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10:28:52","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":475,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時18分）謝謝召委，我們請法務部次長。"],["主席：麻煩徐次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員早。"],["林委員思銘：次長早。我今天看到一則媒體的報導，我很訝異，這個報導是講有關屏東周典論涉及砸500萬替郭台銘買連署的審判庭開庭，當場勘驗當時的偵訊影像，他們去對照當時的偵訊筆錄，發覺到檢方對周品全說，他是那時候潮州鎮的鎮長，去勘驗他的偵訊影像時，檢方對周品全說「以大局為重，給我一點處理時間查證」、「涉及政治案件，不是我一個人可以決定」、「上面都同意，我們再放人」，這樣一個檢察官的表態，檢察官在偵訊的時候跟被告說這樣的話，次長，你有看清楚了？"],["徐次長錫祥：對，看清楚了。"],["林委員思銘：你覺得檢察官跟被告做這樣的表態，說這個案子不是他一個人可以決定的，要上面同意他才可以放人，所以這是不是政治力介入我們的司法？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我們的檢察官一定是按照刑事訴訟法在執行他的職務，這一個內容到底是什麼樣的內容，我們只是看到報紙的報導，而且這個案子都已經由法院法官在審理中……"],["林委員思銘：已經進入審判庭，所以才會勘驗光碟影像……"],["徐次長錫祥：我知道，報告委員，對於這種具體個案，我們的立場是不方便評論……"],["林委員思銘：當然次長個案你不方便評論，只是現在我們看到的證據，一分證據說一分話，現在你的檢察官竟然在開偵查庭的時候說出這樣子的話，他說這是政治案件，這個不是他一個人可以決定的，要上面同意，他們才可以放人。這個案子在偵辦的過程中，大家就質疑這是不是政治力介入？但是從這一個偵訊影像的勘驗，很明顯就是政治力介入嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，這個內容我們真的不曉得他是怎麼來的，報紙的報導怎麼來的，我們以後一定會以法官判決書的判決內容為主，如果有的話，我們一定會去瞭解。"],["林委員思銘：次長，這一屆的國會新氣象、新的民意，我們真的要期許法務部，不管是在偵查任何的案件，所有的案件，我真的要期許你們政治力不要介入，尤其不要辦藍不辦綠啦！"],["徐次長錫祥：委員請放心……"],["林委員思銘：這個讓人家感覺起來你們就是針對我們國民黨的委員、政治人物去偵辦嘛……"],["徐次長錫祥：剛剛跟委員報告過了，這個報紙的內容……我們一定是公正的，我們是行政中立，我們一定是公正的。"],["林委員思銘：好，你今天在這邊說，我們希望未來都可以看到我們的法務體系真的不再有政治力的介入。"],["徐次長錫祥：沒問題，不會。"],["林委員思銘：回到我們今天的主題，目前我們4所矯正學校敦品、誠正、勵志、明陽均為完全中學的概念，高中是以技職教育為主，我看你的報告說在學生入校後一個月內，會個案評估報告分析少年的背景以及處遇需求，以提供適當的輔導處遇。次長，我們少年的犯罪態樣非常多，每一種犯罪型態你要提供適合的輔導，比如我們現在看到少年詐欺的車手非常多，遽增嘛？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["林委員思銘：所以對於像這種類型的，不管是少年詐欺或者是性剝削相關的這些青少年犯罪者，要如何來輔導？你們是不是有做適性分類的輔導？"],["徐次長錫祥：有，我們會根據他的犯罪的類型，都會加以輔導，像詐欺好了，詐欺會牽扯到他的習性、他的價值觀、他的家庭環境等等，老師就會針對這個部分給他做一個完整的介紹說明以輔導他。"],["林委員思銘：我想在整個輔導過程中，除了詐欺以外，還有很多類型完全都不一樣，因為每個人的……"],["徐次長錫祥：都不一樣。"],["林委員思銘：或者是因為他精神狀態的問題或者是他心理情緒的問題而犯下各類型的犯罪，所以我們在輔導的過程中，我剛才看你的報告是有三級輔導處遇……"],["徐次長錫祥：我們有三級輔導，這算是第二級的輔導……"],["林委員思銘：但是你對於這些輔導，就是輔導的過程是不是真的能夠讓這些人不再犯罪，是不是真的能夠達到這個成效，這是我很關心的，我現在問你一個問題，這些受輔導者出來復歸社會之後，他的再犯率是多少你知不知道？有沒有做過統計？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，因為這些離開學校的學生如果再犯，如果他沒有進我們的學校，他只是在少年法庭這邊比如就已經請回了，他家長帶回去，類似像這樣的處理方式，他沒有進學校，我們學校沒有辦法拿到。"],["林委員思銘：我現在是說進學校、復歸社會之後，有沒有做過統計？"],["徐次長錫祥：我請周署長。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們原則上對於學生進入學校……"],["林委員思銘：再犯率的統計，有沒有做統計？"],["周署長輝煌：沒有詳細的數據。"],["林委員思銘：沒有詳細的數據嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：對，但是我們主要是……"],["林委員思銘：這樣啦，因為我看到你們目前的機制是出校後將持續追蹤一年。"],["周署長輝煌：是。"],["林委員思銘：以利穩固學生復歸社區、家庭的狀況，所以你要去追蹤嘛！去追蹤不用做統計喔？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，這個部分是少矯校的輔導教師或是社工師，會跟縣市政府的社工師做後追1年。"],["林委員思銘：署長，我想現在是大數據的時代，我建議未來這個要做，你才會知道這些孩子經過少年輔導學校，出去之後追蹤還有沒有繼續犯罪，這才能夠作為未來學校要如何改善，增進教育的課程，而不是現在訂了三級制度，但都沒有去考量出去之後還會不會再犯。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，後追的主要目的是要協助他、解決他的生活問題。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["周署長輝煌：至於他有沒有再犯罪，這個部分並不是最主要的目的。"],["林委員思銘：署長，我是說有了這個大數據的分析之後，可以作為以後學校在安排課程時，看是不是要加強輔導、怎麼樣深化輔導，要加強哪一種、哪一類型的教育，讓他不要再犯。"],["周署長輝煌：這個部分是不是可以讓我們……"],["林委員思銘：這不是學校教育的一個重點嗎？讓他進到我們的少年輔導矯正學校來念書，它的目的不是也要讓他們能夠回歸正常嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：可不可以容我們會後檢討相關法規，我們可以掌握的部分……"],["林委員思銘：這個統計，我希望你們一定要去做，好不好？這一定要去做。"],["周署長輝煌：不違背法規的部分，我們來研究。"],["林委員思銘：為什麼我會這樣問你，我跟你講一個數據，誠正中學在110年的統計資料顯示，安置1年的再犯率是55.35%，近2成的出校生會再次被收押，出校時間越長，再犯刑事案件的的犯罪率攀升，安置2年的再犯率為66.39%，安置3年的更高，達80%，且36.58%被再次收押。所以我要請問你，為什麼再犯率會這麼高？原因是什麼？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，這個資料我們是有相關的統計，安置大概是不到1%，我們最主要是轉銜復學跟就業最多，安置其實很少，我是不曉得這個數據是從哪邊來的。"],["林委員思銘：你不知道喔？我再告訴你，答案我知道，我會再告訴你。所以我要請教的是，目前是不是我們的追蹤、轉銜機制規範不夠健全，你剛剛講追蹤才1年嘛！"],["周署長輝煌：後追1年。"],["林委員思銘：對啊！才後追1年嘛，是不是這個時間不夠？，1年夠嗎？再犯率會這麼高，所以整個追蹤機制……"],["周署長輝煌：這個是我們依相關規定跨部會辦理的。"],["林委員思銘：這部分我是建議可能要在法規面或者法制面去研議是不是要延長，一看現行制度就不夠嘛！你不要跟我說是依照現行法規，我當然知道依照現行法規這樣規定啊！但是這看起來就是不夠完備嘛！所以我在這邊就建議你未來要去持續追蹤，只有1年，我們看起來就不夠，再犯率才會這麼高，這是環環相扣的嘛！所以持續追蹤的年限，我建議你可能要延長，好不好？"],["周署長輝煌：是，我們來研究看看。"],["林委員思銘：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來我們請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-28","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","林月琴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","陳俊宇","謝龍介","沈發惠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─\n如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135401_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.185343750000001,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.610968750000001,"end":14.965343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.965343750000002,"end":15.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.78284375,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.12346875,"end":30.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.35096875,"end":48.664718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.73221875,"end":50.993468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.330968750000004,"end":53.862218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.41909375,"end":56.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.27096875,"end":64.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.11784375,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.93159375,"end":74.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.24284375,"end":78.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.37721875000001,"end":82.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.85346875,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.05034375000001,"end":92.59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稍微我們請那個次長麻煩徐次長"},{"start":22.106,"end":28.209,"text":"市長早市長我今天看到一則媒體的報導我很訝異這個報導是講說這個屏東的有關周點輪的這個涉及砸500萬替郭台銘買連署的這一個審判庭的開庭他們當場勘驗那個當時的一個那個徵訊影像"},{"start":51.42,"end":51.521,"text":"據對照當時的偵訊筆錄發覺檢方"},{"start":57.575,"end":81.853,"text":"對周品全說那個周品全是那時候的潮州鎮的鎮長就是潮州鎮鎮長那麼去勘驗他的一個徵訊影像那檢方對周品全說以大局為重給我一點處理時間查證涉及政治案件不是我一個人決定上面都同意我們在放人"},{"start":83.215,"end":110.645,"text":"這樣的一個檢察官的一個表態檢察官在偵訊的時候跟被告說這樣的話市長所以這樣子這段你有看清楚了那你覺得檢察官會做這樣的一個表態跟被告來表態說這個案子是他一個人不可以決定要上面同意他才可以放人"},{"start":111.744,"end":135.898,"text":"所以這是不是政治力介入我們的司法報告委員 我們檢察官一定是按照刑事訴訟法在執行他的職務這一個內容到底是什麼樣的內容我們只是看到報紙的報告我想而且這個案子都已經是法院的法官在審理中已經進入審判庭所以才會去再勘驗這個我知道"},{"start":138.86,"end":158.925,"text":"我們的立場對於這種具體個案我們是不方便評論當然是講個案你不方便評論只是現在我們看到的證據一分證據說一分話現在你的檢察官竟然在開偵查庭的時候說出這樣子說這個是政治案件"},{"start":160.592,"end":161.132,"text":"發言委員．林思銘"},{"start":186.445,"end":199.864,"text":"我們以後一定會以法官的判決書內容為主,如果有的話我們一定會去了解這一屆的國會新跡象新的名義,我們真的要期許法務部"},{"start":201.55,"end":214.021,"text":"有關於這種不管是在偵查任何的案件所有的案件我真的要期許你們政治力不要介入尤其不要半藍不半綠這個讓人家感覺起來你們就是針對我們"},{"start":219.065,"end":236.977,"text":"國民黨的所有的政治人物去偵辦我們一定是公正的我們是行政中立你今天在這邊說我們希望說未來我們可以看到說我們的法務體系真的不再有政治力的介入回到我們今天的主題"},{"start":238.462,"end":263.772,"text":"那目前我們市所矯正學校端平、城鎮、立志、名陽均為完全中學的概念那高中是以技職教育為主我看到您的報告講說在學生入校後一個月內會個案評估報告分析少年的背景以及處遇需求以提供適當的輔導處遇那就是說市長我們少年的犯罪太陽非常的多啊"},{"start":265.003,"end":292.809,"text":"是否每一個每一種犯罪形態你要提供適合的輔導嘛是比如說我們現在看到就是說現在那個少年詐欺的車手還非常多嘛巨增嘛對所以對於像這種類型的這種不管是少年詐欺啦或者是我們少年的這種這個性剝削的啊這種相關的這種少年的一個犯罪的這些這個新少年犯罪者啊要如何的來輔導"},{"start":294.289,"end":319.804,"text":"你們是不是有做這個適性的一個分類的一個輔導?有有,我們各種根據他的那個犯罪的一個類型都會加以輔導像詐欺好了,詐欺會牽扯到他的習性、他的價值觀、他的家庭環境等等那老師就會針對這個部分給他做一個完整的介紹說明以輔導他是,所以"},{"start":320.799,"end":345.137,"text":"我想這個在整個輔導過程中除了詐欺以外還有很多很多類型完全都不一樣每一個人的因為他的一個或者是因為他精神狀態的問題或者是他的心理情緒的問題而犯各類型的犯罪所以我們在輔導的過程中我看你的報告是有三級輔導處遇但是"},{"start":350.359,"end":375.274,"text":"你對於這些輔導就是說真正的輔導的過程是不是真的能夠讓這些人不再犯罪是不是真的能夠達到這個成效這是我很關心的我現在問你一個問題就是說現在我們從少年就是這些輔導員出來之後復歸社會之後他的再犯率多少你知不知道有沒有做過統計"},{"start":376.215,"end":402.591,"text":"報告委員因為這些離開學校的學生他如果再犯如果他沒有進就是我們的學校他只是在少年法庭這邊呢就譬如說已經就請回了他家長帶回去類似像這樣的處理方式他沒有進學校我們學校沒有辦法拿到我現在是說進學校進學校之後他回復社會之後有沒有做過統計請那個書長"},{"start":408.006,"end":432.277,"text":"報告委員,我們原則上對於學生進入在學校再犯率的統計,有沒有做統計?沒有詳細的這個數據沒有詳細的數據喔?對,但是我們主要是好,這樣啦,因為我看到你們的目前的機制是出校後將持續追蹤一年嘛是以利於穩固學生復歸社區家庭的狀況嘛"},{"start":434.215,"end":452.309,"text":"所以你要去追蹤嗎?去追蹤你不用做統計喔?報告委員 這個部分是少角校的輔導教師或是社工師都會跟縣市政府的社工師做後追問我想現在大數據的時代啦我還是希望你們我建議啦未來這個要做你才會知道說這些"},{"start":453.73,"end":471.452,"text":"這些孩子經過我們這個少年輔導學校他出去之後有沒有追蹤之後有沒有繼續犯罪這個才能夠對於你未來你這個學校要如何的去改善增進你的這個教育的課程"},{"start":473.257,"end":496.69,"text":"不是說你現在訂了三級制度,但是你都沒有去考量說出去之後還會不會再犯?報告委員,後綴的主要目的是要協助他解決他的生活問題至於說他有沒有再犯罪,這個部分並不是最主要的目的我是說可以作為,你有這個大數據的分析之後,可以作為以後你們學校在安排課程"},{"start":497.771,"end":517.503,"text":"看是不是要加強輔導 怎麼樣來深化輔導要加強哪一種 哪一類型的教育 讓他不要再犯啊那這個問題是不是可以讓我們學校的一個教育的一個重點嗎 讓他進到這個我們的少年輔導這個學校 矯正學校來這個念書他的目的不是也要讓他能夠回歸正常嗎"},{"start":519.845,"end":535.723,"text":"所以這個統計我希望你一定要去做,好不好,這一定要去做,是,其實為什麼我會這樣問你,我跟你講一個數據,就是成人中學他在110年的資料,統計資料,他說安置一年的再犯率是55.35%,"},{"start":538.266,"end":553.983,"text":"近兩層的出銷生會再次被收押出銷時間越長再犯刑事案件的犯罪率攀升安置兩年的再犯率為66.39%安置三年的更高打80%"},{"start":555.845,"end":582.628,"text":"而且36.58%被再次收押所以我要請問你為什麼再犯率會這麼高?這個資料我們是有相關的統計安置大概是不到1%我們最主要是轉嫌復學跟就業最多安置其實很少我是不曉得這個數據是從哪邊來的你不知道我在告訴你答案我知道我會再告訴你"},{"start":583.863,"end":595.794,"text":"所以我要請教的說目前是不是我們的追蹤轉弦機制的規範不夠健全因為你剛才講追蹤才一年嘛後追一年對啊你才後追一年嘛是不是這個時間不夠一年夠嗎"},{"start":608.862,"end":629.649,"text":"這部分我是建議說我們可能要在這個法規面或者法制面你要去研議是不是要延長一看現行制度就不夠嘛你不要跟我講說依照現行的法規我當然依照現行法規這樣規定啊但是看起來就是不夠嘛不夠完備嘛"},{"start":631.707,"end":631.727,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}