{"error":false,"id":["153337"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153337,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153337","日期":"2024-05-30","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-30T09:42:10+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-30T09:50:47+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:37","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebafa1e86eb86a92da1cb22e1ce6086f58bbeba37a180c9b1cdc1dff94e1de332545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:42:10 - 09:50:47","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":576,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時42分）謝謝召委。不好意思，我請主委。"],["主席：有請曾主委。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我們知道你也才剛來接任，其實有些事情你也可以請你們底下的官員幫你，你們處長什麼，你可以請他幫你做提醒、回答。首先我想要先請教主委，你有說過平埔族正名的修法，希望讓平埔族人儘早取得身分，這是不是你認為一個很重要，然後必須要積極推動的一個政策？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，也要依據憲法的這個判決，我們要儘快的，已經拖了一年半，要讓平埔族的鄉親取得原住民的身分。"],["張委員宏陸：那麼你有想到怎麼去做了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們已經先認定這個族群，譬如說西拉雅或者是噶哈巫，或者是巴宰，先認定族群，再來認定個人，希望我們這裡趕快準備好，讓平埔族能夠先取得原住民的身分，至於權利義務，我們後面再來做討論。"],["張委員宏陸：如果這樣子的話，主委，你的意思是對族群先正名，然後再來是取得身分，然後再取得權利，大概這幾個步驟，是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，你有沒有聽過一句臺語的諺語：「有唐山公，無唐山媽」，這個意思就是說，如果真的要追源溯柢一直往上查，有可能全臺灣有平埔族血緣的，你有沒有預估大概會有多少人？"],["曾主任委員智勇：憲法法庭它是說要有客觀地認定，還有它的民俗，還有它的文化，還可以來印證，那麼應該這個……"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦！主委，我必須說，憲法法庭並沒有講客觀認定的標準在哪裡，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：而客觀的認定，其實最主要的，到最後我們原民會可能是要做最大的去訂定客觀認定的標準，也有可能文化界的人士也會出來說有哪些文化有什麼的。我講一個最簡單的，拜地基主是不是平埔族的文化？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個……"],["張委員宏陸：你可能不知道，也沒有關係，但你可以去查，有很多歷史學者或什麼的，他認為拜地基主是從平埔族的文化來的。你們的處長知不知道？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：現在在臺南的平埔族群確實是有這樣的一個習俗存在。"],["張委員宏陸：確實嘛！但拜地基主不是只有臺南，我看全臺灣都有拜地基主吧！全臺灣都有吧！我只有簡單地講這一個就好了，全臺灣很多文化其實都跟平埔族的文化是息息相關的，如果要追根究柢，你的前幾代，十幾代、二十幾代前，搞不好每個人都有平埔族的血統。我今天講這個只是要跟主委說，你要證明平埔族什麼的我非常非常認同，我真的非常認同。但主委，我這樣講比較不好意思啦！你如果說你要馬上積極去推動，我認為要謹慎一點、要謹慎一點，因為我剛剛只有講這個喔！大家底下都說每個人都有啊！每個人都可以成為平埔族喔！以後全臺灣的人，大概有七成都說他是平埔族。我為什麼要特別講這個呢？主委，我們今天討論的這個法條，你覺得如果平埔族每個都正名了，全臺灣有七成以上的人都是平埔族，適不適用這個法條？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們還是會有一些條件的限制，至少在日本時期的戶籍登記上有「熟」跟「平」的註記的話，那是比較可以認定是平埔族的。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不，主委，你回答不要這麼直接，你可以不要這麼直接，我剛剛講的，如果以歷史的規範來講，日據時代是日據時代，日據時代臺灣是被占領的，現在臺灣是一個獨立的國家耶！我們中華民國耶！我們怎麼還……那我們臺灣的歷史文化是要別人來幫我們寫還是我們自己寫，對不對？我擔心的是這個，如果平埔族，你說在你任內你想要把它推動，那就會是我剛剛講的，有可能七成的人都要申請自己是平埔族啊！他有沒有這個權力？他有，他有這個權力！我跟你講，到時候你就會很麻煩。","所以今天的這一個條例如果真的通過了，所有平埔族的人也可以要求適用，這樣子在原鄉的原住民朋友怎麼辦？我的意思是我不反對喔！我不反對要照顧原鄉的喔！我也支持積極照顧在都市裡面的原住民，我也很支持！我以前就是民政局長，這是我的業務，我非常支持。但我們應該要將一個法令去做通盤的思考及未來怎麼變化，不然我覺得我們會對不起很多人。我們在原鄉的怎麼辦？我們先不講平埔族的，我如果在都市裡面，我可能把很多人的戶籍都遷到都市來喔！那原鄉怎麼辦？原鄉越來越沒有人，那怎麼辦？真正的根就不見了耶！我比較擔心的是這個。我不反對要去照顧都市原住民，我是希望能夠找到更好的方式，兼顧原鄉跟在都市的原住民，我們如何去求一個平衡點、如何去做？我看了一下今天的這個，我真的覺得還有一些東西我們可以再仔細地思考一下、再仔細地思考一下，有些法條的內容我不在這邊多說，但我覺得還可以更細緻一點、更好一點。","我覺得做任何事情，尤其是主委，你應該要以照顧全臺灣所有原住民朋友的高度去看任何一個法案，我覺得要，因為到時候的資源使用要怎麼分配，其實你是占絕大多數的主導權的，我們必須要兼顧所有在臺灣不管任何一個角落的原住民，這點我真的要在這邊特別說。而我剛剛說的平埔族問題，你真的要好好地思考一下，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員的質詢，也謝謝曾主委。","繼續我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":0.8915937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.16159375,"end":3.2372187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.856593750000002,"end":9.599093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.15596875,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.62346875,"end":17.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.289718750000002,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.49534375,"end":33.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.71034375,"end":27.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.38846875,"end":41.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.44221875,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.37409375,"end":53.929718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.53721875,"end":56.798468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.000968750000006,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.034093750000004,"end":61.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.47284375,"end":61.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.48971875,"end":61.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.50659375,"end":61.523468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.92846875,"end":61.979093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.979093750000004,"end":62.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.852218750000006,"end":68.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.37471875,"end":74.33159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.24284375,"end":78.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.59659375000001,"end":86.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.76846875000001,"end":88.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.72596875,"end":92.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.24846875,"end":97.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.33221875000001,"end":108.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.62159375,"end":108.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.49909375,"end":109.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.90409375,"end":111.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.46909375000001,"end":130.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.13284375,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.47346875,"end":141.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.83159375,"end":143.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.02534375000002,"end":146.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.78846875000002,"end":149.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.26034375,"end":157.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.15409375000002,"end":162.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.60471875000002,"end":163.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.54971875,"end":164.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.76471875000001,"end":166.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.02159375000002,"end":168.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.03846875000002,"end":176.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.77971875,"end":180.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.16721875000002,"end":195.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.32096875000002,"end":200.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.35784375,"end":203.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.59409375,"end":206.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.66096875000002,"end":213.09471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.85409375,"end":215.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.18284375000002,"end":216.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.95909375000002,"end":221.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.59971875000002,"end":228.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.73346875000001,"end":231.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.77096875,"end":233.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.86346875,"end":241.78221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.76096875000002,"end":244.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.07284375,"end":250.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.11409375000002,"end":252.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.32471875000002,"end":255.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.72096875000003,"end":259.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.19284375,"end":261.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.99409375,"end":263.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.10346875,"end":266.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.97659375,"end":272.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.62534375,"end":278.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.63284375,"end":280.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.53971875,"end":283.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.39159375,"end":288.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.21346875,"end":290.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.36096875000004,"end":296.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.99284375,"end":298.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.77721875000003,"end":301.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.72221875,"end":310.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.22659375,"end":322.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.11971875,"end":323.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.16596875000005,"end":326.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.30909375000005,"end":329.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.58284375,"end":339.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.69096875,"end":351.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.48659375,"end":359.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.94096875,"end":360.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.05471875,"end":362.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.04596875000004,"end":366.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.53471875,"end":371.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.78284375000004,"end":374.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.41096875000005,"end":378.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.87471875,"end":385.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.46846875,"end":389.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.09659375,"end":393.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.77096875,"end":395.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.86346875000004,"end":404.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.14909375,"end":411.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.02971875000003,"end":413.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.32909375,"end":417.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.82221875000005,"end":420.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.48409375,"end":424.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.07846875,"end":426.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.76596875,"end":427.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.79534375000003,"end":429.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.02284375000005,"end":431.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.13221875000005,"end":436.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.62096875000003,"end":437.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.02159375,"end":439.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.45596875,"end":440.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.78471875,"end":442.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.37096875000003,"end":444.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.69971875000005,"end":461.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.72659375,"end":466.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.16471875,"end":497.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.43846875,"end":512.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.8959687500001,"end":515.4440937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.01,"end":2.331,"text":"張宏陸委員請正主委"},{"start":25.743,"end":43.755,"text":"主委我們也知道你也才剛來接任那其實有些的事情你也可以請你們底下的官員幫你你們處長什麼你可以請他幫你做提醒回答我首先我想要先請教主委"},{"start":45.441,"end":74.154,"text":"你有說過平埔族證明的修法希望讓平埔族人儘早取得身份這是不是你認為一個很重要然後必須要積極推動的一個政策是也要依據憲法的這個判決我們要儘快的已經拖了一年半要讓平埔族的這個相信取得這個原住民的身份"},{"start":75.287,"end":91.703,"text":"那你有想要怎麼去做呢嗎?我們已經先認定這個族群啦就是也比如說他是那個這個這個喔希拉也或者是那個格哈伍喔或者是這個"},{"start":93.505,"end":96.387,"text":"主委您的意思是先對族群先證明然後再來是取得身份"},{"start":120.734,"end":149.535,"text":"然後再取得權利大概這幾個步驟嘛是不是可是主委啊你有沒有聽過一句台語的諺語啊有等三公無等三馬這個意思就是說啊如果真的要啊追源溯底一直往上查有可能全台灣啊這個有平埔族血緣的你有沒有預估大概會有多少人"},{"start":152.681,"end":161.631,"text":"現法法庭它是說要有客觀的認定它還有它的民俗還有它的文化還可以來印證那麼應該這個"},{"start":168.052,"end":194.831,"text":"不是啦 諸位我必須說啦客觀的認定憲法法庭並沒有講客觀的認定的標準在哪裡對不對那你客觀的認定其實最主要的到最後呢我們原民會可能是要做最大的去訂定客觀認定的標準那也有可能文化界的人士然後這些也會出來說有哪些文化有什麼的我講一個最簡單的"},{"start":196.372,"end":220.78,"text":"拜地基族是不是平埔族的文化你可能不知道也沒有關係但你可以去查有很多歷史的學者或什麼他認為拜地基族是從平埔族的文化來的你們的處長知不知道在台南的平埔族群他們確實是有這樣的一個習俗存在"},{"start":222.216,"end":244.093,"text":"確實嘛齁但拜地基族不是只有台南啊我跟全台灣每個人都有拜地基族吧全台灣都有吧齁我只有簡單的講這一個就好了很多的全台灣的文化其實都跟平埔族的文化是息息相關的如果我們要追根究柢"},{"start":245.12,"end":263.282,"text":"你的前幾代十幾代二十幾代前搞不好每個人都有平埔族的血統我今天講這個我只要跟主委你說你要證明平埔族什麼這個我非常非常的認同我真的非常的認同但主委"},{"start":265.157,"end":288.922,"text":"我這樣講比較不好意思啦你如果說你要馬上積極去推動我認為要謹慎一點要謹慎一點因為我剛只有講這個喔大家底下都說每個人都有啊每個人都是可以成為平埔族喔以後全台灣的人大概有七成都說他是平埔族那"},{"start":291.417,"end":292.959,"text":"我為什麼要特別講這個呢?"},{"start":292.959,"end":293.46,"text":"主委,我們今天討論的這個法條,對不對?"},{"start":293.46,"end":296.544,"text":"你覺得如果平埔族每個都證明了全台灣有七成以上的人都是平埔族,是不是用這個法條?"},{"start":314.266,"end":328.94,"text":"我們還是會有一些條件的限制因為至少在日本的戶籍登記上有熟跟平的註記的話那是比較可以認定是平補足的"},{"start":329.62,"end":346.428,"text":"不不不不不不 主委 我真的不 你回答不要這麼直接 你可以不要這麼直接我剛剛講的 如果以歷史的規範來講 日據時代是日據時代 日據時代台灣是被佔領的 我們現在台灣是一個獨立的國家欸"},{"start":351.59,"end":371.262,"text":"我們中華民國捏我們怎麼還台灣那我們台灣的這個歷史文化我們是要別人來幫我們寫還是我們自己寫對不對我擔心的是這個如果你平埔族你說在你任內你想要把他推動那我剛剛講的有可能七成的人我都要申請我是平埔族啊他有沒有這個權利"},{"start":376.445,"end":393.825,"text":"他有他有這個權利他有這個權利我跟你講你到時候你就會很麻煩所以我們今天的這一個條例如果真的通過了所有平埔族的人他也可以要求適用那這樣子我們在原鄉的原住民朋友怎麼辦"},{"start":397.049,"end":420.094,"text":"我的意思是說我不反對喔我也反對要照顧原鄉的喔我也支持積極照顧在這個都市裡面的原住民我也很支持我以前就是民政局長這是我的業務我非常的支持但我們應該要去把一個法令啊齁要通盤的思考跟未來怎麼變化"},{"start":421.616,"end":421.736,"text":"主席"},{"start":443.43,"end":446.493,"text":"我看了一下這個今天這個我真的覺得說"},{"start":467.373,"end":488.736,"text":"還有一些東西我們可以再仔細的思考一下啦在仔細的思考一下有的法條的內容齁我不在這邊多說但我覺得還可以給他更細緻一點更好一點我覺得做任何事情尤其是主委你應該要以照顧全台灣所有的原住民朋友的一個高度去看任何一個法案"},{"start":489.617,"end":489.717,"text":"張宏陸委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}