{"error":false,"id":["153281"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153281,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153281","日期":"2024-05-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-29T12:11:47+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-29T12:21:31+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:44","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13312765b382e100205e243e47098157e4f6c09f7998a2d5a4c10a64debb1b02432b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:11:47 - 12:21:31","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":970,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時12分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我們現在針對了碳匯，自然碳匯方法學的一個審核，我們大概目前有6個方式，包括森林、竹林、改進農業土地管理或者生物炭在土壤的應用，紅樹林的植林跟海草的復育。這6個減量的方法，我想請教農業部，要把它落實在我們的農業中，你們有怎樣具體的方式嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，我們的方法學，大概經過我們內部很多的努力，現在已經提到環境部去了，環境部公告以後，就可以當作一個正式的資源減量的方法。但是在執行面來講，這是一個非常重要的關鍵，因為臺灣都是個體戶小農為主，小農要去處理相關減碳的作為，幾乎不可能啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：對。"],["陳部長駿季：因為它後面的一些成本會比較高一點，所以我們現在就是用集團栽培的方式，我會配套我們很多產業的調整，用集團栽培、用契作栽培，讓它變成一個規模比較大的方式。規模比較大的時候，在處理所有作為的時候可以有一致性，一致性過程裡面有兩個後面的策略，第一個，我們可以由農業部做協助，但是碳權歸農業部，然後農業部再進到交易平臺去處理，處理完的這些金額再回饋給農民。另外一個方式，就是由這些大的集團產區的經營主，他直接把相關的這些碳權，直接進到交易所去賣，或是跟企業結合，所以後面的方式，其實很重要的關鍵就是把個體戶變成集團栽培，那才有可能落實。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果是集團栽培的話，可以想像啦，會不會變成後來是要導入企業？為了企業的本身的ESG……"],["陳部長駿季：企業應該是一個經營主體啦……"],["蔡委員易餘：以它為主體，去跟農民變成一個契約關係，然後讓農民來做實作者……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：企業去取得了這樣一個碳匯的價值。"],["陳部長駿季：但是有一個很重要的，就是當我導入企業的時候，我不希望它是一個對價關係，我希望它是一個分潤的關係，因為它是一個經營主體，不能用純粹這種契作對價的關係去處理，這樣的話，會把我們的碳權變成被企業拿走了，農民沒有什麼受益。所以我們未來在跟企業合作……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然最後一定是要給農民受益嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，回饋，分潤的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，分潤嘛！但是企業之所以會想要投入，也一定是除了對它的企業形象之外，可能它取得了碳權，對它的外銷也有利嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以一定是這樣的加乘方式，你才有可能導入比較大規模這樣一個減碳的區域啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以在方法學還沒有完成以前，其實農業部最近一直在跟很多企業談合作，用ESG的觀念，讓它在企業的永續報告裡面可以呈現，讓更多企業瞭解了以後，他們的加入會更積極、更踴躍。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，以後由誰來負責盤整土地？"],["陳部長駿季：現在目前整個的執行面，農地的部分，大概是由農糧署，然後林業部分是林業署，但是整體的、整個的一個大對談平臺是在我們的永續司。"],["蔡委員易餘：永續司？他們來做土地的一個平臺？"],["陳部長駿季：對，然後後續再對接到不同的產業面。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，現在聯合國清潔發展機制（CDM），他們目前承認的碳匯，他們認為可以產生碳匯的部分，只承認是在新栽植的林地……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：但目前臺灣很多是既有的啊，既有的要怎麼把它轉成未來是有碳匯價值的一個林地呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個分為兩個部分，針對現在CDM，它真的是只承認新植林的部分，但是後續的這些方法學出來了以後，我們會經過相關跟國際規範做一個有效的接軌，因為有些國家不一定是在處理這個區塊的，他們還是以新植林為主。但是相對的，林業部分的撫育，其實它也是一個非常重要的碳，還有森林的經營，另外一個更重要就是……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我舉一個比較極端的例子啦，因為我們現在有很多平地造林，會不會有人為了要有碳匯，然後他就把平地造林的都先砍光，先砍光然後過兩年後再重新來造竹林。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們的碳匯要看那個基線啦，現在有的都不算了，平地造林本身新植的平地造林沒問題……"],["蔡委員易餘：那我改啊！如果我改呢？我本來造植的林……"],["陳部長駿季：他可以做撫育。"],["蔡委員易餘：可能本來二氧化碳固碳的效果比較差，我把它改成竹林，竹林的固碳效果好啊！"],["陳部長駿季：這樣會重新計算它的一個碳匯的數量。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，所以就有可能會發生……"],["陳部長駿季：對，原來的樹木……"],["蔡委員易餘：原來的樹種被砍掉，然後把它換成新的樹種嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：等於說重新另外一個cycle，重新計算啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：對，就另外計算嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我再請教一下，比方說我們嘉義鹽田地最多了，我們那邊都海口，都鹽田地，如果有這麼多的鹽田地，未來有沒有可能變成一個海藻或者是紅樹林復育的一個基地？"],["陳部長駿季：紅樹林是可以去處理一些生態棲地的部分，海草床的部分可能要看區位，因為海草床不是在海邊種海草就結束了，要讓它能夠很快速的生長。我們現在是以澎湖地區為主，很多廢棄的漁港，我們可以在那邊處理，海草床每一公頃的固碳量可以有12到14噸，它不亞於一棵樹喔，一棵樹可能是8到10而已。所以這個部分，我想我們會積極的，然後也會去評估這個地區有沒有適合去做藍碳的部分，如果說找到適當的地方……"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上海藻是一個很好的一個固碳的機制，而且我們有這麼多鹽田地，事實上臺灣的鹽田地有一個比較麻煩，就是在裡面既生的海藻、既有的海藻幾乎都是不利於其他海藻生長。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：它的名字叫做貝克氏鹽草，有這樣的一個物種存在，所以我們要去做可以固碳的海藻床難度就是很高。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們有可能在技術上去做排除，然後把它轉換成可以固碳的海藻嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個部分我會請我們的水試所這邊更積極的去處理，如果說有一個素地那相對單純，但如果原來有一些相關的這些海草的時候，它的競合作用怎麼樣去移除，可能有一些技術上的一個問題要克服。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我覺得臺灣你要找素地都很難啦，因為它都有既有的生態啊！所以你在已經有既有生態的地方，要找到大片又符合的，一定會需要排除掉一些其他因素的存在，你看我現在列舉的，從嘉義甚至到了臺南，就是東石、布袋、鹽水、將軍那邊都是鹽田地，這些鹽田地都是早期我們的祖先在這裡曬鹽的地方。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果我們可以用海藻的復育創造價值，然後又可以讓過去的鹽工，現在有能去做固碳的，他們可以跟剛剛媒合的企業來做這一塊，讓他們又有一個工作，我覺得這個是可以讓整個鹽田地的價值提升起來。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我會開一個專案計畫，就是由水試所跟相關的這些學界共同去評估一下，有沒有辦法把這些鹽草……"],["蔡委員易餘：我知道這可能有難度啦，因為我之前跟人研究過，我們這裡已經有一些不利於海藻生長的因素存在……"],["陳部長駿季：對，怎麼樣去改善它的環境。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，有沒有辦法改善嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：這個要去做一個專案的評估來處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：好啊，我相信以現在的科學技術一定是有辦法突破，可是它也許要花一些預算……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會來努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們導入企業促成這一件事情，讓這一些荒廢已久的鹽田地可以發揮它的價值，這樣好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解，我們會努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請伍麗華委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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