去做這一方面的一些鼓勵那也我們的詳細的情形我們也會這個對外逐步的去去做說明那比方說我們分為核心醫院重點醫院核心醫院的話負責這個訓練新的兒"},{"start":9589.321,"end":9601.387,"text":"而科醫師他會有一方面對於這一個所謂的年輕醫師進入這一個研究醫師的部分會有一些補助另外的話也會補助他到國外去受訓"},{"start":9602.646,"end":9625.796,"text":"我覺得我建議政府呢面臨人力我們這個醫師人力問題有一個解決辦法啦那請問可不可以改變思維來重視服務的品質跟價值而不是讓醫師小兒科醫師迷失只有在服務量這樣就可以選擇我會更多的醫師來選擇小兒科不要用健保就是量嘛他沒有強調這個品質與價值我們小孩子這麼寶貝"},{"start":9628.917,"end":9646.989,"text":"是不是剛剛你11月1號成立了那個幾個啦然後幼兒專職醫師制度提升醫院兒童肌重診照護量能對不對這些都有那我強調的是是不是我們在這個小額科醫師重視品質來重視量比重視量更重要你覺得呢"},{"start":9648.082,"end":9664.73,"text":"對,這當然也是一個方向,就不是只有去重視量,而且兒科他為什麼會比較凋零下來那個諸因是減少,其實一個原因就是在健保論量計酬的這個制度之下的話,他的收入一定是不好。"},{"start":9665.47,"end":9681.155,"text":"議員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第7屆第"},{"start":9681.795,"end":9706.771,"text":"就說造成少子化的原因很多啦不是只有衛福部而已衛福部在生育呢照顧政治上的努力之外呢其實職場環境這跟勞動部有關啊然後職場環境有沒有非常友善啊社會條件住房政策啊有沒有買不起房子啊等等這些都需要更多跨部會的努力不是只有衛福部所以我覺得還是跨部會的合作對嗎是這樣子解決少子化問題是好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":9720.562,"end":9748.495,"text":"下一位吳新英委員謝謝有請謝部長嗨部長好本席從就任以來就對台灣的有永續的核心議題感為關心那想說其實這個部分是國人健康以及醫療體系的永續那近年來台灣的健康醫療上面的"},{"start":9748.955,"end":9750.876,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9771.303,"end":9799.615,"text":"對於補充保險性的可能性評估在長照的津貼,衛福部也在本席的要求下作為委員外的各國實施狀況報告。至於少子化的問題,衛福部也提前認同本席主張的要積極擴張公托以及給予解決區域性不均的問題。綜合來看的話,其實本席是對數位醫療跟人中生殖的"},{"start":9801.015,"end":9826.523,"text":"兩項呢也是因為今天為什麼我排這個人工生殖法的審查那不過在這個討論人工生殖法之前我想請問一下部長說本席想確認一下這個通訊診療辦法的進度因為在四個星期之前部長有直接說下週會公報可是這個大概是一個月的時間了那想請問一下就是這個部分"},{"start":9827.363,"end":9829.084,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9848.291,"end":9877.396,"text":"這個我倒不敢講多久不過大概在頂多是三個月內我們就可以處理啦三個月內因為我們可能還要再跟他們開協調會大概一兩次啦好我想跟部長強調就是說這次的修法有許多的慢性病跟行動不電的民眾尤其是長者都非常期待那台灣其實有700萬人喔都是固定是要有慢性病這個需求的那同時上次我在質詢的時候是說"},{"start":9877.996,"end":9879.036,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9905.182,"end":9906.163,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9934.205,"end":9935.486,"text":"提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":9950.361,"end":9976.442,"text":"這會,其實這四個部分我們大概都會做某種程度的一個設計第一個就是單身女性其實他應該講是說沒有沒有這一個婚姻關係的配偶的女性第二個就是女性的同志第三個是男性同志第四個就是"},{"start":9978.163,"end":9983.993,"text":"有婚姻關係但是他沒有能夠懷孕有"},{"start":9985.185,"end":9986.145,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10010.77,"end":10026.777,"text":"都贊成、都同意。威福部在這方面的話並沒有既定的立場。應該是說您剛剛也有提到就是說在別的委員的時候是意思是說各種面向你都會提出來然後要在凝聚社會的這個在每一個項目的這個"},{"start":10028.137,"end":10029.978,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10055.743,"end":10056.663,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10082.99,"end":10084.871,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10108.965,"end":10135.317,"text":"這個部分委員提到的是有關於這個代理孕母的制度並不是講的是其他的部分那代孕的部分的話子女最佳利益的評估跟審查這個是需要的第二個專業諮詢制度是需要的但是比較問題的是代孕者也就是那個孕母他的利益是要怎麼樣去保障那在委員這邊提到的是用契約"},{"start":10136.757,"end":10165.174,"text":"公證具要來保障這一個那法院的裁定程序去做補充那剛剛司法院也提到過其實要法院的裁定去做補充的話這個程序就會非常的麻煩但是最大的問題是在這個代孕契約的本身代孕契約雖然你經過公證但是他的問題點並不是說這個契約有效無效的問題而是他能不能強制執行的問題"},{"start":10166.615,"end":10185.643,"text":"這個才是最大的問題。好,謝謝部長。那接著就是說我想幫同志朋友來發聲,我很高興以本黨提出的這個放寬同性收養的限制修法,那今年5月順利通過了三讀,而且今年我也參加了這個多元同行的這個"},{"start":10187.163,"end":10188.245,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10203.004,"end":10203.664,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10229.348,"end":10245.483,"text":"在這部分我是不是請那個署長來回答一下?就很快速的回答一下好嗎?因為這個待運我剛提到了我們目前在草擬這段時間對象都還在裡面,包含藍藍都在裡面,但是還是要尋求到社會最大的共識。OK謝謝,然後其實這個因為國內沒有開放"},{"start":10249.942,"end":10253.283,"text":"議員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．提案號28974．"},{"start":10274.748,"end":10275.788,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10295.31,"end":10296.45,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10327.497,"end":10334.401,"text":"期待衛福部能讓社會大眾有滿意的修法草案。感謝部長這邊。謝謝。謝謝委員。謝謝。謝謝吳委員、部長。下一位黃秀芳委員。謝謝主席。我們請部長。"},{"start":10357.478,"end":10370.144,"text":"委員老部長好。部長,今天這個議題,其實我覺得目前是沒有願版。對,沒有願版。我想請教,就是說願版是什麼時候會出來?"},{"start":10372.224,"end":10394.956,"text":"這目前的話在國建署這邊的在研擬的版本除了中間除了那個單身女性的這一塊因為本來是要委託給外面做研究那現在研究案還在進行所以那一個部分的話條文還沒出來其他的部分大概條文都已經初步的條文都已經用連代理孕母也都出來了"},{"start":10396.417,"end":10412.772,"text":"所以我想請教就是說部長針對這種人工生殖法就是說我們修法的方向那比較沒有比較爭議比較小可能就是那個女性配偶跟那個單身女性的這個部分應該是比較沒有爭議"},{"start":10414.173,"end":10415.234,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10434.855,"end":10436.336,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10452.985,"end":10453.626,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10480.629,"end":10489.925,"text":"沒有錯,尤其是整個人工生殖法,我們現在如果說打算要再進一步開放的這個方向的話,"},{"start":10490.851,"end":10517.164,"text":"那代理孕母是一個比較不好處理的因為他涉及到倫理涉及到法律涉及到兒童的權益那他的兒童的這個法律上的地位兒童的照顧等等這些問題都有那其實也不是很好處理這中間配套的相關配套的設計不是那麼容易啦所以"},{"start":10518.385,"end":10521.848,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10543.609,"end":10544.61,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":10567.381,"end":10590.431,"text":"我舉個例子比如說我們現在對於這幾個面向的話要去處理的話比如說單身女性可能就需要開至少一次的公認會因為這裡面涉及到什麼樣叫做單身女性她可以來接受這個人工生殖第一個就是這個第二個就是說那這些所謂的單身女性她"},{"start":10591.567,"end":10592.227,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10620.418,"end":10621.158,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10637.005,"end":10637.385,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10653.094,"end":10654.095,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10682.69,"end":10703.378,"text":"對,好,那這個是我們希望這個未來要大家好好的去討論,短時間內,因為我想說到12月中可能就是要修會了,那在短時間內可能就是有它的困難,那我們希望說未來我們的這個這個院版出來之後我們可以在立法院在這邊可以再充分的去討論,好不好?"},{"start":10705.199,"end":10724.711,"text":"要開公聽會來擬具共識的話,跟院板出來,兩者不一定要有一定的先後關係。如果先開公聽會,給院板在修正的時候做一個參考也可以。或者要等院板出來,再召集公聽會也可以。"},{"start":10725.652,"end":10740.298,"text":"好,那接下來我想請教那個部長就是有關這個加熱菸從今年3月22號就是我們那個新制的菸害防治法通過那有明定就是禁止電子菸納管加熱菸"},{"start":10740.998,"end":10741.679,"text":"我請那署長回答"},{"start":10762.611,"end":10789.646,"text":"大概我們目前大概分了兩個部分總共有15位委員那分了四組小組那小組個別召開相關的審查因為四個重點那每個月大概都會開一次大會啦就是針對小組審查以後的能不能在大會取得共識按照這樣的一個方式在對阿我是想說齁其實現在市面上或者是有店面喔它又有實體店面喔就是它都已經在賣了我們會加強取締"},{"start":10793.217,"end":10810.758,"text":"我覺得你應該是要把這個健康風險評估審查應該趕快通過吧我想程序要完備啦那安全無疑我們當然就開放當然啦目前現在實體店面我現在要講的實體店面都有都已經在賣所以我覺得說"},{"start":10811.499,"end":10816.022,"text":"三、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":10837.538,"end":10856.394,"text":"就通過了然後另外一個你就覺得說這個是不能賣不能賣實際上他就是已經在賣了我想還是要做對國人健康為把關還是要比較謹慎的來審查是啊是啊我也同意這樣子啊對啊所以我覺得說目前這個問題就是存在那裡嘛"},{"start":10858.339,"end":10885.18,"text":"對阿好不好那另外就是說這個加熱菸他有那個載具就是那個APP會有這個資安的問題就是前陣子那個家庭醫學會他們就有特別提到新興菸品就是這個加熱菸的資安的疑慮那我看到就是說這個速發部他們有提出16項需求的資安檢驗的IoT項目並沒有包括這個新興菸品的載具那相對的就是說我"},{"start":10886.081,"end":10894.312,"text":"我不知道說我們衛福部跟這個抒發部既然有家庭醫學會都已經提出這樣的一個疑慮那你們是不是也要把這個訊息轉資給這個抒發部"},{"start":10898.922,"end":10913.209,"text":"我們是這樣子,我們現在是載具要送,連同那個天空檢測要送審。目前送審的載具裡面是沒有看到這個功能。如果有我們會跟蘇阿部跟經濟部來討論這個相關事宜。好,好,謝謝,謝謝。謝謝黃委員,下一位陳嘉華前委員。"},{"start":10927.855,"end":10930.177,"text":"謝謝主席,請部長,有請部長,有請薛部長。委員好。部長好。部長我要請教醫療事故預防及爭議處理法,我們執法跟相關的調解機制我們已經確定了嗎?是。確定了,那可不可以說明一下現在的,因為在"},{"start":10952.251,"end":10979.141,"text":"十一月吧十月初跟部長質詢確定之後要給本席辦公室但是一直都沒有得到這個部分因為一月一號就要開始實施啦那我們的執法規大概都已經那部長答應要給本席就是你們通過就要給本席好像到現在都沒拿到我回去就提供給那個委員那可以說明一下我們現在有平息嗎"},{"start":10980.583,"end":11008.508,"text":"有相關的那個就是在醫癒法施行之後我們針對後續的預防及爭議處理的調解制度我們現在是修訂的是怎麼樣的一個情況可不可以說明一下這在調解過程當中如果這一個有關於這個醫療的專業的部分的話是有平息的制度的"},{"start":11009.845,"end":11035.352,"text":"對 那有訂訂就是讓就是可依循的操作手冊或者是指引嗎 有沒有 有 有訂了 那可以給本席嘛今天就可以給嘛 好 謝謝 那另外針對今天的人工生殖法的修訂 那請問部長我們最困難的是什麼 為什麼我們院版演繹這麼久"},{"start":11036.916,"end":11056.105,"text":"到現在都沒有辦法去確定一個方向,也不該公平會。這個部分我跟委員報告,其實這裡面牽涉到的法律、倫理、各方的權益的保障等等,其實是蠻複雜的。"},{"start":11058.286,"end":11083.066,"text":"那而且時間過程上一次在比較正式的公聽會是在差不多十幾年前的時候有這樣所以這十幾年以來都沒有再開過公聽會嗎?沒有就主要是在部裡面的針對於這個法案的內容那去做這個部裡面的討論而已專家會議開過幾次會啊?十三次"},{"start":11086.168,"end":11115.368,"text":"十三次會議,所以還在研議嗎?所以爭議現在有化解多少了?大概現在比較大的爭議點還是在代理運母的這部分。但是我們現在的修法的方向是這樣,我們仍然會把代理運母相關的配套把它提出來,在我們的草案裡面會提出來。"},{"start":11115.788,"end":11144.726,"text":"所以已經有一個草案了嗎?我們已經有一個復案了嗎?帶領育母這邊?那個部分是有,有一個復案在那邊但是這整體的整體的這個法案的話還沒有完全因為像說那個女性單身的這一個部分要去接受人工生殖的這個部分的話那我們是委託一個研究計畫出去目前的他的成果還沒報告過來所以我們也在等"},{"start":11147.769,"end":11159.751,"text":"請問這幾年這兩年內開了幾次會?如果說十幾年來開了十幾次會平均一年開一次會那這兩年來開了三年內開了十三次會那這一年來開了幾次會?今年開了兩次"},{"start":11171.607,"end":11191.18,"text":"所以這樣算認真嗎?重視這個議題嗎?這個不是認不認真的問題,是不好處理的問題。那請問,就是世界上現在有幾個國家是有這樣的一個法律?要看在開放的哪一個部分,每一個部分都不太一樣。"},{"start":11193.229,"end":11194.149,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11208.022,"end":11209.763,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11229.778,"end":11257.654,"text":"如果這樣子我們努力下去預估衛福部多久可以把草案提出來?我們是希望在明年裡面就能夠把草案提出來不過我必須還是再度聲明我們把草案提出來並不表示說我們對每一個部分的話都是持著這個贊同的方向我們只是把這裡面相關的配套如果你要通過這一個那會有這些配套必須要處理然後由貴院來做"},{"start":11258.575,"end":11259.716,"text":"謝謝主席。我想要請我們薛部長。有請薛部長。"},{"start":11283.68,"end":11299.809,"text":"委員好。學部長好。今天不是要來緩解,要來處理這些事情。因為困難的事情,衛福部每一項事情都很困難。所以我們即便是困難的事情也要想辦法,然後也要找出途徑來解決。"},{"start":11302.25,"end":11312.896,"text":"已經討論了就是開了十三次會如果就是說其實重點有疑義的問題就是就只有幾項那要共同討論那其實其他不只幾項"},{"start":11314.761,"end":11336.079,"text":"我知道啦,就是很難出力的嘛可是你看到其實其他國家也是有明定法律的那甚至是就是像美國、英國有一些部分他們也是都是同意的嘛那那這個部分我們是不是應該要盡快的尋求共識喔畢竟就是不運這個部分已經成為就是現在就是"},{"start":11336.979,"end":11337.7,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11356.557,"end":11363.679,"text":"現在可以出來讓我們看看嗎?現在是初步啦,初步有一些專家給我們的意見,大概就有一些解決的方案是沒有啦,是對的啦。"},{"start":11379.544,"end":11403.765,"text":"但是這個如果依照立法的程序,我們還是需要經過我們的法規委員會再檢查一下這個文字。所以今天也沒辦法討論?今天沒辦法啦。沒結果?因為你行政都外企版本材?那就沒有了,比較倉促的時候我是覺得不宜啦,不宜所以今天就去處理啦。一定要當選舉了喔?"},{"start":11405.94,"end":11413.045,"text":"三、委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件不完結（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11435.88,"end":11436.601,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11455.773,"end":11470.946,"text":"你有提到就是說明年要確定編46.59億來提升我們的照護量能啦護理的照護量能那我在想說這46.59億是不是要跟著健保的點值來浮動還是專款專用"},{"start":11473.503,"end":11491.412,"text":"這個部分的話其實是一個專款因為他就是編在所謂的其他部門裡面那我們並不會隨著不是在一般總和裡面所以他不會隨著點子去去推動可是因為就是說目前你提高就是護理的量能可是你你是不是只給夜班啊"},{"start":11491.952,"end":11507.845,"text":"還是三班都有?跟委員報告齁大概是這個樣子第一個的話是一班急性病床的護理人員他的月班費大概佔26億但是因為護理人員或有"},{"start":11508.726,"end":11525.823,"text":"其他的病床、病房的部門還是有。他們也有在職業班的。所以我們會針對每家醫院來申請這一班急性病房的這一個部分我們多給50%,50%讓他去處理那一些其他的部門。"},{"start":11526.744,"end":11538.322,"text":"另外有一個基層的。基層如果他有這個調整護理人員的薪資,我們從他的健保加保的金額就可以看得出來。那這個部分的話會有6.59億。"},{"start":11540.76,"end":11566.191,"text":"對可是其實那個護理協會他們也有一直在提出你只提高夜間的那也會讓就是說其他的兩班因為夜間只有一班嘛其他兩班對不對然後其他的對就是說就是其他兩班會不會覺得說就是有就是差別待遇然後我們就說這也是一個複雜的問題啦因為這牽涉到就是會牽涉到排版的問題報告委員這個比較簡單"},{"start":11569.152,"end":11598.144,"text":"這也是會牽涉到排班的問題啊。因為第一次我們處理的這個夜班會是包括小夜跟大夜。那小夜跟大夜我們調查過,他的這一屆整個護理站的全部的護理人員的人力裡面會去包大夜或包小夜的,大概就各站82%。可是其實好像大家最想要解決的是護病比啊,是不是?護病比是另外一個issue,那我們現在也正在處理當中。"},{"start":11598.524,"end":11599.225,"text":"對我們正在努力當中。"},{"start":11616.285,"end":11640.646,"text":"我還有一個意見就是因為我們在彰化的偏鄉那其實我們都有發現就是偏鄉的男性比較好發的就是頭頸癌的病人那其實我們知道頭頸癌的病人他的自殺率是超過一般人的五倍那尤其他們都是在中低的收入的族群裡面那他們也是家中經濟"},{"start":11641.687,"end":11642.267,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11662.035,"end":11663.456,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11691.528,"end":11692.349,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11718.246,"end":11719.607,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11742.919,"end":11757.943,"text":"三、委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「人工生"},{"start":11767.496,"end":11789.435,"text":"跟委員報告,在委員提到的就是頭頸癌病人他的治療還有他的重建還有後面的復健。這些是一系列必須要去做的。大部分這些在做的話大概都限於一些醫學中心或者是有這類專科的醫院才有在做。"},{"start":11789.915,"end":11812.231,"text":"所以這個部分的話,我想在健保的支付的這個部分的話,我們會來請健保署這邊再來做一個重新的一個盤點。看看這個支付標準是不是需要再做。應該是不是支付的點數應該要除以它的公式,因為有些手術的確涉及比較多部分,尤其是在頭部的話。"},{"start":11812.551,"end":11813.912,"text":"三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":11825.185,"end":11825.865,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11857.064,"end":11859.946,"text":"謝謝下一位請范芸范委員謝謝主席有請部長有請學部長"},{"start":11874.212,"end":11890.006,"text":"委員好部長好我想也是要先針對人工生殖法的部分先請教部長因為我想今天剛剛很多委員都有提到無法生育的家庭他的求子心切的願望"},{"start":11890.566,"end":11892.087,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11916.887,"end":11938.044,"text":"第三種聲音是反對倉促立法但是支持與單身女性女同志配偶脫鉤處理那因為剛剛部長都有提到說未來一年會提出你們自己的版本讓立法院來討論那取得共識我想問部長你們提案的時候能不能把"},{"start":11938.524,"end":11939.484,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":11955.029,"end":11980.1,"text":"不涉及其他女性身體的單身女性跟女同志配偶的人工生殖其實遇到的議題是不大一樣的那如果能夠法案上分開處理的話那也許有機會讓爭議比較少在立法院達成共識的人工生殖的法案先行上路逐步開始那不知道部長就是覺得有沒有這個可能性"},{"start":11981.682,"end":11997.708,"text":"這個可能性不是掌握在衛福部是掌握在大院所以如果說委員各黨團有這樣的公式要透過處理的話我們都可以來做配合了解就是你們尊重我們立法院的處理方式"},{"start":11998.208,"end":11998.909,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":12020.808,"end":12035.841,"text":"那依照現在的人工生殖法女性要使用自己的冷凍軟體的時候必須要兩個前提一個必須結婚成為異性戀夫妻第二個就是這個前提達到之後還必須就是一年後未受孕那可是考慮凍卵的民眾"},{"start":12037.222,"end":12052.981,"text":"有八成的知道需要經過人工生殖但是卻有不到三成的人知道只有不孕夫妻才能進行人工生殖所以我的部分希望未來能夠不再排除單身女性使用人工生殖"},{"start":12053.662,"end":12081.522,"text":"另外目前因為女同志配偶可以合法結婚而且他們如果使用人工生殖不涉及到像代孕其他人的身體這樣一個複雜的問題其實世界各國有非常多人來台灣使用人工生殖的技術可是我們自己的同胞擁有公民權的合法的同志女同志伴侶卻只能遠赴海外花費超越百萬的費用甚至冒著高風險"},{"start":12082.523,"end":12100.775,"text":"還有人因此被詐騙到柬埔寨因為工作環境的惡劣流產根據同志家庭團體每年接到上千通的生養諮詢的電話有20歲到29歲的同志超過4成有意願生養所以我的版本"},{"start":12101.155,"end":12101.595,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12127.792,"end":12151.419,"text":"目前這些應該衛福部都沒有說既定的立場也沒有說支持或者不支持的那衛福部在這一次的修法的一個立場是把各種可能的要去處理的問題提出來還有這個問題處理的包括它的配套措施是什麼把它提出來"},{"start":12152.299,"end":12175.702,"text":"那像這一個所謂的委員所提到的那個包括是女同志的配偶那這些部分的話這都可以來進入討論的那因為他也會裡面有一些複雜的問題第一個他是已經依法那已經完成這一個登記的配偶"},{"start":12175.862,"end":12179.105,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12193.379,"end":12193.819,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":12224.766,"end":12246.492,"text":"謝謝下一位,請張綺翰,張委員。好,謝謝張委。那個我們也是請薛部長,謝謝。有請部長。委員好。誒,部長好齁。部長,把我們放出來齁。"},{"start":12261.489,"end":12264.112,"text":"提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12284.89,"end":12301.157,"text":"那坦白說啦 這個人工生殖 尤其是關於試管嬰兒這邊跟代理孕母當然這兩個是也有層次上的不一樣 我同意這樣的事情其實現在是這樣講 就是我也同意說這個代理孕母現在目前在國內這個"},{"start":12303.52,"end":12304.862,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12326.178,"end":12353.235,"text":"其實就是這個我們這表格齁就是代理運母這邊那當然現在目前我們所有的代理運母都不可以啦齁那現在是這樣講就是說如果說這一段如果說其實剛剛也有其他委員在談這件事就是說如果說這一段如果說比較困難那現在是這樣講就是往前面一點點就是現在包括這個人工生殖尤其是試管嬰兒這個地方齁我們也看到齁像現在除非就是你你就是合法的夫妻等等這些齁等等現在異性伴侶這個是沒有問題的"},{"start":12354.696,"end":12379.785,"text":"那其他的包括女女或者是男男或者單身男單身的男性或單身女性現在都碰到同樣的問題都不行所以就是說如果說我們今天還是往前再進一步因為我們很坦白說當然我們也很清楚現在的世界的潮流趨勢是不是一定要用所謂這個婚姻關係就是去框架了所有的這些或者是說就限制了所有其實也不太行"},{"start":12380.625,"end":12382.166,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12409.328,"end":12426.608,"text":"呃這個反正如果能夠這樣子先往前進一步我們是覺得說至少也而且我們也是整個婚姻這樣這個平權我們也已經這個都是很已經台灣就是假說這個在這個地方對於同志這個尊重的是幾乎是第一了嘛"},{"start":12427.628,"end":12428.088,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12447.557,"end":12448.398,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12471.494,"end":12500.035,"text":"所以我覺得說這個可能其實道理上沒有那麼複雜我倒是覺得說這個地方甚至都可以是不是直接就是應該更寬鬆的因為我們其他的有一些法令都已經都已經是解開的嘛那這個地方是不是有機會了這個這倒不是只有寬鬆不寬鬆的問題因為後面還是需要有一些配套啦那很可能我們在這邊也沒有辦法是好好去就很詳盡深入的去做討論啦"},{"start":12500.876,"end":12501.857,"text":"現在的方向是把所有的統統列出來。"},{"start":12520.369,"end":12537.246,"text":"三、委員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、司法及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、司法及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、司法及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、司法及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由、司法及法制委員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生�"},{"start":12539.668,"end":12540.909,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12560.643,"end":12563.204,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12589.34,"end":12602.655,"text":"對。這是一個選擇。很大的一個問題。那這個全世界其他國家兩種都有。對我知道。所以這個價值的選擇的部分的話是一個非常困難的。是。"},{"start":12603.796,"end":12604.317,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974"},{"start":12626.232,"end":12627.734,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12648.494,"end":12648.554,"text":"（提案號28974（"},{"start":12678.634,"end":12679.354,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":12706.536,"end":12713.218,"text":"林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵、陳佩宇陳佩宇、陳佩宇、陳佩宇下一位請林衛洲、林委員謝謝昭緯有請薛部長有請薛部長"},{"start":12732.253,"end":12748.272,"text":"委員好 薛部長今天我們是要來討論人工生殖法部分條文修正草案那我們都知道這個行政院或是說衛福部還沒有提出版本"},{"start":12749.406,"end":12768.766,"text":"所以我剛剛一直聽你在回答這些委員的答案都是說尊重大院的共識所以你沒什麼立場就是說到底要支持或是你們的方向是怎麼樣是行政院或衛福部還沒有凝聚出共識嗎?"},{"start":12770.077,"end":12794.055,"text":"以目前來講的話,我們是採取一個開放的態度。開放的態度是什麼意思?開放代理孕母的態度?不管是開放哪一個,都是一樣。跟委員報告,因為我過去在以前的時候,我曾經在一些法律的雜誌上面發表過相關的文章。"},{"start":12799.719,"end":12823.118,"text":"你的觀點是什麼?我的觀點已經是不重要,因為我現在在這個位置上面,我不能用我的觀點去取代社會的共識。所以我自己會很自制的不要讓我自己個人的觀點去影響到整個社會的判斷。我記得那個部長你也是醫師嘛,也是婦產科。"},{"start":12824.379,"end":12846.423,"text":"議事,所以對這方面應該很了解那個生態啦或是現在目前的狀況或是說碰到的一些問題對,這個等到我們逐條的時候會再來討論我們也希望是行政院或衛福部是有他的一個版本跟方向才不會白費工啦"},{"start":12847.922,"end":12872.339,"text":"等到你現在都說尊重大院然後大家有共識就OK到時候這個又不符合這個行政院或衛福部的這個政策方向然後到時候阻礙了這個修法的進度都有可能以往在修法的時候常常碰到這種狀況因為你們都不表態沒有版本那到時候我們有共識了結果反而是跟你們沒共識了"},{"start":12877.383,"end":12895.155,"text":"還有一段時間要走所以我們就慢慢來討論我先請教你因為我們中午要進行職能治療師法的這個保留條文的草野協商那你們的態度是怎麼樣是不是比照物理治療師的立法模式那衛福部"},{"start":12896.092,"end":12917.423,"text":"有沒有意見?這部分的話我們建議是比照物理治療師。好,所以這樣就會順利啦,因為物理治療師已經完成這個三讀了。我們希望職能治療師法的修法也可以順利的完成。好,再來我來請教,就是說我們現在要討論這個"},{"start":12922.085,"end":12935.534,"text":"法案的修法人工生殖法你認為這個法按照現在各黨團或是委員的版本提出來有沒有助於將來改善少子化的"},{"start":12937.76,"end":12961.514,"text":"我認為第一個修這個法的目的並不是要對少子化所以未來到底會對少子化的前景會有好的影響的話那我們目前也沒有做預估啦好OK了解好當然他有其他的政策目的啦比如說保障這個權利啦各方面好那"},{"start":12962.615,"end":12989.403,"text":"少子化現在是很嚴重啦齁那大家都一直想對策要如何防止少子化更惡化齁那目前我看了一些資料齁其實有時候這個所謂現在大部分都是在後端的補助齁比如說養托育啦養兒啦齁這個學錢教育啦等等齁提高各種補助但是看到相關的一些數字齁其實第一個"},{"start":12990.953,"end":12992.314,"text":"提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13014.523,"end":13035.922,"text":"主要是不婚的比例越來越高那不婚當然就很少可能這個非婚生子女那就很少了所以不婚才是重大在台灣州是少的超過三成以上這個已經在這個失婚年齡超過三成以上都不婚了"},{"start":13036.943,"end":13058.315,"text":"所以要解決這個少子化的問題前端恐怕更重要就是說要如何讓這個願意這個結婚然後當然結婚然後生子那今天我們來討論一下我們比較這個務實的來看待這已婚的這個夫婦他們要"},{"start":13062.028,"end":13078.408,"text":"养育小孩子要生儿育女,碰到这个不孕症的治疗的问题,那我们知道2021年开始有补助,大概补助就是说针对做试管婴儿每一次补助10万块,对不对?"},{"start":13079.889,"end":13101.047,"text":"非低收入戶,如果低收入戶有補助更多。然後未滿40歲可以補助到6次。40歲以上到44歲補助3次。希望這樣子讓已婚的,因為已婚其實很多人都願意生兒育女。"},{"start":13102.468,"end":13130.642,"text":"但是像我周邊其實蠻多人碰到這個不印證的這些問題所以這個補助你們政策2021年出來以後到現在現在是2023有檢討嗎?效益如何?其實效果應該算是不錯目前的話我們已經有這一個"},{"start":13132.303,"end":13143.066,"text":"一萬三千多對接受補助產下了一萬四千名的有一點成效現在也開始在檢討針對這個補助的次數"},{"start":13149.909,"end":13178.164,"text":"要不要提高了?因為這些人就是願意生你看這個是最有效的提高生育率最好因為他願意生但是他礙於這個經濟方面的影響各方面他很辛苦我剛剛在來之前問了我一個朋友說他就是有做這個試管嬰兒我說你做了幾次才成功他說他做第11次才成功"},{"start":13180.665,"end":13207.092,"text":"好像十次革命一樣那一次要花十幾萬然後一次大概療程大概要三個月三個月到半年很辛苦媽媽也很辛苦然後放進去的這個胚胎數通常都會比你這個補助的都還多啦因為怕失敗又重來再做一次所以能不能更放寬一點"},{"start":13208.564,"end":13235.478,"text":"你這個補助因為這些人是我覺得要提高生育率這些人是最有效率的因為他本身就有意願要生小孩你如果可以給他更多的誘因我覺得這個政策效益是會最高所以我的結論檢討你們這一次雖然你們2021年開始有這樣子的補助方案用書面給我報告做一個政策"},{"start":13237.182,"end":13237.882,"text":"三次不一定會成功（"},{"start":13255.709,"end":13256.469,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13276.583,"end":13285.028,"text":"所以胚胎數一次你看你這邊也規定很嚴喔說未滿36歲最多只能植入一個胚胎啦然後36歲未滿45歲最多只能植入兩個胚胎"},{"start":13291.493,"end":13294.035,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13319.006,"end":13320.066,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13338.792,"end":13356.976,"text":"那跟委員報告齁,其中有一點齁,就是有關於這一個,比如說40歲以上的,是不是要提高次數,或者是植入的,那是不是要多一點,這可能都比涉及的比較專業,那我們會跟相關的議事會去請教他們,然後再回給委員。"},{"start":13361.417,"end":13368.826,"text":"再把書面的這個說明齁跟這個報告提供給委員會跟本席謝謝OK謝謝謝謝林委員莊靜晨莊靜晨莊靜晨"},{"start":13380.022,"end":13390.966,"text":"湯惠珍、湯惠珍、湯惠珍羅明財、羅明財、羅明財林思敏、林思敏、林思敏、高嘉宇、高嘉宇、高嘉宇、邱承遠、邱承遠、邱承遠陳瑩有請陳偉然謝昭偉麻煩請下薛部長有請薛部長"},{"start":13409.301,"end":13409.321,"text":"委員韜"},{"start":13413.099,"end":13438.492,"text":"等下不好意思因為好像辦公室的助理還沒過來是這樣子那個部長你在9月8號受訪的時候有提到在後年呢將規劃65歲以上那健保第6類的這個頭保長者呢可以免付保費那其實你講的內容其實就是說第6類排富後的這個全額補助嘛"},{"start":13441.237,"end":13460.389,"text":"好,那如果依照這樣子的內容那包括這個低收入戶中低收入戶的這個保費呢其實我們也差不多都面面俱到了那對於這個經濟弱勢的族群大概都有照顧到啦那我想說這個部長應該很了解"},{"start":13461.169,"end":13462.49,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13480.811,"end":13481.291,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13499.565,"end":13500.506,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13521.508,"end":13538.268,"text":"對於這未來將研議規劃針對健保第6類對象的這個65歲以上長者牌付後的這個全額補助我是非常樂見與還有我也很支持部長在9月8號提到的這些內容所以呢"},{"start":13538.789,"end":13552.97,"text":"我也馬上跟這個衛福部呢有提到是說我希望這個政策呢在原住民適用的這個規定應該要降到55歲這個部分那我不曉得因為我之前的質詢不曉得部長有沒有衛福部有沒有針對這個在研議"},{"start":13556.801,"end":13579.028,"text":"目前我們正在盤,盤到底有多少的對象是可以在我們未來要擴大來做健保費補助的對象,這個部分我們正在盤查。至於委員剛剛提到的,原住民是不是從65可以放到55,是這個意思嗎?"},{"start":13581.157,"end":13606.29,"text":"對,就是說至少因為你們有在盤點表示有針對本席的這個質詢要求至少你們已經有啟動至少你要研議這個政策你一定要先盤點嘛所以我是肯定部長已經有初步的動作那因為這個我也了解需要一點時間所以截至目前為止本席還是肯定部長跟衛福部的作為好不好"},{"start":13606.51,"end":13607.151,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13622.871,"end":13649.64,"text":"我因為我在10月3號的時候我看到新北市政府一個新聞稿是就是有關於這個侯友宜的這個他原住民的政見號那這個政見呢其實就是說在他們希望他們在2023年的1月開始呢就是對於把就會開始補助這個原住民"},{"start":13650.88,"end":13666.827,"text":"五十五歲的這個健保的部分相當五十五歲那其實因為你們已經在研議我前面也都質詢也都質詢過了嗎而且更好玩的是在去年11月就是我們"},{"start":13668.027,"end":13685.26,"text":"議員吳秉叡等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會等24人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．事由．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會等24人擬具:「人工生殖"},{"start":13693.226,"end":13710.588,"text":"部長你這樣聽起來這樣整個看起來不就是在抄你們的也是在抄我的嗎?大概是這樣子啦好的政策我們也不主張有著作權啦所以要抄的話都是非常歡迎的"},{"start":13711.192,"end":13738.626,"text":"我真的非常佩服部長的智慧跟話術真的非常的有藝術非常的高超齁那這個本席真的遠遠不及齁我就覺得抄襲就是抄襲啦齁那部長就說欸好的政策齁欸聽我說一半我覺得很好聽欸好的政策不需要去主張著作權啊好的這個我也是改進齁好的政策不主張"},{"start":13739.787,"end":13740.027,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13763.308,"end":13779.647,"text":"新北市是走在以前鄭文燦市長主政的桃園市後面啦那如果新北市真的很在意原住民的這個政策的話第一個原住民的人口不會就這麼多的移到桃園去所以所以現在就是說"},{"start":13781.188,"end":13804.013,"text":"二零一八年齁這再順便講一下好玩的事情二零一八年我正在推動這個原住民假牙補助的時候齁那時候蘇貞昌院長也是當時他有在選新北市長那我們一起都共同在推這樣的一個政見齁結果當時的另外一個候選人也是我們侯友宜他就是說這個應該齁"},{"start":13806.654,"end":13808.515,"text":"提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13830.65,"end":13831.25,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13846.795,"end":13864.913,"text":"議員林楚茵等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會第10屆第8會期社會福利及法制委員會"},{"start":13869.898,"end":13886.566,"text":"我之前提的就是說有針對這個原住民這個駐聽器補助的部分現在你有承諾我一個月之後要回復那因為沒有人告訴我這個進度是怎樣其實已經過了一個多月快兩個月了"},{"start":13887.966,"end":13911.953,"text":"我再請陳教授這邊回覆給委員那這個部分的話在研議的結果是什麼樣子好好那因為時間的關係我就我就勉強接受你們會後來跟我們報告因為有進度才會有研議有進度才會有報告嘛那最後快速請教一下就是說部長那個文件站造福源新知的問題那我講到這個"},{"start":13914.694,"end":13915.815,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":13938.132,"end":13939.193,"text":"三年過去了,通貨膨脹的狀況其實是很明顯的。"},{"start":13957.051,"end":13974.809,"text":"那部長也有感受到就是說在軍公教軍公教在去年2022年好調新了4%那再來明年2024年的時候還要再加新再調4%但是我們文件站的造福員都沒有調整"},{"start":13975.47,"end":13976.271,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":14005.57,"end":14033.518,"text":"文件站造福源跟著加薪,絕對是合情合理然後合乎規定的。所以我今天特別提出來我不曉得部長的看法怎麼樣?這個部分的話基本上因為在文件站的這個部分的話是原民會他們提計畫那一年要用多少給衛福部這邊來申請長照基金的挹注。所以我們回去會跟"},{"start":14034.338,"end":14049.871,"text":"人民會這邊再來討論。如果這個要加薪的話,那可能整個的預算會增加多少?那請人民會再來提過來給我們,那我們再來審查。好,我謝謝部長沒有在這裡就一口回絕啦。"},{"start":14051.072,"end":14051.432,"text":"（提案號28974（提案號28974（提案號28974（"},{"start":14073.78,"end":14088.185,"text":"這個文件站造福源爭取加薪這件事情希望在這邊也謝謝部長沒有反對那我們就等原民會那也希望你們能夠大力支持是好謝謝好謝謝本日會議登記質詢委員已發言完畢委員楊耀"},{"start":14103.226,"end":14132.464,"text":"留建國林淑芬湯惠珍、莊靜晨所提的書面質詢已略入記錄刊登公報做以下決議說明及詢答完畢委員執行質詢及未答覆或需要補充的資料請相關機關有兩週之內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者無期從期所定"},{"start":14136.69,"end":14153.207,"text":"做一下決定,人工生殖法部分條文修正草案等8案令則其繼續審查。本次會議到此結束,現在散會。謝謝大家辛苦了。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}