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現在開始開會請議事委員宣讀上次會議記錄立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議事錄時間中華民國112年12月4日星期一九十一分至十一時五十二分地點七仙樓九樓大禮堂出席委員林德武等十二人列席委員鄭明莊等六人列席官員財政部部長莊翠穎等主席費昭吉委員洪泰八事項"},{"start":1853.2,"end":1870.868,"text":"邀請財政部．莊部長．翠盈就《資安一律評傳．如何強化財稅機關及供股行庫資安防護與區域聯防．進行專題報告．並備質詢。．經財政部部長．莊翠盈提出報告後．紀惠文．林德虎等12人提出質詢．均經財政部部長．莊翠盈等．以答覆說明"},{"start":1872.328,"end":1899.104,"text":"決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢會及答覆或請補充資訊請財政部一週內以書面答覆委員議要請期限者從其鎖定三委員費房貸所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請財政部以書面答覆宣達完畢好我們介紹先OK兩位針對藝術上次藝術有沒有意見沒有沒有意見那我們就確定"},{"start":1903.002,"end":1905.164,"text":"我們請議事委員宣讀今日議程"},{"start":1929.412,"end":1954.893,"text":"我們介紹今天在場的委員吳秉瑞委員介紹在場的各位官員我們金管會黃天牧主委銀行局莊局長政協局張局長保險局司局長檢察局張局長"},{"start":1959.724,"end":1976.916,"text":"我們今日一程安排：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主委就．評估與輔導我國保險公司．在因應保險合約國際財務報導準則．IFRS 17．和國際資本標準．ICS．的關鍵．進行專案報告我們現在請黃主委"},{"start":1995.743,"end":2009.706,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好今天大院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議．邀請就．評估與輔導我國保險公司．在因應保險合約會計財務報導準則．及國際資本標準的關鍵．進行專題報告．進行質詢"},{"start":2017.093,"end":2042.301,"text":"我國將在115年正式接軌國際財務報導準則第17號．以下簡稱IFRS 17．及保險業新一代清儲能力制度．以下簡稱ICS．以下請就我國接軌這兩個制度的規劃．相關評估．以及金管會協助輔導相關措施進行報告一．我們接軌這兩個制度的背景跟目的"},{"start":2043.339,"end":2047.641,"text":"接軌17號公報的背景我們在102年就開始接軌IFRS那國際間有147個國家是採用IFRS編制財報亞洲有44個"},{"start":2062.722,"end":2062.742,"text":"107 年"},{"start":2082.31,"end":2104.087,"text":"因為中間IFRS．不同的會計準則．有分逐號去公布在107年我們就適用了第9號公報就是資產面的會計準則全面採用公允價值來衡量保險合約的負債面國際會計準則委員會是在109年發布正式準則而且是要求112年生效"},{"start":2110.236,"end":2132.093,"text":"那今晚會評估整個保險業的過去的累積的保單的性質跟現況為了要給予業者比較充裕的時間所以在104年的時候就決定了要繳國際健身效率再延後三年換言之就是115年作為我國接軌17號公報的時間"},{"start":2134.81,"end":2159.548,"text":"陳柔剛才跟各位委員報告的第9號是屬於資產面所以資產面已經採取供應價值所以17號是合約會計的負債面所以資產跟負債同時用供應價值來做衡量可以使財報表達更貼近保險業經營的實質進而促使保險業重視商品策略的調整利潤結構以及資產負債管理等"},{"start":2163.807,"end":2186.248,"text":"有關17號公報．各國採用的情況．比方說在英國．歐盟．加拿大．歐洲．韓國．新加坡．香港．甚至中國大陸的A股．都是在112年接軌．那部分國家．像泰國．印尼．柬埔．在印度．菲律賓．斯里蘭卡．是在114年接軌第二點．我們要說明一下．ICS．的背景跟目的"},{"start":2187.355,"end":2201.626,"text":"因為以往國際保險業．並沒有一個各國統一的資本結構．不像銀行的Bussell Street．所以在108年．國際保險監理官協會在阿布達比年會．經過了幾乎10年的討論．通過了保險資本的標準．ICS．從109年開始進入5年的監測期．並從114年正式實施．"},{"start":2212.051,"end":2230.677,"text":"國際間也都有參考這個規範．考量自己國家的保險業的情況．訂定在地化跟過渡性的措施．來據以採納．比方說韓國在今年已經適用ICS．但是有韓國的版本．香港準備在明年適用．日本也在後年要適用"},{"start":2233.216,"end":2236.46,"text":"指出,ICS和17號公報都是對資產負債採取供應價值的評價,同樣可以強化保險業落實資產負債管理"},{"start":2248.255,"end":2271.405,"text":"我們是在109年的9月30號．對外發布新聞稿．對外說明我們鑒於17號公報．跟ICS．都是採取供應價值的角度去處理所以我們同樣都是希望是在115年．同步正式實施接下來跟各位委員報告借過兩制度的時程規劃．跟業者準備情況"},{"start":2272.967,"end":2293.221,"text":"在17號公報部分．原來是所謂的財務財報第4號的第二階段．所以我們在101年開始．就已經要求受險業．要進行有效契約負債供應價值的評估．要求預留各種準備金．在106年督導財產法人保發中心．成立專案小組．進行接軌準備試營"},{"start":2295.323,"end":2310.434,"text":"這個接軌除了利率式因素之外很重要就是資訊系統、歷史資料收集、商品策略調整、資產負債管理強化等等所以我們要給業者稍微比其他國家多一點的時間來做因應"},{"start":2313.304,"end":2320.131,"text":"預計我們需要在今年完成整個系統的建制明年做平行測試114年為開帳日115年順利實施17號公報目前保險業均陸續完成17號公報相關系統需求的盤點正在進行系統設計調整等建制"},{"start":2332.418,"end":2343.849,"text":"那接著ICS部分也是從109年到113年分5年依照保險業試算的結果來陸續完成在地化監理的規範跟過渡性措施的修正"},{"start":2346.24,"end":2364.539,"text":"目前來講保險業已經完成了兩次在地試算跟兩次平行測試那必要說並逐步強化他的利率風險管理跟增資跟強化資本跟財務的體制第三點也是主管機關在協助哪些事情在17號公報部分第一個我們在106年我們就"},{"start":2367.142,"end":2388.649,"text":"成立了一個接軌的一個專案小組在保發中心分為幾個組來協助業者另外我們要求業者進行獨立的評估強化他本身的配合17號公報的相關的整個的契約負債的供應價值評估以及相關的準備金補強的這個計劃"},{"start":2391.24,"end":2420.455,"text":"另外我們也希望保險業能夠強化財務體質來採取各項措施來提列相關的準備金或特別盈餘公積我們也盤點修正了17號公報的相關法規來協助業者引以包括我們在今年年底會發布保險業各種準備金提存辦法跟財報編制準則等多項法規那在ICS部分"},{"start":2421.789,"end":2437.985,"text":"第一,我們已經開始在今年4月份放寬發行據資本訊息的債券條件,可以有利於保險業籌資。第二,我們要制定適合我國國情的保險業新一代清償能力的制度。"},{"start":2438.726,"end":2438.946,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":2459.667,"end":2485.877,"text":"國際間要更彈性相對比較低的係數來讓業者比較容易能夠調適而且都給予15年的過渡期第二就是11月23號提供了包括高利率保單50個基點的利率轉換措施50%線性地震15年利率過渡措施以及高利率保單15年淨資產過渡措施等等的這些接軌的措施"},{"start":2487.327,"end":2507.587,"text":"尤其重要的就是我們雖然在11月23號公布了這些措施但是我們也了解國際的經濟金融情況不斷在變動所以除了定期每5年要爭取業者執行的情況進行檢討之外我們也在新聞稿承諾如果整體金融情況有顯著變化的時候我們會隨時檢討"},{"start":2509.569,"end":2520.636,"text":"以上就是就我們整個臺灣的保險業在接軌17號公報跟ICS上的背景目的業者的準備跟經管會的協助措施以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":2531.196,"end":2534.017,"text":"現在開始詢答做以下的宣告"},{"start":2570.161,"end":2575.647,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請那個金管會的黃主委黃主委來"},{"start":2582.287,"end":2610.002,"text":"主委我請教因為台股11月來大漲那扮演穩盤角色的八大公股這些券商目前暫時退場那個累計11月一共賣超595億元那再加上今年4月14日起傳出國安基金也退場獲利了結的消息外界認為台股未來的發展"},{"start":2610.842,"end":2632.43,"text":"有一定程度的不確定性主委您的看法呢?是,謝謝委員我想我在今年年初記者會就對今年的台股有八個字就是展現韌性、穩健前行我想國際政經情況是變化的所以台股難免都有一些漲有一些跌但是我覺得基本的方向我們會有韌性而且會穩健前行這樣齁?"},{"start":2634.032,"end":2639.905,"text":"主委我再請教因為11月外資的前朝永路台股淨匯路"},{"start":2642.389,"end":2642.629,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2672.083,"end":2693.993,"text":"這些外資樂權來投入台股你認為是避嫌的考量還是投資價值的取向?我想我不能夠替決定外資投資台股它後面一定最終的目的是什麼不過我相信台股的基本面良好指利率不錯所以這是一個台股很好的選擇"},{"start":2694.881,"end":2712.646,"text":"那你認為這些外資大局賄賂主要的原因你認為大概是朝哪個方向我想資金都是逐利而居啦我想應該台股有他的優越性所以他願意來投資台股我想他是自己但是這個投資應該是不斷隨著時間在做調整的"},{"start":2718.989,"end":2734.412,"text":"黃主委,因為近期熱錢持續流入,促使禮拜一新台幣匯率盤中一度強升超過一角,中場升值6分以31.415元報收,請問近期外資熱錢會不會成為推升整個台股動人的阻力?"},{"start":2744.212,"end":2769.878,"text":"報告委員我想外資跟本土的資金都是對台股都是動能我們台股散戶對台股也是很有興趣的像公股、航庫的賣股、國安基金的退場光是靠外資你認為這個能夠維持台股成交的動能嗎?"},{"start":2771.258,"end":2771.278,"text":"這樣喔﹖"},{"start":2786.277,"end":2809.503,"text":"因為那個主委啊,媒體報導,像這些歐美的商用不動產,金件啊,爆雷那據瞭解從去年到今天,至少有8件歐美商辦啊,這些受信案陸陸續續爆雷那也牽連至少有第一銀行啊,張銀啊,兆豐銀啊,還有台銀,4家的公股行庫"},{"start":2810.823,"end":2816.952,"text":"那我請問主委,歐美商辦這些授信報雷的事件是不是真的?"},{"start":2820.183,"end":2842.381,"text":"是有,我跟委員報告因為美國的升息那對於不動產尤其是商辦來講當然是有影響所以金管會在今年6月7月左右就已經內部就已經針對這個情況做了一個掌握那所以一方面發函給銀行請他注意風險管理第二部分我們的檢查部分在尤其在海外經檢部分也納入檢查的重點"},{"start":2843.154,"end":2866.319,"text":"那你這些這個授信這個案件的暴雷施加公務航空海外分行有沒有你認為有沒有人為的疏失目前看起來目前看起來沒有什麼特別這個所謂的弊案這種問題就是一般的授信的管理上的問題那你認為還有沒有另外其他因素的影響"},{"start":2868.31,"end":2888.141,"text":"主要因為我想報告委員其實今年有些媒體有報導因為美國的升息加上疫情之後大家對辦公大樓的需求有降低所以這個趨勢讓一些商辦的確是有產生一些問題但是我想我們的銀行基本上對這部分的管理應該是都有做到"},{"start":2888.641,"end":2910.243,"text":"那你會不會因為這幾年疫情啊這個今晚會在整個監理措施過於寬鬆所導致會不會這樣子報告委員不會因為即使是疫情期間我們有許不能夠到當地國去做檢查我們也可以在總行要求提供當地國的相關的資料去做一個檢視"},{"start":2911.175,"end":2939.72,"text":"那這四家公股行庫暴雷以後你們有沒有統計到底他整個損失目前有多少目前大概就是他們可能對方借款戶可能不能夠準時還本付息但是真正的損失我想還要等最後過一段時間才能夠精算但是這個部分我們都有掌握而且有的是在整個監理上都及早就已經注意到這個問題提醒他們去注意"},{"start":2940.16,"end":2959.928,"text":"主委金管會統計國營前三季在美國市場只賺了78.9億元比去年同期有比較減減了4%那更連三季在被新加坡市場超越那獲利成長動人出現疲態的狀況那主委"},{"start":2963.89,"end":2978.963,"text":"針對國營海外分行向這些歐美市場不動產受信狀況暴雷的警訊請問是不是有必要擴大來監理整個國營海外分行受信業務的狀況以免在目前整個國際局勢動盪"},{"start":2981.425,"end":3009.309,"text":"這樣齁?對"},{"start":3010.492,"end":3015.837,"text":"保險業2026年接軌國際整個財務報導的準則第17號IFRS 17那為了達成接軌的目標保險業會面臨比較高風險的這些資本的計算那我請問主委協助保險業接軌過程中最常遇到業者反應的困難到底是什麼"},{"start":3036.44,"end":3057.781,"text":"主要就是我們民國90年以前我們賣了很多高利率保單而且都是終身的那這部分在以現在的制度計算對他們來講在資本上或是在轉換上需要比較多的努力那這部分我們已經在11月23號做了一些緩緩措施那未來還會有進一步下一階段的措施可能明年會陸續公佈"},{"start":3060.043,"end":3068.87,"text":"主委,因為您也曾經說過金管會卡良業者努力的程度與國情的差異在相關敘述與接軌整個條件上讓保險業能夠平穩來接軌"},{"start":3074.855,"end":3102.885,"text":"這樣差別化的一個接軌模式真的符合國際的準則嗎?報告委員因為我們整個的接軌每個國家都一樣這個國際的標準必須也要考慮到國情所以一定會有允許有在地化跟過渡化的措施那我們會考量業者的努力程度做一些差異化的管理因為這些落後一般接軌標準的業者未來儘管會是不是也會要求限期趕上目標會不會?"},{"start":3104.482,"end":3105.923,"text":"據了解,基於國內長期投資工具有限,受請公司的資金"},{"start":3126.773,"end":3148.884,"text":"往投報率較高的海外市場來發展是常態但是國際資本市場劇烈的波動那整個風險相對也比較高再加上這個匯兌這個損益的這個起伏也讓也讓這個授權公司的獲利以及資本都面臨不小的壓力那從1億5年開始這個將接軌IFRS 17"},{"start":3154.895,"end":3176.441,"text":"ICS 2.0．對受選公司的經營．恐怕又是壓力三大請問主委．你認為接軌IFRS 17．這個ICS後．受選業經營．在投資海外市場方面．到底有沒有注意或調整的這些地方"},{"start":3177.341,"end":3194.395,"text":"報告委員您的問題非常非常重要這也是為什麼我們要接軌的目的因為過去我們的保單比較類似儲蓄性質的將來會以死差跟廢差為主為利源的結構所以我覺得這個部分的商品結構的改變會改變我們的保險公司的競爭力"},{"start":3197.837,"end":3214.124,"text":"會對損益是影響獲利重要的原因那請問主委你認為受選公司要如何及時的來掌握這些國內外金融情勢變化的人力呢?我想資產負債管理跟商品結構的調整都很重要"},{"start":3214.98,"end":3232.786,"text":"那對於這個匯率避險啊．國內授權公司是不是都能夠掌握這個策略上的因應我們有外匯價格變動準備金的制度那授權業本身也會有外匯避險的策略我想這部分會齊頭並進這樣齁好 謝謝謝謝委員指導 謝謝好 謝謝各位請回接著請吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":3252.062,"end":3260.184,"text":"主席麻煩請金管會的黃主委黃主委來委員長主委早齁"},{"start":3261.533,"end":3288.263,"text":"要跟你講一個我最近看到的消息這個就是美國眾議院的外交委員會在今年的11月28上個月的28號全票通過這個全票是39位出席的人全部都贊成39比0反對人是0要去檢討香港經濟貿易辦事處的認證法所謂這個檢討就是把他的特殊地位拿掉"},{"start":3289.482,"end":3308.433,"text":"那這個當然只是眾議院的外交委員會下一步就是要進到眾議院如果美國的眾議院跟參議院兩個這個國會啊都照這樣子的狀況去通過之後這個香港在華盛頓"},{"start":3309.847,"end":3337.89,"text":"在紐約在舊金山的三個經貿辦事處恐怕會關閉因為他失去特殊地位他不再有這樣子的外交跟這個經濟的特殊地位那會失去一切的特殊待遇包括獨立關稅的地位會沒有那獨立關稅地位沒有就是回到他就是一個中國的城市也就是說香港百年來的轉口貿易對美國就行不通了香港所有的貨物"},{"start":3339.025,"end":3365.619,"text":"都必須要照美國對中國科的關稅這樣繳稅他不是在對美國而言他不再是一個獨立的這個關稅領域那再來就是他過去還有一個技術轉讓的特殊待遇也沒有了最嚴重的是他在1983年10月17號開始的聯繫匯率制度結束那就是美元跟港元的自由兌換將要終結了"},{"start":3368.291,"end":3393.272,"text":"那當然現在只是第一步但是美國的國會加上美國現在的氛圍這個通過有它的可能性耶所以當這個自由兌換要結束的時候那香港人怎麼辦呢他當然就是拋港元搶美金啊這個就是為什麼最近香港的股市跌跌不休現在跌到現在一萬六千多"},{"start":3395.158,"end":3423.554,"text":"上個禮拜才剛說被台股超過現在就是低於港股一千點啦高點從三萬三掉到現在這樣一萬六千多那我這個就是過去我一直在跟你請教說如果香港有巨變的時候到底我們金管會對我們台灣這麼多的金融機構因為過去就是走世界的潮流跟把香港當作是一個特殊的地方我們在那邊有很多的投資跟很多的曝險"},{"start":3425.319,"end":3454.068,"text":"那如果美國採取這樣的態度之後我們有沒有什麼因應的方案或是現在要預先想假設這個事情半年後一年後成真那怎麼辦有沒有先去預先想這些事情報員我第一點我要非常感謝您分享這麼重要資訊我原來不知道謝謝您告訴我第二點這個事情應該分兩個層面來說明第一個就是法律層面跟國安層面我想因為"},{"start":3454.528,"end":3470.423,"text":"目前我們跟香港澳門的關係是由港澳人民關係條例去規範那這個部分會定位我們跟他的關係所以這部分要陸委會或國安單位去決定那至於您關心實體金融面的部分坦白說這幾年我們除了對大陸的曝血我們關心之外"},{"start":3471.084,"end":3473.045,"text":"主委,我再跟您描述一個狀況,當這個事情如果真的成真的時候,"},{"start":3493.598,"end":3521.343,"text":"港元不是只有搶兌換美金而已他能兌換的他都會兌換因為港元以後就是跟美元脫鉤了嘛那他以後也不能自由兌換所以他可能就會馬上有這個跟其他地方兌換的問題那也有可能另外當然我們這個不是一個很大的管道但是也可能趕快兌換台幣然後趕快再用台幣要轉兌換成其他的貨幣要跑掉啊"},{"start":3522.113,"end":3550.163,"text":"因為如果這個陳真你可以想像香港的資金絕對是大量的出逃嘛留在那邊幹嘛就是潤啊就跑啦跑了之後才能夠維持啊如果還留在那邊就是等死啊那些資本那香港是一個這麼大的這麼大的一個地方有人以前就在問說為什麼共產黨早年不把香港收回他說因為他要留下一個對世界對界的櫥窗"},{"start":3551.61,"end":3575.987,"text":"是只有習近平太傻啊用反送中的法案讓香港雨傘革命之後用這樣子的讓香港失去了這樣子的經濟創創這個地位然後美中關係不斷的惡化弄到美國國會現在講說那你這個我一步一步的收把過去給你的這些的權利都逐步逐步給你收回了眼看這樣香港有可能變成一個"},{"start":3577.418,"end":3598.056,"text":"跟過去我們所知道的香港是一個完全不一樣的地位跟狀況我希望我們金管會這邊真的要好好的構思萬一發生這樣的狀況而且我認為這個萬一是有可能會發生的不是在說以前講一講的時候距離還很遠現在是一步一步在接近"},{"start":3599.717,"end":3625.342,"text":"這個要先想好不然的話萬一出現緊急的狀況可能我們應變會來不及委員謝謝您的指導我們有待思考這些問題再來就是要請教說跟今天有關的是保險業的資金收入其實每年累積但是這兩三年有注意到它的淨收益率有逐年在下滑"},{"start":3627.692,"end":3638.462,"text":"就是保費的成長不像以前那麼快保費成長但是你保費你保險公司要拿保費去投資啊你那個投資以前你投資的收益還有4%4.5%這兩年降到剩下3.6%剩下3.2%"},{"start":3642.586,"end":3662.806,"text":"因為他賄損的部分這部分對他來講是一個大的影響所以你認為這是短期現象而不是一個長期現象如果譬如說美國的利率如果降了這些東西可以緩解你的意思是這樣嗎?利率的升降都各有得失"},{"start":3664.628,"end":3686.743,"text":"去年突然升息那麼高的確評價上對於保險公司有一些影響對金融業都有影響那上次在這邊請教您的時候也是問到說現在因為避險因為為了這個匯率為了這個利率避險的這個成本這麼的高我們如何每年被光是避險成本就荒掉幾千億"},{"start":3688.072,"end":3716.063,"text":"那這個有什麼方式是可以稍微降的嗎?有沒有什麼樣的方法?其實跟委員報告短期內當然透過避險策略或會價格變動準備金可是實體的問題是因為保險業因為國內沒有比較深跟廣的固定收益市場必須投資美國所以必須要就是要承受這個匯率的波動所以如果商品結構改成不要那麼多透過利差的收益而是多死差廢差的話"},{"start":3717.236,"end":3717.496,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3734.58,"end":3757.163,"text":"包括我們對保險法．對公共建設這方面．給保險公司比較多的空間．包括也許下個會期審查．投信投顧法．對於這個Rates．部分固定收益的這個商品．能夠讓保險公司多投資．我們也會檢討相關．對於創投或私募基金．這些相關投資的標底．讓保險公司留在國內．有更多的投資的標底"},{"start":3757.83,"end":3757.97,"text":"主席"},{"start":3778.812,"end":3779.052,"text":"最後再請教一個問題"},{"start":3801.141,"end":3827.326,"text":"金融評議中心他今天承接了非常多的案子那前幾年因為疫情的關係當然有一些保單的一些問題所以他很忙啦使得很多因為金融糾紛而要去金融這個評議中心請求協助評議的案子時間上有所點綴有所拖延那如何讓他的這個效率能夠增加然後這個不要"},{"start":3828.57,"end":3828.95,"text":"賴斯保委員"},{"start":3863.803,"end":3869.584,"text":"副委員長副委員長今天的題目有關於IFRS 17的部分那你的報告我讀了一下你提到我們在115年才要結構是"},{"start":3893.476,"end":3911.443,"text":"報告寫的英國、歐盟、加拿大這些國家包括中國、大陸的A股在112年就接軌了然後其他的國家包括泰國、印尼、柬埔寨、斯里蘭卡、菲律賓這些國家看起來都比我們"},{"start":3912.816,"end":3925.527,"text":"就是以GDP來講的話經濟實力比我們差很多的啊他們也要114年去接軌啊為什麼我們要115年啊?我們這麼寒冷是怎樣?為什麼這樣子啊?對不對?講一下為什麼我們把時間定在這麼後面?"},{"start":3928.427,"end":3928.567,"text":"主席"},{"start":3958.987,"end":3975.836,"text":"對,但是跟委員報告,因為但是去年因為美國升息,所以帶動了升息,所以目前來講對於接軌上相對來講難度低一點,但另外一部分就是我剛報告中有說過,因為還有系統的建築等等,這都需要時間。"},{"start":3976.996,"end":4001.552,"text":"我只是看到你這份報告我就百思不得其解當然除了你剛剛講的那個原因可是那個原因你現在自己幫他補上來了因為美國的利率大幅跳升所以這個難度要降低一點我們怕他倒掉了嘛就是過去這個虧損太大了這個我們了解但是我看了心裡就是在那裡犯低估啊"},{"start":4013.223,"end":4025.474,"text":"臺灣的保險密度跟滲透度在國際間都是數一數二的但是我們的那個保單的成分很多都是儲蓄性質的那以這種公允價值計價的話他調整的成本比較大"},{"start":4026.055,"end":4054.423,"text":"你所謂的公允價值講一個大家白話穩了就用市價吧就是市價公允公允就是市價市價來反映IFRS 17是針對授權公司嗎針對授權公司保險公司的負債那就是資產負債通通用市價來比如說某一家金庫他有一個授權"},{"start":4056.038,"end":4061.787,"text":"他的公司現在他的帳面價值10塊錢可是他在股市裡面只有8塊那他賺到啊"},{"start":4068.075,"end":4093.573,"text":"是這個意思嗎?就是用市價去決定你目前的資產跟負債?是啦!沒有啦!你還是沒回答!用市價啦!對!你還是沒回答問題啦!我重點要問的是你其他那些理由我都沒有意見啦!我要問的理由是我們有沒有可能提早一點啦!輸給這些國家我覺得你說輸給英國、歐盟就算了!對不對?"},{"start":4095.555,"end":4101.205,"text":"這個大陸A股我沒有輸當然這個輸贏有沒有意義啦我是說找這個結果有沒有意義啦請問你"},{"start":4102.704,"end":4131.349,"text":"其實本來國際財報準則這兩個公報分開去接軌本來就有一些人有意見因為資產跟負債應該同時匹配才對但它後面的負債比較晚公佈那台灣的確是因為過去這些老保單的問題需要比較多的時間去調整這也是跟工會討論過的結果所以一般藝術人確定沒辦法提倡我想目前就是循序漸進的去做朝這個方向去做"},{"start":4132.971,"end":4144.947,"text":"致詢問問,最近股市APP都當機了,9月到11月連續三次,大公司自己開發的APP"},{"start":4146.203,"end":4172.329,"text":"都當機了儘管問你不要只有開罰儘管問有沒有其他做法就是這個APP當機啊因為現在大家習慣在APP上面操作有時候當沖來幹什麼的話很靈活很方便結果都當機一當可能幾十分鐘半個小時所以你們今天你除了罰啦你除了罰以外有沒有其他的做法比如說怎麼樣"},{"start":4174.102,"end":4199.126,"text":"幫助他們加強資安的問題啊各位委員報告我們的資安被駭客啊等等啊是委員您的問題非常重要那但是一般來講分兩個層次交易所本來今年就辦了很多資安的會議包括券商那今晚會本身也有資安行動方案對券商要求資安那這部分的問題也許就是個案但是政情局都有密切注意這些問題這個確實發生嗎有那個局長要說明一下好說明下來"},{"start":4204.309,"end":4228.85,"text":"我們舉個例子,跟委員報告一下,其實我們都有要求,現在你只要停有斷、當機的現象的話,那交所就會去查核他,那把他這個系統的問題做一個調整之後改善,才讓他恢復。有沒有對他扣分,還是說警告,還是什麼的,有沒有?應該交所會用划眼的方式啊。就罰錢?對,罰錢的方式。啊我們能不能另類的?"},{"start":4230.373,"end":4232.574,"text":"我記得沒有當機是因為normal狀況應該正常的企業應該"},{"start":4258.603,"end":4285.734,"text":"我自己只要答說我們在建商的公平代課原則裡面就要求你本身內控系統都要做得很好那之後有好的話我們就會有表揚每年我們都會固定表揚有固定表揚表揚不是委員那個局長的意思就是說其實現在資安就是一種作業上的一些疏失已經會納入公平代課的原則去做評鑑所以每年都有做評鑑所以這個符合您的期待跟要求"},{"start":4288.323,"end":4311.719,"text":"最後一個我想跟你提一下現在COP28在世界上正在開會這個他們有一個重要的題目你看我的題目比較後面一點國際他們要建立國際的交易機制那你們呢我們現在是你們的政務"},{"start":4315.487,"end":4331.766,"text":"8月7日成立但是你們只做一個事只做諮詢就是你來talk talk 跟你談一談我就問你明確的相關的執法什麼時候要送來"},{"start":4332.964,"end":4353.223,"text":"報告委員他不是只有做諮詢大概今年12月22號就開始營業但他一開始只是做把歐洲的一些這些碳減碳的這個量跟國內去做撮合有在做那個是另外等一下問你想去問你有沒有相關的執法有沒有"},{"start":4354.483,"end":4372.395,"text":"指法應該是環境部因為這個我們成立探交一所是根據氣候邊界因應法36條去訂定的那所以指法是在環境部那裡在環境部那裡他大概什麼時候可以出來你知道嗎?不知道他什麼時候可以出來知道嗎?他陸續會出來這是現階段局長要報告一下細節"},{"start":4376.31,"end":4403.065,"text":"跟委員報告有關於我們碳交易所的這些交易制度我們也送給環境部來審議那他目前已經同意了所以很快就會對外來發布那其他的環境保護的這些相望法規我想環境部他本身有他的內部的政策現在我跟你講喔CVAM歐盟那部分是所有的包括台灣你東西賣到歐洲去一定要有碳的"},{"start":4405.182,"end":4406.223,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4430.658,"end":4450.137,"text":"你現在交易的對象你只有撮合國外的探權國外探權是兩個概念喔比如說現在泰國有探權要賣給新加坡在台灣這裡交易還是說我台積電或者有個公司我到泰國是買探權來這裡交易到底什麼情況"},{"start":4451.175,"end":4451.775,"text":"所以等於說台積電以後不需要跑到國外去買"},{"start":4471.886,"end":4475.43,"text":"目前要依照環境部規範目前不在碳交易所的交易架構下"},{"start":4491.809,"end":4517.547,"text":"是 那我們現在我剛剛回過來跟你們講COP24一個關鍵議題是那這個要加入他們希望建立探圈的國際交易制度那我們現在我們現在已經有交易所了啊那麼怎麼樣Join國際的市場有沒有想過這個問題報告委員這就是您指導的地方就是我們這樣努力的地方要準備怎麼努力就一步一步加入這種國際的市場對"},{"start":4520.314,"end":4541.71,"text":"國際現在是幾行因為這樣有點複雜了因為他又牽涉到是不是聯合國的會員等等但是現在有學者提出來了人家歐盟也這樣做了歐盟想要做要推一個公約推不動後來改成氣候的俱樂部俱樂部我們就可以加入了就沒有國的限制了"},{"start":4543.097,"end":4543.958,"text":"謝謝各位請回 接著請郭國文委員"},{"start":4579.745,"end":4605.011,"text":"主席有請黃主委黃主委來委員長主委好主委我想針對今天的主席有關在地措施跟過渡期的問題我們知道韓國也有這個過渡期大約10年我們拉長到15年兩國的體制當然是不太相同那是不是意味著臺灣需要增資的金額比較高"},{"start":4607.446,"end":4622.971,"text":"的確我們不是真就是我們過去老保單積累的比較多6以上的保單積累的比較多所以說主要是高利保單喔是主要關鍵因素是高利保單那如果是高利保單的話要讓這26家受選公司都合規的話"},{"start":4623.911,"end":4646.132,"text":"那高利保專比較多應該是在老八家那幾家嘛就是剩下這六家這邊嘛占的比例應該是比較高委員您指導的對其實外資的或是中小型的通常是80年以後成立的比較少比較少那我再抓了一下就國泰、中壽、南山、新光、台壽、全球這六家業者占的資產比例是整個壽險業者的大約是67%高達七成"},{"start":4649.435,"end":4650.096,"text":"社會的交代"},{"start":4667.011,"end":4684.127,"text":"其實跟委員報告我們在11月23號是個15年是給了他優惠措施50個base point之後那給他15年但是中間還會有定期跟不定期的檢討你有定期你分了沒有限定期一次我有看到"},{"start":4684.867,"end":4707.122,"text":"那問題是你要用什麼方式讓他們能夠真正的在15年裡頭完成呢?我是好奇這一點因為這15年如果從一個反向的思考來看的話那會炒的孩子有堂吃要把他延長到15年那如果乖化的孩子呢你有沒有可能給你獎勵呢?譬如講你15年分成三個階段ABC三個階段那前面5年的部分你有沒有給他什麼樣的誘因或獎勵?"},{"start":4709.684,"end":4735.199,"text":"委員您這個用語我非常認同不能說炒的小孩才有糖吃一定要很公平你努力多少努力的多我給的多努力的少我就給的少我非常贊成你的想法我們就是要業者提出自主改進方案然後這個方案不是只有我在的時候會去分析用什麼誘因Maybe你給35年或許大家覺得誘因很好前5年全部都達成了有沒有可能主委"},{"start":4735.299,"end":4752.265,"text":"報告委員這就是我們現階段要跟工會去討論讓他們心服口服建立一個機制就是差異化你做的你努力的多我後面當然要差異化啊主委不然我大家等到幫習近平那天就一直在stand by等待下一個15年"},{"start":4753.805,"end":4765.674,"text":"委員您的關切就是我們的關切我們也不希望有這種套利的問題你用出什麼樣的法寶嗎這個目前已經有一些想法還要繼續跟工會討論我問了你當然要透露一下啊比方說就是 這個局長來說明好了"},{"start":4774.951,"end":4792.221,"text":"我們現在正在跟公會討論那比方說如果增資或者是他能夠強化資本的話這個部分我們會給他一些誘因另外就是他的商品結構轉型他能夠多推CSM高一點你的誘因具體是什麼這個部分還在討論當中"},{"start":4797.569,"end":4814.62,"text":"就是不講不為難主委我再請教一您我想有沒有誘因我建議一個誘因來試看看好不好就是說因為我發現這幾年那個售險公司的那個公件的這一個部分的投資有往上攀升"},{"start":4815.501,"end":4839.384,"text":"在2022年的話大概是440而已,但是這相對資本規模來說還不是很大但是如果我們最重要的原因呢,受險公司我們都知道他在國內找不到標的,在國外投資的比例過高,那負險過高,形成一個結構性的困難那一直想要透過供應的方式來做處理,那現階段我們的整個財政部在整個促參的部分也做一些提升跟調整"},{"start":4839.784,"end":4867.389,"text":"那未來我們的REITS也有可能對不對像這種搭配的情況底下我們譬如講我找到一個像我們目前將來修法當中的REITS投資的比例佔比就公件的部分是10%我舉一個例子其他的地方類似這種東西你看到他投資標的每一個受選公司都可以來投嘛但是如果他的體質比較好我是不是可以有一個優惠條款提升到15%或怎樣類似這樣子有沒有可能"},{"start":4867.469,"end":4867.729,"text":"明年6月"},{"start":4887.93,"end":4889.031,"text":"政策性的公建我們的風險係數是維持到1.28%"},{"start":4907.581,"end":4924.846,"text":"當然你在第一波階段的時候的這個在地化措施的時候你認為1.28要維持但是有沒有可能因為獎勵的因素讓整個資金能夠快速的流到這個公建的這個可能性稍微再微調下降的可能性有沒有可能"},{"start":4925.326,"end":4949.222,"text":"這個我想委員的指教我們會跟工會再討論對 因為這樣的東西你才能讓整個資金結構性的困境來做一個調整嘛不是嗎我想這個係數的考慮尤其是對於國家的重要公共建設我想我們會做考量特別本席一直強調是軌道運輸啦因為出產的部分一直在想長照啦冷鏈啦冷鏈國家預算已經投入很多軌道建設的部分資金的這個那個門檻"},{"start":4950.123,"end":4954.846,"text":"請主委費心另外一個部分主委我看最近有一個很破例的說法金融機關不能受理代辦業者的案件這層出不窮的問題斷然措施真的可以解決這個問題嗎"},{"start":4973.187,"end":4989.137,"text":"這是因為我們相關的局收到一些澄清函或是看到一些我自己都看到一些稿告巧逆門幕、詐騙、個資外洩用合法來掩飾非法這典型的做法嘛"},{"start":4990.251,"end":5006.505,"text":"對,所以我們擔心消費者受騙或是受到不公平的對,那你上個代辦公室把這個砍掉之後那代辦公室會消失匿蹤嗎?我們盡我們的努力當然希望民眾都是跟正當的金融機構去往來了"},{"start":5007.952,"end":5024.662,"text":"就直接不要找代辦就直接找金融公司那金融公司的這個通路也要比較流暢嘛但是取代金融機關的部分呢不是只有代辦公司這個功能而已啦還有融資公司啦融資公司本席就問過你好幾次了嘛融資公司的爭議也蠻多的欸"},{"start":5026.403,"end":5042.635,"text":"主委我就沒有看到很斷然的措施一年以前300件現在350件是節節上升每天都在爆發這個問題也曾經出過額外費用的問題我問過您之後呢你們在行政院以後嚇有其事的開過一次會後來就沒消沒洗了"},{"start":5044.207,"end":5059.786,"text":"這個牽涉比較廣而且也有牽涉到一些比較素質不是很好的類似的公司所以大家有些顧慮是啊所以你這個就沒有辦法像代辦公室一刀切了嘛沒有一刀切那你要怎麼處理後來就沒消息啦"},{"start":5061.391,"end":5063.132,"text":"暫時我們還是維持現在的狀況,我們希望強化金融機構的服務。"},{"start":5082.772,"end":5092.763,"text":"目前沒有進一步的處理沒有進一步的處理那之所以會這樣考量你也跟我不要講結果你跟我講一個理由嘛讓我心服口服一下嘛好不好"},{"start":5094.649,"end":5094.789,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5114.838,"end":5115.639,"text":"主委最後一題就教於您的"},{"start":5131.63,"end":5148.521,"text":"那個詐騙的問題很嚴重之前我有提就請教你有些人主詐的成績你們都用實體的部分鈴貴信用這個部分但是問題是還有包括這個信用卡網路銀行電子支付"},{"start":5149.361,"end":5164.853,"text":"我們想要知道說到底這些這個網路虛擬的這種詐騙的程度多大看不出相關的數據只有間接性的指標就少提供所謂的這個虛擬帳號等等類似只有這樣子但是絕對的金額看不到"},{"start":5165.934,"end":5180.965,"text":"如果沒有這些絕對金額一來不知道問題的嚴重性二來也不知道你付出了多少努力這個沒有可能做一次性的公布或相關的統計讓國人知道我們有具體的打詐或者是需要提醒的地方"},{"start":5181.385,"end":5206.566,"text":"委員謝謝您的指導那因為包括我們自己有很多在臨櫃或是相關的這個主詐的成績是從警政署那邊得來的我們會您指導了之後我們會跟警政署那邊聯繫看其他這幾個通路有沒有可能有具體的數字我們也讓外界知道對就是說實體的部分之外其他虛擬的通路的部分也要一併公佈是這樣才能讓事情的真相能夠完整的呈現請主委會議謝謝謝謝委員指導謝謝"},{"start":5210.95,"end":5211.591,"text":"主席黃主委"},{"start":5226.294,"end":5249.594,"text":"主委好那個剛才郭委員請教你的時候說這個執政的這個結果讓他們這個執政黨的委員承受責任這樣不好啦所以顯見上面來講其實對於執政的成效來講執政黨的委員也頗有維持啦那我第一個問題要請教說過往呢在民間他感受到的就是說該管的東西不管"},{"start":5250.515,"end":5270.032,"text":"然後不該管的東西呢,細節的部分呢,你介入太多,因為你細節的部分呢,你管太多,當然你的人員沒有時間去做該管的事情嘛。我們就舉例來講說,這個寄送帳單的部分,這個還是小事喔。那麼講說像那個什麼你的公司治理啊,3.0的部分,"},{"start":5271.773,"end":5298.874,"text":"外面的專業的評鑑機構評鑑過了不算然後你還要你們的這個人員然後來決定他有沒有得一分得兩分主委你有沒有覺得這個東西實在是不該管的管太多你怎麼有辦法去管這麼多的這個事情那真正該管的事情呢比如說詐騙的東西我覺得我已經從這邊詐騙的問題一年之前我就提醒了但是這個網路詐騙的情況呢到現在為止他沒有舒緩"},{"start":5299.514,"end":5301.475,"text":"他沒有舒緩所以我們看到應該管的東西呢你不管還有什麼應該管的東西呢就包括包括我們現在講的說這個IFRS 17．ICS．這個部分怎麼樣讓我們跟國際能夠接軌的部分你這麼慢連東南亞國家其實都比我們來得快了"},{"start":5318.26,"end":5338.765,"text":"那這些的東西能夠讓我們跟全球能夠接軌的部分呢反而是遲緩的可是我們再看看洗錢的部分洗錢其實你一直以來就是洗錢的一個單位可是我們看到洗錢的部分呢就虛擬資產的部分你管了嗎然後我們看到就是說我要請教token的部分你管了嗎"},{"start":5339.943,"end":5340.183,"text":"黃主任委員會主席"},{"start":5358.411,"end":5379.381,"text":"用存摺去匯錢到國外去行員還要問說你存摺的錢從哪裡來的存摺的錢除了是你的薪水你的這個收入之外他錢還會從哪裡來的呢他不是都一筆一筆清清楚楚的在那邊這些東西雞毛蒜皮的事情你要管但是該管的東西你透過token洗錢有沒有可能 主委"},{"start":5380.307,"end":5409.297,"text":"是有可能好,那你管了沒有?報告委員,金管會在組織條例中規定是管合法的金融機構所以Token的洗錢你不管?我們是管金融機構的防治洗錢所以Token的洗錢你不管?我第三次問我們沒有管你們沒有管,那誰管?在你的行政單位裡面有任何的機關去管這個Token的洗錢嗎?我想這個業務上有其他的單位會負責其他單位是誰?"},{"start":5410.697,"end":5410.717,"text":"是誰?"},{"start":5415.327,"end":5439.784,"text":"我想就是檢警掉這些都是查辦犯罪的單位所以檢警掉不辦所以造成今天的情況之下你只管合法的銀行的其他的虛擬貨幣的黑市的部分你完全都不管地下錢莊的你也完全都不管那你去管合法的部分雞毛蒜皮的事情管這麼多的話能夠解決我們今天所面臨的社會問題嗎"},{"start":5442.527,"end":5458.432,"text":"你認為可不可以?就是說你只管今天只要是守法的人你雞毛蒜皮的事拼命地下然後不守法的人你雙手一攤然後這個你就可以解決問題就像剛剛其中我們講的一個問題就是這個貸款仲介的這個部分"},{"start":5459.292,"end":5477.437,"text":"人家需要錢的時候你認為主委你認為他除了從地下錢莊那也不歸你管嘛對不對你剛講合法金融的部分地下錢莊也不歸你管嘛是不是然後呢他除了地下錢莊之外他除了這個仲介的部分他能夠怎麼樣然後我最近還聽說啊這個民間的反應啦民間反應就講說"},{"start":5481.958,"end":5498.625,"text":"當這個銀行呢他要給這個呃這個貸款的人呢當他認為他不符合資格不能夠給他的時候呢然後他們只要去跟你申訴的話然後他就會扣點扣一點然後呢這個銀行呢就要給他是這樣子嗎是真的有這樣的情形嗎我覺得這不是事實"},{"start":5499.805,"end":5528.817,"text":"這不是事實那反正就是說不是事實的話那就是民間的這個訊息是錯誤那你是不是應該要釐清呢但是我也實際上面知道的情形呢其實也不只是這個啦還包括這個繼承的部分呢你只要就是說它不符合標定的規準比如說它跟財政部申報的東西不一樣然後到你這邊來申訴的時候全部都開大門所以簡單來講呢就是你是不是讓全國它是一個兩套標準的情況"},{"start":5530.311,"end":5554.677,"text":"委員的指教我們虛心檢討不是虛心檢討你應該坐在前面而不是在後面我們是監督政府我們不是鞭策你的了解 謝謝委員我知道 謝謝委員指導那你知道之後那你現在告訴我你現在金管會要做什麼事情貿民的事情你管不管貿民詐騙的部分你管不管要看是不是在我們比方說投資的管道上面"},{"start":5555.601,"end":5580.609,"text":"所以就是說你只管合法的人非法的人不歸你管所以你認為他是檢調單位該管洗錢的部分除了透過銀行洗錢之外其他的你不管哪個呆子透過銀行洗錢我們在防治洗錢的規範上除了金融機構之外還有包括融資性住任公司的洗錢也是我們在管那token洗錢你管不管這個我們沒有管沒有管那你有反應嗎你們橫向不溝通的"},{"start":5581.707,"end":5587.377,"text":"我們防治洗錢上有中央的部會在協調我再問你一下我們再換個方式問 個資你管不管"},{"start":5588.308,"end":5617.023,"text":"各資管金融機構的各資其他的各資你不管但是因為金融機構的部分我們光光看到保險業它就已經因為保險業洩漏出去的各資的資料就高達36筆裡面還不光銀行業這個還是你財儲的部分沒有財儲的部分的案件又更多那怎麼你管出來的部分是越管越多人民的各資洩漏出去人民的各資洩漏出去之後你有沒有通知被洩漏的各資的個人呢"},{"start":5617.605,"end":5631.077,"text":"我們有要求銀行要去通知那銀行通知了沒有呢?他們會照我們的意思去通知這個我們後面都有列管的你們都有列管,你多少追蹤一次?比方說被裁罰的銀行就要求他提出改善報告"},{"start":5632.718,"end":5647.671,"text":"改善的部分我們看看審計部給你的資料顯示這個顯示出來你這個金融機構共同的資安的缺失是高達了12件這個還是非常非常保守的一個估計那這些的問題解決了嗎?這是111年度的所以到現在來講已經是舊的事情你解決了什麼呢?"},{"start":5656.274,"end":5675.345,"text":"這個資安的問題是不斷的再去努力去改進的不是,你這個是形容詞嘛我們看到,我再幫你回答好了資安的問題你解決了什麼問題你做了什麼樣的因應的措施主委你應該很自豪的講說我規定上市櫃公司通通都要設置資安長然後呢?你設置了資安長之後怎麼樣呢?解決了什麼樣的問題呢?這個12項的缺失解決了什麼呢?主委"},{"start":5684.522,"end":5708.963,"text":"金融機構一定規模都有設資安長所以東西只要設了一個職位問題就會自動消失設資安長的意思是有更多的資源跟權責去要求他去做好資安工作所以就是你的職責是說你下命令下規定要做的人就是民間該做是這樣的意思是不是金管會有一部分是掌舵華獎是金融機構要去做的"},{"start":5709.445,"end":5710.086,"text":"主任委員"},{"start":5731.821,"end":5736.084,"text":"要看情況,國安資訊不應該你厲害你這是違反全球的潮流OECD就講說政府的資訊應該要公開透明,不是嗎?美國的SEC就相當於我們的這個金管會美國它在強調的也是一個資訊的公開透明那現在是你政府的資訊都不公開透明可是你要求老百姓的資訊要公開透明這合理嗎?"},{"start":5759.557,"end":5767.622,"text":"我說的是政府資金也有分類不是說所有都可以公開的你符合國家機密保護法你不是在浪費這個時間就是在這個甩鍋嗎那我請問你啊那你認為就是說我們的銀行我們的負險的高低這個是符合國家機密保護法嗎"},{"start":5780.911,"end":5782.553,"text":"主委 還不是從你的官網我們從媒體上面看出來然後我們把這些的曝險的部分加起來是1.46兆"},{"start":5807.113,"end":5834.434,"text":"這個數字很小,是不是?報告,這個負險就是它的資產的額度嘛這個負險的險跟那個risk其實不能夠等同,這就是風險對啊,那你為什麼不把我們現在所有的東西做一個統計的在你的官網上面然後你再告訴別人說負險跟實際上面的風險是兩回事情你可以在你的官網上面,這不是也是一個教育的方式嗎?"},{"start":5835.054,"end":5836.554,"text":"目前我們是有同意我們法規上是有"},{"start":5852.949,"end":5875.955,"text":"提議併購所以你是贊成還是不贊成法規有是有但是你是鼓勵還是你是反對提供制度市場上自己決定所以你是也不贊成也不反對那我請問一下既然你是不贊成也不反對為什麼會有這些符合提議併購的資格的銀行是不能夠公佈的"},{"start":5877.295,"end":5878.355,"text":"我們有公布,我們前兩天有公布有幾家有符合有公布"},{"start":5897.298,"end":5898.72,"text":"前兩天記者會還有一些條件有公佈"},{"start":5907.523,"end":5907.763,"text":"中嘉賓委員"},{"start":5938.772,"end":5946.961,"text":"主席．在場的委員先進．列席的政府機關所長．官員．會長．工作夥伴．媒體記者．女士先生．有請黃主委和銀行局莊局長兩位請"},{"start":5951.519,"end":5980.052,"text":"是委員長也請那個張局長一起來好 主委好兩位局長好那主委剛剛委員有在關心啦其實昨天的經濟日報頭版也說美國的商辦爆雷啊國營有四家有曝險那這裡面我比較關切的是所謂的商辦來我要請教一下那主委那麼我們國內的國營啊不動產放款的集中度開始回升目前國營的不動產的放款大概有多少的規模"},{"start":5981.311,"end":5981.751,"text":"根據銀行法第27條之二"},{"start":6002.64,"end":6024.346,"text":"主宰建築及企業建築的放緩不得超過銀行放緩餘額及金融財源發行總額的30%所以目前我們從去年的6月從27.19因為政府在例行打炒房他這個放緩的餘額慢慢降低雖然降低不到1%但是1%就很多了13兆多1%是多少"},{"start":6027.198,"end":6050.805,"text":"十三 一千三百多億嘛 是不是這樣 是那這個時候呢 又回升了 現在六個月後又回升了那其中呢 接近這個警戒線的29% 有一家是哪一家特定行我直接告訴你是新展啦 是新展嘛那另外28 29%的有四家已經接近百分之三十了 是哪四家知道嗎"},{"start":6052.438,"end":6064.193,"text":"這位應該知道 不過會後可以查給更委的報告好 那你們對於這些接近緊接需的銀行有沒有什麼對策啊因為他對不動產放款的集中度這麼高已經接近了我們法律的上限你們有什麼對策"},{"start":6067.313,"end":6089.703,"text":"這個定期都有報表去瞭解如果超過就會去...當然不能超過啊接近就要注意了我們看一下為什麼要關心這一題呢因為呢 近期來因為升息通膨全球的建商都發生倒閉潮啊日本啊單單是上半年就破產了789家建商瑞典前半個月公司為有5000多家澳洲呢有1700家進入破產程序德國439家英國4280家都破產或申請破產"},{"start":6095.325,"end":6115.678,"text":"中國最嚴重十大建商有9家跳票或破產還好沒有跳樓留下一堆爛尾樓因為升息他的資金成本提高通膨他物料人力上漲好那我們來看台灣呢台灣說還好欸台灣說怎樣房市不會崩盤但是我們很緊張啊最近供料雙漲雖然台灣通膨較低我們的升息較和緩"},{"start":6116.579,"end":6141.028,"text":"但是呢只要建案賠錢就可能二薪倒閉而舉例來講最近供料雙漲以臺北市的營業成本漲了一倍從十萬五到二十五萬全台的營業成本從每坪九萬到每坪十五萬也漲了八成那土建融的利息呢是央行升息其他還有地主的租金補貼來經常費用稅金等等等建商如果沒有利潤會賠錢還是二薪倒閉那現在有沒有呢跟你說有"},{"start":6142.268,"end":6164.717,"text":"現在臺灣的預售屋啊臺北市北投區大同區呢有兩個危老的預售案我上次就問過了營運困難停止興建那臺北市政府還特別發稿啊發新聞稿說這兩個建案呢受你信託的跟瑞興行要找廠商來續建那如果沒有續建找不到人續建就變成爛尾了齁那請問目前有多少建築融資案環系不正常有沒有掌握"},{"start":6166.028,"end":6192.278,"text":"這部分我不太清楚我們來看一下房屋稅條例通過之後就有一個利空根據不動產的研究專家說如果公設資本額跟建案總銷售的落差過大表示他的財務槓很大碰上升息或者利空什麼叫利空房屋稅條例所謂的囤房稅2.0對於建商持有的餘額增加持有成本那他可能會倒閉或跑路那我們來看一下"},{"start":6193.078,"end":6221.5,"text":"那是不是你可以來告訴我們定期介入目前建築融資的預放金額知道嗎?目前建築融資的預放金額多少?這零點零點幾?零點一六?零點零六零點零六那是總金額多少?正常是多少?我舉例以圖銀來講啦我只看到一個數字七月底呢它的不動產預放較去年同期增加了1.35億1.35億到底是多還是少啊?"},{"start":6223.495,"end":6245.476,"text":"有沒有特別的波動?你們有沒有清楚?其實我們在前年2021開始就開始對比較集中度在建築業放款的銀行都有做管理那你去年有在管理嘛,所以去年哪幾家知道嘛?那今年哪幾家也知道嘛?銀行局長都知道嘛?可以告訴大家嗎?老實講一家新展,另外四家呢?"},{"start":6245.916,"end":6258.016,"text":"新產是因為合併的關係對啦合併嘛 推特你就講嘛講了大家就放心了嘛你不講大家就想說新產是不是有問題啊那另外四家呢這個是銀行局在列管的我想可能不太適合對外講"},{"start":6259.563,"end":6283.984,"text":"說明一下報告委員我們其實是對建築放款就是現在委員關心的這個部分我們對建築放款集中度過高的銀行我們其實一直都有在列管當中打從兩年以前他們其實我們會針對這些銀行請他報那個改善的計畫是那哪些諮詢會介入包括說你們定期介入銀行融資的餘放金額都有介入嗎"},{"start":6284.758,"end":6309.033,"text":"我們那個建築放款那個就是預放的金額跟比率其實對外定期都會有說明啦有嗎或是整體的是整體的對不是特別銀行你看就是你們還是擔心公布了個案恐怕就有壓力是不是那好那就算我們不知道消費大眾不知道只要整體那你們可不可以針對怕我們有爆雷啊第三波不動產的專案經檢可以開始著手進行了嗎"},{"start":6313.005,"end":6335.672,"text":"一致都有做我講專案經檢不是定期經檢現在我們看到最近這六個月又上升了有沒有必要發動一下了解一下我們請檢察局參考我的意見現在的預售屋他都用信託倒閉的壓力回到信託行我們看看大概有這五種這是定期賣企業所說的第一種是加薪緩帆這個消費者買的"},{"start":6338.8,"end":6356.045,"text":"這預售屋的價金放在金融機構然後工程款在過戶前竟然不能動用消費者如果出了問題全數拿回大概沒有建商會採用這個方法啦比較常看到的是不動產的開發信託跟價金信託兩者的差別一個是有信託業者介入而且他的動資的價金的範圍比較多"},{"start":6358.486,"end":6377.67,"text":"這大概是現在市場的主流至於同業連帶擔保子公司跟母公司來連帶擔保這種情況好像在船上我跟另外一個大胖子綁在一起船沉了兩個一起沉這個保障不多至於公衛連帶擔保那就更不用講了好 那請問一下目前這些資訊採取不動產開發信託跟加薪信託的這是誰在掌握勾選這種信託機制的內政部 對不對"},{"start":6386.384,"end":6412.498,"text":"那你們銀行局會不會知道?今晚會不會知道?我們有跟內政部討論某些信託的契約內容有討論,很好,現在就是讓你們加緊行動了,往下看所以呢,如果信託行找了半天找不到廠商續建,他土地會拍賣停止興建,找續建,續建沒有,土地拍賣,拍賣金額不夠,不夠償還銀行金額那可能建屋跟消費者就拿不回他的預售物款項你說的新產銀行,已經發生了嘛"},{"start":6413.078,"end":6438.196,"text":"他已經有發生過這樣的情況交給法院委託臺灣資產服務公司做公開拍賣好那這是可能發生的情況那往下看那不動產信託的機制有沒有強化的方向當我們現在看到往回跳這五種方式目前市場的主流這兩種方式有沒有無法因應接下來未來當"},{"start":6440.661,"end":6461.857,"text":"讓委發聲當利息出生或利空出的時候建商承受不起那你們怎麼樣去對這些不動產放款集中度較高銀行或者未來協助他們不動產開發業者跟消費者訂約的時候怎麼樣對事後的處理機制做一些比較好的 你說有跟內政部討論過那現在情況怎麼樣"},{"start":6464.119,"end":6478.1,"text":"有 其實有關履約保證部分有時候讓購物者也許會誤會說這個保證是有什麼性質其實它那個資金的使用很多是建商也可以用這些在契約條款上我們都有跟內政部在溝通那有沒有要進行修改"},{"start":6478.988,"end":6498.011,"text":"我們嘗試希望能夠做一些調整有沒有跟內政部定一個期限因為我們很擔心現在事先預警在其他國家已經發生了台灣會不會發生我們不能等到發生了再來著手我建議金管會趕快的跟內政部就這些萬一爆了"},{"start":6498.952,"end":6523.297,"text":"後續的情況消費者的損失會降到最低目前市場主流那兩種不然是不動產開發信託還是價金信託價金信託當然是比較有保障這兩者的差異能不能盡速的縮小或者說未來採取什麼樣必要的包括說企業的修改或引注一事項有沒有在做後續決定出什麼時候要來做一個公布"},{"start":6523.917,"end":6539.458,"text":"委員其實我們都有在處理不過因為您的槌尋我們會去向內政部再去跟他協調好那我希望你們未來不動產信託的機制要強化譬如說加強土建農的搭配的信託可能目前價金信託對消費者比較保障"},{"start":6539.938,"end":6541.238,"text":"請你定期介入本國銀行建築融資餘放的金額跟比例,可以嗎?"},{"start":6565.565,"end":6567.646,"text":"請信託工會加強對會員辦理預售屋履約﹑擔保信託的教育"},{"start":6592.279,"end":6592.759,"text":"接下來有請費鴻泰 費昭偉質詢"},{"start":6622.813,"end":6645.985,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位女士先生大家早安主席幫我請一下黃主委好 有請黃主委是 趙委長主委好這個防疫險現在是不是全部都理賠完畢了大部分都完成了大概都解決了都解決了這次理賠大概總共賠了多少的金額大概2700億左右2700億這個跟幾年前我的評估差不多"},{"start":6652.545,"end":6674.105,"text":"這個防疫險到現在差不多告一段落了當然大股東口袋裡拿錢或者跟銀行去融資大概都到位了但是當然也有幾個事情日後我們可以拿來做檢討第一個 有一家產險公司叫新安東"},{"start":6675.401,"end":6682.624,"text":"現在是股權比較高的是東京海上集團現在換成日本人的這個是對台灣的一個損失"},{"start":6704.878,"end":6727.273,"text":"第二,我們這些保險從業人員的薪資這三年下來有沒有減少?直接告訴你,他們工會有跟我講,是減少了很多。因為大股東增資或跟銀行借款都要付利息,所以他們所有的獲利,而且與轉增資的關係,"},{"start":6735.405,"end":6763.333,"text":"讓他們的保險從業人員台灣有多少人加業務員好像三四十萬人因為業務員很多我所了解他們你去問問他們看看問問工會就知道了他們的所得減少很多不是說沒有還有一個請教一下這些防疫險"},{"start":6765.1,"end":6767.562,"text":"財保公司見解上跟保險公司不一致"},{"start":6787.9,"end":6810.878,"text":"主要是對於他們的核保或者理賠的標準有一些討論在保公司說在保公司說這個防險的保單是理賠是什麼狀況呢確診住院理賠對不對那我們台灣是怎麼做的呢"},{"start":6813.134,"end":6830.802,"text":"我們後來因為人數很多,所以變成快篩來決定,然後就數位的方式出列。沒錯,就跳過了住院的這個階段。這就是台灣保險公司跟在保的爭執的地方,不是小事喔。"},{"start":6832.321,"end":6843.441,"text":"如果我在問下面一個問題如果債保公司不理賠那這些財險公司他要怎麼處理我們請局長跟您報告"},{"start":6845.523,"end":6868.574,"text":"報告委員,那個防疫險的保單確診不是要住院才要理賠,確診就幾戶,它只是有一部分是住院的部分的幾戶,後來因為那個衛護部的條件,我剛在講在寶跟台灣的產業公司,他們的看法不一樣,是不是我剛在講的那個東西?"},{"start":6870.049,"end":6871.111,"text":"臺灣後來做的理賠跟簽約的保單一樣還是不一樣呢?"},{"start":6886.138,"end":6913.59,"text":"他們現在有一些討論裡面大概就是針對他的核保條件是不是放得太寬或者是那個住院的那個己父的部分後來因為有居家照護的部分當時的保單上面沒有寫很清楚嗎保單寫確診就是理賠所以這個部分應該不是爭議的主要的原因那主要的原因只有那個住院己父的那一塊局長你慢慢說其實我"},{"start":6916.104,"end":6945.083,"text":"工會很多人都跟我講得很清楚了齁我講的工會是工人的工齁到底 到底出了什麼問題為什麼在以前在保會跟我們保險公司會這樣子爭執有那麼長的時間嗎呃 有一些還是有這樣的情形啦很少啦保險局 你們 你們需要講實話喔我要聽你的實話喔問題到底出在哪裡嘛"},{"start":6950.496,"end":6950.656,"text":"主委"},{"start":6976.141,"end":6977.022,"text":"韓國是過渡10年嗎?我上網去看說美國是"},{"start":7004.266,"end":7004.286,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":7025.373,"end":7030.458,"text":"主要是臺灣的保險我們高理賠的保單太多了在世界上佔了很多所以說我們的國情跟別的國家國情不太一樣"},{"start":7047.336,"end":7060.412,"text":"我們當然希望能夠快速跟國際接軌這樣子我們的資本市場人家接觸度會比較高我們都準備好了嗎"},{"start":7061.212,"end":7068.374,"text":"我們在按部就班的準備,我們有信心還有一年的時間嘛,對不對?2026還有兩年的時間我們是2026...1月1號1月1號實施嘛,還有一年嘛今年2023對不起,2024、2025還有兩年時間兩年時間當然可以啦,所以我今天訂的這個題目"},{"start":7081.69,"end":7108.566,"text":"就是從你們輔導也要從輔導的角度還有他們能力的角度我是覺得要上路啊一定要考量一下他們的實際的狀況我剛才講的防疫險那個防疫險其實這個過程裡面我沒有在怪你們因為行政院做了很多的規定行政院聽了衛福部很多的話"},{"start":7110.128,"end":7110.148,"text":"國際財保"},{"start":7125.882,"end":7126.042,"text":"網路保險號"},{"start":7154.995,"end":7179.714,"text":"會不會上線啊?我們在研究中可能到明年初才會對外宣布。換句話說今年不會?今年不會。日後樂不樂觀?我們一方面開放保險公司異業的結盟的工作,所以現在保險公司可能利用異業結盟去發展那種存網保類似的業務。它有沒有有點像存網營?像不像?"},{"start":7181.345,"end":7181.465,"text":"主席"},{"start":7194.676,"end":7195.336,"text":"美國對虛擬貨幣的ETF可能會開放"},{"start":7224.615,"end":7250.662,"text":"臺灣有沒有這樣子的因應的對策委員其實國際的趨勢我們都在掌握那當然我不敢說現在會開放但是未來要看我們走的方向那是要等到法規就寫嗎或是看到國際監理上到位之後我們覺得我們就可以做處理我們要去看看國際上的進度再把我們臺灣的法規要把它落實"},{"start":7253.143,"end":7277.248,"text":"當然比較保守穩健也可以最後我想請教一個問題臺灣在全世界一千大的銀行裡面排名前一百名的有沒有一百名好像沒有臺灣銀行應該是最大的但是好像也不到一百名答案是沒有我們要查一下我們抱歉我們金融產業佔GDP"},{"start":7280.906,"end":7289.129,"text":"香港和新加坡的金融業佔GDP大概多少?高到什麼程度?香港25% 新加坡33%"},{"start":7302.406,"end":7303.146,"text":"黃主任委員"},{"start":7319.756,"end":7320.156,"text":"感謝委員指導"},{"start":7345.677,"end":7346.818,"text":"好 謝謝費昭偉 謝謝黃主委接下來有請有換人嗎?有沒有換?高嘉瑜委員"},{"start":7368.433,"end":7388.32,"text":"接下來高嘉瑜委員．高嘉瑜．高嘉苑議員不在．我們請沈發慧委員沈發慧改書面．沈發慧委員改書面．接著請曾民仲委員好 謝謝召委．請主委總召長"},{"start":7396.689,"end":7420.707,"text":"主委早幾個事情跟你討教第一個我看您今天的書面報告我有仔細看這是115年我國保險公司要接軌IFRS 17．跟ICS這是既定的政策已經確定了是不是是好那整體看保險公司要增加多少資本"},{"start":7423.347,"end":7424.708,"text":"局長跟主委答得非常好"},{"start":7452.335,"end":7478.132,"text":"既然這個是既定政策那到時候我相信你已經評估過不管你過渡多少年那我的問題是在最低要增加多少資本那中等的情況要增加多少資本最高要增加多少資本你總要有這樣預估不然你不可能做決策"},{"start":7480.25,"end":7502.896,"text":"那好吧你說過渡多久我尊重但是你總要有預估阿最少這兩個重要政策接軌之後最低整個保險要增加多少資本那在中等的情況或者最高的情況要增加多少資本額這會有阿你做結界不可能沒有阿"},{"start":7505.302,"end":7508.303,"text":"對阿 我也知道阿 有些人有利 有些人不利阿"},{"start":7533.332,"end":7561.526,"text":"那做這個綜合考量之後你總有一個最低保險業要增加多少資本那在中等的情況保險業要增加多少資本那最嚴格的情況底下保險業要增加多少成本你不能跟我講說欸不知道或者是還沒有算清楚假設不知道或者沒有算清楚"},{"start":7562.642,"end":7570.749,"text":"我對這樣的計定政策主委不好意思我只是保留態度因為你沒有做好的相關的政策評估嘛"},{"start":7572.315,"end":7573.535,"text":"主委沒有錯,主委你給我答案啦你都給"},{"start":7593.61,"end":7616.089,"text":"這些保險公司精算過了嘛他自己算的啦對他精算過了當然他自己算了正不正確另外一件事情嘛那既然他已經算出來嘛那算出來那整個保險業會多少這個我因為第一個個別公司我想我也不知道我講全部受選公司幾家總共 主委受選公司總共幾家"},{"start":7623.097,"end":7623.738,"text":"有個答案有沒有"},{"start":7640.369,"end":7665.922,"text":"其實以前我就講一個數字好了以前很多委員說你們要上兆的增資那個都不可能的啦那多少?大約?我說大概加起來幾百億?這個真的很難算,我想...呃...主委,真的不好意思啊沒關係您指正尤其是受險公司他做每一件事情都要精算那假設連這個都沒有精算"},{"start":7667.611,"end":7669.232,"text":"目前來講應該都循序漸進吧那個請局長說明一下"},{"start":7698.61,"end":7723.471,"text":"我們現在還是讓他自己在15年內提計畫他要依照目標來達成那如果在這個15年內他的那個計算ICS還是不符合規定的話還是依照保險法我們會依照保險法規定來做處置好因為15年後我相信大家幾乎都不在這裡"},{"start":7725.769,"end":7731.235,"text":"15年後就像訂這個2050淨零排放當時也在這裡審議算審這個法案他2050淨零排放要他訂初期中期的"},{"start":7740.697,"end":7744.819,"text":"政府打擊詐騙,尤其是投資詐騙,越打越多那為什麼房子詐騙的帳戶數為什麼民營銀行的績效比較好,公股銀行比較差"},{"start":7767.219,"end":7779.145,"text":"我想第一個民營銀行的開戶數也多當然另外一方面他們可能在科技防詐上面也做得比較多所以我要糾正你一次這些公股行戶的帳戶數比較多對不會是民間銀行因為你像三張銀合戶它帳戶數都非常的高是一定"},{"start":7794.401,"end":7817.541,"text":"統計就是依照統計他們的絕對賬戶數比明天銀行多很多那既然多很多的情況底下公股你更有企業責任更股企業責任你防止這個詐騙為什麼公股的防止詐騙的績效太差主委要不要請他加強一下"},{"start":7820.13,"end":7844.035,"text":"統計數字上面也不完全有的公股銀行表現也超越民營銀行絕大部分都是民營銀行在前面為什麼不認真不認真我想公股本身應該都是很嚴謹的也不是說不認真那為什麼績效差呢沒關係過兩天就審預算"},{"start":7846.152,"end":7846.952,"text":"為什麼?哪些排除?那個股東的...你要講一下"},{"start":7872.995,"end":7876.538,"text":"最近金管會對名額監控或銀行大老闆不但干預那已經有事假做處分停止對不對"},{"start":7901.975,"end":7917.07,"text":"有的沒有停止對好這個我非常支持那這一部分假設財政部不但干預金控跟這個銀行決策金管會要不要查要不要處罰"},{"start":7917.931,"end":7946.559,"text":"報告 報告總召這個因為財政部是大股東那他也知道我們大股東對一些公股銀行的政策是會資基於股東的立場去做要求的這部分我們就是另案去處理跟一般民營是所以你回答了問題嘛你說大股東不當干預民間的這些法規不是用財政部喔這部分是有排除剛才局長有跟您報告就是跟財政部是你排除在哪裡"},{"start":7949.102,"end":7950.884,"text":"這個哪有排除財政部就不用遵守公司治理"},{"start":7957.779,"end":7986.852,"text":"主委 你的公職你只是在民股銀行啊沒有 他也有 但是有些部分如果是財政部基於國家的政策他需要對公股銀行做一些政策的指導那這部分是沒有在這裡面的所以你的金管會很多的金融監理法規是用財政部喔沒有很多 就是類似這種股權的可以這樣子嗎當然盡量不要 但是因為這是國內金融業的生態啦就是我們的金管會管不了財政部大股東啊"},{"start":7988.352,"end":8015.188,"text":"財政部也算是政府的部會之一嘛那他對公股的管理有他的職責了好我就有兩個事情你給我查清楚給我報告第一個財政部最近要求公股銀行拍攝詐騙廣告這個是財政部手虧伸進去嗎這個你第一個給我查必要時候派"},{"start":8016.195,"end":8025.718,"text":"財政部隊要求公股銀行進行政策性的護盤。財政部隊要求公股銀行進行政策性的護盤。財政部隊要求公股銀行進行政策性的護盤。"},{"start":8045.08,"end":8046.14,"text":"謝謝各位請回 接著請張綺樂委員黃主委"},{"start":8077.798,"end":8092.569,"text":"主委好 主委 那個今天我想專報主要是談的IFRS跟ICS的這個問題當然這個國際的這個接軌當然是至關重要而且尤其我們之前也歷經了這個產售險的他這個在疫情中的這個"},{"start":8093.69,"end":8118.09,"text":"這些問題那現在當然有新的這個會計準則的這個制度那當然今天我也看了就是說我們這個在準備面這個準備面的話其實不管是說我們未來要成立這個專案平台啦或者是逐年的要求業者進行評估啦或者是這個預留準備金、盈餘供給來因應這些事實上是這樣講"},{"start":8118.971,"end":8135.166,"text":"就是說這個當然有我們政府要協助的這個部分那其實我們真的比較關切的是說到底業者在真正在這個過程中的這個接軌甚至在我們在盤點他們有時候可能他要是真的做不到"},{"start":8135.706,"end":8161.475,"text":"或者是有問題的時候這中間就是這個有點我們公共政策講說在執行中的這個評估啦這樣子的一個觀念所以就是說這個部分到底就是說因為我們還是監管嘛其實監管會重不重啊是監管他們到底到不到位所以這個監管的這個強度力度甚至包括就是說如果真的做不到其實剛才我想曾總長也在那裡講嘛就是說這個倒是要是"},{"start":8162.415,"end":8170.286,"text":"沒有辦法到位的話我們到底有沒有什麼比較好的方法來監督這些業者如果他真的實在做不到怎麼辦"},{"start":8172.234,"end":8198.421,"text":"這個接軌是我們為了符合國際的資本或是會計的規定所做的決定那做這個決定一定都有自己國情的考慮所以有在地化措施跟過渡化措施我屢次在外報告說接軌不是讓大家過不了關而是在合理的範圍之內也努力了我們也符合國際的標準所以我們會提供合理的配套措施、過渡措施讓業者能夠漸進式的接軌"},{"start":8200.094,"end":8201.755,"text":"有跟委員報告這些都是跟工會跟不同類型的業者充分溝通之後他們覺得對他們來講他們是覺得可以做得到"},{"start":8227.148,"end":8253.246,"text":"我們才這樣子去做配套的安排好 謝謝主委好 那主委那當然今天我另外還有一個題目就是是跟比較教育有點關係因為我現在在教文委員會了這個當然這個無卡詐騙簽約拿佣金等等這些就是說我們這個校園的詐騙其實現在也越來越嚴重甚至有時候說實話就是讓學生"},{"start":8254.227,"end":8279.894,"text":"甚至自己也變受害者但是他們有時也變加害者反正就是說這個地方問題很多那我要問的問題是這樣這個財經素養雖然教育部一直在推財經素養財經素養其實說實話啦我必須直說教育部其實自己就不見得有財經素養因為我們官員對這些方向的瞭解是他們是管全部嘛所以他這個地方他其實專業是真的不足"},{"start":8280.874,"end":8297.483,"text":"所以你看我們這種調查都會發現就是逐年反而是在下降沒有像我們想像的那麼好現在我們現在這個金融理財這是很重要一件事而且國人都很在乎可是反而我們在教育端這邊反而是越來越差我直接往下看"},{"start":8298.183,"end":8325.638,"text":"那而且現在又因為主委也很清楚現在金融的這個商品又越來越多樣態也不一樣現在你看比如隨便舉個例子這個先買後付等等這些這些等等越來越多就是說其實有時候我只是說啦就是教育端那邊是跟不太上的甚至往下看喔直接往下其實這個很多這種這個調查啊或者他其實也都講得很清楚我們現在教的沒有管道不見得很好"},{"start":8327.078,"end":8334.258,"text":"內容不符實用交流方式清淨點水就是說這個當然是我就是這個最後這個問題說主委齁當然"},{"start":8335.273,"end":8358.265,"text":"金管這邊是最專業你覺得怎麼樣讓這個尤其是對於學校端的教育我們怎麼樣協力他們幫他們一把應該是這樣講因為專業在我們這邊可是他們雖然口口聲聲要求說我教育要把這個金融素養提高在教育端可是抱歉就是提不太動直接就最後一頁"},{"start":8359.938,"end":8381.013,"text":"是不是您也覺得說是不是要更把它導入得更清楚一點點深度、廣度你看像我們這邊舉個例像日本所有的高校他是把這個金融教育義務化認為說這至關重要我直白說有時候對人生而言這是他一輩子都用得到的很棒的事那這個地方諸位怎麼看呢?謝謝"},{"start":8381.913,"end":8397.943,"text":"我一直在過去這十幾年來都說金融教育是人生實現臺灣夢的road map是地圖所以這就是一個基本的素養有了這個金融教育才能對我們的人生不同的階段去做好的規劃所以我們一直在強調希望"},{"start":8398.843,"end":8398.863,"text":"委員長"},{"start":8417.296,"end":8431.494,"text":"所以有一個叫做同溫層效應Echo Chamber就是回應式你吸收的資訊都是同一類人的想法所以你外面的人給他的知識他不見得會改變他的行為跟決策所以才會有行為財務學行為經濟學的這個學門的產生那這個我們要努力"},{"start":8436.312,"end":8460.454,"text":"對,有時候甚至有這種同溫層有時候它的效應不見得是好的,因為有時候反而是一些錯誤的事情,對,一種錯誤的甚至,或者一窩蜂的,之前很多是被割韭菜的,玩什麼當沖或等等這些其實都很多問題啊,所以有時候我覺得說要更正確一點的,甚至更紮實一點的,甚至這種風險的評估要讓他們更清楚的,我覺得這個"},{"start":8461.195,"end":8461.595,"text":"接著請林楚瑩委員"},{"start":8498.934,"end":8502.003,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請黃天夢黃主委好 四位"},{"start":8505.362,"end":8528.987,"text":"是委員長主委好剛剛本席非常開心的是聽到了其實這個朝鷹委員都對於公司治理非常的關注但是我相信呢這個所謂供股行庫跟民營行庫之間的公司治理的目標應該是不太一樣的比如說這個所謂民營的當然就是為了求獲利求績效但是供股行庫之所以存在當然就是要配合政府的政策我先來念一個2021年7月份"},{"start":8532.108,"end":8548.435,"text":"的財政部的新聞稿．他說財政部．因為對於面臨部分的立委．提出公股行庫沒有盡力來服務．這個青年業．就是年輕的業者做一些紓困．所以說立法院就要求了．這個公股行庫必須依照這個正新．"},{"start":8549.455,"end":8568.722,"text":"方案紓困條例必須要好好的來執行有關於企業紓困的部分那麼包括了這個公股行戶如何來公平對待積極來辦理紓困來支持企業跟民眾資金的需求那我的言下之意就是說公股行戶面對立法院立委的要求之後"},{"start":8569.602,"end":8586.301,"text":"去要求財政部然後財政部去要求了公股、行庫來做企業紓困就是要求他們要做的比其他的民營行庫來的好那如果金管會現在介入調查請問是查大股東、財政部還是要求財政部的立法委員"},{"start":8588.018,"end":8615.516,"text":"因為剛剛您沒有辦法回答在野黨委員的質疑嘛那我現在是想到就是說不會到時候查到後來變成是立法委員被金管會給查了吧那這個其實就是棒打老虎雞吃蟲嘛公股行貨的存在不就是為了配合政府的政策嗎那很多政策又是政府要求的包括剛剛講到的打架我記得我在這個質詢台或是我坐在底下或是您現在在備詢台有關於打架"},{"start":8617.978,"end":8618.598,"text":"我是認為﹖"},{"start":8640.933,"end":8655.095,"text":"剛剛您沒有好好的去回答公股行戶的責任跟他所代表的他背後可能要來執行一些所謂的政策目標跟民營行戶追求利潤追求獲利這不一樣"},{"start":8656.056,"end":8670.961,"text":"所以大股東的職責顯然也不一樣喔主委您好像沒有回答到這個問題是我想財政部當然作為大股東他有他的公共利益在啦當然對於公股銀行他要執行這個所謂公共的政策有這個公共利益在這個地方對"},{"start":8672.181,"end":8690.867,"text":"對,所以本席提醒你在寫報告的時候還有包括不論是金管會在做金融監理的部分的時候這個部分我希望你們要釐清清楚不然報告交上來到最後會變成是一種各說各話的方式是好,接下來本席"},{"start":8691.747,"end":8711.406,"text":"要來關注的這個問題是我想這兩天大家也都在講說選舉剩下不到40天了那麼到底有哪些所謂外界外部勢力借選的部分那麼中國借選是不是出了新招而且這個新招呢不只是過去我們看到的可能影響的是旅遊啦"},{"start":8712.287,"end":8732.379,"text":"甚至於現在連虛擬貨幣都成為介入的漏洞主委我想跟您請問一下我們都知道現在虛擬的平台目前它會有一個所謂的指導的原則就是我講的它這個內部控制以及這個機構的被查金管會目前跟金融機構之間到底如果出現了大量的虛擬貨幣進入帳戶當中會有所謂的通報機制嗎?"},{"start":8737.165,"end":8738.727,"text":"我們知道其實如果跟洗錢防治法來講的話就是只要"},{"start":8756.127,"end":8785.286,"text":"在銀行端我們有所謂的法定貨幣就包括這些貨幣有大額的進出的時候會通報但是現在如果虛擬貨幣在平台當中有異常的大筆的交易出現的時候因為它沒有變現成法定貨幣顯然它就變成了是一個通報上面的漏洞媒體的報導的質疑是有可能存在但卻無法監理是這樣嗎"},{"start":8786.307,"end":8797.164,"text":"不過他們要成為我們的這個都要去簽這個防止洗錢的聲明書在交易過程中都要做好防止洗錢的工作"},{"start":8797.884,"end":8820.297,"text":"所以他們現在是屬於一種自律的狀態但是包括金管會的檢察局或相關單位其實是無法直接的去了解到又或者是說必須要有檢調單位已經有了解他已經變成是一個被查或是調查中的案件才會被曝光嗎主委"},{"start":8820.777,"end":8849.229,"text":"報告委員防治洗錢法是責成金管會作為虛擬資產由投資這部分的主管機關是所以他們如果違法就違反洗錢防治法局長你可以補充沒有關係對報告委員其實剛剛委員關心的就是不管是大通報或者是可疑交易的通報目前就是VSP也就是虛擬資產的這個平台他都要適用是"},{"start":8850.202,"end":8872.12,"text":"那麼所以說以目前現階段來講他雖然適用但是如果他只是在交應該是說交易的一個過程當中那他並沒有他只是從A匯到BB匯到C他只是在這樣的流轉但是都在交易平台當中的時候我們會發現他的大額的交易的產生嗎?"},{"start":8874.403,"end":8892.105,"text":"報告委員因為大額的部分的話基本上是現金所以其實現在我們的了解實務上的了解是還是會有一些平台他會有收現金現金的法幣那如果他有這樣子的行為的時候他還是要做大額通報"},{"start":8893.166,"end":8906.038,"text":"然後另外一個就是可疑交易的移轉因為可疑交易其實是沒有金額門檻的所以如果一旦是發現可疑交易就像剛剛委員說的從A的錢包到B的錢包不管怎麼樣只要覺得符合可疑的樣態照理說VSP都應該要做申報"},{"start":8914.905,"end":8941.543,"text":"因為現在就是說我們在洗錢防治法當中有一個金額的限制就是台幣50萬它就必須要申報或是作為一個就是要被呈現出來但是虛擬貨幣當中因為它並沒有現在這樣的一個數額所以也可能是平台自己來做規定包括像我們現在就沒有規定說剛剛我們提到的所謂什麼樣算大額"},{"start":8944.625,"end":8960.801,"text":"本同於臺幣多少嗎或是什麼可能連這些規定跟規範都相對的模糊那會變成是只是平台業者我用自律的方式來處理那麼這就會變成是好像我們認為有在管理"},{"start":8961.161,"end":8985.695,"text":"但是其實它依舊是有漏洞那麼我建議金管會在這個部分當然選舉只剩下不到40天了在這樣的過程當中也有媒體提出了這樣的質疑而且我們也認為其實在經過了解之後它確實是有可能成為借選的管道甚至於它有可能是會選的一個管道的時候是不是建議金管會要跟相關的單位把這樣的"},{"start":8986.857,"end":8990.381,"text":"我們今日登記發言的委員經以詢問現在處理臨時提案一案請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":9012.18,"end":9029.221,"text":"臨時提案第一案,臺灣《洗錢防治法》於2021年正式將虛擬通貨平台以及交易業務事業納入洗錢防治範疇,然而觀察現行虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防治洗錢及打擊資控辦法,"},{"start":9030.582,"end":9050.82,"text":"僅於第11條針對法定貨幣之現金交易金額．要求各交易平台向法務部調查局申報．準此．對交互間以虛擬貨幣形式流通之情形．缺乏法規訂定申報標準．談論由各交易平台自律訂定規範．恐造成洗錢防治之缺漏．"},{"start":9051.4,"end":9065.41,"text":"原要求金融監督管理委員會嚴議．就虛擬貨幣間之交易形式．訂定洗錢防治及大額通報標準．並於2個月內提交書面報告提案人林楚英 郭國文 張嘉斌 宣讀完畢好 這個金管會遵照辦理"},{"start":9080.546,"end":9083.493,"text":"通過本次會議做如下的決定"},{"start":9084.554,"end":9107.653,"text":"一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請金管會於一周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定委員審發會羅明才、高嘉瑜所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請金管會以書面答覆之"},{"start":9112.842,"end":9127.54,"text":"本日會議議程已進行完畢．堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢．一併列入記錄刊登公報．並請議事人員協助處理好謝謝各位散會跟委員會報告我們首領中有那個所得稅法第17條的協商謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}