{"error":false,"id":["153307"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153307,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153307","日期":"2024-05-30","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-30T09:24:16+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-30T09:33:17+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:01","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba766f5b8d19795c301766e5648a1e6b71beba37a180c9b1cd21a9fc2fa37df4075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:24:16 - 09:33:17","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":31,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時24分）謝謝主席。我是不是請一下我們劉主委？"],["主席：我們請主委。你站起來然後敬禮，然後回到發言臺。"],["邱委員議瑩：沒關係，慢慢來，需要一點時間適應。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委早。今天主委花了大概24分鐘的時間做了一個非常詳盡，也跟過去我們看到的國發會報告不太一樣，我大概看了一下，您花了其實相當多的篇幅在講所謂的IC設計跟產業鏈供應等等的問題。我相信您來自業界，你花了這麼多的時間在這些篇幅上面，這未來是不是就是您所領導的國發會裡頭最重要或者是第一項要全力去推動的業務，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。主委，請您看一下，COMPUTEX會在6月4日到6月7日舉辦，今年舉辦應該會是有史以來CEO最多的一屆，而且也是最大咖的一屆，包括超微的董事長蘇姿丰、英特爾（Intel）執行長季辛格（Pat Gelsinger）、NVIDIA（輝達）執行長黃仁勳與Arm（安謀）執行長哈斯（Rene Haas）等等，這麼多AI的巨頭，CEO齊聚在臺灣。剛剛您的報告裡頭其實也講得非常的清楚，AI伺服器的產業在全球的市場裡頭，臺灣扮演一個非常重要的角色。根據經濟部發表的資料，臺灣的AI伺服器的製造是占全球的90%左右，包括美系的這些伺服器的品牌，全部都是依賴臺灣的代工，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以這個產業對臺灣來講，不只是經濟發展的命脈，我覺得它也擔負了很重要的國安發展的責任。主委，您同意我的看法嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：完全同意。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。主委，我想再請教您，這個是歐洲商會在大概一個多月前吧？他們的專欄裡頭提出，現在在立法院裡頭，因為有國民黨跟民眾黨兩個黨推出的藐視國會罪，未來如果外商公司不配合立法院的調查或是有任何觸怒立委的行為都會有藐視國會的風險存在。剛剛我們講到了這麼多的AI設計、這麼多的伺服器、這麼多的IC產業鏈，這不只是臺灣的經濟命脈，也是臺灣的國安命脈。根據我們前天5月28日通過的條文，其中第四十八條是法人、人民團體或社會上有關係人員違反本法規定，於立法院調閱文件、資料及檔案時拒絕、拖延或隱匿不提供者，立法院院會可以處以新臺幣一萬元以上十萬元以下罰鍰，並按次處罰到改正為止。甚至第五十九條之五還規定聽證人員不得拒絕，無正當理由缺席、拒絕表達意見、拒絕證言、拒絕提供資料者，按次處罰。這是5月28日通過的條文。主委，你應該也看到了，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，我請教你，如果照這個條文通過，剛剛我們講的那些IC設計的產業業者，如果立法院的委員要求他提供資料，他能不能不提供，可不可以？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：按照這個條文來看，好像是不能。"],["邱委員議瑩：如果我要求輝達提供它的產品研發流程、它他的高科技製程流程，它能不能不提供？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：從這個條文來看，不能。"],["邱委員議瑩：台積電能不能不提供？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前看是不能。"],["邱委員議瑩：營業機密，台積電的全球布局、聯發科的全球布局、穩茂的全球布局、日月光的全球布局，能不能不提供？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前看是不能。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，如果主委講到依照這個法令，它不能不提供的話，那會造成什麼影響？你可以預估嗎？國發會，你們一天到晚在預估，我下一個問題是經濟的成長，景氣燈號要變成黃紅燈了，越來越熱。如果依照5月28日立法院通過的這個法條，您個人覺得會對臺灣的整體投資環境造成什麼樣的影響？外資還敢不敢來？您剛剛講的那一大堆，什麼護國神山、護國產業，這一些東西到底能不能做得下去？主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：OK。謝謝委員，這個問題的確是必須要注意的，我自己私底下有去問一些廠商，主要關鍵我個人認為因為大家對整個訊息不夠明確，因為越模糊越緊張、越擔心，從來沒有過的，第一次發生也會擔心，所以多多少少因為不明確，大家是有很擔心的地方，這是的確有，至於會不會影響產業，可能還要再多觀察。我的看法是如果將來有實施細則或更明確的說明時，如果內容是讓廠商覺得可以釋疑，應該就影響不大，但是如果我們沒有比較明確的實施細則去執行，還是在模糊的語言上，可能會有一些擔心。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委，這沒有實施細則啊！如果我現在覺得你對我的回答，我不滿意啊！對不對？我現在覺得您的回答是在「糊弄」啊！你還要我提供你實施細則，你本來就應該自己準備好了，還要提供什麼實施細則？我隨時告你藐視國會啊！這就是這一條法令。立法委員要人家的全球布局幹嘛？立法委員要人家精密製程的機密幹嘛？甚至立法委員還可以要求國防部公布飛彈部署的機密，要這些東西幹嘛？幫誰要的？這些東西拿出去以後，臺灣會產生什麼樣的重大危機？這是這一條法令最大的問題所在。所以您擔任國發會主委，其實您應該要更清楚地去瞭解，甚至透過各種不同的管道在跟這些產業座談的時候，要讓他們知道這樣的法令其實是重大危害臺灣的民主及國家安全，甚至危害臺灣的投資環境。您作為一個國家發展的重要部會首長，您應該要更清楚地瞭解。我剛剛講你藐視國會，那是反串，你不要以為我真的認為你是藐視國會喔。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["邱委員議瑩：我怕你今天初來乍到會被我嚇到，我很清楚地告訴你，那個是反串。但是你不要以為這不會發生，這未來就是真真實實會在立法院上演。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：這些東西如果我們不能盡其所能地保護好的話，我們就是開了一個大洞，讓想要透過這樣的產業鏈入侵臺灣的人很順理成章、甚至很輕而易舉地就來攻破臺灣所有的IC產業鏈，攻破臺灣所有的優勢，這個是國發會未來要密切、密切注意的一個地方。確保投資環境的安全，確保臺灣產業鏈的永續發展，確保臺灣在IC產業設計上面的優勢，這個不只您今天講的報告裡面，這個完全未來會是您在所有推動的政策上面的重中之重，我們一起共同勉勵，主委，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，是，謝謝。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。來，請下來，謝謝。然後再敬個禮，謝謝。然後再回座。謝謝。","接下來我們請第2位鄭正鈐委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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對不對所以這個產業對臺灣來講它不只是經濟發展的命脈我覺得它也擔負了很重要的"},{"start":141.806,"end":151.404,"text":"國安發展的這樣的一個責任主委您同意我的看法嗎?完全同意好 來主委我想再請教您"},{"start":153.272,"end":178.924,"text":"這個是歐洲商會在大概一個多月前吧他們的專欄裡頭提出現在在立法院裡頭呢因為有國民黨跟民眾黨兩個黨推出的藐視國會罪未來如果外商公司不配合立法院的調查或是有任何觸怒立委的行為都會有這樣的一個風險存在都會有藐視國會的風險存在好"},{"start":182.946,"end":207.748,"text":"剛剛我們講到了這麼多的AI設計這麼多的伺服器這麼多的這個IC產業鏈這不只是台灣的經濟命脈也是台灣的國安命脈根據我們前天5月28號通過的條文裡頭第48條法人人民團體或社會上有關係人員違反本法規定的時候與立法院調閱文件資料及檔案時"},{"start":208.809,"end":229.512,"text":"遭拒絕拖延或隱匿不提供者．立法院院會可以處以新台幣1萬元以上．到10萬元以下罰還．並按次處罰到改正為止．甚至第59條還規定聽證人員不得拒絕．無正當理由缺席拒絕表達意見．拒絕證言、拒絕提供資料者．"},{"start":230.313,"end":255.554,"text":"按次處罰這是5月28日通過的條文嘛主委您應該也看到了嘛對不對是的好我請教你如果照這個條文通過剛剛我們講的那些IC設計的產業業者如果立法院的委員要求他提供資料他能不能不提供可不可以"},{"start":256.971,"end":283.062,"text":"按照這個條文來看好像是不能如果我要求回答提供他的產品研發流程他的高科技製程流程能不能不提供從這個條文來看不能台積電能不能不提供目前看是不能營業機密、台積電的全球佈局聯發科的全球佈局、文貿的全球佈局日月光的全球佈局"},{"start":284.246,"end":297.797,"text":"能不能不提供?目前看是不能如果主委您講到依照這個法令它不能不提供的話那會造成什麼影響?你可以預估嗎?國發會你們一天到晚在預估這個我現在下一個問題是經濟的成長景氣燈號要變成這個黃紅燈了越來越熱"},{"start":307.551,"end":307.571,"text":"來,諸位。"},{"start":333.926,"end":347.75,"text":"謝謝委員 這個問題的確是必須要去注意的那我自己私底下有去問一些廠商那主要關鍵我個人認為因為大家對整個訊息不夠明確"},{"start":349.37,"end":377.341,"text":"大家因為越模糊越緊越擔心嘛從來沒有過的第一次發生也會擔心所以多多少少因為不明確大家是有很擔心的地方這是的確有那至於會不會影響產業可能還要再多觀察那我的看法是說如果將來有實施細則或更明確的說明的時候那如果內容是讓廠商覺得可以適宜的話"},{"start":377.961,"end":379.944,"text":"主委 這沒有實施細則啊 如果我現在 我現在覺得你對我的回答我不滿意啊"},{"start":396.906,"end":421.443,"text":"對不對我現在覺得您的回答是在呼嚨啊你還要我提供你實施細則你本來就應該自己準備好了還要提供什麼實施細則我隨時告你藐視國會啊這就是這一條法令啊立法委員要人家的全球布局幹嘛立法委員要人家的機密製程的機密幹嘛甚至立法委員還可以要求國防部公布飛彈部署的機密要這些東西幹嘛幫誰要的"},{"start":425.307,"end":452.519,"text":"這些東西拿出去以後台灣會產生一個什麼樣的重大危機這是這一條法令最大的問題所在所以您擔任國發會的主委其實您應該要更清楚的去了解甚至透過各種不同的管道在跟這些產業座談的時候讓他們知道這樣的一個法令"},{"start":453.823,"end":482.03,"text":"其實是重大危害台灣的民主跟危害台灣的國家安全甚至危害台灣的投資環境您作為一個國家發展的重要的部會首長您應該要更清楚的了解我剛剛講你藐視國會那是反串你不要以為我真的認為你是藐視國會我怕你這個今天出來炸到會被我嚇到我是很清楚告訴你那個是反串但是你不要以為這不會發生"},{"start":484.54,"end":494.457,"text":"這未來就是真真實實會在立法院上演啦這些東西我們如果不能盡其所能的保護好的話我們就是開了一個大洞讓"},{"start":497.046,"end":520.545,"text":"想要透過這樣的一個產業鏈入侵台灣的人很順理成章甚至很輕而易舉的就來攻破台灣所有的IC產業鏈攻破台灣所有的優勢這個是國發會未來要密切密切注意的一個地方確保投資環境的安全確保台灣的產業鏈的永續發展確保台灣在IC設計產業上面的優勢"},{"start":527.03,"end":540.366,"text":"這個不只是您今天講的這個報告裡面這個完全未來會是您在所有推動的政策上面的重中之重我們一起共同勉勵好不好主委是謝謝委員好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}