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劉千平"},{"start":2666.737,"end":2685.141,"text":"今天公聽會有一些程序我先跟大家報告首先我們會先請部會做簡短的報告之後再請學者專家發言以初期簽到的順序為原則陳老師您還是要堅持您要最後一位嗎"},{"start":2686.301,"end":2692.829,"text":"每位發言時間8分鐘本月委員要發言就要到主席台登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間5分鐘最後再由與會的接官代表回應說明"},{"start":2708.165,"end":2720.87,"text":"發言台陣前方的燈號是倒數計時有沒有看到那個燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲你聽到按鈴一聲的時候表示說你還有一分鐘發言時間結束就會按鈴兩聲"},{"start":2726.692,"end":2729.013,"text":"徐蕾熙徐蕾熙徐蕾熙"},{"start":2765.458,"end":2784.492,"text":"各位委員、各位女士、先生今天奉邀列席貴人會來召開為落實新住民權益保障探討通譯人才培訓與認證制度的公聽會本部就討論提綱狩獵議題"},{"start":2787.335,"end":2797.99,"text":"我們先分別說明無下就交給各位委員各位女士先生如果有寶貴的意見提出來供本部來參考"},{"start":2801.437,"end":2818.793,"text":"本部的意見就目前討論通譯制度的運作尚無困難之處本部的通譯制度是依照檢察機關辦理刑事案件使用通譯運行注意事項"},{"start":2820.775,"end":2842.73,"text":"以及檢察機關通譯的倫理規範還有高檢署及其檢察分署建置特約通譯名冊及議會禮會報酬知己的一個要點來辦理臺高檢跟各分署都依照特約通譯知己的要點來建置特約通譯的名冊"},{"start":2844.191,"end":2865.051,"text":"也依照它的訴訟轄區各自招聘特業的通譯人員並辦理後續訓練、評核依目前所聘任的特業通譯人員包含外語、鎖語、原住民語等通譯人才以兩年為一起來招聘"},{"start":2866.249,"end":2876.904,"text":"目前徵嫌名冊建制培訓、汰換等制度運作上並沒有困難也持續就特約通譯及各種語言列別加以擴充來符合實際需求"},{"start":2879.164,"end":2904.341,"text":"本部最有通譯政策的具體積極作為依照時序在今年的3月21日就召開了延伸精進通譯制度的諮詢會議邀請到跟司法通譯業務相關的機關實務上會有經驗的資深通譯跟學者來參加就通譯教育的訓練通譯服務之"},{"start":2907.714,"end":2920.498,"text":"毛主席要念快一點還是還是重點念一念一下基本上我們行政單位就三分鐘就重點念一念一下重點說一下好了你發現我們訪問過得還蠻長的好那我重點因為我看時間上大概也不夠那麼就實際上3月21號有開了這個諮詢會議那麼就召集相關的這個專家學者來與會了"},{"start":2933.762,"end":2940.648,"text":"最主要作為監禁本部研議通譯制度的重要參考其實在同年4月13日我們內部也做了一個討論這個就是初步達成的一個結論"},{"start":2948.855,"end":2950.558,"text":"本部就教育訓練的部分在6月27號同年"},{"start":2964.417,"end":2964.557,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2992.8,"end":3019.509,"text":"司法通譯的服務履歷建制涉及其實不是只有本部本部只是其中之一那麼這裡有關相關政策方向的擬定其實這個不是本部所主導的那麼它的本部就以這些相關的一些建制以建立較常使用的這些有關於使用通譯傳譯的一些反應表那麼這中間包括多國的一個語言包括八國語言的語譯本"},{"start":3020.789,"end":3029.396,"text":"在同年8月30日有將這些語譯本送給各機關來去參討依照這個知情要點的14點也在使用這些案件開庭之後提供該意見反映表給各個相關參與的包括檢察官、被告、一些相關人員也是包括律師由他們就以這個使用的反應來回收讓我們知道我們在研擬招聘通譯的同時要注意一些哪些事項"},{"start":3049.431,"end":3070.476,"text":"還有有關於通譯服務去落實的機關部門現行的通譯大概分為司法通譯跟公共事務的通譯跟外語的諮詢三類本部負責人司法的通譯其他就由各部會來負責在有關討論提綱2的部分是不是要進一個跨院級的通譯制度來整合"},{"start":3076.657,"end":3087.227,"text":"有關本部的意見就是說這個政策是涉及各機關的一個並且我們在行政院的新住民事務協調會13週會議也有決定有內政部來邀請相關機關盤點並綜合各項具體的建議大概要2到3年的一個計畫"},{"start":3094.954,"end":3105.86,"text":"內政部剛剛我們主席也有提示到他們在8月2號也有一個這個所謂的事辦的計畫事實上行政院在同年921也邀請本部跟相關的機關來召開會議這個部分內政部已經積極在研擬就相關部會的意見在修正當中有關立法規範專責通譯的機構來整合跨業及通譯的制度"},{"start":3121.249,"end":3148.614,"text":"事實上我們剛剛如前所述這個是涉及到通譯政策所以我們本部尊重貴院會跟議會專家學者的一個相關寶貴的意見最後一個是不是有成立這個專責通譯機構那麼本部認為如果有必要成立專責機構當然這個要涵蓋到行政機關行政法人或輔導民間成立通譯專業協會那麼本部尊重議會的專家學者及相關譴責機關的意見謝謝大家"},{"start":3156.232,"end":3159.354,"text":"主席各與會機關大家好移民署針對這個通譯服務進行簡介那個簡報沒有簡報"},{"start":3185.196,"end":3185.436,"text":"剪報剪報剪報剪報剪報"},{"start":3204.677,"end":3204.818,"text":"通譯人員資料庫"},{"start":3218.069,"end":3218.089,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3240.811,"end":3245.154,"text":"外來人士來臺的生活資訊主要是針對1990這支專線原本他的0800-024-111因為太長不易記憶所以外僑也建議我們要各國的商會都建議我們修正所以我們也花了一筆錢"},{"start":3258.163,"end":3258.323,"text":"中英日24小時"},{"start":3272.828,"end":3278.291,"text":"在移民輔導通譯人員的部分本署在全國各地25個服務站都設有移民輔導的通譯人員這些通譯人員原則上每天都會有不同語言的排班也會公告在各服務站的資訊網主要是協助這些出來乍到的新住民來台之後他們可能需要來申請資料或者是洽詢一些服務所以他們就是在現場提供填寫以及輔導"},{"start":3298.161,"end":3298.801,"text":"一百一十年到一百一十二年來到了五十二案"},{"start":3323.551,"end":3326.994,"text":"本屬在今年跟明年都將進行兩階段的詞彙資料庫的建立,這個詞彙資料庫首先針對越南語跟印語較多人使用的語言別,我們目標是各1000,我們希望透過這個基礎發展出來之後再擴及到其他的語言別"},{"start":3345.752,"end":3356.277,"text":"最後是通譯制度的精進部分行政院已經有交易本署要在今年已經提報了一個事辦計畫這個通譯制度事辦計畫包括各語言別還有包括各項的參訓人員的資格還有他們的費用的部分我們也都做了一些調整的一些規劃跟設計這個計畫抱怨是行政院核定之後就可以實施以上"},{"start":3378.434,"end":3383.498,"text":"謝謝黃瑜組長接下來我們邀請內政部警政署李希和副署長報告"},{"start":3396.92,"end":3412.555,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士 先生 大家早本市警舊警察機關通譯的招募培訓檢測驗及應用情形作檢調報告報告如下 進行指教第一 建立通譯人才庫"},{"start":3414.013,"end":3427.035,"text":"為保障新住民及外籍人士權益並滿足嚴謹受理社會案件使用通譯的需求本署從106年起及輔導各直轄市縣市政府、警察局辦理"},{"start":3428.356,"end":3445.114,"text":"通譯獎席賬戶人才到今年10月底至警察機關列冊通譯的人才計有1525人共25種議員其中東南亞以細人才佔8成5以上職員充足第二 監禁培訓測驗"},{"start":3446.596,"end":3457.966,"text":"建立常見的議員人才已有飽和情形本署參區澳洲國議員認證測驗訂定講習計畫並由各警察機關實施合比式測驗以擇優選才今年共有913人來參加講習710人通過測驗合格比例為77.77%第三建制演技體傳譯機制"},{"start":3472.679,"end":3500.853,"text":"考量偏鄉或漢建以來案件原檢較然顯認通譯及時到場本屬於參與歐盟行事司法機關的機制定班警察機關涉案案件使用遠距離傳譯作為程序原檢依然得應用視訊設備及與通譯連線第四落實案件的審核為確保涉案案件處理品質及保障通譯權益"},{"start":3502.537,"end":3530.019,"text":"本時規定各警察機關應逐案審核通譯案件並案內呈報本時合乎及電話抽訪迄今通譯都表示以嚴謹配合良好並能如期收到通譯費用第五充實通譯預算警察機關通譯費標準是依照勞動部所訂定地方政府辦理非營利組織陪同外國人接受新住民要點辦理"},{"start":3531.178,"end":3546.165,"text":"今年度勞動部補助的通緯費用及各警察機關執行備內的預算堅實充足且明年亦以寬內預算預估經費無疑以上報告敬請各位委員先進事務指教謝謝謝謝副署長接下來是勞動部專門委員王 邀請黃偉智專門委員報告"},{"start":3560.731,"end":3577.038,"text":"好各位委員各位專家學員大家好那勞動部這邊請就就是移工先行通譯服務困境還有就是因應作為檢要報告如下進行指教好那有關外國人就是移工在台工作期間的通譯服務的制度目前有"},{"start":3577.458,"end":3593.951,"text":"大約6項的部分那我這邊請要做一個說明那第一個就是在我們各地方政府22個地方政府總共有配置了130名的雙語服務人員提供這個工作諮詢或是正義相關的諮詢申訴服務那另外也有協助警政跟移民單位做相關的協助"},{"start":3595.172,"end":3601.76,"text":"移工機場服務站有66名雙移服務人員提供雙移法令諮詢、出國申訴等協助在航廈內也有協助航警局、國軍事務大隊、機關署等協助在今年都有成立移工一戰時的服務中心"},{"start":3615.896,"end":3640.906,"text":"有配置了80名的雙語服務人員那這邊有提供生活的管理、課程輔導、法律宣導等等相關的協助另外就是1955勞工諮詢申訴專線這邊有提供了24小時全年無休的一個線上的三方通譯協助那這邊人員配置了49人那另外就是我們的非營利組織陪同外國人接受詢問的這個部分有協助外國人遭受人身侵害、職業災害相關的一些詢問的協助"},{"start":3642.186,"end":3665.399,"text":"另外在目前的救護法有規定中介機構也要聘僱一定的雙語人員提供外國人相關的一個協助目前的一個困境跟經濟作為大概有四點第一個就是通譯培訓的資格要件的部分以目前我們的陪同的要點是沒有規範華語文的一個規範這個部分可能會發生就是語域不清或是不精準一些相關的一些誤解"},{"start":3666.039,"end":3692.208,"text":"那我們這個部分會去配合就是移民署剛剛提到會訂定的所謂通譯制度精進事辦計畫的草案的部分那我們會在華語文的部分去訂定相關的一個資格要件那第一個就是通譯培訓的課程的部分那目前是在我們的規定是沒有去規範通譯培訓的課程那後續也會配合這個移民署的精進事辦的計畫去規劃相關的一個就業服務的一個課程那另外在通譯費用一直到今年"},{"start":3692.948,"end":3710.985,"text":"106年到現在都沒有做調整那這個部分我們會配合去做一個調整那另外在雙語詞彙的一個部分那目前就是因為雙語通譯人員使用的詞彙不一致那也可能會導致在專有名詞的部分會在讓外國人理解上面會有一些混淆或誤解"},{"start":3711.665,"end":3736.674,"text":"後續我們會去盤點相關的一個詞彙去建置多國語的一個詞彙去納入國家文德樂詞網那勞動部後續還是會針對健全外國人通譯的一個服務的一個部分那去強化我們的一個培訓的一個要件培訓的課程我們的通譯的費用還有雙語的詞彙去落實保障通譯服務使用者跟外國人的權益那以上報告敬請各位委員先進指教謝謝"},{"start":3744.316,"end":3749.561,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝勞動部再來是衛福部醫事司李念慈檢證計政的報告"},{"start":3756.823,"end":3777.828,"text":"主席還有各位與會關心今天這個通會議題的這個與會貴賓大家好那衛生福利部就今天的這三個議題來做一個綜合的說明那首先就先說明一下因為衛生這個社會福利與醫療的部分最主要就是因為它有涉及到專有名詞特別是它一些專業名詞的部分"},{"start":3778.328,"end":3778.468,"text":"董事長"},{"start":3793.707,"end":3793.767,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3821.693,"end":3821.913,"text":"立法院第12會議"},{"start":3851.853,"end":3852.153,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會議"},{"start":3868.905,"end":3893.459,"text":"國際醫療,因為衛生福利部在推動國際醫療也是非常多年了,那需要蠻多的也是需要一些翻譯的人員來進來,因此部裡面也有針對這樣子的,特別是在整個外國的人來台就醫的一個在越南跟印尼的這個人的比例上面有來去特別做這個"},{"start":3894.602,"end":3896.003,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":3912.799,"end":3913.54,"text":"國內立法院統一專責機構及其統一制度如何建立"},{"start":3934.235,"end":3935.596,"text":"司法院司法行政廳專門委員羅敏榮"},{"start":3967.462,"end":3989.258,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好那司法院報告關於議題一的部分呢司法院目前因應法庭傳譯的需要從95年開始是採行特約通譯制度那目前呢是有21種語言類別263名的特約通譯備選人公法院在審理案件的時候可以選定合適的通譯來進行傳譯"},{"start":3990.859,"end":4016.3,"text":"那面臨的問題就是近年來呢東南亞語系的法庭傳譯需求增加司法院已經有函請我們的所屬法院市轄區內實際傳譯的需求廣納各種優秀通譯人才那只是目前面臨的是東南亞語系的檢定或認證問題是希望說未來有權責機關可以建立還有推廣東南亞語系的語言檢定或者是認證機制來提升傳譯品質"},{"start":4019.763,"end":4041.298,"text":"司法院進進通譯制度的相關做法請大家可以參閱書面資料我們包括在法規、教育訓練、行政措施以及監督等各方面都有一些做法這邊可能特別要提出來說明的是在會議資料的第4頁有提到說報酬的部分每日500元其實這個是日費的部分"},{"start":4042.478,"end":4064.546,"text":"法院的通譯除了可以領到日費之外每次的傳譯還可以領到500元到7500元不等的報酬另外還有旅費那在教育訓練的部分呢也除了這個22小時就是會議資料第4頁所寫的22小時之外他還有續聘的這個教育訓練那每年我們的法官學院也會舉辦"},{"start":4066.246,"end":4088.853,"text":"通譯的相關課程來充實他們職務上所需要的知識還有傳譯智能在需要通譯服務的部門單位如果我們從國家語言發展法或者是原住民族語言發展法來看其實各部門都有可能會遇到要使用通譯的情況另外在個別領域的部分以司法院來講"},{"start":4089.633,"end":4089.653,"text":"提綱2、3"},{"start":4105.888,"end":4133.816,"text":"因為法院通譯人員他需要具備的專業能力其實包括語言能力傳譯能力還有法律知識等等那以法律知識而言司法院應該足以提供法庭傳譯所需要的法律知識還有教育訓練可是就這個語言能力還有傳譯能力的養成這個似乎是各個機關通譯人員所需要具備的共同能力那這個有賴國內語言翻譯人才的教育培養訓練而且建立這個認證制度"},{"start":4136.997,"end":4156.043,"text":"政府機關要統整建立跨機關通譯制度的意見也有一些國內外相關文獻的研究司法院樂見尊重通譯制度更趨完善提升法庭傳譯品質健全法院通譯制度維護司法人權"},{"start":4160.897,"end":4163.419,"text":"第一位我們邀請的是南洋臺灣姊妹會紅滿之理事長"},{"start":4192.274,"end":4193.335,"text":"我們現在發現在臺灣醫療的部分"},{"start":4215.655,"end":4215.675,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4244.855,"end":4254.517,"text":"在醫療上面的一個通譯沒有完善的一個問題那第二個就是我們發現雖然我們現在說到處都有在培訓通譯然後都有通譯的一些那個人員在然後有很多的那個通譯的那個名額數量但是很多都是隨便就是培訓"},{"start":4268.781,"end":4268.901,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4293.69,"end":4313.786,"text":"那像我們聽到的是說有一些姐妹是被在資料庫裡面有名字有資料但是是被以英文的字母ABCD去排名去排然後去抽所以大部分比較多的是能出去翻譯"},{"start":4314.727,"end":4320.611,"text":"有些姐妹放了很多年都沒有被抽到那這個也是一個我們如何去把這個通譯去幫大家做排通譯的這個系統的一個問題那還有就是我們聽到說有些姐妹啊就是如果常去警察局或者去哪裡通譯然後還可以幫警察"},{"start":4341.723,"end":4341.743,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4367.105,"end":4369.026,"text":"最嚴重的一個問題是全部台灣聽起來很多通譯但是通譯姐妹都被大家洗腦當成說你做這個通譯你來通譯你就是幫助同鄉啊你當志工的因為什麼我為什麼會這樣講因為那個"},{"start":4387.313,"end":4387.333,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4411.507,"end":4411.667,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4433.661,"end":4433.901,"text":"公聽會議委員：完整會議委員：完整會議委員："},{"start":4451.459,"end":4451.599,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4470.217,"end":4470.297,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4485.726,"end":4485.986,"text":"新南向政策"},{"start":4512.591,"end":4512.611,"text":"委員長"},{"start":4527.679,"end":4554.086,"text":"成立了MET專門培訓醫療的人員去服務東南亞來台灣一些有錢人來台灣看病的這種的類似這種那我們相信應該會比較對醫療比較專業那我們在想說是不是這個部分可以結合也是讓我們國內的移民移工可以一起沿用這個通譯"},{"start":4555.226,"end":4558.607,"text":"臺灣外籍工作者發展協會社團法人臺灣司法同意協會創辦人陳韻平發言"},{"start":4593.047,"end":4613.699,"text":"主席還有各位列座的各主管機關台灣司法通譯協會創辦人陳一平第一次發言等一下我發言比較激烈不是針對各位只是針對制度請大家見諒我這邊要跟大家報告的就是我參加這種公聽會已經是第三次"},{"start":4614.775,"end":4629.507,"text":"然後從第一次開始到現在好像也沒有什麼漲進反正都是這樣子而已我不知道我今天是不是來狗吠火車這樣吠一吠回去然後又沒有得到什麼改善但是我對這次的公聽會寄很大的期望"},{"start":4630.268,"end":4654.035,"text":"我們希望能夠得到一些具體的結論首先我們先要證明一下大家都把那個通譯搞成司法通譯了通譯就是通譯,通譯就不是司法通譯請大家不要亂用司法通譯是用在司法訴訟上除了司法訴訟之外,請不要亂用通譯這兩個字你們可以用翻譯,你們可以用口譯但是不要用司法通譯,這是證明"},{"start":4656.355,"end":4675.839,"text":"本次會議有三個議題,我自己把它改成五個question大家可以參與一些資料我這邊是司法通譯,所以我只對司法通譯做發言其他有關整體的社區口譯、整體的面向還是請陳志偉老師來做結論會比較恰當因為數位有專攻"},{"start":4681.434,"end":4706.514,"text":"首先我們論及到司法通譯制度的面向我們那個字面的部分請大家參閱因為我上課我也從來不照那個課綱講大家都是學法律的齁大家看一下那個刑事訴訟法第三條當事人是什麼當事人是檢察官、質素人及被告想請問一下"},{"start":4707.871,"end":4730.888,"text":"檢察官出庭的時候同意被告,自己在同意嗎?沒有吧?不會吧?應該不會吧?就基於刑事訴訟法檢察官、自訴人及被告大家都是當事人,你們有什麼理由自己去建資料庫?你們有什麼資格?你們不配"},{"start":4732.544,"end":4755.512,"text":"這是我要說的而且這違反了兩權公約的基本精神那我看大家也是都如火如荼的在準備了很多有關於通譯的人才資料庫的培訓很抱歉這個在99年的時候我是跟南洋姊妹會還有一堆夥伴不知道殷導有沒有去有齁 對對對"},{"start":4757.406,"end":4784.337,"text":"那時候是我們去監察院檢舉各部門根本沒有準備司法通譯的備用名冊我們當初的用意不是叫各黨委自己準備通譯我們當時的用意是說政府應該準備通譯這也是兩權公約第14條的精神政府應該為這些語言不通的人準備通譯不是叫你們自己去準備通譯而且"},{"start":4785.515,"end":4809.511,"text":"在刑事訴訟法這個精神因為我們現在刑事訴訟法是以改良式當事人進行主義都是以攻擊跟防守武器要公平如果說防守那方武器不公平的話對於語言不通當事人來說他就是遭受到很大的不平等也沒有辦法救濟因為司法通譯永遠是公部門準備的"},{"start":4816.876,"end":4842.712,"text":"說當初建置他們的同意的人才資料庫的這個單位我舉個例子來說,我不是針對警政署我舉個例子來說,中正義分局幾年前有一個司法同意李前光李前光他就很積極的為我們的警察單位幫他問案,甚至問那個筆錄都非常不像樣那這個是經過桃園仲介公會檢舉,後來去"},{"start":4844.588,"end":4870.45,"text":"立檢署去法院才釣出這個袋子才知道說原來他翻譯的時候都亂翻翻到後來結果他出庭被告了出庭才知道說原來他不懂中文我天啊我們警察局怎麼會招不懂中文的人去當同意他看不懂他不是不懂他聽得懂他看不懂那他怎麼做示意那我們問題一大堆那後來後來我才跟這個桃園"},{"start":4871.531,"end":4884.608,"text":"桃園仲介工會裡面的總幹事我們用Google我們沒有你們的政府公器我們用Google查了一下我才知道他是有前科的人那個洗錢的"},{"start":4885.336,"end":4913.668,"text":"我用Google都查得到結果你們自己的自己的行難系統居然查不到我不知道你們那個系統是怎麼建置的所以我當初很後悔我當初去監察院去檢舉的時候我並沒有講得很清楚造成現在各公部門做得如火如荼但是也不是他們該做的我必須跟內政部抱歉內政部所屬的機關也是一樣他們根本就不適合去做司法通譯的培訓那這種東西是不是有"},{"start":4914.769,"end":4925.565,"text":"公正的第三則來做那因為我這邊建議很多齁那我也不再請大家參照素面資料那我要提到法國還有澳洲"},{"start":4926.755,"end":4949.591,"text":"就是我們會議上面有個NATI嘛NATI它只是一個認證機構而已它是NGO組織那它是第三方的它是一個NGO組織那法國還有加拿大其實他們都是NGO組織在做那為什麼我知道這些這些單位他們在做這些因為他們在裡面運作的人甚至裡面的理事長都是我們台灣人"},{"start":4950.7,"end":4975.415,"text":"那他們有來上我的課的時候我才問他們他們的制度到底是怎麼做的原來各國都是在NGO做那我們公部門到底要做什麼公部門就使用啊公部門就做使用為什麼因為我們公部門第一個沒能力第二個沒能力第三個不專業我們到底會什麼我們什麼都不會我們有錢而已啊有錢"},{"start":4976.992,"end":4987.223,"text":"那所以我這邊有提出一些建議就是說我們可不可以仿照這個國外的制度就是把像澳洲澳洲也不錯他把"},{"start":4988.408,"end":5009.304,"text":"所有需要通譯包括社區口譯、醫療口譯還有所謂的司法通譯他們全部都給他撥成一種預算就是需要通譯的就是一種預算那全國是統一價嘛不過這個也不好啦統一價嘛也怪怪的他們有需求通譯的人在單位他們是叫"},{"start":5010.305,"end":5032.078,"text":"叫通譯去叫通譯去以後呢然後他們的費用給付是統一跟一個單位去領然後他們是統一的價碼然後法國也是這樣不過法國這個國家是很佛系的國家他們無為而治他們根本沒有司法通譯制度不過說沒有其實他們做的比我們還多"},{"start":5035.281,"end":5056.84,"text":"這個在那個資料裡面有大家自己參閱所以我希望說這邊可以最後能夠做成決議還是因為我們是一個依法行政的國家那如果沒有立法通過我相信在座的各位在座的官員他們也不會去動那也沒有依法的話多做多錯"},{"start":5058.001,"end":5078.68,"text":"所以我們希望立法通過有關多元文化語言需求的部分應該統籌事權立法通過由一個單位去主辦這個單位一定不是執法機關我們可以去文化部因為文化部我查過他有一個多元文化什麼什麼的然後我們還有另外一個好像那個"},{"start":5081.209,"end":5108.822,"text":"法輔他也是一個蠻公正的單位比如說NGO他也是比較公正的單位只要他不是執法機關他就沒有《刑事訴訟法》第三條的疑慮跟適用那我這邊很希望就是說我們可以立法通過就是有只要是通譯或是司法通譯社區口譯、醫療口譯只要是國家統一便預算到一個單位去然後有一個單位去主管不在於有執法機關他去主管這件事沒人力、沒專業然後"},{"start":5111.383,"end":5137.912,"text":"東西雖然有 器材雖然有但是這個應該要交給更專業的專業的事情還是交給專業的人去做以免我們這個各公部門像我的老東家內政部移民署他們做這種司法通譯那根本就不是他們要做的事情每個人做到如火如荼然後被罵得要死然後做了又做不好 底下又在罵罵又來這邊質詢質詢又說我們做得很好 底下又繼續罵這個不好啦 就是"},{"start":5139.814,"end":5142.501,"text":"他們不是專業單位請不要讓他們再坐下去了好謝謝"},{"start":5144.998,"end":5169.879,"text":"好 謝謝我們的創辦人說實在的就像陳創辦人所說的其實我們的目標也希望成立一個專責的一個翻譯或同意的一個機構像這個澳洲的NATINATI是一直我覺得說我們國內可以去參考的一個機構好 那接下來呢我們邀請的是台灣外籍工作者發展協會徐瑞熙理事長"},{"start":5173.547,"end":5179.266,"text":"委員 各位朋友 各位夥伴大家好"},{"start":5180.499,"end":5204.35,"text":"因為剛才已經有陳允平已經先拋風過了我就針對問題就好了我想請教一下112年的這個翻譯制度的這個精進計畫這是10月份才提出來的請問他的經費多少他大概包括哪幾個面向因為坦白講我們都不曉得有這樣子的一個計畫"},{"start":5205.39,"end":5223.403,"text":"所以我們來參與這個公聽會的時候有些事情我們沒有辦法針對現行的制度跟未來的計畫如何的來做一個接軌跟改善來提出一些具體的建議所以我希望後面可以補是不是委員可以補這個資料或者是說後面再補給我們也可以"},{"start":5224.166,"end":5248.274,"text":"這部分的話 待會就會請行政單位來回答好不好好 OK好 謝謝那我想我從那個1999從2000年就開始做東南亞語的這個翻譯然後呢我也看到所以我知道大概1955什麼時候推出然後我們的這個移民署什麼時候開始來建立這個人才資料庫可是我真的必須要講我覺得今天這個計畫大家一直都在講雙語雙語資料庫"},{"start":5251.585,"end":5279.699,"text":"這件事情今天如果這個會議是在一年前開我個人會覺得差不多但在今天今年從去年年底到今年大家知道網路上最火紅的字是什麼AIAI人工智慧可以做那麼多的事情然後我們現在在談這個雙語的資料庫的時候我們還要慢慢的去建置一個一個一個的雙語各位"},{"start":5280.339,"end":5280.459,"text":"雙語資料庫雙語資料庫"},{"start":5306.779,"end":5332.351,"text":"不是只是雙語對照的問題而已你知道就是從前我們在解釋我們在解釋這個一些移工的法令所用的一些詞彙包含我們1955做這麼多年他們的FAQ有非常有非常好的這個FAQ各式各樣的回憶的就是回復的一個資料但為什麼他的問題沒有辦法有效去解決移工的一個問題"},{"start":5333.331,"end":5357.251,"text":"其實我覺得那裡面有蠻多的包含就是剛剛有提到一個狀況就是說就算你名詞都對了那這個中文的跟這個印尼文的名詞都對了問題是通譯搞不清楚這個是什麼意義啊譬如我們最近在翻譯一個東西他說要就是要信託採用信託結果我一問越南的同事"},{"start":5358.243,"end":5385.86,"text":"越南沒有信託然後我們要怎麼查呢當然你知道我們在查這些字就是有一些國家沒有這些制度那我們要查這些怎麼辦呢於是我們就用了我們就用了大家通用的方式翻譯把這個英文找出來把中文的英文找出來然後我們再去我們再去做一個對照的一個一個翻譯但是越南就是沒有啊那我要怎麼掰這個東西呢好這個東西就是也是一個問題制度上的落差"},{"start":5387.881,"end":5417.271,"text":"所以我們還在講到的這個雙語資料庫我結論一下我請各位回去檢視一下這一個精進計畫在雙語資料庫的建構的過程當中不要花那麼多的人力然後在做這些事情我們要做一個雙語對照甚至於是一個文化差異的一個解釋制度差異的一個解釋讓我們的通譯一查就知道"},{"start":5417.811,"end":5430.816,"text":"不要沒有資料庫然後搞一些那個這個只是我們台灣跟印尼語的這個翻譯的這個東西然後你要叫這個通譯各自理解各自解讀這個法令規定是什麼這個制度的細節是什麼我覺得這個都是不對的"},{"start":5434.758,"end":5455.111,"text":"所以雙語資料庫的建構麻煩各位重新回去能夠我們採用新的這個AI的一個方式我們用更精簡人力更智慧的提供一個一致性的不會有人為哪一個人今天這個理解不夠或者是怎麼樣而造成的這個落差所造成的一些問題"},{"start":5456.932,"end":5475.906,"text":"而且你知道嗎?雙語資料庫還有一個什麼問題呢?大家在做這個雙語資料庫的時候你知道有多少好幾年前台灣發生一個非常震驚國際的一個移工的一個事件那就是在屏東東港的Separando這個案子"},{"start":5478.207,"end":5506.434,"text":"請問有通譯嗎有問題是移工講的是他們印尼的土話是他們印尼的一個地方的local的一個語言那請問這個通譯他難道沒有資格嗎他有經驗他有資格問題是他不懂他那個國家的他不懂他那個地方的土話於是造成了翻譯上極大的一個落差導致的一個導致後來整個震驚國際的一個冤案"},{"start":5507.875,"end":5507.895,"text":"雙語資料庫"},{"start":5528.695,"end":5553.31,"text":"然後翻譯一個那還有一個叫做什麼叫做外部的審查就是審稿者但你知道嗎有一些專業的名詞這個人這個翻譯這樣用然後那個審稿的老師這樣用那我們到底這個當中的一些落差你知道我們在這個翻譯的過程當中這些單位通常要求我們這兩個人是"},{"start":5555.352,"end":5568.048,"text":"這兩個角色是對立的可是事實上有一些名詞他們雙方可能都會因為有一些文化或專業的落差所以他們其實是必須要一起討論的討論出一個合適的一個翻譯的一個方式一個用詞出來"},{"start":5572.212,"end":5589.517,"text":"這是一個問題所以現在是現行政府在採用這個翻譯制度上面它的一個可能需要去改善的一個地方就怎麼樣的把翻譯人員跟這個審稿人員我們來做一個有一些協力合作的一個方式"},{"start":5591.089,"end":5616.779,"text":"找出一些合適的翻譯什麼叫做合適的翻譯呢各位我們最近翻譯了一個非常專業的東西裡面通通都是講到了一大堆的這個化學啊什麼的但是你知道嗎我們要給看的是要看這些資料的人是工人可是工人看不懂所以我們到底要給誰翻譯我們的雙語資料庫要給誰知道要給誰認知我覺得這個也是我們在建構過程當中的一個問題"},{"start":5617.799,"end":5630.984,"text":"好 那我想我就講到這個地方協會目前我們也有在做一個這樣子的一個現在在應用一個在跟一個大學在合作一個APP然後我們再過一段時間我們會公佈出來這個制度 這個即時翻譯的這個APP"},{"start":5635.625,"end":5663.534,"text":"並沒有用到就是並沒有cover那麼多的不同領域的智慧但是我們希望各位就是說可以重新的思考一下這個制度上面我們要的其實這個制度最重要的是我們要給翻譯人員保障翻譯人員同理心給翻譯人員告訴他什麼叫做一個專業的一個通譯的人員我覺得這個才是最重要的而不是再搞一個搞一頭拉股的人馬然後搞一頭拉股的經費再搞這個鎖"},{"start":5664.454,"end":5666.946,"text":"AI就可以很快搞定的一個雙語資料庫 謝謝各位"},{"start":5669.226,"end":5669.646,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5700.092,"end":5725.269,"text":"另外一位是張珍老師她是發表新住民同意多次與會資料庫之研究的主持人也是我國新住民同意人員培訓跟機制發展與澳洲國家及同意認證制度那體會接見之研究的共同主持人這份研究我又看了很多次"},{"start":5725.749,"end":5725.97,"text":"李凱莉主任"},{"start":5743.908,"end":5763.898,"text":"主席然後與會的各位機關代表和我們的專家學者大家早安那移住者服務中心主要是在服務來台短期那不以婚姻為目的的外國人但是同步在這個工作的過程當中我們還是會接觸到許多的新住民那其實列新基金會比較特別是我們本身就有聘通譯那同時因為通譯的工作量大"},{"start":5768.72,"end":5769.46,"text":"社區統一社區統一不同於會議統一社區統一這個部分我們如何能夠確保"},{"start":5796.915,"end":5817.81,"text":"通譯專業人才培育還有通譯人才職涯發展以及科技輔助通譯的這個四個面向來跟大家做一個討論及具體建議那第一個就是我們如何確保通譯的品質它的忠實度完整性和可信賴度事實上剛如我所說現在我們各個單位以剛剛勞動部的報告裡面其實我們有好幾個單位都有聘全職通譯但是在裡面全職通譯它其實還有"},{"start":5823.874,"end":5828.697,"text":"他本身業務部門的相關工作有時候我們會聘請以案來僱用這個特約通譯在這些特約通譯裡面有兩種一種是他以通譯為專業通譯為業所以他會接各種的案他的專業就是通譯另外一種他是兼職通譯他有各種的不同的工作但有案就接沒有案他就做他的工作"},{"start":5850.251,"end":5850.271,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5872.603,"end":5890.095,"text":"中文的人我真的沒有辦法判斷他語言的真實度他的確實度甚至我也沒有辦法了解他有沒有前科因為其實有些通譯其實他是不會留下前科他在等人發現事情的時候他就已經走了其實也是有的"},{"start":5891.693,"end":5906.88,"text":"除非你現場另外一個人去確認他翻譯的可信度那所以我覺得不管是我們或者是各個機關當然我相信很多人都是如果是聘用科約通譯的時候很多時候都是以我們跟這個人的這個合作經驗"},{"start":5909.841,"end":5935.186,"text":"那當然幾乎所有的同意他都是有上過相關的訓練他也有資格但是以我們跟他的合作經驗來做判斷那這個合作經驗和偏好其實他是不是中立的、客觀的、絕對的其實是一個很大的問號因為使用者他有他的期待因為我剛剛講社區同意跟會議同意不一樣社區同意他要跟使用服務的兩端"},{"start":5936.306,"end":5960.148,"text":"他要非常的靠近所以任何一端對他的期待他都感受得到他今天要選擇他要靠近那個付錢給他的那一端還是他要靠近那個可以同樣使用母語那一端還是他有他的目的他的目的是什麼他如果是仲介的同意他有他的目的等等的所以這些東西我們如何回到一個核心點"},{"start":5961.329,"end":5971.553,"text":"政府作為一個如果通譯他是一個重要的而且我們的移住者人數一定是越來越多的這一個社會現實與人口結構的狀況下我們更應該訂立一個一套完整的培育和認證機制從訓練內容評量方式而且能夠讓他持續取得在職訓練時數的能夠讓使用者在兩端都能夠信任口譯服務提供者這還是很核心的地方"},{"start":5988.839,"end":6010.117,"text":"以訓練的內容來看,我們有訪問我們的資深全職以通譯為專業的通譯員他們有跟我們表示目前的訓練,各方都開了各種不同的訓練,其實很多員沒有統一的架構而且內容很高,其實他們對他們來說有時候只是拿一個資格,我放進去人才庫的資格或是來做複習"},{"start":6012.759,"end":6012.979,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6036.171,"end":6036.231,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":6056.824,"end":6079.149,"text":"為什麼我看前面的資料我翻譯的我理解的文字跟前面那個通譯理解的文字不一樣到底是誰的問題但是那一個案子可能就會影響當事人的權益但是我要講的是這個是非常有反思而且誠實的通譯才會表達的其實很多的通譯他就是硬翻我們也曾經發現奇怪完全"},{"start":6080.109,"end":6080.669,"text":"第二點 通譯人才如何永續 通譯機制如何永續"},{"start":6109.722,"end":6136.07,"text":"以目前的狀況我們看到其實大部分的通譯人才都是新住民但是在這當中真正以通譯為職業的人比例又很少當然我們會看有很多通譯像歐美語系因為它有比較多會議口譯的機會所以它的費用或者是一些不同的工作類型比較多但東南語系它就比較多是社區的這個口譯那以這樣在東南語系裡面它又會分不同的語種它的機會度又不同"},{"start":6139.511,"end":6147.438,"text":"那這些人才不斷地在同樣做同樣的事情然後分散在各地我們無法看到永續性的發展"},{"start":6148.899,"end":6148.919,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6170.131,"end":6170.291,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6188.57,"end":6211.299,"text":"包括我們現在所有不同進入台灣的移住管道我們都需要重新去思考用一個完整的制度來因應這個問題然後加強我們的服務那另外一個我覺得很重要就是要加強翻譯使用者對於翻譯的認識當然翻譯使用者就是我們聘用翻譯我們都有我們的期待但是我們要知道翻譯本身它的中立性它的客觀性"},{"start":6213.12,"end":6214.041,"text":"實用科技作為輔助工具"},{"start":6235.939,"end":6239.102,"text":"謝謝李凱莉主任接下來我們邀請的是桃園市群眾服務協會移工政策處汪英達主任"},{"start":6265.472,"end":6265.652,"text":"主席"},{"start":6290.476,"end":6318.174,"text":"是不太夠的而且對於不同來源國他的態度不太一樣舉例來講我覺得比較離譜的是對菲律賓我很多年前有講過到現在這個狀況沒有改善簡單而言之就是政府認為菲律賓是英語系國家講英語的人就夠了可是其實如果真的跟菲律賓移工溝通過的話就會發現很多的菲律賓移工他的英文其實不太好的他可能聽不懂講不出來有的甚至連理解都有困難"},{"start":6318.914,"end":6318.934,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6353.1,"end":6365.317,"text":"全台灣只有少數的兩三個縣市的勞工局有Tagalog的通譯呢?這是非常嚴重的事情真的不能夠再以英文來代替菲律賓語了這是完全不行的"},{"start":6366.941,"end":6390.159,"text":"法院跟立檢署的通譯都參差不齊而且有很嚴重的問題舉例而言我自己就曾經目睹過有一個人口發現被害人在現場有一個室友菲律賓與同意可是這個同意他因為後面好像有要去上課他就不斷的催促他越來越的不耐煩他就催這個當事人用非常不耐煩的語氣他說你快點啊你不要講你要講重點啊"},{"start":6391.66,"end":6412.308,"text":"這是很糟糕的事情這個當事人年紀比較大他不太會直接對話他就會繞一大圈可是我們的同意沒有辦法好好的跟他做傳譯卻反而用這種壓力來壓他他比檢察官還要兇啊我非常非常清楚的理解檢察官還很耐心的聽可是這個同意就非常的兇"},{"start":6413.728,"end":6437.713,"text":"後來就跟檢察官說這個東西不能用了那再來就是常常不管是法院、地檢署還是警察局所謂的這個資料庫我們剛剛好幾位嫌疑人都講過了其實都舊了常常找不到而且有時候就是找個仲介那仲介我不是說絕對不行可是仲介要怎麼處理這是一個很嚴重的問題仲介身份常常有利益問題他自己身為仲介常常就不知不覺的"},{"start":6438.493,"end":6439.354,"text":"民視不重要嗎?當然不是啊!"},{"start":6462.737,"end":6491.516,"text":"移工遇到的很多的欠薪的問題如果勞工局沒有辦法處理的話他們接下來就是民事案件那憑什麼他是民事案件就不給他同意呢我們每一個要告民事的當事人幾乎都要由我們來幫他們翻譯這也是蠻糟糕的事情這其實也不符合兩公寓的精神再來剛剛也好幾位講到了醫院跟這個對這個翻譯的部分我特別要講到了我們勞動部跟印度這剛剛正在簽MOU"},{"start":6492.797,"end":6508.778,"text":"之前也常常聽到不同的國家不同新的國家來我希望我們的政府要好好的思考你們到底有沒有做好準備來引進新的來臨國我們連現有的這些國家都沒有提供足夠的翻譯的服務你就要開心的"},{"start":6510.289,"end":6527.147,"text":"我這邊不是站在昨天那個大遊行的立場我跟他們立場完全不一樣可是我認為我們政府要來引進新的移工就必須要有清楚的移工的翻譯的服務絕對不能用英文來代替不要說印度人跟菲律賓一樣都會講英文都是英語系國家對不起這是胡說八道"},{"start":6530.87,"end":6533.051,"text":"醫院與心理諮詢完全沒有法定同意"},{"start":6553.652,"end":6563.962,"text":"怎麼可以這樣子呢我們以前就有學者已經研究過了他長期跟這個新住民的翻譯對不起我關掉新住民翻譯他就發現一個很嚴重的問題就是"},{"start":6566.451,"end":6590.719,"text":"就是醫院醫生或者是護理師常常只要有台灣人就會以他對話為主他根本不去聽當事人的話這個是非常離譜的事情病痛只有當事人自己最清楚跟他去的是什麼人這個醫療實施者不管是醫師還是護理師根本不知道他們怎麼樣關係你根本不知道這個台灣人是不是懂他的狀況不僅台灣人有時候仲介有時候是外國人"},{"start":6591.539,"end":6604.597,"text":"他與他們兩個語言是不是通你根本就不知道我就在醫院曾經看到過根本不同國籍的一個仲介帶一個移工去好像是一個印尼仲介帶一個越南移工他去用國語跟他講話"},{"start":6606.422,"end":6607.503,"text":"臺灣醫院竟然完全沒有同意"},{"start":6630.194,"end":6654.822,"text":"我們很多的移工其實有受到肢體暴力有受到性暴力或者是可能因為工作上的壓力就會有心理上的問題可是我們曾經有考量過移工或者新住民他在有困難的時候提供心理智商的通譯嗎完全沒有完全沒有我們曾經跟新北市勞工局有提供這樣的計畫他們有做了可是做了發現其實沒有就業啊這出現另外一個嚴重的問題了"},{"start":6655.842,"end":6656.022,"text":"政府應提供"},{"start":6678.653,"end":6678.673,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6700.681,"end":6722.015,"text":"然後我覺得至少這幾個部門 勞工局 醫院跟警察局他都應該共同公共翻譯的一個服務網由政府來提供然後剛剛Peter有講過 我可能理解錯誤我是NGO也沒有關係 就是要模仿國外的有效制度來成立這個相關單位 來正好運作"},{"start":6725.237,"end":6727.88,"text":"民間機構合作提高通譯品質退場機制問題必須要讓塑形不良或專業不足的有曾經被投訴過的通譯或翻譯"},{"start":6742.975,"end":6757.35,"text":"有被退場的機制但是他們可以申訴我覺得這要好好的處理像剛剛講的這些問題可能都沒有我剛剛講的這些問題剛剛好幾位前面講到的翻譯上的不專業的問題其實都需要有退場機制的好 那我就講這邊 謝謝"},{"start":6760.607,"end":6763.931,"text":"社團法人新住民家庭成長協會科技林秘書長"},{"start":6788.854,"end":6789.074,"text":"柯雨玲議員"},{"start":6804.529,"end":6809.193,"text":"專家學者有提到AI那在AI的這個部分我曾經去問了一個專門在訓練AI資料庫的AI的專家我說那我們的通譯人員在不久的將來即將失業嗎然後他給我的回答是全世界還有好一段的路要走"},{"start":6825.967,"end":6833.492,"text":"好所以目前的AI的資料庫好像還不能應用在我們這樣子文字的翻譯都還更何況需要再修正更何況是面對面的口譯那更是有一大段的路要走那個是一個專門在培訓AI在訓練AI的專業人員給我的回應"},{"start":6853.544,"end":6854.384,"text":"主席"},{"start":6874.371,"end":6899.683,"text":"翻譯的內容會牽涉不只語言的能力還牽涉到專業的知識還有各種的專有名詞所以我會覺得不同的專有名詞上面對於通譯人員的培訓應該要再加強另外特別是在待遇上不應該有齊頭式的平等應該依照不同的"},{"start":6901.116,"end":6908.199,"text":"翻譯內容的難易度以及翻譯的風險我覺得可能很多人沒有去考慮到風險我覺得風險必須考量進去那還有同意人員本身的能力要有所區別那在這裡我也"},{"start":6919.366,"end":6925.708,"text":"看到那個行政院有規劃一個通譯制度的草案裡面會提升提高這個通譯費用那不知道那個何時會頒布要頒布實施了嗎那裡面會不會有簡單的能力的分級那我覺得這個如果還沒頒布是不是可以再多加思考的"},{"start":6945.513,"end":6970.96,"text":"另外就是為了要提升服務的品質所以在是不是通譯這個職門上面可以比照我們國家其實有其他職業類種的證照的制度那需要一段的時間就再教育他那個職業的證照他才可以繼續用"},{"start":6973.101,"end":7000.372,"text":"那另外就是現在啦大部分通譯人員運用的都是公部門那我看到大部分的公部門都把通譯人員都視為是不是僱傭要嘛就是委任關係要嘛就是承攬的關係那因為不是僱傭關係所以在通譯人員的保險勞保上面我聽到蠻多的通譯人員對這一點"},{"start":7002.273,"end":7002.653,"text":"董事長"},{"start":7021.701,"end":7021.921,"text":"提綱的第二點"},{"start":7047.967,"end":7047.987,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7074.04,"end":7078.364,"text":"統一一個固定的制度或是統一一個固定的契約可能很有難度那倒是如果要統整倒是可以把這個通譯的培訓或是機制可以設想為一個是共同共用的一個是各部門各部會有各部會專門的就是把"},{"start":7102.683,"end":7103.163,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7127.265,"end":7127.485,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7150.151,"end":7150.571,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7177.347,"end":7194.563,"text":"他翻譯成越南文的能力是多少是怎樣然後他把中文翻譯成越南文的能力是怎麼樣所以我還蠻建議是應該要有中文的平和華語文的平和機制"},{"start":7198.98,"end":7220.88,"text":"還有有必要成立專責的機構嗎那我就不知道這個專責的機構是比較要政府部門還是民間那如果有一些翻譯上面牽涉到公權力的行使的話那如果委由民間那那個民間的"},{"start":7223.903,"end":7243.265,"text":"公權力公信度如何我覺得這個都是要審慎考量的那另外剛有幾位專家也提到了心理健康的方面我們的確也碰到處理過一些新住民或外籍人士他在台灣他沒有辦法做"},{"start":7243.906,"end":7244.226,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7269.873,"end":7278.458,"text":"提供更多人才來充實臺灣與世界各地交流的能力以上 謝謝好 謝謝柯玉琳秘書長寶貴的意見有些問題待會再請行政單位回答接下來我們邀請的是臺大社會系研究助理劉清平我要請同學嗎 你還在選嗎"},{"start":7298.97,"end":7317.105,"text":"委員好,我目前是任職於台大社會系的專業研究助理那同時我其實也還在學是就讀於台大國家發展研究所的碩士生那今天呢我是一個也是同時是一個台越新二代的一個角度來分享我在這個議題上的看見"},{"start":7319.106,"end":7336.297,"text":"其實過去這幾年我與一群新住民第二代的朋友擴集台灣各地我們其實陸續有在發起一些公共投書像是新二代留聲機或是現在在籌組中的移民青年倡議陣線在這個過程中其實我們也觀察到不管各部會的一個翻譯或是說通譯的這個現況我們都"},{"start":7346.344,"end":7346.825,"text":"立法院第11會議"},{"start":7363.499,"end":7364,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會議"},{"start":7391.221,"end":7412.312,"text":"我剛剛看了一些書面的資料看到警政署有提到說通譯的人員是很充足很飽和的非常的強調就是人員充足的這個面向那也有提到說什麼社會案件然後其實通譯的需求是夠的也有在培訓等等的但是我看到一個很有趣的一點"},{"start":7414.093,"end":7428.449,"text":"法務部提供了一個資料在第三頁的地方有提到一個特約通譯傳譯服務情形反應表我其實是在這個資料第一次看到所以剛剛二補一下去查詢了一下那發現那個填表的一個"},{"start":7429.75,"end":7429.77,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7453.086,"end":7453.126,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":7468.522,"end":7472.185,"text":"表的設計是能夠更好協助警方或檢察官問案辦案還是能夠更中立地扮演通譯需求者在法律權益上的被告知"},{"start":7490,"end":7490.32,"text":"通譯人才培訓"},{"start":7511.295,"end":7511.395,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7530.638,"end":7530.938,"text":"新住民其實也是非常需要的"},{"start":7555.678,"end":7582.085,"text":"那尤其前陣子7月的時候有發生一個社會案件就是張化的蒲炎香在基層員警在執法的過程中誤把一個移民二代就是當成義工然後就是有一些誤會跟污辱的事件那在這個過程中我們就有看到說其實我們很關心的是在這個兒少受傷的事件當中他作為一個單親就是新住民的家庭他的母親在協助他"},{"start":7582.705,"end":7583.506,"text":"通譯需求者不止有移工"},{"start":7598.129,"end":7598.289,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7629.671,"end":7630.271,"text":"中年老年階段生命歷程"},{"start":7644.747,"end":7644.907,"text":"新住民權益保障"},{"start":7667.432,"end":7667.632,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7696.46,"end":7696.48,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7714.309,"end":7714.489,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7732.851,"end":7732.871,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7757.356,"end":7757.496,"text":"政策推動"},{"start":7772.984,"end":7773.004,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7789.012,"end":7810.67,"text":"我會希望提這個點就是代表還有一個部分就是其實現在現有很多APP或是什麼通譯人才名冊但是這個東西要如何發揮它的觸及率讓需要的使用者可以進一步主動的被告知或主動的去觸及用他們的母語就可以搜尋到相關的資源我想是非常重要的"},{"start":7811.351,"end":7811.631,"text":"副教授陳子維"},{"start":7843.568,"end":7863.911,"text":"主席還有各位與會行政機關的代表大家早安那我最後一個講是因為我想前面幾位專家都比我更專業就把大部分的時間讓給他們如果我等一下我講快一點不到8分鐘結束的話就把時間留給行政機關來回答我想這個我們"},{"start":7865.393,"end":7891.159,"text":"今天我們在場的人大概除了主席之外我們大概分成幾類今天來首先報告的政府機關應該在通譯這點上事情上面屬於的是使用者今天來參加的民間的專家們應該是大部分的服務的提供團體這個群體的提供者那我們作為一個學校"},{"start":7893.191,"end":7920.701,"text":"我算是站在中間吧所以會採取一個比較我希望等一下我的報告採取一個比較整體宏觀的角度細節我就不太說了雖然我自己也是具有高院特約同意的身份世大翻譯所也從十幾二十年前就開始參與這些相關的工作但是我們作為一個學術機關我覺得跟在場的各位專家比起來我們應該採取一個比較站在中間的立場一個宏觀的態度來看這件事情"},{"start":7922.281,"end":7930.504,"text":"如果我們考量全世界的通譯制度其實我很有信心的跟大家報告其實台灣跟外國比起來我們一點都不差我們從最以前大家紛紛擾擾剛剛陳創辦人說到今天去檢舉到現在也不過十幾年的時間"},{"start":7941.314,"end":7968.416,"text":"今天我們能夠有這樣的進展不是說我們自己誇耀自己而是我們看全世界其他國家的發展台灣在這麼短的期間內可以走這麼遠我覺得自己覺得是一件很了不起的事情要非常感謝在今天與會的所有單位共同的努力至少我們的目標非常清楚我也蠻贊成委員剛剛開幕的時候所講的我們一定要持續的精進所以秉著"},{"start":7969.617,"end":7989.666,"text":"只有更好沒有最好這個精神我來提一個簡單的建議就講一件事情就是講質的變化為什麼會這麼說呢因為剛才在行政機關的各位長官的發言裡面從最前面的法務部的蔡市長開始還有這個李市長也講到了剛才黃助長也講到"},{"start":7991.827,"end":8019.841,"text":"還有這個勞動部黃專辦委員也有講到還有司法院的羅專辦委員都有講到通譯現在人力已經逐漸的充沛都還算是可以用到了所以我覺得我們展望未來我們不要陷入外國的陷阱他們也是一開始培訓很多人到最後那個制度就不行了那個制度最不行的原因大概有兩個第一個就是政府沒有錢"},{"start":8021.257,"end":8029.833,"text":"美國英國都遇到這樣的問題最後政府的最後走了最差的路就是把通譯服務全部外包給一個翻譯社最後就"},{"start":8033.072,"end":8053.324,"text":"最後說6月份我們的經費只剩20萬了用完了就沒有了那個通譯服務就決定就結束了所以我認為剛剛有這個討論提綱裡面政府是不是要設立專責機構專責機構可以設立但是請大家在修訂在制定這個制度的時候一定要考慮裁員這個問題"},{"start":8055.592,"end":8077.912,"text":"用編列預算來做是不是一個很好的方式不知道還是要考慮一個能夠裁員自己自主的永續的單位大家在設計制度的時候要討論一下那麼我就繼續從這個質變這個議題跟大家簡單的說明我覺得我的議題是大家都說了量已經差不多了"},{"start":8078.473,"end":8078.533,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8098.111,"end":8112.619,"text":"雖然有好幾千位編制內的翻譯但是我每一次去不同的地方上課我都會問請問各位去年一年真正去從事過幾次翻譯最後的每一次都是呈現兩極化的現象"},{"start":8115.712,"end":8125.618,"text":"應該不是兩極化應該是非常的統計上是非常左偏的現象大部分的人都是服務一年我去上課15個小時20個小時我去服務三次"},{"start":8129.329,"end":8147.385,"text":"但是就會有3個人4個人服務25次以上這代表什麼意思也就是我們花了很多力氣上了很多課培訓的這100個通譯裡面有70個人80個人是一個一年只有去兩次只有去三次"},{"start":8148.854,"end":8168.901,"text":"也就是說大部分的服務都集中在少數人的身上但是我們不可以怪罪是制度不合理這是因為使用者本來就是這樣因為學理上告訴我們尋找可以信賴的通譯這件事情他的搜尋成本很高"},{"start":8169.821,"end":8195.69,"text":"你找到一個好用的通譯大部分的使用者不管是檢察官不管是法官不管是醫生不管是移民署的官員一旦有一個好的通譯大概就我就這一個就好了我下一次繼續他就好了任何的我們一般老百姓一般消費者也是這樣我買習慣用一個東西我就不要再花時間去找我找一個不認識的人下一次我翻的好翻不好我不知道我要重新試一個很麻煩"},{"start":8196.9,"end":8211.146,"text":"所以最後就造成喜歡的人永遠都是那一群人我相信每一位書記官每一位警官每一位檢察官每一個人手機裡都有一個好用通譯的那一群組"},{"start":8212.605,"end":8239.331,"text":"我找來找去就是找這些人所以我覺得找這個剛剛理事長有說叫不到是因為姓名排在後面的確有可能但是有另外一個可能性是因為你不在那個警官你不在這位檢察官你不在這位說機關的line群組裡面我覺得這是我們將來我們的制度再往前的時候要注意的一件事情那我覺得前提是這種制度這種方式是一定會這樣的"},{"start":8240.879,"end":8240.999,"text":"還有一分鐘對不對"},{"start":8269.66,"end":8288.397,"text":"使用這個追蹤之後把這些使這個服務量比較大比較穩定的這些通譯篩選下來讓這些人作為通譯服務的核心這有什麼好處我們就可以讓他前面幾位專家有講到生活穩定"},{"start":8289.238,"end":8314.099,"text":"他不用每天我不知道我明天下個禮拜有沒有買菜錢我很穩定我一個月都會有固定大概是這個量的案子讓我做我就可以很專心的來做這件事情同時使用機關就有更光明光緬堂皇的要求你來上課你要訓練要評估這樣一下來才會有一個良性的循環"},{"start":8315.191,"end":8315.691,"text":"以上報告謝謝"},{"start":8345.427,"end":8367.58,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝我們陳教授我剛剛有聽到陳教授在說有些通譯真的是大家都在搶司法的醫療了都在找同一個人我正想說我們一個司法素養的養成可能要三四年四五年然後醫療的秩序的養成可能也要三四年四五年可是我們一個可能通譯它各種"},{"start":8369.147,"end":8395.148,"text":"各種條件各種知識他都有就當作非常精彩的有這樣子的一個很難對不對其實總而來講還是專業度還是沒有辦法到達那個程度我們所有的專家學者的發言都已經結束了最後我們要請今天列席的議會機關代表來做一些回應"},{"start":8396.209,"end":8409.975,"text":"好那剛剛我們從一開始了我找一下資料剛剛我們有第一位第一位是離開第一位是等一下我看一下"},{"start":8413.106,"end":8437.697,"text":"紅滿之旅市長有提到這個醫療的這個培訓然後說其實醫療有些培訓非常的隨便我也提到紅滿之旅市長有提到那資料庫裡面如果名字ABC你的字母是在前面的那可能就會比較常被使用那在後面呢你再有專業可能都很難被抽用到這個部分"},{"start":8438.217,"end":8438.497,"text":"衝浪不易衛福部"},{"start":8464.087,"end":8466.388,"text":"主席 剛剛還有各位參與通譯制度非常關心的來賓有提到針對醫療的部分 必須要先講我們剛才一開始已經說明其實因為醫療它的專業性 所以相對培育的資源相對會"},{"start":8483.536,"end":8483.556,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8502.09,"end":8502.11,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8517.913,"end":8517.933,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8543.357,"end":8558.95,"text":"專業上面他已經具備但只是說他是外語的部分去做處理所以目前來講我們才會在我們的一些國際療法部分我們會去推動因為那個第一個是大概剛才講到說是有一些比較在資歷上面比較相對優勢的一些外國人會來台灣做醫療服務那我們會來去推動這個外語能力的培訓那這樣子的外語培訓其實剛有講到說如果是培育我們自己院內的因為"},{"start":8569.94,"end":8570.901,"text":"中階或外籍看護"},{"start":8600.196,"end":8624.896,"text":"這不是我們會優先使用的一個資源但是因為有時候疾病的處理它其實不能拖那告知統一這邊又是法律上規定它必須為之的一個規定那因此它就必須要去做處理所以這個部分雖然我不當不過就是在資源上面比較少的情況下所以非常誠實的跟各位報告有沒有使用到仲介或者是外籍看護我們會我們也是會有這種情形"},{"start":8625.236,"end":8625.336,"text":"委員會發言委員會"},{"start":8647.27,"end":8647.53,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8670.294,"end":8671.956,"text":"第3個長照部分目前來講這一塊因為我剛才問了一下我們長照司長官不過因為他們說目前來講這一塊可能他們資源還要再找一下"},{"start":8685.091,"end":8685.111,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8702.427,"end":8702.447,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8720.678,"end":8720.698,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8737.339,"end":8764.937,"text":"好 謝謝我們李念慈檢任記者剛剛有關於那個謙平同學所提到的這個長照的部分我想謙平的意思就是說希望就是在長照這個政策可以一些多國語言的這個傳達對不對你的意思是這樣子就希望說比如說長照我們可能有一些政策我們希望有多國語言我想謙平對長照的部分的要求是這樣子"},{"start":8766.398,"end":8769.221,"text":"衛福部通譯培訓下放到地方政府各縣市政府各場各地不管是培訓的時間也好 內容也好其實都是不一的"},{"start":8782.132,"end":8802.605,"text":"這部分很需要大家是來做一個檢討好那再來的話可能就需要麻煩司法院來回覆了因為陳允平創辦人對司法院這個部分其實好像有還蠻多的意見對這個我們陳允平創辦人這個部分司法院是不是要做一個回覆有提到所謂的兩公務的這個問題"},{"start":8804.326,"end":8804.647,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8825.886,"end":8848.816,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好剛剛各位學者專家所提到有關於司法院的部分我這邊做一個回覆基本上司法院在訂定這個通譯的相關的制度的時候我們有考慮到使用者也有考慮到傳譯的這個部分所以在傳譯面的部分我們是有法院使用特約通譯的辦法"},{"start":8849.776,"end":8851.218,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會"},{"start":8869.958,"end":8870.338,"text":"立法院第11會議"},{"start":8897.901,"end":8925.467,"text":"在這個使用通譯的部分呢我們呢剛剛創辦人那邊提到的可能是比較希望要有一個統一的這個機構來做這部分的通譯的推動那我們認證我們也是樂觀其成的那可能進一步看細節要再怎麼樣的討論那其他的討論譬如說剛剛有提到說傳譯完了以後有一個特約通譯服務情形的意見反應表"},{"start":8926.807,"end":8946.156,"text":"我記得是那個簽評那邊提出來的那我們這邊這個傳譯服務情形的反應表主要是作為說使用通譯的人他可能是當事人也可能是證人在法庭上使用通譯的人他們對於這個通譯有什麼樣的反應的意見他們可以在這個表上"},{"start":8946.476,"end":8946.496,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8971.301,"end":8989.979,"text":"法庭上不論是民事案件或者是刑事案件都有使用通譯的情況那法院也有備有通譯所以不曉得那個實際的情況是怎麼樣如果有需要了解的話我也希望這個專家學者可以提供一些資料讓我知道說那個個案是什麼樣的情況是沒有用到通譯"},{"start":8991.841,"end":9001.309,"text":"今天來到這邊我們聽到了很多專家學者的意見我們也會帶回去作為我們進進我們通譯制度的參考以上報告"},{"start":9003.846,"end":9031.757,"text":"謝謝司法院對於徐瑞熙理事長的意見就是有關於我們內政部我們要推行的這個通譯制度經濟事辦計畫到底預算有多少然後好像剛剛也有一些專家學者有提到就是說那這個是要如何的運用如何的運作那是不是請內政部我們移民署黃林鈺組長要來作為一個回覆嗎"},{"start":9041.057,"end":9065.538,"text":"主席還有各位夥伴大家好我想今天很高興有聽到很多先進對於這個議題這麼的關切那其實這個也是我們各機關長期以來非常重視的一項業務因為其實跟我們的業務推展有非常密切的關係我們也希望能夠與時俱進那行政院在去年其實就交付了我們內政部這項任務因為他是在新住民事務協調匯報的時候有委員提起"},{"start":9068.48,"end":9068.66,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9087.395,"end":9087.415,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9105.671,"end":9125.284,"text":"在這個資格培訓的這個認定的部分呢基本上也是有很多的朋友跟我們反映說其實通譯員的華語能力常常有時候反而是翻譯上的最大的困境所以我們在這一次裡面呢就把這個培訓資格的要件把華語能力放進去那也加了這個基本的學經歷的門檻我們希望就陳老師所說的這個量夠了"},{"start":9130.367,"end":9130.387,"text":"培訓現況"},{"start":9138.722,"end":9167.063,"text":"其實現行大概就是各機關都是各自培訓那時數也都不一致有的8有的12有的14有的15都不同那行政院也做了一個盤點跟討論那我們也設計出了基本的基礎課程還有包括這個專業課程那專業課程就是由授權由各機關依照自己的專業度來設計那基礎課程呢就是各機關一定要避上的包括通譯技巧"},{"start":9168.084,"end":9168.264,"text":"包括他們第一線現場模擬"},{"start":9194.181,"end":9194.421,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9214.366,"end":9214.506,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":9234.312,"end":9251.291,"text":"以前不管什麼樣的案件大大小小不管是服務站的服務區公所的服務員生育保健員然後乃至我們跟警政署我們專情隊常用的這些筆錄通通都是300塊那我們這次也做了一些建議我們可能會把費用就兩極化"},{"start":9254.026,"end":9270.033,"text":"提高這個 增加一個公共事務的部分公共事務主要就是指的移民署跟警政署我們這邊在做司法警察機關在進行行政或是司法調查的時候他們的費用會提高至少到每小時500"},{"start":9271.354,"end":9282.705,"text":"那一般的這個行政協助的部分一般的口譯的部分就是大概像移民署的這個服務站的部分他們服務的是比較簡單的協助填表之類的可能會調到350那因為這是我們的預劃是草案"},{"start":9287.528,"end":9288.649,"text":"行政院決定關切詞彙資料庫"},{"start":9303.914,"end":9331.124,"text":"到底誰是對的他們自己也很confused所以我們移民署從去年我們就先先做了第一個事辦的計畫就是在基金找了一個一個小錢一個委託研究今年應該會年底會結案我們先找越南語跟印尼語那針對大家比較常用的移民法國籍法就業服務法還有家暴防治法等等這幾個比較核心還有健保法從裡面去抓取一些常用的詞彙"},{"start":9333.235,"end":9360.353,"text":"長用的詞彙也就是說他們在翻譯上覺得很困擾的那些詞彙那這些詞彙呢透過一個篩選篩選出來之後呢他們會經過一些有個小組會去做審議就是找出一個最合適的一個翻譯方式那目前呢這是一個這是我們第一次這樣做啦那研究者也是第一次這樣做所以我們還在try希望這樣的成果出來到底能不能貼近實務上的需要所以它需要經過檢定的需要經過檢定"},{"start":9362.975,"end":9363.115,"text":"通譯資料庫"},{"start":9382.003,"end":9397.591,"text":"希望這個慢慢的把這個詞彙資料庫能夠建立起來那我們也跟教育部商量好就是說他們有一個樂詞網樂詞網目前裡面只有中英雙語其實是不夠啦因為國內不是只有中英文所以我們也希望說到時候我們這些翻譯完畢經過各機關"},{"start":9401.893,"end":9422.157,"text":"公開讓大家運用這是我們長期的目標至於中間可能就是各機關也會依著他自己的專業需要要各自去發展我們是有這樣的共識這個是一個事半計畫我想可能沒有辦法期待他包山包海全部解決大家剛剛所提的檯面上所有的問題"},{"start":9423.897,"end":9428.52,"text":"總是一步一步的往前推我們也希望說這個事辦計畫為期兩年兩年後我們也希望再繼續的盤點這兩年當中發現了各樣的問題然後持續的在滾動進進所以剛剛很多先進有提到說"},{"start":9439.966,"end":9440.166,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":9466.96,"end":9490.857,"text":"這是個很大的工程,不容易,因為NATI,不管是NATI或是TIS National,其實他們都有非常龐大的人力據我了解,那個TIS裡面就有三千多位翻譯人員,所以他每年的營業額會來到一億澳幣是一個非常龐大的機關,每年受理的通數來到一百萬通這個龐大的機關是,它的量能很大"},{"start":9491.437,"end":9515.316,"text":"那所以各位可以看看哪個機關我們可以持下類似這樣的這個所以我想每個國家有他自己在這個發展的脈絡他會有他自己的一些機制那可能各國跟各國之間有一些差異性但是別人做得好的我覺得我們可以去學習那我覺得我們還是有很多可以再精進的部分那以上我就先做這樣簡要的報告謝謝"},{"start":9518.098,"end":9518.639,"text":"太嘉洛語"},{"start":9544.959,"end":9545.98,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9560.526,"end":9560.646,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9586.678,"end":9609.169,"text":"一個政府所主持的一個專責單位是我們每個人期待的那是不是能夠馬上就一步就做到我想這次就像黃立業組長所講的這是一個很龐大的這個工程我們也知道那我們希望就是說從這事辦計畫開始我們往後越來越精進那再來我們就再請教我們各位專家寫者有需不需要有第二輪的發言需要補充的嗎好來我們請我們小影評雙動人"},{"start":9615.868,"end":9616.63,"text":"好謝謝因為只有3分鐘我講快一點"},{"start":9627.162,"end":9654.901,"text":"剛剛講的那個替代性創傷就是有一些疾病需要去預防是心理的通譯人員的心理疾病那個叫替代性創傷因為我上課的時候有教這個有分為事前的迴避跟事後的治療這個我就不再講這個Victorious Trauma這東西應該是立委通譯課程裡面去教才對然後第二個通譯不該被當事人平和"},{"start":9656.54,"end":9682.783,"text":"司法同意因為我們在進行司法同意的時候那個司法同意在法律上的地位是當事人角色他不應該被當事人再評核一次我想這是對我們司法同意人員基本的尊重就像學校老師學生可以評是因為他們上他們的課可是他們去做司法同意的時候是去被法院邀請的你還評他我覺得這本身就是不是很禮貌"},{"start":9683.583,"end":9706.376,"text":"是不可以這樣子用那個questionary給他評這是不適合的然後第三個就是各使用單位就是有司法通譯需求跟通譯需求的使用單位應該要定期做人員的在職訓練教育就是如何使用司法通譯或是如何使用通譯人員這些對於使用"},{"start":9707.316,"end":9723.125,"text":"如果接近這個資源甚至這些同意人員基本的認識或是基本的尊重我想這個都要定期來上課不管是法官、檢察官或是律師還是我們的執法人員我覺得都是有必要要定期的訓練第三個"},{"start":9727.368,"end":9746.539,"text":"還是呼籲主席就是我們禁訴立法通過將這個多元文化語言需求的這個事權統一在某個部會但絕對不會在執法部會這個是必須要的因為在座出席的各位官員我點名一下"},{"start":9747.699,"end":9773.047,"text":"移民署、警政署請問你們出乎歸程哪裡有寫到說你們要辦同意這件事?有嗎?沒有嗎?都是一個行政命令交辦而已如果我們是以法治國家來看都是需要立法通過才能去執行那這些單位誰做誰倒楣誰做誰水餃都是這樣子就是做了以後就開始被罵底下開始被罵那人力也不夠預算也不夠"},{"start":9774.648,"end":9778.478,"text":"專業也不夠然後一直做就一直被底下的幹掉一直被罵"},{"start":9779.727,"end":9803.278,"text":"我還是覺得主席還是比較有遠見開了這個公聽會就是趕快統一事權沒有事權統一的話其他各單位一直做一直做就一直被罵這個是不適合的尤其內政部警政署跟移民署在做這個他本身就是司法警察跟準司法警察這怎麼可以去培訓司法通譯呢我就覺得怪怪的他培訓出來司法通譯他是要幹嘛"},{"start":9804.338,"end":9820.979,"text":"他是要幫助解決司法單位的問題還是要解決語言不通的人的問題我覺得這個都很有很有意義然後建議將那個預算不夠的部分我覺得這個是可以挪的不是嗎像勞動部那邊有這個就業安定基金我講一下然後"},{"start":9822.781,"end":9836.054,"text":"內政部也是用居安利基金然後司法院法務部他是有編預算其實那些東西我們是也在公布這很好算的一年的件數再加上價錢不就算出來了"},{"start":9837.35,"end":9864.099,"text":"就明年再編那個預算就好如果說有一個主管的單位預算就出來了有錢難道也不能辦事嗎這就很簡單的事情只是大家願不願意做最後來廣告一下本會也有平台也是200多個人都是商戶勞動部TTQS還有ICAP級別的可能大家聽不懂我在講什麼就是請勞動部這邊加油一下你們那個TTQS跟ICAP推了半天結果好像沒有人鳥你們"},{"start":9864.779,"end":9883.436,"text":"所以我覺得這很可惜它是一個澳洲職能的認證那很多單位都已經通過這個認證它等於是國家級的認證通過了以後 結果勞動部力有未待勞動部加油一下勞動部要趕快再推行一下甚至請指揮老師比如說北中南都有那個"},{"start":9884.727,"end":9907.269,"text":"研究所 翻研究所他們都可以用TTQS跟ICAP那套模組去幫那個通譯人員上課提升我們通譯人員的水準水準提高了以後再來談價錢沒有license沒有那個認可的東西怎麼去跟人家提高價錢這個可能公部門也不會同意我在想也是這樣子然後"},{"start":9909.455,"end":9936.988,"text":"對於這個司法院的回覆本身我感到三點第一個 同情第二個 氣憤第三個 無奈這個我在104年參加貴部的會議的時候你們就已經這樣講了就是我司法院我有預算我有法規那其他的單位呢不關我的事就是這樣子那這個也是凸顯了我們這個事權沒有統一事權沒有統一就大家來來去去那"},{"start":9939.856,"end":9966.698,"text":"這邊剛才也講過,內政部移民署跟警政署我剛才查了一下,初步規程裡面沒有講到說要做通譯連編都扯不到用到的都是新住民什麼基金那個東西是要用在新住民身上而且給專業的人在用這個我們執法單位是不適合再繼續這樣辦我必須對我們廣大的執法人員感到委屈跟抱歉"},{"start":9968.479,"end":9986.637,"text":"做了一些不該做的事所以移民署還在查會還有什麼非洲租賃也關移民署的事情就是很奇怪他就做了一些不該做的事情然後人力也沒有再增加然後又要做那麼多事情基層很累所以還是回到那個依法行政"},{"start":9987.398,"end":10006.39,"text":"如果說初步規程不修正就請立法院趕緊加緊腳步趕快統一事權解救那個基層很辛苦的執法通人每天都找不到同意三更半夜都打給我這真的是很可憐我們現在以現行的制度所建立的這個"},{"start":10007.779,"end":10025.966,"text":"洋洋灑灑的東西事實上是不足、不夠用、不夠好為什麼?人員不夠、專業不夠、能力不夠麻煩還是專業的還是交給專家去做我們公部門人力有限還是做我們自己本分的工作就好"},{"start":10029.894,"end":10043.964,"text":"謝謝我們的創辦人提供很多基層的聲音跟意見剛剛有提到勞動部我印象當中勞動部是所有的使用單位裡面唯一沒有提供培訓課程的"},{"start":10046.186,"end":10046.426,"text":"徐瑞熙議員"},{"start":10073.53,"end":10084.845,"text":"很高興參加這個座談會但是我想公聽會那我想要強調幾個第一個就是說我們要做這個計畫之前我們一定要有一些很好的一些就是怎麼樣來訓練這些這些這個通譯的專業"},{"start":10088.55,"end":10118.144,"text":"那所以在這個部分上面我覺得最重要的事情對基礎的一個工作就是我們怎麼樣運用AI來輔助我並不是說要用AI來取代我想這個事情是很大的一個差別然後另外一個因為事實上現在我們連有一些定義啊一些名詞在使用的時候都不一致那這個通譯用這樣子那個通譯用這樣子然後定義他們在認知的一些定義上又不一致所以這個部分其實是一個可以規格化一致化的一個"},{"start":10118.744,"end":10145.283,"text":"一個這樣的一個建構的標準應該是要透過這些人工智慧來做那第二個就是說關於就是剛才移民署所提到的其實我覺得我們剛才有提到一個非常重要的就是說在整個那個通譯的這個服務過程當中我認為通譯有了這些這個一個類似像教科書的一個這樣子的一個通譯資料庫的一個協助之後更重要的是他在翻譯的時候"},{"start":10146.144,"end":10170.792,"text":"他整個的一個他自己專業的精神應該怎麼做就像剛才這個陳允平也提到了就是說我們像我們有一些同意到那個警察局去可是你知道那個警察局在問案的時候我們的翻譯姐妹呢要被他們的就是會跟那個這個可能是犯罪人就是開始有一些溝通他們常常會私底下跟他講說姐姐我們都是同一個國家的人你應該要來幫我"},{"start":10175.353,"end":10175.814,"text":"第三個,我想"},{"start":10197.529,"end":10221.258,"text":"立刻呼籲一件事情不要等到這個計畫做現在的通譯在第一線的時候就有一些部分會面臨這個安全的問題譬如說像我們的在彰化8月份發生了一個這個半夜這個這個印尼移工啊二三十個人群毆然後這個還死人的這個事情翻譯姊妹到現場非常恐懼他一方面要看到這個影片"},{"start":10221.798,"end":10222.138,"text":"王主任"},{"start":10250.584,"end":10273.753,"text":"有些事我剛講過了第一個認為這個法院應該是一定要有配同意只要是這個移工或者是新住民如果檢察官或法官要問的話一定要確定他可以真的完全理解才可以不可以只是隨便問一句你懂國語嗎懂好不用分析這樣是絕對不行的我們剛前面都講過了有些還"},{"start":10274.773,"end":10275.113,"text":"醫院也必須有翻譯"},{"start":10302.376,"end":10330.533,"text":"我特別要求剛剛這個衛福部講的我還是不太滿意就是你們講的講法是說希望醫院自己來平和如果可以的話由醫院自己來聘用可是這整個是因為國家的制度你不應該是讓各級醫院由自己的能力來聘如果要用各級能力來如果是完全讓自己來平衡的話那我想可能只有大的醫院比較有錢的醫院才有可能那他們都不一定會做現在醫院做的是排班的志工那志工其實也是很"},{"start":10331.434,"end":10332.615,"text":"因為這些人他可能對他的病痛或者傷害是有關係的他是有利害衝突的"},{"start":10361.249,"end":10361.269,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10384.036,"end":10384.176,"text":"主席"},{"start":10402.454,"end":10429.15,"text":"謝謝王主任剛剛王主任提到一點就是說所以我們為什麼今天要開這個公聽會因為我們看到了一些通譯跟翻譯的亂象但這亂象來自於哪裡呢就是各級醫院各級單位各自處理問題就出在這邊了所以才會說為什麼我們需要國家能夠來支持這個部分由國家來主導來支持然後讓這個通譯的制度更加的完善"},{"start":10429.71,"end":10433.352,"text":"好,那還有沒有?來,我們...運興基金會主席好,我想,第一個我想要先回應剛簽評提出來的,就是那個長照的這個相關的資訊其實要給新住民,要翻譯成多語,其實這個建議其實反映一件事情,其實不是每位新住民他都能夠通曉華語,不管他來到台灣多久,每個人他的能力"},{"start":10458.41,"end":10459.311,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":10486.607,"end":10486.627,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10508.16,"end":10508.18,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10538.08,"end":10538.42,"text":"立法院第11會議"},{"start":10555.903,"end":10556.463,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":10579.591,"end":10579.691,"text":"一樓的這個詞會那麼複雜"},{"start":10597.799,"end":10597.819,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10622.828,"end":10623.549,"text":"通譯可以成為一個專業嗎?"},{"start":10641.886,"end":10641.986,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10665.248,"end":10665.268,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10687.108,"end":10692.39,"text":"謝謝我們李主任還有沒有第二次發言的專家學者沒有很謝謝我們所有專家學者跟我們部會長官的參與讓公聽會能夠順利圓滿的結束"},{"start":10710.168,"end":10710.728,"text":"委員提供書面資料"},{"start":10740.508,"end":10740.528,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10762.325,"end":10762.365,"text":"公聽會結束"},{"start":10936.399,"end":10937.105,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}