{"error":false,"id":["153309"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153309,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153309","日期":"2024-05-30","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-28","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":28,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-30T09:18:23+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-30T09:36:49+08:00","影片長度":"00:18:26","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba3bc163181fd467244869c0f3e297fc60beba37a180c9b1cd75fef83deab52e115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:18:23 - 09:36:49","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":262,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時18分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請司法院秘書長。"],["主席：有請秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員早安。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長早。我們延續昨天因為時間不夠，沒有處理完的問題，這件事情非常的重要，因為牽涉到審判的獨立跟法定法官原則的界限。之前曾經請教過秘書長，刑事訴訟法在承審的個案當中，有依照法律應自行迴避，也有當事人聲請迴避的事由，但沒有一種是上級的長官施壓迴避。針對金融重犯鍾文智炒作TDR遭重判十幾年的這個案子，在過程當中我收到檢舉，這個鍾文智非常的囂張，不僅去找立法委員幫他脫罪、提個案式的修法，甚至在個案當中，還有法官（上級的法官）施壓承審法官，要他上簽迴避。","這件事情我公開提出質詢以後，高等法院當天喔，當天喔，就發一個澄清的新聞稿說純屬誤會，我看完他們的新聞稿以後，我老實講，我是不知道我有哪裡誤會。接下來司法及法制委員會這邊也通過了臨時提案，要司法院回去做調查報告。昨天我們討論到說你們調查報告的結果出來，我們先來看看被施壓的法官是怎麼說的。被施壓的法官說：「洪庭長跟我說他與李院長討論過了，李院長指示要我上簽自請迴避。」被施壓的法官被指示要上簽自請迴避。然後被施壓的法官還說他感到錯愕，有對洪庭長表示，此案當事人有聲請迴避，聲請迴避案件已被駁回，抗告最高法院也被駁回確定，不應再自請迴避，結果洪庭長還是跟他講，你上個簽就對了。秘書長，可以這樣做嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：昨天有向委員說明，就這一件事，司法院綜合相關的資料整體來評斷的結果，認為這個洪庭長跟李院長是出於關心……"],["黃委員國昌：先等一下，我們昨天就討論到這裡。是出於關心，個人主觀的動機是什麼，那是另外一回事，我現在的問題是，上級的法官可以要要求承審法官自請迴避嗎？可以做這件事嗎？在法規上可以做這件事嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為我昨天有向委員說明，就是根據當時的「臺灣高等法院分案實施要點」第十點第四款，臺灣高等法院法官會議就法官有應自行迴避事由外，其他可能有偏頗之虞的情形，事先以抽象規定得由院長酌情准許法官簽請迴避……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下喔！秘書長，你講到高等法院的分案要點，我們是法律人，要把法條講清楚，因為你剛剛對那個法條的描述根本不正確。為什麼我說不正確？你說按照第十點第四款，來，我們來看一下第十點第四款，「法官於當事人聲請迴避經裁定駁回後，自行簽請迴避……均不予准許。但情形特殊者，得由院長酌情准許之。」請問一下，第十條第四款是法官自行簽請，還是上面可以要求他上簽？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個根據我們本院綜合的判斷……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我現在在講的是，你剛剛援引第十點第四款，我們就依法論法，先不要講你們事實認定的部分，回來這個法條。剛剛我就說了，上級的院長、行政庭長可以幹這件事嗎？然後你提到了高等法院分案要點的第十點第四款，我現在把第十點第四款show在ppt上給您看，我請教的問題是，這個是由承審的法官自行簽請，還是上級法官要求上簽，這個法規的規範內容是什麼？請教秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：根據本院就這個法規的解讀，是認為這個是經過臺灣高等法院法官會議，就法官有應自行迴避事由之外，其他可能有偏頗之虞的情形，事先以抽象規定得由院長來酌情准許法官……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有喔，你把前面的要件搞混了嘛！我再唸一次：「法官於當事人聲請迴避經裁定駁回後，自行簽請迴避……均不予准許。」你有看到嗎？你要先看本文啊。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我向委員說明，就是本院的解讀是認為，這個是事先以抽象規定得由院長酌情准許法官簽請迴避。"],["黃委員國昌：對，得由院長酌情准許的前提是什麼，是不是法官自行簽請？"],["吳秘書長三龍：本院的解讀剛剛就有向委員說明，我們在書面報告也是有這樣的說明啦！"],["黃委員國昌：你說明了什麼？現在我的問題很具體啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是我們……"],["黃委員國昌：現在這個條文，院長要准許的前提是法官他要簽請，我現在的問題就來啦！他的前提不是要法官自行簽請嗎？這個條文有授權院長可以指示行政庭長去要求法官上簽嗎？這麼簡單的法律問題，你可以在這邊繞這麼久。"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個是本院在報告第二點裡面有說明，就臺灣高等法院分案實施要點第十點第四款規定，我們有把它列出來，我們的解讀是認為這個是法官會議，就法官有應自行迴避事由之外，其他可能有偏頗之虞的情形，事先以抽象規定，得由院長酌情准許法官簽請迴避。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起喔！秘書長，我在這邊就真的要把你打斷了，你一直唸一樣的稿，完全不願意面對我的問題來予以回答，我連法規寫在上面，白紙黑字寫得這麼清楚，我一直問你第十點第四款是法官自行簽請上去，還是院長可以要求他上簽？連這麼關鍵而基本的問題，你都不願意正面回應喔！在這個個案當中，我直接跟秘書長講，你們為了一個個案扭曲整個法律的解釋，這是為什麼我一直講這件事情茲事體大，不是只是關心這個個案，為了一個個案，司法院可以針對第十點第四款做這樣扭曲的解釋，秘書長，我無法同意，沒有關係，我們今天在這邊的詢答，第十點第四款法規怎麼解釋的、法規怎麼規定、應該要怎麼解釋，我今天在這邊提出的問題，全國法官都可以公評，你所提出來的回答也必須要接受所有法官的檢驗，我們的司法院如果對第十點第四款是這樣解釋的話，對不起啊！以後事情大條了，所有的院長、庭長，大家都可以比附援引，因為我們司法院的秘書長這樣告訴全國的法官，第十點第四款可以這樣解釋，以後院長、行政庭長都可以下去關心，告訴承審的法官，你是不是要上簽自請迴避。","秘書長，我再跟你講一次，針對您今天這樣的回答，我沒有辦法同意，當然每個人有不同的法律見解，我的看法跟你的看法針對這件事情、這個條款的解釋，要接受全國法官的公評，連你們自己的調查報告都承認是要求他上簽，要求他上簽，從頭到尾就不是第十點第四款，那個法官自己上簽，自己上簽以後，院長例外的准許他可以迴避，我有說錯嗎？秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，我們在第三點，三之一、三之二裡面都有提到，因為當時紀法官因為他是二審受命法官，那麼他曾經在第一審……"],["黃委員國昌：這個在聲請迴避的事由，法院不是都裁定過了嗎？最高法院都維持不用迴避的見解啊！現在是什麼？現在是你們高等法院的院長跟行政庭長可以繞過最高法院的裁定，然後自己去創造了跟最高法院的裁定不一樣的法律見解，去施壓承審法官自請迴避，可以這樣做嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，我們在這個第三點有說明，因為在那一段時間紀法官他確實因為另外還有跟前妻之間的家庭事件紛爭，還有剛剛提到他曾經在下級審參與過14次的審理……"],["黃委員國昌：這些所有的事由，當事人如果不服要聲請迴避的時候，都可以列為法定事由嘛！都可以在聲請狀寫嘛！最高法院都已經裁定駁回了。所以現在我在質疑的是當你們開了這扇門等於是說什麼，高等法院的院長、行政庭庭長可以繞過最高法院，繞過最高法院創造法律所沒有的事由去施壓承審法官自請迴避，嚴重破壞了法定法官的原則，涉及了審判核心事項，我有說錯嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，我們在第三點有說明，綜合起來洪庭長跟李院長是出於關心、保護而建議啦！"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就說嘛！以後大家都是關心啦！以後不會有什麼施壓啦！大家都是關心啦！用關心兩個字就可以侵害法定法官原則，就可以施壓基層的法官自請迴避，我看不下去啊！你這樣的解釋，大家可不可以接受，我說過，我講最後一次，全國法官都會公評。","接下來，地方民事強制執行事件收案情況，我上次帶秘書長看過了，從2022年開始暴增，到2023年的時候，整個狀況已經不可收拾，我那個時候問司法院，請問你們做了什麼？請問你們做了什麼？你們一直沒有給我正面的答復，結果呢？基層同仁，我說過我收到民事執行處基層同仁的憤怒，他們可能下情沒有辦法上達，所以我利用質詢的時間跟秘書長報告，從2022年年底到2023年年底，整整一年的困境，他們在講的困境是什麼？就是這個圖，就是這個圖，從每個月新收到未結快速的累積增加，從2022到2023，結果司法院視而不見，到2024年2月才進行調查。我第一次質詢你的時候，我就請教司法院做了什麼？我請教司法院做了什麼？我從你們這邊得不到答案，我從地方執行處的同仁那邊直接得到答案，這個不是我說的，下情可能沒有辦法上達，我幫他們反映，然後來看一下他們的班表，每天晚上加班，星期五加班到晚上10點，禮拜六、禮拜天再來，這個是他們在你們的差勤系統裡面輸入的時間，這不是我偽造、變造的，這是你們司法院法院內部加班系統的電磁紀錄，2023年的時候是這樣，來，你看那個時間嘛！2023年，然後我還特別挑了一二三四五六日，每天都加、每天都加，2023年是這樣。我們再看一下2024年，2024年一樣，幾乎每天加班，六日繼續來連著上班，根本沒有假日，來，我請教一下秘書長，現在在地方法院民事執行處這一些民事執行處的同仁他們報加班時數的上限，請教秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，都是我們司法院的同仁啦！我們當然都是很關心，然後這一段期間因為突然案件暴增……"],["黃委員國昌：你到2024年才關心嘛！這人家講的嘛！"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個一直都有在反映啦，那我們民事廳也都有跟臺北地院的院長、庭長，我們都很緊密……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！請你針對問題回答，加班時數的上限是多少？"],["吳秘書長三龍：至於加班時數，這一部分當然就是在法規面有一定的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是多少？"],["吳秘書長三龍：至於像這些特殊情形如何在法規面之外，另外有……"],["黃委員國昌：我再請教一下秘書長，執行處的同仁可以報加班時數的上限是多少？我已經問第3次了。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員假如有需要，我們也會再提供啦！你提示的我們會提供……"],["黃委員國昌：答案我知道，我現在在挑戰的是答案你知不知道？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為我們當然會儘量設法來……如何來……"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪！我在問具體的問題，然後你全部在講形容詞，主席站起來，我要尊重主席，但我還要拜託主席可以指示秘書長回答嗎？主席，我的問題有很刁鑽嗎？加班時數上限是多少小時，請問秘書長是多少？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這些上限畢竟有一定規定啦！有一些詳細的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以是多少？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為講起來我們人事處有比較精準的數字，因為這些……"],["主席：國昌，是不是可以請他請同仁救援一下，因為這個上限，我們以前是一個固定的嘛！這大家都知道，不敢報錯啊！每個人應該都很清楚。"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為今天的專題本來是就少年這個部分……"],["主席：是不是有同仁可以來幫忙？"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！我最後跟秘書長講，你秘書長是總管所有的行政事務，這件事情，有關民事執行處案件累積的問題，我相信不同的召委排專報，你來這邊最少兩次，我絕對不會記錯，我今天如果第一次問你問題，我問這樣子，可能是我不對，整個問題在司法及法制委員會討論過幾次，甚至還開了公聽會！結果你作為司法院的秘書長，我就來挑戰你知不知道基層同仁的心聲、基層同仁的困境嘛。","最後，我只講一件事，秘書長，你可不可以承諾，你花個時間，你不是說你們4月的時候增加了7個股嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，你們4月增加了7個股，我只拜託秘書長，隨便找一天時間花1個小時，去臺北地院的民事執行處聽所有基層同仁的心聲，加了這7個股以後，對他們的幫助有多大，你找這些人力派遣公司的人去，真的有辦法幫他們解決他們現在工作的困境嗎？你不用聽我說，你願不願意花1個小時的時間去臺北地院的民事執行處聽他們的心聲？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我會去，我會去。"],["黃委員國昌：會嘛？"],["吳秘書長三龍：會。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。秘書長你要去的時候通知我一下，我陪你去。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員，這個看委員方便的時間隨時都可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，不用、不用，我配合秘書長，秘書長你比較忙，不要去打擾他們工作，1個小時的時間去聽他們的心聲，我陪你去。"],["吳秘書長三龍：謝謝，我一定配合。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。秘書長，這個相關的數據，有關加班的上限，秘書長請去問一下，這是一個很簡單的問題，全國的公務員、法官、檢察官加班有上限，這是很基本的一件事，所以可能麻煩秘書長瞭解一下。第二件事情，他們的辛苦，我不知道司法院高層聽不聽得到？"],["吳秘書長三龍：都聽得到啦。"],["主席：但是我照三餐在聽以前的法官、檢察官同學在抱怨，黃國昌剛剛講的這個東西，我覺得不只他，我大概也都聽到爆炸了啦。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我也是感同身受啦……"],["主席：但是跟秘書長報告一件事情，我以前這些同學跟我講的都是說司法院永遠不管他們，都把這些丟給法官讓他們去死，每個人都在抱怨這個，然後他們說更悲哀的是要找一個檢方出身的人來幫他們講話。所以我覺得是不是麻煩一下，這個要當一件事情在處理。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們當然會聆聽。"],["主席：我不想法官體系或檢察官體系再有第二件不幸的事發生，好嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對，因為我們現在司法院所屬法院繁忙、血汗的部門確實都相當多，那要照料的當然……"],["主席：是。秘書長，我上次已經跟秘書長還有蔡部長說過，問題在制度，不是補人啦！補人是長官騙部屬的方式，補人是用國家的錢，是浪費國家的錢請一堆人來啦，那都不叫解決問題，補人都不用動頭腦嘛！我說加人不用動頭腦，你要動頭腦的是怎麼去改制度，要麻煩各位長官思考一下，因為我們有很多制度是疊床架屋，把那些廢掉，可以騰出很多人力跟這些法官、檢察官的時間，好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：好，沒問題，發現問題，我們一定要解決問題。"],["主席：是，麻煩你們這個要當一件事情處理，謝謝秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：不好意思。","下一位我們請翁曉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-28","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","林月琴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","陳俊宇","謝龍介","沈發惠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─\n如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135401_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.00971875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.020968750000002,"end":12.771593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.46346875,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.98596875,"end":18.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.00284375,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.96471875,"end":24.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.22534375,"end":27.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.17846875,"end":34.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.759718750000005,"end":37.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.67909375,"end":48.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.985343750000006,"end":51.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.32659375,"end":53.119718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.60909375,"end":56.258468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.61284375,"end":58.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.51971875,"end":61.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.265968750000006,"end":65.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.75909375,"end":68.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.10034375000001,"end":74.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.61846875,"end":88.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.49784375,"end":91.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.89846875,"end":92.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.51846875000001,"end":94.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.12159375,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.63596875,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.55971875,"end":104.45346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.09471875000001,"end":107.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.67659375000001,"end":118.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.30346875000001,"end":121.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.22284375000001,"end":124.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.66971875,"end":125.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.15034375,"end":129.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.88409375,"end":131.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.92596875,"end":133.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.42346875,"end":135.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.38096875000002,"end":138.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.63784375,"end":143.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.02534375000002,"end":144.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.08846875,"end":146.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.07971875,"end":148.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.19346875000002,"end":149.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.35346875000002,"end":151.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.95659375,"end":153.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.79596875000001,"end":156.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.27221875,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.41534375,"end":160.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.38534375,"end":162.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.24596875,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.70971875,"end":165.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.41846875000002,"end":166.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.87409375000001,"end":169.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.67534375000002,"end":172.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01"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你把前面的要件搞混了嘛"},{"start":358.61,"end":369.163,"text":"我再唸一次法關於當事人申請迴避經裁定駁回後自行簽請迴避均不予准許你有看到嗎"},{"start":370.916,"end":395.131,"text":"你要先看本文啊這個那我向委員說明就是本院的解讀齁是認為這個是事先以抽象規定齁得由院長酌情准許法官簽情對啊得由院長酌情准許的前提是什麼是不是法官自行簽情那本院的解讀就有向剛剛委員說明就我們在書面報告也是"},{"start":396.127,"end":398.47,"text":"現在這個條文院長要准許的前提是法官他要簽請"},{"start":409.381,"end":431.128,"text":"我現在的問題就來啦他的前提不是要法官自行簽請嗎這個條文有授權院長可以指示提行政庭長去要求法官上簽嗎這麼簡單的法律問題你可以在這邊繞這麼久這個是本院在這個報告說明這個第二點裡面有說明齁就是就這個"},{"start":432.833,"end":433.153,"text":"對不起喔!秘書長!"},{"start":462.759,"end":489.856,"text":"我在這邊就真的要把你打斷了你一直念一樣的稿完全不願意面對我的問題來予以回答我連法規寫在上面白紙黑字寫得這麼清楚我一直問你第10點第4款是法官自行簽請上去還是院長可以要求他上簽連這麼關鍵而基本的問題你都不願意正面迴避喔"},{"start":490.765,"end":516.342,"text":"在這個個案當中我直接跟秘書長講你們為了一個個案扭曲整個法律的解釋這是為什麼我一直講這件事情知識體大不是只是關係這個個案為了一個個案司法院可以針對有關於第4點第4款做這樣扭曲的解釋"},{"start":518.803,"end":535.523,"text":"秘書長我無法同意沒有關係啊我們今天在這邊的詢答第10點第4款法規怎麼解釋的法規怎麼規定應該要怎麼解釋我今天在這邊提出的問題全國法官都可以公平"},{"start":536.448,"end":559.668,"text":"你所提出來的回答也必須要接受所有法官的檢驗我們的司法院如果對第10點第4款是這樣解釋的話對不起啊以後事情大條啦所有的院長、庭長大家都可以筆覆援引因為我們司法院的秘書長這樣告訴全國的法官啊"},{"start":560.589,"end":572.578,"text":"第10點第4款可以這樣解釋啊以後院長、行政廷長都可以下去關心啊告訴陳審的法官啊你是不是要上千字請迴避啊"},{"start":574.67,"end":591.704,"text":"秘書長我再跟你講一次針對您今天這樣的回答我沒有辦法同意當然每個人有不同的法律見解我的看法跟你的看法針對這件事情這個條款的解釋要接受全國法官的公平"},{"start":592.845,"end":619.374,"text":"連你們自己的調查報告都承認是要求他上簽的要求他上簽的從頭到尾就不是第10點第4款那個法官自己上簽自己上簽以後院長例外的准許他可以迴避我有說錯嗎秘書長因為向委員說明我們在這個第三點三之一、三之二裡面都有提到因為當時這個"},{"start":629.659,"end":644.493,"text":"這個在申請迴避的事由法院不是都裁定過了嗎?最高法院都維持了不用迴避的見解啊現在是什麼?現在是你們高等法院的院長跟行政庭長可以繞過最高法院的裁定喔?"},{"start":645.194,"end":646.055,"text":"這些所有的事由啊"},{"start":675.474,"end":691.565,"text":"當事人如果不服要申請迴避的時候都可以列為法定事由嗎?都可以在申請狀寫嗎?阿最高法院都已經裁定駁回了所以我現在我在質疑的是當你們開了這扇門等於是說什麼?"},{"start":692.446,"end":709.686,"text":"高等法院的院長、行政庭庭長可以繞過最高法院繞過最高法院創造法律所沒有的事由去施壓層層法官自請迴避嚴重破壞了法定法官的原則涉及了審判核心事項"},{"start":721.878,"end":737.663,"text":"所以我就說嘛以後大家都是關心啦以後不會有什麼施壓啦大家都是關心啦用關心兩個字就可以侵害法定法官原則就可以施壓基層的法官自請迴避喔我看不下去啊"},{"start":738.752,"end":767.843,"text":"你這樣的解釋大家可不可以接受我說過我講最後一次全國法官啊都會公平接下來地方民事強制執行事件收案情況我上次帶秘書長講過看過了齁從2022年開始暴增到2023年的時候整個狀況已經不可收拾了我那個時候問司法院請問你們做了什麼請問你們做了什麼你們一直沒有給我正面的答覆"},{"start":769.586,"end":791.674,"text":"結果呢基層同仁我說過我收到民事執行處基層同仁的憤怒他們可能下棋沒有辦法上打所以我利用質詢的時間啊我跟秘書長報告從2022年年底到2023年年底整整一年的困境他們在講的困境是什麼就是這個圖就是這個圖"},{"start":796.105,"end":814.205,"text":"從每個月新收到未結快速的累積增加從2022到2023結果司法院視而不見到2024年2月才進行調查我第一次質詢你的時候我就請教司法院做了什麼"},{"start":815.026,"end":832.933,"text":"我請教司法院做了什麼我從你們這邊得不到答案我從地方執行處的同仁那邊直接得到答案這個不是我說的下情可能沒有辦法上達我幫他們反映然後來看一下他們的班表每天晚上加班"},{"start":834.335,"end":861.581,"text":"星期五加班到晚上10點禮拜六、禮拜天再來這個是他們在你們的財情系統裡面輸入的時間這不是我偽造變造的這是你們司法院法院內部加班系統的電池紀錄2023年的時候是這樣來你看那個時間嘛2023年然後我還特別挑了1、2、3、4、5、6日"},{"start":864.428,"end":886.94,"text":"1、2、3、4、5、6日每天都加每天都加2023年是這樣我們再看一下2024年2024年一樣幾乎每天加班6日繼續來連著上班根本沒有假日來我請教一下秘書長現在在地方法院民事執行處"},{"start":888.403,"end":914.822,"text":"這一些民事執行處的同仁他們報加班時數的上限請教秘書長像委員說明都是我們司法院的同仁我們當然都是很關心然後這一段期間因為突然案件你到2024年才關心嘛這人家講的嘛這個一直都有在反映啦那我們民視廳也都有跟臺北地院的院長、廳長"},{"start":917.145,"end":920.646,"text":"我再請教一下秘書長執行處的同仁可以報加班時數的上限是多少?"},{"start":945.287,"end":973.093,"text":"我已經問第三次了因為委員假如有需要我們會再提供啦我們提示的答案我知道我現在在挑戰的是答案你知不知道因為我們當然會盡量設法來來如何來奇怪我在問具體的問題然後你全部在講形容詞主席再強我要尊重主席但我要拜託主席可以指示秘書長回答嗎主席我的問題有很刁鑽嗎加班時數上限是多少小時請問秘書長是多少"},{"start":974.913,"end":1002.26,"text":"這些因為他上線畢竟有一定規定啦有一定詳細的規定所以是多少那因為講起來我們人事處有比較精準的那個數字啦吼因為這這些可以請他請同仁救援一下因為因為這個上線這我們以前是一個一個固定的嘛這大家都知道不敢報錯啊每個人應該都很清楚啊是不是有同仁可以來幫忙這有關係啦我最後跟秘書長講"},{"start":1004.141,"end":1016.44,"text":"你秘書長是總管所有的行政事務這一件事情喔你是執行出案件累積的問題我相信不同的召委你來這邊排專報大概最少兩次我絕對不會記錯"},{"start":1018.68,"end":1042.733,"text":"我今天如果第一次問你問題我問這樣子可能是我不對整個問題在司法法制委員會討論過幾次甚至還開了公聽會結果你作為司法院的秘書長我就在挑戰你知不知道基層同仁的心聲基層同仁的困境嘛來最後我只講一件事齁我只講一件事請秘書長你可不可以承諾"},{"start":1044.124,"end":1073.235,"text":"你花一個時間你說你們4月的時候不是增加了7個股嗎?對對嘛,好你們4月增加7個股我只拜託秘書長隨便找一天的時間花一個小時去台北地院的民事執行處聽所有基層同仁的心聲加了這7個股以後對他們的幫助有多大你找這些人力派遣公司的人去派你找這些人力派遣公司的人去真的"},{"start":1074.537,"end":1090.572,"text":"有辦法幫他們解決他們現在工作的困境嗎?你不用聽我說你願不願意花一個小時的時間去台北地院的民事執行處聽他們的心聲?這個我會去我會去會嗎?會會好 謝謝如果啦秘書長你要去的時候通知我一下我陪你去"},{"start":1092.393,"end":1093.375,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}